KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings!

[piecar]

King Neptunes is not paying me almost 8,000 GBP.

I read the Terms & Conditions at King Neptunes website and the only video pokers on the list of excluded games were Aces video poker and jacks or better video poker. Deuces Wild was NOT on the list of excluded games in regards to the bonus money.

I deposited and played on April 1st in the evening.

I played slots, cyber stud poker, tri card poker, and deuces wild video poker.

They sent me an email that they changed their terms at midnight on March 31st.

Here is a copy of the email they sent me:


Hello xxxxxx

We carried out a thorough investigation to ensure, like we also do, that we deliver what we promise. When you claim a welcome/sign up bonus, you are advised to read the Terms & Conditions of that bonus when you claim it. We never change the Terms & Conditions of any promotion without advising our customers accordingly. We can not notify would-be customers, because we do not know who they are if they have not registered yet. The new Terms & Conditions took effect on March 31 at midnight; you registered, made your first deposit and claimed your bonus in the evening of April 1. It was your responsibility to read the Terms & Conditions that govern the 200 bonus when you claimed the bonus.

You played on Deuces Wild 10 Play Power Poker, a restricted game, with the 200 welcome bonus you claimed, before you played on any other games, including any appropriate games. Since you accumulated winnings with your game play on an excluded game, these winnings have been deemed null and void. Because you continued to play with these void credits to accumulate your additional winnings, all of your winnings have been deemed null and void. We have removed your totaled 7,794 in winnings from your withdrawal and your account balance based on our terms and conditions for the welcome bonus.

We are sorry this is not the answer you wish to hear.

You will notice that we copied eCOGRA on this issue. We have earned our reputation by always conducting our business ethically and with integrity. We are also strong advocates for responsible and regulated gaming; were one of the 1st casino group's to earn the eCOGRA Seal of approval (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) and have received numerous independent awards.

Regards

xxxxxx


I told them, "Look, I saw different terms and I played by the rules so why are you doing this to me?!?"

I had more than 8000 GBP in my account and they reduced my balance to ZERO. I don't know if what they are saying about the Deuces Wild is true or not; all I remember is that I before I played only Aces and Jacks or Better video pokers were excluded, but deuces wild was okay.

The only thing I am guilty of is an honest mistake.

Even if they are right and they changed terms hours before I deposited and played, is it right to just void my winnings? Where is the goodwill? Someone wins big at your casino and you just decide just not to pay them?

King Neptunes told me that they informed eCogra of the situation. I haven't heard anything from eCogra so I assume that they are siding with King Neptunes. But I think eCogra is a sham anyway, especially after reading all of the complaints against them in the online forums...

If anyone can help me with this, I could sure use the help.

 

[ewhitaker]

This does not seem right at all!

I have played in many online casinos with welcome bonuses and never heard anything like this!

Even if Deuces Power Poker was an excluded game, they could have told you that you can't make a withdrawl until you have met the terms meaning you would have had to wager more on slots or other included games. Your winnings should NEVER have been deemed null and void!

Bit of advice to anyone that plays casinos with bonuses. Don't apply for the bonus until you have run out of your own money first. That way if you win right away, you can withdraw your winnings with no worries on bonus conditions.

 

[Boomx2Brian]

Well I will be sure not to play there.

 

[kenneth2816]

piecar:

I am assuming the e-mail you posted was perhaps from a later exchange with the casino since no mention was made of your deposit. Did you get your deposit refunded?

Secondly, you are technically bound by T&C on the date you actually deposit. There can be no possible way the casino COULD know that you were (as you say) unaware of T&C changes overnight.

Thirdly, you can verify ALL play via PlayCheck. I am confident you will find you DID play exactly as they say you did, thus validating the fact that your "restricted" winnings gave you an accumulated pot to further play NON restricted games.

If it were me, and I did get the deposit refunded, I would try to play it through again. Honest mistake or not, the casino is well within its bounds, and this particular group enjoys a very solid rep for being above board, IMHO. I personally deposited $100 at their sister casino, got the matching bonus, and cashed out a very sizeable win with zero problem.

My apologies if this reply seems unduly harsh to you.

 

[Vesuvio]

Even if they are right and they changed terms hours before I deposited and played, is it right to just void my winnings? Where is the goodwill? Someone wins big at your casino and you just decide just not to pay them?

Unfortunately the casino will almost certainly get away with this. eCOGRA will rule in their favour if the casino's actions are even vaguely covered in the terms and conditions (all the way to accepting the cover-all "bonus abuse" terms). To be fair to King Neptunes, though, the terms are pretty clear here (this is another trap for players to watch out for - at many casinos it's fine to play any games but they just don't count to the wr):

If you play any of the restricted games, which subsequently results in winnings, this play will not fulfill/complete the play through conditions. These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group.

That said, they have the discretion not to remove your winnings and in the light of the fact you played only hours after the terms changed I definitely think they should display some good will by restoring your balance and asking you to complete wagering if you haven't already.

Failing that, it'd be worth trying to confirm exactly when they did change the terms (perhaps some other player noticed?) - casinos often don't do this immediately and it's also possible your web browser didn't load the updated page.

 

[nowinsituation]

You are asking for help at the wrong place

King Neptunes is not paying me almost 8,000 GBP.

I read the Terms & Conditions at King Neptunes website and the only video pokers on the list of excluded games were Aces video poker and jacks or better video poker. Deuces Wild was NOT on the list of excluded games in regards to the bonus money.

I deposited and played on April 1st in the evening.

I played slots, cyber stud poker, tri card poker, and deuces wild video poker.

They sent me an email that they changed their terms at midnight on March 31st.

Here is a copy of the email they sent me:


Hello xxxxxx

We carried out a thorough investigation to ensure, like we also do, that we deliver what we promise. When you claim a welcome/sign up bonus, you are advised to read the Terms & Conditions of that bonus when you claim it. We never change the Terms & Conditions of any promotion without advising our customers accordingly. We can not notify would-be customers, because we do not know who they are if they have not registered yet. The new Terms & Conditions took effect on March 31 at midnight; you registered, made your first deposit and claimed your bonus in the evening of April 1. It was your responsibility to read the Terms & Conditions that govern the 200 bonus when you claimed the bonus.

You played on Deuces Wild 10 Play Power Poker, a restricted game, with the 200 welcome bonus you claimed, before you played on any other games, including any appropriate games. Since you accumulated winnings with your game play on an excluded game, these winnings have been deemed null and void. Because you continued to play with these void credits to accumulate your additional winnings, all of your winnings have been deemed null and void. We have removed your totaled 7,794 in winnings from your withdrawal and your account balance based on our terms and conditions for the welcome bonus.

We are sorry this is not the answer you wish to hear.

You will notice that we copied eCOGRA on this issue. We have earned our reputation by always conducting our business ethically and with integrity. We are also strong advocates for responsible and regulated gaming; were one of the 1st casino group's to earn the eCOGRA Seal of approval (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) and have received numerous independent awards.

Regards

xxxxxx


I told them, "Look, I saw different terms and I played by the rules so why are you doing this to me?!?"

I had more than 8000 GBP in my account and they reduced my balance to ZERO. I don't know if what they are saying about the Deuces Wild is true or not; all I remember is that I before I played only Aces and Jacks or Better video pokers were excluded, but deuces wild was okay.

The only thing I am guilty of is an honest mistake.

Even if they are right and they changed terms hours before I deposited and played, is it right to just void my winnings? Where is the goodwill? Someone wins big at your casino and you just decide just not to pay them?

King Neptunes told me that they informed eCogra of the situation. I haven't heard anything from eCogra so I assume that they are siding with King Neptunes. But I think eCogra is a sham anyway, especially after reading all of the complaints against them in the online forums...

If anyone can help me with this, I could sure use the help.

I know where you are coming from. You should get paid! The only reason they put terms in there is so they dont have to pay you. You are asking for help at the wrong place if your asking the guy that runs this place because he has casinos out there that are screwing people as well. He may say and make it look like he is trying to help but trust me he is not on any of us players side he is one of them in Descries. I have casinos over the Internet that owe me over $200,000.00. The best Casinos to play at are the ones that say they will pay the same day. Spanish Luck Casino pays just go talk to Tex and tell him COS**** sent you he will take good care of you. Black Dog Casino is another that will pay you the same day. The Casinos that have to hold your withdraws for days, do not trust them. I am thinking about opening up a web site to help people and advise them of what to look for. I have lost over a 1/2 million over the Internet and have a lot of experience. I dont plan on owning any of them and you dam sure cant trust someone that is playing both sides. I mean look at the picture of the meister, that tells everything.

 

[Pinababy69]

Black Dog? Spanish Luck? Man, you must be smoking some good shit in Corpus Christi there bud, lol.

I mean look at the picture of the meister, that tells everything.

And whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, I don't have a clue. Make sure you give me a link to this website you're going to open, I'm always up for some comic relief.

Edited to add that an attitude like you're displaying sure isn't gonna help the original poster in any way. Piecar, have you PM'd the Trident rep here and explained the situation? Not sure if it will do any good, but it's certainly worth a try. God, I'm still shaking my head at this guy, what a great post, ha ha ha.

 

[Vesuvio]

You are asking for help at the wrong place if your asking the guy that runs this place because he has casinos out there that are screwing people as well.

Nowinsituation - don't derail a thread with absurd accusations. You'll just be rightly banned, but unfortunately in the mean time you're reducing the OP's chances of seeing any of his winnings.

 

[elscrabinda]

It really pains me to see King Neptunes in this forum and not the positive one. I've only ever had good experiences with them and to see them pulling this kind of stunt is a real shame.

Of course they're allowed to do it. I'm sure they've covered themselves well enough with their terms but for a group of this calibre sticking to terms should not be the issue. Trust is whats important and EXCLUDING games has no other purpose but to be able to confiscate winnings later. RESTRICT them, fine but do not exclude them unless you are actively picking a fight. The games he played did not have a player edge. He gained no advantage from playing them and to confiscate winnings on these grounds is pathetic.

 

[GemG7]

I know where you are coming from. You should get paid! The only reason they put terms in there is so they dont have to pay you. You are asking for help at the wrong place if your asking the guy that runs this place because he has casinos out there that are screwing people as well. He may say and make it look like he is trying to help but trust me he is not on any of us players side he is one of them in Descries. I have casinos over the Internet that owe me over $200,000.00. The best Casinos to play at are the ones that say they will pay the same day. Spanish Luck Casino pays just go talk to Tex and tell him COS48945 sent you he will take good care of you. Black Dog Casino is another that will pay you the same day. The Casinos that have to hold your withdraws for days, do not trust them. I am thinking about opening up a web site to help people and advise them of what to look for. I have lost over a 1/2 million over the Internet and have a lot of experience. I dont plan on owning any of them and you dam sure cant trust someone that is playing both sides. I mean look at the picture of the meister, that tells everything.

 

[Slotster!]

It really pains me to see King Neptunes in this forum and not the positive one. I've only ever had good experiences with them and to see them pulling this kind of stunt is a real shame.

Of course they're allowed to do it. I'm sure they've covered themselves well enough with their terms but for a group of this calibre sticking to terms should not be the issue. Trust is whats important and EXCLUDING games has no other purpose but to be able to confiscate winnings later. RESTRICT them, fine but do not exclude them unless you are actively picking a fight. The games he played did not have a player edge. He gained no advantage from playing them and to confiscate winnings on these grounds is pathetic.

Well put... The whole March 31st thing, and the exclusion/confiscation... They may well not be doing anything 'rogue', but you just wouldn't play there, would you... Not when you know you wouldn't get this hassle elsewhere.

 

[elscrabinda]

Well put... The whole March 31st thing, and the exclusion/confiscation... They may well not be doing anything 'rogue', but you just wouldn't play there, would you... Not when you know you wouldn't get this hassle elsewhere.

But this is why its such a shame. We're rapidly running out of places where you CAN play and know you won't get hassle. I considered King Neptunes to be pretty much the best group out there and if trust is lost in them then it is pretty serious industry wide

 

[Sodax77]

....the fact you played only hours after the terms changed I definitely think they should display some good will by restoring your balance and asking you to complete wagering if you haven't already...

Exactly!

King Neptune's / Trident Entertainment Group have a very good reputation, and i am suprised to see this complaint.

But if they don't know anything about "good will" or they don't offer any solution,
or/and they will start fighting with eCogra rolleyes: ), etc.
Then i will say goodbye to their group

 

[mikepipe]

Thats fantastic!

I know where you are coming from. You should get paid! The only reason they put terms in there is so they dont have to pay you. You are asking for help at the wrong place if your asking the guy that runs this place because he has casinos out there that are screwing people as well. He may say and make it look like he is trying to help but trust me he is not on any of us players side he is one of them in Descries. I have casinos over the Internet that owe me over $200,000.00. The best Casinos to play at are the ones that say they will pay the same day. Spanish Luck Casino pays just go talk to Tex and tell him COS48945 sent you he will take good care of you. Black Dog Casino is another that will pay you the same day. The Casinos that have to hold your withdraws for days, do not trust them. I am thinking about opening up a web site to help people and advise them of what to look for. I have lost over a 1/2 million over the Internet and have a lot of experience. I dont plan on owning any of them and you dam sure cant trust someone that is playing both sides. I mean look at the picture of the meister, that tells everything.

what do your problems have to do with his not getting the winning?
Maybe you are a big fish in the casino world - but why dont ou use your sharp teeth in helping this guy?
I bet my next 5 scatters win that this was your last post here

 

[maxlevine]

You may look up Bonus offers and Terms & Conditions to compare with other casinos before deciding to play but once you've decided to deposit, you must return on their site and c&p the rules; or at the very least, make sure nothing has changed. Based on the email, you have deposited on the evening of April 1st while rules were changed at midnight on March 31st. That's the next day. Promotions don't last forever and rules may change. I could go to a land-based casino and hear of a promotion without using it. If the following day, I return to use it but the offer is not valid anymore or the rules pertaining that offer would differ, what exactly would their obligations be? Whose responsibility is it?

In the case of King Neptunes, to claim the bonus you have to return to the website and enter a code. You had the opportunity to look up the rules then.

"Wagering requirements and game exclusions apply according to the date you claim your bonus and not the date you registered at the casino."

Although this does not apply to you since you've registered and deposited the same day, it is written to avoid such confusion. You have to abide by the rules stated at the moment you make your deposit.

"If you play any of the restricted games, which subsequently results in winnings, this play will not fulfill/complete the play through conditions. These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group." (my emphasis)

Have you won more than $8,000 playing Deuces Wild and other restricted games? If not, your account balance shouldn't go down to zero.

Slotster and Elscrabinda, the casino doesn't have to give bonuses. And when they do, they don't have to be the most generous. They can put up the rules they want without being considered rogue. And I would play there or anywhere else I know I will get paid if I follow the rules. 32Red had the worst initial deposit bonus and rules (they've improved on it now) and no one would claim this was a rogue operation. They've also changed their minimum wagering on Club Rouge monthly bonus (I believe it was $3600; now at $5000). Could I withdraw claiming the previous rules? You weren't allowed to play any Progressive slots before the minimum requirements were fulfilled; I don't see that in their T&Cs anymore but what if they had modified their rules the other way around and I would have won a jackpot in a Progressive? Would it be fair to give it to me considering I broke their rules? Again, what would be reasonable? 24 hours? 48 hours? 7 days? Who decides? Sorry guys but this is a question of opinion on the generosity of a bonus and its rules, not of roguedom behaviour. If you don't like the T&Cs, don't use the bonus. Piecar could get something back as an exception.

Hey look! My post is pro-casino. I must be chummy with the operator

I know this is disappointing, Piecar. But despite what the one hostile poster wrote, Bryan Bailey will give it a shot if you file a PAB. But your first step should be to PM the Trident rep and discuss the matter with him, as Pinababy has suggested. Avoid antagonism and see if you couldn't come up with a settlement you'd be happy with.

Good luck.

Max

 

[jenn1381]

I've never really understood the whole restricted and excluded games. Perhaps I don't understand because I really only play slots for real funds, and poker for free. I'm not a big video poker fan, or any table game fan. Does the player have an advantage playing these games? Maybe someone can enlighten me

That being said, to me, changing conditions and not letting the players know shouldn't be allowed. I completely agree that it's the players responsibility to read the T&C's prior to playing any games, but it seems to me that these T&C's will just change tomorrow anyways! What if you were to deposit on March 15th, play for a bit.. go to bed, sleep 8 hours.. get up, and play some more. But the T&C's changed overnight, and now video poker is excluded. Which T&C's are you bound by? The current ones? Do we need to read them before ANY session in which we've claim a bonus, all the time?! I read them once and assume they will still be the same. Maybe I need to change that to avoid getting screwed.

I agree that this casino should show some class and good faith here. Even if they give back the winnings and place a WR on them on included games. To me, taking away everything should be nothing short of illegal. I guess Casino's rule though, and can do whatever they please.

 

[tennis_balls]

This situation doesn't surprise me at all. I don't know why Neptune's even offers a bonus since their terms and exclusions are so many and varied.

These guys must really take care of the affiliates given the amount of praise they receive here.

 

[maxlevine]

...These guys must really take care of the affiliates given the amount of praise they receive here.

I would like to point out that I am not an affiliate of Trident group and that I've only played once at their casinos. Don't need personal benefits to be able to see that they haven't done anything wrong. Based on your reasoning, one would assume that all opinions are biased. Including yours.

Max

 

[jetset]

Sensible posts - both of them, Max.

This is a reputable group with a fair and professional management, and as we have all so frequently commented, the T&Cs in force at the time of deposit and wager are those that count.

 

[thelawnet]

This is a reputable group with a fair and professional management, and as we have all so frequently commented, the T&Cs in force at the time of deposit and wager are those that count.

This is not really all that fair and professional now though is it.

The 'if you play any of these games we will confiscate all your money' clause is a particularly egregious one, and one that most reputable casinos steer well clear of.

Clearly he should have read the terms when he signed up, but you can't help feeling that this situation would not have arisen at a truly regulated and customer-focused casino such as Ladbrokes.

It is very sad when casinos feel they can operate an 'oops, you made a mistake, now all your money belongs to us HA HA HA' policy.

Certainly it is not exactly encouraging for this player to go back in the future, but I believe the decision has been made on a callous 'this player is unlikely to make us that much in profit', so better just seize his winnings.

Players make mistakes, and it is a mark of a truly reputable, fair and professional group that they do not exploit them.

Yes it costs money for the casino not to enforce every clause and subclause to their letter, but through such decisions reputations are built.

 

[Macgyver]

I read the Terms & Conditions at King Neptunes website and the only video pokers on the list of excluded games were Aces video poker and jacks or better video poker. Deuces Wild was NOT on the list of excluded games in regards to the bonus money.

When did the OP read these T&C? Some people are assuming it was the night before the deposit was made.

I deposited and played on April 1st in the evening.

I played slots, cyber stud poker, tri card poker, and deuces wild video poker.

They sent me an email that they changed their terms at midnight on March 31st.

I told them, "Look, I saw different terms and I played by the rules so why are you doing this to me?!?"

I had more than 8000 GBP in my account and they reduced my balance to ZERO. I don't know if what they are saying about the Deuces Wild is true or not; all I remember is that I before I played only Aces and Jacks or Better video pokers were excluded, but deuces wild was okay.

The only thing I am guilty of is an honest mistake.

Even if they are right and they changed terms hours before I deposited and played, is it right to just void my winnings? Where is the goodwill? Someone wins big at your casino and you just decide just not to pay them?

King Neptunes told me that they informed eCogra of the situation. I haven't heard anything from eCogra so I assume that they are siding with King Neptunes. But I think eCogra is a sham anyway, especially after reading all of the complaints against them in the online forums...

If anyone can help me with this, I could sure use the help.

What isn't said here is if King Neptune's refunded the player their original deposit or left it in the account for them to play accepted games. If the deposit is left in the account, or even refunded for that matter, what's wrong with that?

Everyone jumps on a casino to follow their T&C, but when a player doesn't follow it, you want the casino to demonstrate "goodwill" and let the player keep winnings?

It's a two-way street here, people, where both parties have to follow the T&C at the time money is deposited and a bonus is given. If the player doesn't have hard proof (a screenshot) of the T&C at the time they deposited, then this should be chalked up as a lesson learned.

Yes it costs money for the casino not to enforce every clause and subclause to their letter, but through such decisions reputations are built.

And if the casino doesn't enforce their T&C, then they're hit with abusers and scammers who know they can take advantage of the casino. I don't think any casino wants that type of "reputation."

 

[kenneth2816]

I have lost over a 1/2 million over the Internet and have a lot of experience.

Forgive me, but I don't see that this actually qualifies you for much except as an example of someone who should NOT gamble.

 

[Slotster!]

Yes it costs money for the casino not to enforce every clause and subclause to their letter, but through such decisions reputations are built.

I agree... Yes, it seems the player didn't adhere to the T&C's exactly, but it's exactly as has been mentioned before. Any casino that includes these clauses would be on my steer clear list. By all means ensure additional wagering requirements or whatever, but to confiscate all winnings is just - well - a bit rubbish and not what I'd want from a casino.

I never read T&C's nearly as thoroughly as I should, but then again I only play at outfits I know won't try and trip me up the minute I click on a game that, in their opinion, I shouldn't.

Just another example of why bonuses should be awarded to loyal, proven players - with no strings... This stupid scenario we have online is absurd, and serious ammunition for the H.R 4777 supporters. Let's face it, without the knowledge a lot of us have of this online business, on the surface this looks like yet another example of why it's all bad...

32RED plopped a bonus in my account recently to say 'congratulations' for something that happened in my life a few weeks ago. It said on the message, and I quote, "It's yours to cash out and buy something for the family, or spin and win - it's up to you!"... and people wonder why for a lot of online players - they're becoming almost exclusive.

In summary - the guy didn't follow the T&C's, and hence probably deserves what's happened. In reality, and looking at the bigger picture, this makes the casino look bad. End of story...

Be interested to see the casino's response/opinion on this one!

 

[kreome]

Maxlevine, you can't pitch a bitch right now and it is like that for I think couple of weeks because the Meister is on the road and it says that you may use the board for complaints so I guess that what Picar did.

Also the player did not say they changed the terms on the 31 midnight he said that the casino told him that the terms were changed on the 31 of april.

The question is what do they call 31 midnight is it at midnight of 31 which means the first day of april actually and then the player had less than 24 hrs to see the new terms or maybe the night of the 30th


The casino says "we reserve the right..." why do they use the reserve the right on a player that play deuces wild, slots and other games with a substantial house edge and indicate excatly what were the terms before with details, while the player also declare "I saw the old terms which were hours before"

The question is not if they can not pay, of course they can because this Picar did not fulfilled the terms or atleast the new terms, the question is why to reserve the right with him ?????

I think I know why , why ? because 8000 GBP is a lot of money for everyone, and why to pay if you can just not pay leaving the player with nothing. Did this player do something so bad playing Deuces wild ? Hell no!!! but these were the terms at that time.

I think Bryan can help because they are reputable microgaming group of casinos.

 

[paul02085]

nowinsituation said,
"You are asking for help at the wrong place if your asking the guy that runs this place because he has casinos out there that are screwing people as well. He may say and make it look like he is trying to help but trust me he is not on any of us players side he is one of them in Descries."

I am assuming this is directed at Casinomeister. If so, you sir are a jackass who hasnt got a clue. Who the hell are you to come on here spouting bs like that?

I am sorry but reading crap like this chaps my ass after all of the things the meister has done to help people work things out with the casinos not to mention the charitable acts like spearheading (along with spearmaster) the effort that led to a $111k donation for victims of the tsunami.

Dont come here trying to say meister is a phony, it wont wash.

 

[The Dude]

King Neptunes is not paying me almost 8,000 GBP...

Sorry to hear of this, but it's clear that you didn't follow the terms and conditions: The new Terms & Conditions took effect on March 31 at midnight; you registered, made your first deposit and claimed your bonus in the evening of April 1. It was your responsibility to read the Terms & Conditions that govern the £200 bonus when you claimed the bonus.

You wagered and won on games that were not to be played with the bonus. It may seem harsh, but that's the way it goes when you play bonus funds on non-playable games. There is no way in hell anyone should be dissing this casino just because they stick by the rules. If they were to say, "okay go ahead - we'll make an exception for you," then everyone and their brother would chime in and say "what about me? I played on the disallowed games as well!" Run a business like that, and you'll be run into the ground.

These guys must really take care of the affiliates given the amount of praise they receive here.

I think you are way off base on that comment. The Trident Lounge Group is an outstanding example of how casinos ought to be run. They are right up there with 32Red. You should be thankful that you have operators like Micki in this business. To insulate that they only get praised by affiliates who get paid well -- well you just lost points in my book. Besides, most affiliates are players as well. That's something to consider.

I know where you are coming from. You should get paid! The only reason they put terms in there is so they don’t have to pay you. You are asking for help at the wrong place if your asking the guy that runs this place because he has casinos out there that are screwing people as well. He may say and make it look like he is trying to help but trust me he is not on any of us players side he is one of them in Descries. I have casinos over the Internet that owe me over $200,000.00. The best Casinos to play at are the ones that say they will pay the same day. Spanish Luck Casino pays just go talk to Tex and tell him COS**** sent you he will take good care of you. Black Dog Casino is another that will pay you the same day. The Casinos that have to hold your withdraws for days, do not trust them. I am thinking about opening up a web site to help people and advise them of what to look for. I have lost over a 1/2 million over the Internet and have a lot of experience. I don’t plan on owning any of them and you dam sure cant trust someone that is playing both sides. I mean look at the picture of the meister, that tells everything.

How much glue did you sniff before making that post? Is COS**** your affiliate code? What a dweeb!

 

[Slotster!]

CM - What's your opinion on this clause in general for excluded games, and the resulting removal of ALL winnings?

As I've said a couple of times, I totally understand the casino are within their rights to do this - but what's your opinion on this sort of practice generally?

You mention they're right up there with 32RED... Can you ever imagine Ed and Pat and co pulling this sort of hard line with a player, for playing a version of video poker that they shouldn't.

I understand it's a mute point - but I'd be interested to see exactly HOW much was played at the excluded game.

 

[thelawnet]

Sorry to hear of this, but it's clear that you didn't follow the terms and conditions: The new Terms & Conditions took effect on March 31 at midnight; you registered, made your first deposit and claimed your bonus in the evening of April 1. It was your responsibility to read the Terms & Conditions that govern the 200 bonus when you claimed the bonus.

You wagered and won on games that were not to be played with the bonus. It may seem harsh, but that's the way it goes when you play bonus funds on non-playable games. There is no way in hell anyone should be dissing this casino just because they stick by the rules. If they were to say, "okay go ahead - we'll make an exception for you," then everyone and their brother would chime in and say "what about me? I played on the disallowed games as well!" Run a business like that, and you'll be run into the ground.

Well that's not really true.

They say " These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group. ". [ if you play the excluded games]

They basically say they can determine whether they will void your winnings *at their discretion*. In this case it seems that the player signed u a few hours after they had changed their terms and conditions, and he was not aware that the site had changed since he read the site. This would seem to me like a good case to use 'discretion', as there are extenuating circumstances. The player behaved honestly, he just erred in not checking the terms again at the time he made the deposit.

This is hardly setting a precedent: the terms had only just been changed, the terms already say the casino will 'use its discretion'.

And to suggest that you will be run into the ground if you don't confiscate people's winnings for playing certain games is absurd: pretty much every other online casino manages without such a term.

To say "There is no way in hell anyone should be dissing this casino just because they stick by the rules." is just wrong. People are entitled to diss the casino for taking the harsh line rather than using 'discretion'. Just the same as people criticise certain banks (e.g., Capital One, MBNA) for being strict with their rules when there are extenuating circumstances, I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise a casino for doing something similar. There are plenty of cases where the business might be in the right, but it makes the decision to go with the customer, and quite rightly those businesses are popular with the public.

 

[Vesuvio]

You wagered and won on games that were not to be played with the bonus. It may seem harsh, but that's the way it goes when you play bonus funds on non-playable games. There is no way in hell anyone should be dissing this casino just because they stick by the rules. If they were to say, "okay go ahead - we'll make an exception for you," then everyone and their brother would chime in and say "what about me? I played on the disallowed games as well!" Run a business like that, and you'll be run into the ground.

I think that's a bit of an overstatement. People are only suggesting good will could be shown here because the player's obviously going by the terms and conditions that were there a few hours before he started playing. He clearly had no intention of playing disallowed games but got caught out. £8000's a lot to pay for an honest mistake.

A second issue is whether it's reasonable to have an "any play whatsoever on disallowed games voids the bonus" clause. It's debatable, but until recently it's only been rogue or borderline casinos that have had such a term. Any clause that makes it possible to forfeit winnings for a mistake in meeting often complex wagering conditions is a bad thing (especially around the dates casinos change terms). It's sad for the industry to see otherwise reputable casino groups adopting such terms.

Mathematically it's not really justified, either. Any play on disallowed games will cost the player money while not helping to meet the wr. The argument that you can use the funds to aggressively build up a big balance is negated by the fact you can do that pretty much as well by playing aggressively with the allowed games.

p.s. excuse the repetition as I wrote this before seeing thelawnet's post

 

[nafanny29]

Strictly according to the T&Cs on 1st April the player gets 0.00. But its uncanny that a player deposits and plays a game that was ok the day before and wins quite a substantial sum.

coincidence... maybe but I smell a rat here!!

 

[Slotster!]

I don't smell a rat as such, just think if all the facts are as they are represented here - it's a real shame for the player, and poor show from a casino previously held in high regard.

I agree there are times for sticking hard and fast to the rules - this isn't one of them imho; based on the info presented to date.

If there's nothing we're missing - the casino could do themselves an awful lot of good here, without being wide open to bonus abuse.

 

[piecar]

King Neptunes did return my deposit. And since I played Deuces Wild first, ALL of my winnings were deemed 'null & void' per King Neptunes discretion.

Look, I admitted that I made an honest mistake. I looked at the terms on March 31st in the evening and deposited and played on April 1st in the evening without re-checking the terms. This is not the issue here.

I am an honest person and an honest player.

What I am looking for here is King Neptunes to reconsider their decision on their term, "...these [excluded game] winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group."

Again, I "looked" on March 31st and "leapt" on April 1st. I was hoping for a little more leeway from Trident.

But you know, as stated earlier in this thread, King Neptunes is a reputable group with a fair and professional management. So I was hoping after ten or so e-mails back and forth between them and me that a positive situation would emerge.

Also keep in mind that I did not breach the old terms (the terms that I saw) in any way. If I had breached those terms I certainly would not be posting on this board.

Thanks.

 

[GOCC]

What I dont understand and have thought this for a while with the ever changing world of online casinos is WHY isnt there a central organisation, Maybe Casinomeister or ecogra more likely, that watchdogs these T&C changes.

OK, casinos change there T&Cs, thats fluly acceptable, but who says they were diplayed this way on their site.

If someone got an email from a casino to say we have changed our T&Cs, they went to the site and observed the changes, once observed then these changes become witnessed.

Its OK a casino saying we changed them at blah blah, but were they reported like this on the site. You cant say to me oh yes they must have been because if this is the case, why do people advise taking screen shots of T&Cs

 

[The Dude]

CM - What's your opinion on this clause in general for excluded games, and the resulting removal of ALL winnings?

It's something that we have to live with as long as we have bonuses. If one plays excluded games and generates winnings that generates additional winnings, even on included games, then the winnings should be voided. These are common bonus rules that are omnipresent.

You mention they're right up there with 32RED... Can you ever imagine Ed and Pat and co pulling this sort of hard line with a player, for playing a version of video poker that they shouldn't.

If they generated winnings that were played out as well, then yes. And I don't think it was so hard-lined - it's just an unfortunate incident. No one likes to see this happen - but it happens.

People are only suggesting good will could be shown here because the player's obviously going by the terms and conditions that were there a few hours before he started playing. He clearly had no intention of playing disallowed games but got caught out. 8000's a lot to pay for an honest mistake.

Perhaps there would have been more "good will" allotted here if this was not a new player. They don't know her, didn't know her intentions, and deal with player bonus issues on a daily basis. It's not fair to surmise that this happened merely a few hours past midnight, because it didn't.

If this was your casino, how would have you dealt with this? Would you let it slide knowing that you would be setting a precedent that may jeopardize you and your employees business? Or stick to your T&Cs?

 

[chuchu59]

King Neptunes is not paying me almost 8,000 GBP.

I read the Terms & Conditions at King Neptunes website and the only video pokers on the list of excluded games were Aces video poker and jacks or better video poker. Deuces Wild was NOT on the list of excluded games in regards to the bonus money.

I deposited and played on April 1st in the evening.

I played slots, cyber stud poker, tri card poker, and deuces wild video poker.

They sent me an email that they changed their terms at midnight on March 31st.

Here is a copy of the email they sent me:


Hello xxxxxx

We carried out a thorough investigation to ensure, like we also do, that we deliver what we promise. When you claim a welcome/sign up bonus, you are advised to read the Terms & Conditions of that bonus when you claim it. We never change the Terms & Conditions of any promotion without advising our customers accordingly. We can not notify would-be customers, because we do not know who they are if they have not registered yet. The new Terms & Conditions took effect on March 31 at midnight; you registered, made your first deposit and claimed your bonus in the evening of April 1. It was your responsibility to read the Terms & Conditions that govern the 200 bonus when you claimed the bonus.

You played on Deuces Wild 10 Play Power Poker, a restricted game, with the 200 welcome bonus you claimed, before you played on any other games, including any appropriate games. Since you accumulated winnings with your game play on an excluded game, these winnings have been deemed null and void. Because you continued to play with these void credits to accumulate your additional winnings, all of your winnings have been deemed null and void. We have removed your totaled 7,794 in winnings from your withdrawal and your account balance based on our terms and conditions for the welcome bonus.

We are sorry this is not the answer you wish to hear.

You will notice that we copied eCOGRA on this issue. We have earned our reputation by always conducting our business ethically and with integrity. We are also strong advocates for responsible and regulated gaming; were one of the 1st casino group's to earn the eCOGRA Seal of approval (

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) and have received numerous independent awards.

Regards

xxxxxx


I told them, "Look, I saw different terms and I played by the rules so why are you doing this to me?!?"

I had more than 8000 GBP in my account and they reduced my balance to ZERO. I don't know if what they are saying about the Deuces Wild is true or not; all I remember is that I before I played only Aces and Jacks or Better video pokers were excluded, but deuces wild was okay.

The only thing I am guilty of is an honest mistake.

Even if they are right and they changed terms hours before I deposited and played, is it right to just void my winnings? Where is the goodwill? Someone wins big at your casino and you just decide just not to pay them?

King Neptunes told me that they informed eCogra of the situation. I haven't heard anything from eCogra so I assume that they are siding with King Neptunes. But I think eCogra is a sham anyway, especially after reading all of the complaints against them in the online forums...

If anyone can help me with this, I could sure use the help.

Wow! So many posts with supporters for both sides. I will just chip in to confuse things further.

First, unlucky April Fool's Day for the player but if Neptune just changed their Ts and Cs the day before, tough luck although I personally believe the casino should have given players a 1-week grace period at their 'discretion'. After all, the players can hardly benefit from playing Deuces Wild as there is still a slight house edge and the more the play the more advantageous it is to the player.

Second, it only states that the winnings from excluded games will be 'null and void' but it doesnt mention the additional winnings from other games. Logically,if all the additional winnings were accumulated through 'excluded game winnings' or the sign-up bonus they could be confiscated as well but it should be remembered that there was a $200 deposit as well. How can the casino be certain that the money was not won with the deposit. There is nothing in the Ts and Cs which state that the deposit cannot be used to generate the additional winnings. If, for example, a $500 wager is placed on an even money bet and the player won, wouldnt this mean that the winner should win $200 and the casino would confiscate $300. Then at the very next bet, the player starts with $400 of his own money.

Since the casino is being quite mean, the player should make a claim for the loyalty points which are accumulated through play and are not mentioned in the relevant Ts and Cs. With such an extensive playthrough, you might get something substantial.

See, I told you I would make things more confusing. It's up to Neptune to work out a satisfactory compromise.

 

[elscrabinda]

Again I do not doubt that they are within their rights to do this. Less reputable Playtech casinos are also within their rights to use "management reserves the right to screw you over" clauses to seize winnings. That doesn't mean that anyone here thinks they are RIGHT to do it, nor that seizing winnings is the hallmark of a quality casino.

If anyone can tell me a legitimate reason for even having this term then I will be grateful. The only reason I can see is to have an excuse to seize winnings. The game has a massive 3.23% House edge (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). I would be very interested to know how to turn that house edge into the players favour but I don't think its possible.

A legitimate casino should not put in clauses whos only purpose is to trip up players. There is no justification for banning it as it is costing the player money to play. Restrict any games you want to cover wagering requirements but unless you want to have problems like this then do not ban them outright. It does no one any favours in the long run

People have said "he should have got screenshots and checked the terms right before he played". Yes, if I'm playing at some godawful RTG or similar then I expect to have to do that. At reputable casinos (which I wholeheartedly believed KN was) then as Slotster says, I expect the experience to be a little more fun and not have a dodgy manager just waiting for me to accidentally play the wrong game.

I'm not saying that KN are rogue or criminal. Their terms cover them to do this. I am saying that a previously good operation has lost my trust and I'm sure that of many others here.

 

[Vesuvio]

It's something that we have to live with as long as we have bonuses. If one plays excluded games and generates winnings that generates additional winnings, even on included games, then the winnings should be voided. These are common bonus rules that are omnipresent.

You're simply wrong here, Bryan. The vast majority of casinos, and certainly reputable casinos, don't mind any wagering on excluded games. It just doesn't count towards the wagering requirement.

If this was your casino, how would have you dealt with this? Would you let it slide knowing that you would be setting a precedent that may jeopardize you and your employees business? Or stick to your T&Cs?

Letting players play on games that don't count towards the wagering requirement isn't going to jeopardize anyone's business. This isn't a loop hole that allows players to gain an extra advantage.

And as mentioned before, the T&Cs allow discretion - paying this player isn't against the T&Cs, though it would cost the casino £8000, which is the only reason they're unlikely to budge.

 

[Slotster!]

I do take on board the new player thing, what with casino's that offer bonuses needing to be ultra careful (this backs up my loyalty bonus argument!!)

It's something that we have to live with as long as we have bonuses. If one plays excluded games and generates winnings that generates additional winnings, even on included games, then the winnings should be voided. These are common bonus rules that are omnipresent.

If they generated winnings that were played out as well, then yes. And I don't think it was so hard-lined - it's just an unfortunate incident. No one likes to see this happen - but it happens.

If this was your casino, how would have you dealt with this? Would you let it slide knowing that you would be setting a precedent that may jeopardize you and your employees business? Or stick to your T&Cs?

These rules aren't omnipresent though! More to the point though, they weren't even PRESENT 24 hours earlier!! I can imagine myself being in exactly the same position. Check out the casino, yep - they seem ok, I'll give them a go in the tomorrow... Oh bugger.

Seriously - this is a real shame. If it was my casino, I would've genuinely dealt with it differently. Taking as read that this guy didn't hammer the 'banned' game, and wandered in and out of the various games like a normal casino user would - I'd look after them as a customer.

I can see it from both sides, I can also see why I won't play there as a result. .. Why risk it? What if they decide to change the T&C's again tomorrow?

Like I said up there - I'm eager to hear the casino operators perspective on this!

 

[chuchu59]

It's something that we have to live with as long as we have bonuses. If one plays excluded games and generates winnings that generates additional winnings, even on included games, then the winnings should be voided. These are common bonus rules that are omnipresent.


If they generated winnings that were played out as well, then yes. And I don't think it was so hard-lined - it's just an unfortunate incident. No one likes to see this happen - but it happens.


Perhaps there would have been more "good will" allotted here if this was not a new player. They don't know her, didn't know her intentions, and deal with player bonus issues on a daily basis. It's not fair to surmise that this happened merely a few hours past midnight, because it didn't.

If this was your casino, how would have you dealt with this? Would you let it slide knowing that you would be setting a precedent that may jeopardize you and your employees business? Or stick to your T&Cs?

If we stick to the Terms and Conditions, there is nothing that says that additional winnings can be confiscated if you had won with excluded games winnings. It only seems logical to come to this conclusion. However, would this player purposefully build up a balance through playing excluded games and then use then use this to generate additional winnings. Certainly not because he might have a greater chance playing even money games like Baccarat to do so.

Common bonus rules state where a bonus is claimed, the deposit is played first and only if there is no balance left will the bonus then be played. Thus, the additional winnings could probably have been won with the deposit and so it is unreasonable to confiscate all winnings. A balance has to be struck somewhere. The casino should use playcheck to deduce how much had been won with the deposit. This way, at least they can show they are not taking advantage of the player's oversight in reading the Ts and Cs. Otherwise, if strictly adherence to them are necessary, all additional winnings from 'non-excluded' games should be returned to the player simply because nothing about this was stated in the Terms.

 

[Simmo!]

I think most casinos would probably accept that if it were a loyal player in this situation, they would probably pay up for goodwill.

Unfortunately for the majority of honest players, bonus hunters/abusers have made the whole bonus situation much more difficult to handle for both for players and for casinos. Consequently, rightly or wrongly, we are all tarred with the same brush and we get unfortunate threads like this. It's also why I tend to keep away from threads where people advocate bonus hunting in case I lose the plot

It's my opinion that casinos that attract players based on bonuses can't complain when threads like this crop up. I think they expect it to be honest. It's inevitable, human nature even, that people will take them and most will try to profit from them, obviously. But it doesn't surprise me when, if the player even slightly falls foul of the T&C's, the casino enforces them. Casinos are businesses after all and in the majority of cases, all decisions are made with a view to supporting the viability of the business model that investors have subscribed to.

A comment directly related to this case: if the winnings made from Deuces Wild contributed to further winnings on other games, that is where there is a problem.

 

[GOCC]

Ive tried to see if he has mentioned this but cant see that he has.

Who has said that he WON playing Deuces Wild or even Played alot of Deuces wild. Whos to say he wasnt on 10k then lost 2k playing a banned game.

Now taking this to the extreme but trying to show a situation, lets say the player won 8k playing Allowed games in relation to the terms and conditions then before he had quiet reached the WR, he had 2 on a banned game then realised his mistake.

Are the supporters of the casinos view here saying that if this also happened, they would support the disqualification of his winnings ?

I do see both sides of the story here and believe a side from King Neptunes should come on here and post as well.

 

[Simmo!]

Ive tried to see if he has mentioned this but cant see that he has.

Who has said that he WON playing Deuces Wild or even Played alot of Deuces wild. Whos to say he wasnt on 10k then lost 2k playing a banned game.

Hence my use of the word "if"

 

[The Dude]

King Neptunes did return my deposit. And since I played Deuces Wild first, ALL of my winnings were deemed 'null & void' per King Neptunes discretion.

Your deposit and bonus remain in your account. Aren't you free to give it another go?

What I am looking for here is King Neptunes to reconsider their decision on their term, "...these [excluded game] winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group."
...

So you post here, hoping the casino will "cave" in order to save face - already some players are rallying around the "how dare they" soapbox. Sorry I don't buy into this.

You were are a first time player - I know for a fact that this casino makes exceptions for their regular players when their regular players sometimes make a mistake. For you to come in here complaining that they are withholding your winnings is just not right. You didn't win anything since you played an excluded game.

I will cherish the day when the software is programed to disable the games that are prohibited/disallowed/insert appropriate synonym here. I have spoken.

Also, all Trident Lounge members are emailed when changes to bonus terms occur, but how can they contact you if they don't know who you are? You hadn't signed up yet.

Again, it wasn't like this happened over a few hours. The new bonus rules were uploaded a couple of hours before midnight EST, you signed up the following evening.

This forum can be extremely helpful in assisting players and solving player concerns and problems. But please don't use this forum as an arm-twisting device. Thank you.

 

[Slotster!]

Come on King Neptune's... Let us know what happened! Alternatively, if the player could come out with an honest account of exactly what was played and won - that'd be good.

It seems the general consenscus does depend on how, and how much Deuces Wild was played...

I've got to day though, regardless of the T&C's, this whole thing is absurd in my opinion... I'll echo the sentiments of another poster up there in that this is still a good house edge game... Madness.

If the casino do decide to contribute here, please let us know why this game specifically is excluded (sorry - banned with severe consequences!) as well - that'd be good!

 

[Slotster!]

I will cherish the day when the software is programed to disable the games that are prohibited/disallowed/insert appropriate synonym here. I have spoken.

My cynical side makes me want to say "then they'd have no excuse to confiscate winnings from the winners, and keep the deposits from the losers"... But I'm sure that's not the case

 

[tennis_balls]

So you post here, hoping the casino will "cave" in order to save face - already some players are rallying around the "how dare they" soapbox. Sorry I don't buy into this.

Perhaps you have better info regarding this individual player, CM? From what I've read here, I don't think belittling this player is justified. Do you really think this guy was laying in the tall grass just waiting for Trident to alter their T&C so he could implement this master plan and let his Deuces Wild system work its magic?

I know it's easy for me to say this in hindsight, but Trident could have easily avoided this with a simple line or two in an e-mail to all players signing up in the weeks immediately following the T&C change. Players have the responsibility to read all the T&Cs, but the casino also has a responsibility to provide clear terms and ensure players are notified when those terms change.

 

[soflat]

These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group.

I think what they are doing with the 'sole discretion' part is to leave them an out for cases where a player made a small error.

For example, if you played 95% allowed games and 5% excluded games by mistake, then maybe they would let that slide. Like they are trying not to screw you over for a little mistake, which is good.

But to win 8000 GBP on an excluded game is kind of extreme, and probably beyond the good-will of any casino.

 

[elscrabinda]

For example, if you played 95% allowed games and 5% excluded games by mistake, then maybe they would let that slide. Like they are trying not to screw you over for a little mistake, which is good.

But to win 8000 GBP on an excluded game is kind of extreme, and probably beyond the good-will of any casino.

8000 of winnings could have come from a single spin. I still want to know WHY the game was banned. It has a high house edge. Higher than three card poker which he played. Not quite as high as the slots he played. To me he does not look like a bonus hunter deliberately abusing the system. If you know more than you're letting on CM then thats fine but on the facts as I understand them, you are being very unfair imo having a go at the player for playing a whole day after the terms changed.

 

[The Dude]

Perhaps you have better info regarding this individual player, CM? From what I've read here, I don't think belittling this player is justified. Do you really think this guy was laying in the tall grass just waiting for Trident to alter their T&C so he could implement this master plan and let his Deuces Wild system work its magic?.

I don't think I'm belittling anyone. The fact of the matter is, you have a person sign up at a casino, and then claim they have read the terms and conditions the day before - when they had allowed the games she played at. It's an unfortunate incident - and I feel sorry for the player, but I don't feel that the casino should honor winnings that stemmed from these changes. If they were to give in, what sort of precedent are they creating? Terms and conditions change periodically, and when they would change, players could claim that they read them on the day before the change. That would be just plain stupid.

Like I said before, this casino has made exceptions in the player's favor when players mess up. But this is for players that they know. That's common business sense.

I know it's easy for me to say this in hindsight, but Trident could have easily avoided this with a simple line or two in an e-mail to all players signing up in the weeks immediately following the T&C change. Players have the responsibility to read all the T&Cs, but the casino also has a responsibility to provide clear terms and ensure players are notified when those terms change.

I don't get what you're saying. So the casino is supposed to guess who is signing up before they sign up and send an email to these people? This player signed up on the evening of the 1st - not at one or two AM. And how was this casino supposed to know she read them the day before?

 

[winbig]

Here's an interesting site people can use to be notified when a specific page is changed. I think it'd be quite beneficial to take them up on it

That way you can be kept up to date for those T&C changes, etc..

I'm sure there's others out there, but this is right at the top on google.

Add a page to monitor:

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