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KING NEPTUNES Is Withholding My Winnings!

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Micki said:
We would have been perfectly within our rights to not allow her to start again, but we decided to return her inital deposit and bonus permitting her to start again.

You should have stopped while you were ahead.

The T&Cs state that you can confiscate winnings from excluded games. It doesn't allow you to confiscate deposits.

Furthermore, reviewing your T&Cs, the confiscation clause is buried.

You bold the fact that excluded games do not count towards the WR, but then bury the confiscation part within another paragraph.
 
Restricted games are so "playtechish", and there is no need at all for an honest reputable casino to have rules like these. It is not rocket science.Just set up your bonuses and promos allowing all games. With a little creative thinking it can still be profitable for the casino,and incentive for the player. I have many good ideas I will use after I land my job as a online casino manager.
 
soflat said:
The T&Cs state that you can confiscate winnings from excluded games. It doesn't allow you to confiscate deposits.

What part of the casino giving the player back her deposit AND bonus (which is currently still sitting in the player's account) do you not understand? :what:

I'm sorry, but I still can't see how people expect casinos to allow players to build up their bankroll on excluded games so that the player stands a better chance of making money (or merely keeping the bonus) after meeting WR on allowed games.
 
Macgyver said:
What part of the casino giving the player back her deposit AND bonus (which is currently still sitting in the player's account) do you not understand? :what:

The casino rep acts like they were doing her a favor by not confiscating the deposit:

We would have been perfectly within our rights to not allow her to start again, but we decided to return her inital deposit and bonus permitting her to start again.

Which part of the T&Cs do you understand to mean they can confiscate deposits? It only mentions winnings being confiscatable.

If they feel they can confiscate deposits without stating that in the T&Cs I would consider that extremely shady.
 
Spearmaster I concede on that. I misused the term 'hung out to dry' and in the EH thread you seem remarkably non biased.

Micki, I think you are confusing your terms.

As many of you have pointed out our T & C's state: '...the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group.' This statement is there to allow us to make an exception at our discretion, it does not obligate us. We have made many exceptions and will continue to do so if we feel it correct.

The 'exception' which the terms refer to is of seizing winnings "These winnings may be deemed null & void and will be removed/confiscated from your account balance or withdrawals at the sole discretion of Trident Entertainment Group."

The 'exception' which you refer to is of NOT seizing winnings. There is a big difference between innocent until proven guilty and guilty until proven innocent. The burden of proof on justifying why an exception should be made (ie. the confiscation of winnings) should lie with the casino not with the player having to justify why an exception should not be made.

Hiding behind the terms is pretty poor show. The terms allow you to make an exception and confiscate winnings but by no means obligate you to do so.

It is an active decision to invoke this term and make an exception. You are muddling your 'exceptions'. And saying "we are allowed to do it" does not win the argument. All it does is link you in the minds of players with unscrupulous Playtech operators who use a virtually identical term to seize winnings.

I don't like to be saying this about King Neptunes. As you know I USED to consider them pretty much the best around. Now thats relegated to "better than average" which is not much of a title considering the rest of the industry
 
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elscrabinda said:
Spearmaster I concede on that. I misused the term 'hung out to dry' and in the EH thread you seem remarkably non biased.
LMAO... now if I could only convince the other 99% :)

The 'exception' which you refer to is of NOT seizing winnings. There is a big difference between innocent until proven guilty and guilty until proven innocent. The burden of proof on justifying why an exception should be made (ie. the confiscation of winnings) should lie with the casino not with the player having to justify why an exception should not be made.

Hiding behind the terms is pretty poor show. The terms allow you to make an exception and confiscate winnings but by no means obligate you to do so.

I don't think I can agree with this argument - though I do see where you could say "winnings WILL be void and null and shall be confiscated" - this is something that perhaps Trident can look at.

However - the fact remains that Trident was fully entitled to take the action it did. I personally would prefer the terms worded as I explained above - but I would also understand the word "exception" to mean a hand or spin or two on an excluded game in a session which is otherwise clearly dominated by games which do count towards playthrough.

In this case - I somehow doubt $6700 was "accidentally" won in a hand or two. I honestly cannot see how this could be considered an exception. Yet Micki chose to look beyond that and look at the first qualifying bet - which the player lost - so in my opinion every opportunity was afforded in analyzing the situation even though I think this is well beyond what any casino should be required to do.

It is an active decision to invoke this term and make an exception. You are muddling your 'exceptions'. And saying "we are allowed to do it" does not win the argument. All it does is link you in the minds of players with unscrupulous Playtech operators who use a virtually identical term to seize winnings.

Again I have to disagree, for the reasons stated above. The PT operators you refer to generally abuse the wording in their T&Cs. I can not in any manner see this as abuse.

soflat said:
The casino rep acts like they were doing her a favor by not confiscating the deposit

I think her statement was just kind of poorly written. I don't think Micki would even consider not returning a deposit as a bare minimum. I know of cases where she was badly taken advantage of and she paid out every single cent.
 
whats a fair casino

whats a fair casino accredited casinos no i dont think so i think its a casino who acts fairly and pays to winners no matter if they won from bonus or not its been about fair and good i dont think this player was a bonus abuser imagine what will happen if that player won major millions after playing a restrcited game wont they pay 1mill becouse of time diffrent the player has read the terms before and regester 1 day later do you think is it good thing for players to check terms day by day if terms changed its not stockexchange it casinos for godsake :what: i think king neptunes will do the right thing
 
vedat said:
whats a fair casino accredited casinos no i dont think so i think its a casino who acts fairly and pays to winners no matter if they won from bonus or not its been about fair and good i dont think this player was a bonus abuser imagine what will happen if that player won major millions after playing a restrcited game wont they pay 1mill becouse of time diffrent the player has read the terms before and regester 1 day later do you think is it good thing for players to check terms day by day if terms changed its not stockexchange it casinos for godsake :what: i think king neptunes will do the right thing

As far as I know, progressives are also excluded from playthrough requirements. In fact, I am quite certain of this because the casino will have to make a contribution to the jackpot for each bet on a progressive. If such a strange situation were to actually occur, I suspect the jackpot would simply be reset to its past level - and both the player AND the casino lose money.
 
spearmaster said:
As far as I know, progressives are also excluded from playthrough requirements. In fact, I am quite certain of this because the casino will have to make a contribution to the jackpot for each bet on a progressive.
On the other hand the casino would not have to pay out if the player hit the jackpot. Ignoring any cut by the software provider, the two should balance out in the long term, especially for smaller jackpots which hit more frequently.
 
GrandMaster said:
On the other hand the casino would not have to pay out if the player hit the jackpot. Ignoring any cut by the software provider, the two should balance out in the long term, especially for smaller jackpots which hit more frequently.

This will depend on the provider. If it is Microgaming we're talking about, notice I mentioned that a cut of each bet would go to the jackpot - and thus the jackpot is paid out by Jackpot Madness, not the casino. The casino makes less on a progressive bet than on an equivalent bet in another game, even if the house edge is higher.
 
Let's compare progressive and non-progressive slots with 95% payout or equivalently, 5% house edge.

Non-progressive: The casino pays out, on average, 95c out of every $1 wagered and keeps 5c as gross profit.

Progressive: Let's assume that the progressive jackpot accounts for 5% of the payout and 90% is paid out on the other wins, and that the casino pays 5% to the software provider. Now the casino only gets 95c out of every $1 wagered, but only has to pay out 90c, so the casino's expected profit is still 5c. Assume now that the jackpot only accounts for 4%, and the other wins 91%, but the casino still has to pay 5% of the amount wagered to the software provider. Now the casino has to pay out 91c out of 95c, so it is essentially a slot machine with 4% house edge.

Maybe someone closer to the industry could supply more accurate percentages, but the principle is clear.
 
elscrabinda said:
And saying "we are allowed to do it" does not win the argument. All it does is link you in the minds of players with unscrupulous Playtech operators who use a virtually identical term to seize winnings.
I don't think King Neptunes have the deliberately unclear terms of unscrupulous operators, but this "trigger" term that forfeits winnings is unworthy of a casino aspiring to be among the best (as some still seem unclear on this, the usual standard is for play on disallowed games simply not to count towards wagering).

The problem with triggers is that it's a certainty that a consistent stream of recreational players will fall for them . It'd be interesting to see the figures for the amounts forfeited weekly, but I'd assume that around any change in terms and conditions it skyrockets. It's fair enough for casinos to earn money due to the house edge and variance - I think aggressively taking advantage of errors is something that should be restricted to the lower end of the industry.

The one valid argument in favour of the term would be mathematical, but it's not convincing. A lot of people are being blinded by the huge sum the player built up here, as if playing a restricted game somehow made that likely. Most of the other players caught out playing deuces wild at this time no doubt lost their deposits. Sharp players don't need to play restricted games to ensure a significant expected profit.

Micki, in the interests of attracting and retaining players it might genuinely be worth your while to reconsider forfeiting winnings. At the very least you might consider mitigating the effects when you switch terms and have more players making mistakes.
 
GrandMaster said:
Let's compare progressive and non-progressive slots with 95% payout or equivalently, 5% house edge.

Non-progressive: The casino pays out, on average, 95c out of every $1 wagered and keeps 5c as gross profit.

Progressive: Let's assume that the progressive jackpot accounts for 5% of the payout and 90% is paid out on the other wins, and that the casino pays 5% to the software provider. Now the casino only gets 95c out of every $1 wagered, but only has to pay out 90c, so the casino's expected profit is still 5c. Assume now that the jackpot only accounts for 4%, and the other wins 91%, but the casino still has to pay 5% of the amount wagered to the software provider. Now the casino has to pay out 91c out of 95c, so it is essentially a slot machine with 4% house edge.

Maybe someone closer to the industry could supply more accurate percentages, but the principle is clear.

Somehow I misread your post to mean that the casino DID have to payout the jackpot... my mistake :(

Your description is correct - but I remember that there was a reason why progressives did not count. I'll have to look that up.
 
Seem to have caught the ass end of this one, so I shant input any further except stating that Micki is probably one of the most honest casino operators around.

The old timers will probably remember the sunny group fiasco. imo Micki's impeccable integrity was sealed with her action on that one. If you don't know about that google it I'm sure there is still info around.

While I'm whistling on my soap box, (this is not a justification either) but running a casino is not a bed of roses or a walk in the park. Each day bonus whores are consistently trying to screw you over.

IMO casino T&C's are over the top, but if they didn't have all their T's crossed and their i's dotted, they'd be royally screwed over by every bonus whore around. Not everyone is a bonus whore, unfortunately the casinos a so paranoid of the scams these days that they are on high alert always.

The good old days have long gone!
 
Trezz said:
IMO casino T&C's are over the top, but if they didn't have all their T's crossed and their i's dotted, they'd be royally screwed over by every bonus whore around. Not everyone is a bonus whore, unfortunately the casinos a so paranoid of the scams these days that they are on high alert always.
As many examples show, they don't have their t's crossed and i's dotted.
 
Vesuvio said:
I don't think King Neptunes have the deliberately unclear terms of unscrupulous operators, but this "trigger" term that forfeits winnings is unworthy of a casino aspiring to be among the best (as some still seem unclear on this, the usual standard is for play on disallowed games simply not to count towards wagering).

"Standard"?? :confused:

There is no standard for a casino's T&C, which is part of the problem. I've been playing bonuses for almost 3 years now ... I've always read T&C to be that if you play an excluded game, you risk forfeiting your bonus and winnings.

However, if you're arguing that there should be a standard, I'm in 100% agreement with you.
 
Partly convincing

I am afraid the part about the player leaping on the DW as soon as possible is not a convincing case as the player believed this game was OK. Her move to 3 card poker can be explained because this game also has the excitement of having a big payout potential on a single bet. I can't see the relevance to her first bet happening to be 400, this is simply the table max, and the fact that is matches the deposit and bonus is irrelevant. I suspect the player simply wanted to go for another big win by playing large bets. Surely if the aim was to abuse the bonus I would have expected a switch to slots on low stakes and autoplay to clear the WR painlessly overnight, followed by the full 8000 being requested. (I am assuming the player has not lied to the forum in her posts, or otherwise attempted to mislead).

I have played just this pattern without a bonus when I have hit a royal flush. I take a few bets on the 3-card poker to see if it is hot, and try the other VP games.
If I was wanting to win from a Trident bonus, I would probably start on 3-card poker, given that last month JorB and A&F did not apply. With all VP now excluded, I would still try a little 3-card poker, but would then play the free spin slots.
If only slots were allowed, and I wanted to go for the big hit, I would lump 4.50 per spin on 5-reel drive till any 5 in a row hit and then played something like Sonic Boom on a low stake. This "abuse" strategy is still available under the current terms.
Players who take a bonus expect to have a chance of winning big, to hammer the terms down to the extent that winning is not seen as desirable is not going to attract new customers. I would love to know how such a balance was built up on DW from 400, this alone seems extremely lucky, and I would expect 99.9% of bonus hunters trying this would lose everything pretty quickly on the variance. True, JorB might give them a chance to clear WR and take the bonus, but not anything with a higher variance.

Whatever the reputation of a casino, I am wary of such confiscation terms as the decision is subjective (unless applied in all cases). Mikki has not mentioned whether any of the other 4 restricted games played were also restricted in the T & C the player claimed to have thought applied, this could weaken the players case significantly, as the current belief is that the player only played DW because this was a new restriction not present in April.

I recall the case earlier of the 86 year old Israeli who argued with Fortune Lounge against the confiscation clause. The forum rallied round in part and Fortune Lounge reconsidered and allowed another chance. Personally, I found 86 year old Israeli woman gambling online hard to swallow, and I didn't really think the player stood much chance as this was a pretty clear circumstantial indicator of a player "trick", yet only a couple of posts brought this up.

I would urge all MG casinos to use EZBonus, such problems as this simply could not happen. The bonuses on offer should be reassessed so that they have the same expected value as before. Another thing to look at is severely cutting the max wager size on new player accounts. MG supports this, Casino Action used it last year on bonus and tournament accounts. These two changes will prevent the arguments about WR, and will prevent the big bet scenario used by some bonus chasers to get a head start.
Another way of offering a bonus might to be to give back 1%, or so of total wagering in the first x days the account is open. The cashback will be weighted according to the games that qualify so as to not provide a long term positive expectation that could be ground out on autoplay.
 
The $400 is relevant. Actually, it can be argued that winnings on 'non-excluded games cannot be confiscated if it can be shown that this was won through the deposit and bonus and not from winnings derived from non-excluded games. The fact that she lost her first bet of $400 means that she would have already lost her deposit and bonus and she used her 'winnings' to place further bets. Conversely, if she had won her $400 bet, she would have $800 of her own money to continue playing and it is possible that some of the additional winnings on 'non excluded games' are legitmate and the casino should pay her.
 
Macgyver said:
"Standard"?? :confused:

There is no standard for a casino's T&C, which is part of the problem. I've been playing bonuses for almost 3 years now ... I've always read T&C to be that if you play an excluded game, you risk forfeiting your bonus and winnings.
By standard for reputable casinos I just mean that that's the way almost all of them have worked. Terms that mean you can forfeit all your winnings for a small mistake have generally been found only at the more dubious Playtechs & RTGs.

I think Microgaming understand the ill-will that creates which explains why they designed the EZBonus system (which vinylweatherman mentioned) with no such trigger for forfeiting all of a player's funds. That looks like the new standard, though it'll be interesting to see if casinos like King Neptune's move over to it or continue to risk their player base with their present terms (they'll weigh the bad publicity against the extra bonanza they get in forfeited winnings).
 
piecar said:
Just a few things...

Again, as I have said before I read the Terms & Conditions on the evening of March 31st. I made my deposit and played at about 6 pm on April 1st. I would say the total elapsed time was about 20 hours between reading and playing. My bad. Again, I made an HONEST mistake and was hoping that this forum would help me to have King Neptunes relax their position on thier right to 'void and confiscate all winnings made on excluded games...'

BTW Casinomeister, you chastised me for posting this in the forum instead of dircetly "pitching a bitch." I went to pitch my bitch but there was a note on the webpage that said you were away and to just post in the forum. And that is what I did. I was following your instructions.

Anyway you should all know that played many games at King Neptunes. I played slots, cyber stud poker, roulette, craps, blackjack, tri card poker. I played A LOT there. I wagered A LOT. And I only cashed in a small portion of my nearly 8,000 pound balance--I cashed in for 1,000 pounds and fully intended to play with the rest at a later date.

I admit that it is my responsibility to read and understand the casino's Terms & Condtions. My only gripe is the extreme interpretation of their "right to void winnings" clause. This was an honest mistake!!


I dont know if it's been said, but for what it's worth, you have my sympathies. 8k pounds is probably a lot of money to you (it certainly would be to me!), and it's doubly frustrating, because you'll probably never see another run like that again.

I consider myself reasonably experienced, but I can easily see myself making the same mistake you did - checking the terms and conditions on one day, and depositing and playing on the next, without realizing the terms and conditions had changed overnight in the meantime.

Online casinos are very sophisticated when it comes to these kinds of traps - if you're going to play online, you have to be at least as sophisticated as they are. And it pays to remember even if you do everything right, they reserve the right to seize all your winnings anyway. It really is the wild west out there - it's not like playing in Vegas, or Atlantic City. There's no one to appeal to, if something goes wrong. --And that includes even running rigged games against the players.

It's also important to remember that affiliates - people who promote casinos and refer customers to their sites - make money only when players lose. So they have very little sympathy for a winner - because winners cost them money too.
 
Linus said:
It's also important to remember that affiliates - people who promote casinos and refer customers to their sites - make money only when players lose. So they have very little sympathy for a winner - because winners cost them money too.


Actually that's not strictly true - there are options for "CPA" or even % of deposits in most cases. Also, speaking personally, an affiliate's main concern is (should be) that a player likes the casino they were recommended, and winning is obviously part of that. It not only reflects well on the affiliate, but means the player will remain loyal to the casino.

But I accept many affiliates don't see this approach initially. More fool them.
 
Ditto to what Simmo! said.

For what it's worth, I've been in touch with Microgaming about this and they're going to try to have their programmers find a way to disable disallowed games for bonus play. This would eliminate problems like this. I hope to see this implemented in the near future.
 
Casinomeister said:
For what it's worth, I've been in touch with Microgaming about this and they're going to try to have their programmers find a way to disable disallowed games for bonus play. This would eliminate problems like this. I hope to see this implemented in the near future.

Bloody brilliant idea :D
 
I realize that I am at King Neptunes mercy here. And the terms say that the casino reserves the right not to pay at their own discretion. I really wish they would reconsider and honor my winnings.

Their "discretion" not to pay is to a player who made a mistake. An honest mistake. I played less than a day after the terms had changed from what I had read. I abided by the old terms; I did not violate them.

Look, I registered at King Neptunes to play. And I played a lot. And I cashed in a little. I wanted to walk away with a small profit (1,000), so I made a cash out and left the rest there to play later.
 
piecar said:
I realize that I am at King Neptunes mercy here. And the terms say that the casino reserves the right not to pay at their own discretion. I really wish they would reconsider and honor my winnings.

Their "discretion" not to pay is to a player who made a mistake. An honest mistake. I played less than a day after the terms had changed from what I had read. I abided by the old terms; I did not violate them.

Look, I registered at King Neptunes to play. And I played a lot. And I cashed in a little. I wanted to walk away with a small profit (1,000), so I made a cash out and left the rest there to play later.
Hi Piecar,

I remember not too long ago I found $50 in my iNetBet account; a bonus that they placed in there just to be nice. I thought "Oh boy!" and went to play some slots and Deuces Wild. At one point I hit Four Deuces to the tune of about $1000. I thought, "effin' a!" and went to cash out. I only found out later that - duh, I could only cash out $250 max (I'm relying on memory - it's somewhere in the forum). Did I freak out and start hammering the casino with "Why didn't you pay me? I didn't ask for the bonus, I made a mistake!" No. I just went on figuring "what the hell - my bad." Did I ask the casino to please make an exception - that I hadn't read the terms? No, that didn't even cross my mind.

I know this isn't 100% applicable in your case, but I just wanted to illustrate that sometimes you just have to accept things the way they are. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. You win some - you lose some.

You still have a shot at winning something since there is $400 in your account (I believe). And if you hadn't gotten all riled up, you may have had a damn good time with this casino group.

I really don't think that this is going anywhere, do you?
 
And if you hadn't gotten all riled up, you may have had a damn good time with this casino group.

The reason he's not going to have a good time with this casino group is not due to him "getting riled up". Its to do with them seizing 8000 of winnings from him. Inevitably thats going to get the relationship off to the wrong start don't you think?

And no, thanks to their inability to interpret terms fairly and sensibly this thread isn't going anywhere. The longer it continues however the more people have a chance to read it and realise they'd be better off moving their play somewhere else. The only good thing that is likely to come out of this is that King Neptunes loses players and realises that their kneejerk reactions and reluctance to treat customers properly is going to cost them money long term
 
elscrabinda said:
The reason he's not going to have a good time with this casino group is not due to him "getting riled up". Its to do with them seizing 8000 of winnings from him. Inevitably thats going to get the relationship off to the wrong start don't you think?

And no, thanks to their inability to interpret terms fairly and sensibly this thread isn't going anywhere. The longer it continues however the more people have a chance to read it and realise they'd be better off moving their play somewhere else. The only good thing that is likely to come out of this is that King Neptunes loses players and realises that their kneejerk reactions and reluctance to treat customers properly is going to cost them money long term
I think this thread is an excercise in learning how to read. For one thing, you and others keep referring to the player as a he when it was within my second post that I indicated the player is a she. When will you (third person plural) begin to read a bit more carefully. :D
 
Casinomeister said:
I think this thread is an excercise in learning how to read...

...When will you (third person plural) begin to read a bit more carefully. :D...

:thumbsup:

Casinomeister said:
...This also shows me how closely you're reading this thread. The player is a SHE, and this was indicated early on. But besides that, I guess the British Pound is widely used in the states, because that's what she deposited...

But...

spearmaster said:
...In this case - I somehow doubt $6700 was "accidentally" won in a hand or two...

:rolleyes:

;)
 
Piecar,

I very well understand your disappointment, and I also understand you try by all means to get that money.
But in my opinion King Neptune's is right and only for the following reason :

Casinomeister said:
The old terms stated on the website 1 -31 March. It's clearly stated that those terms EXPIRE on the 31st. The player signed up the evening of the 1st, nearly 24 hours after the terms had expired.

No wonder so many players have difficulties with bonuses. You don't read.

If I should read this on March 31, I would immediately think, this is the last day of this the promotion.
I don't understand why you did not realize that.

Why they have to change the T&C is another question and I don't want to join that discussion.

In general I would suggest that online casino's should make their T&C's "idiot proof" and easy understandable,which would lead to much less complaints.

As English is not my native tongue, I have to read them usually a couple of times, before I am sure that I understand them.

But online gambling is like real life : "You have to learn from the mistakes you make"

King Neptune's is a good casino, but it is not comparable with 32Red.
(but is there any online casino comparable with 32Red?)

Although Micky herself is very close to the "32Red standard" , and the last one to blame.
 
elscrabinda said:
...thanks to their inability to interpret terms fairly and sensibly...
At the very least, twenty hours had passed between the time she read them and when she signed up. Who is to say she may have read them a week earlier, or maybe not at all? You aren't making much sense here.

Next you'll be suggesting that casinos should have a 72 hour grace period between T&C changes and when they actually go into effect. And then we can pass the crack pipe around some more. :D
 
If the terms said they expire on the last of the month, then there is no excuse to assume they carried over.

I can't blame someone for trying to collect 8000 winnings, but it is sad that an outfit like this has been dragged thru the mud for giving away 200 in gambling money to every new player.

By the way, how many reputable casinos like this offer good 200 cashable bonuses anymore? And no withdrawal hassles if you just follow the rules. They will probably just go to a slots-only bonus in the future since that is easier for the masses to understand. Oh well, another good bonus bites the dust.

I don't think it was the original poster's intention to damage their reputation (she did admit it was her mistake), but that is where this thing went.
 
I think it is evident that no matter what is posted here the player isnt going to get paid and since the casino has taken a very strict interpretation of the Terms and Conditions, we might as well call it a day. However, to avoid such repetitions the casino should do several things. First, they should continue to state a validity period for their promotions. Second, they should add a link at least 3 days before the expiry of any promos in a prominent position within the Ts and Cs Section stating the details of the next promotion together with the validity period. Third, they should state explicitly that play on excluded games is not permitted and that winnings/losses on all subsequent games will be null and void once an excluded game is played. This is to protect both the casino and the player and prevents arguments that may ensue.

The casino cannot really be faulted on this occasion but if they do not do anything and a similar case crops up I would consider that the casino has set a trap to catch unwary players, especially new ones.
 
chuchu59 said:
they should add a link at least 3 days before the expiry of any promos in a prominent position within the Ts and Cs Section stating the details of the next promotion together with the validity period.

a simple "policy changes" webpage as neteller has would be a simple solution


n.b. I began this thread clearly on the side of this player, but then when I learned that apparently she's a US citizen who deposited with GBP. While there's nothing wrong with that in itself, it doesn't wash with her, "I'm just a typical newbie gambler" song and dance on this thread. Can you say spawn of schanky?
 
Again, I do not deny that I made a mistake in regards to the "new" terms. I read the "old" terms and 20 hours later I deposited and played, unaware that I was playing under the "new" terms. How unfortunate for me that I happened to read and play during a specific 24-hour period where the terms were changed. What can I do? Nothing. BUT I would expect a decent online casino not to take such a hard stance against. IT WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE. Many of you on this board don't seem to understand this. Is it really that big of a deal for King Neptunes to pay me?!?!

If it matters, I did abide by the old terms. And as far as breaking the "new" terms, I only bet 300 credits in the "newly-excluded" game of Deuces Wild. After this I wagered something like 12,000 credits in required and non-required games. I came to King Neptunes to play, and I still want to play there. I only cashed in a small portion of my balance because I intended to play there some more. Not only did they dissolve my cash out but they confiscated my entire balance!

I am asking for them to put my credits back in my account where they belong!

Many of you are wondering why I played with British Pounds. To tell you truth, in my online gambling experiences I have had MUCH better luck playing with Pounds than playing with Dollars. I can only ask the Gambling Gods why this is true.

I just think the casino is being too harsh with me! I ask the other players out there: How would you feel if you won a large sum of money and made a small, forgivable mistake and have a casino confiscate your winnings!?! Think about it!
 
just think the casino is being too harsh with me! I ask the other players out there: How would you feel if you won a large sum of money and made a small, forgivable mistake and have a casino confiscate your winnings!?! Think about it!


OK piecar, your feelings are valid. To answer your question, yeah...I would feel "robbed". But NOT by the casino, especially one with such a sterling reputation.

I mean, other than returning your depost AND bonus, what else do you seriously expect? What you are proposing is like asking a casino to reverse a loss because you "meant to bet black, not red, and hit the wrong button".

Come on. the REAL world doesn't operate in this fashion.
 
I absolutely agree Kenneth. While I don't believe that the player was being dishonest in any way, or trying to pull a fast one....fact of the matter is that she got the best resolution that she's going to. Given the circumstances, I also think it is a fair resolution. Would I be happy if it were me? Of course not. But I would certainly learn a lesson from it.

This thread can go to 40 pages, nothing is going to change. It's done. Piecar, go and play your 200 deposit and 200 bonus and maybe you'll get lucky. That's the best you can hope for.
 
Terms

While I don't expect any change of heart, I still think the terms are poorly written. There is the beating around the bushes of stating "wagering on ....... does not count...etc", and 2 paragraphs later, NOT in the bold text of the excluded games paragraphs is a term that suggests that winnings MAY be removed. The terms need to be "Loud and Clear", the BOLD text should clearly state that play on the excluded games is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN, PROHIBITED etc, not "does not count". The confiscation paragraph needs to be moved directly beneath this and made up to bond text, and should make it clear that winnings from such play on the FORBIDDEN games will NORMALLY BE FORFEIT rather than "may be at the casino's discretion". While this will scare off players for seeming harsh, it will at least make the true situation clear.
The current terms still leave the confiscation as discresionary, which leaves them open to argument as to "why me, I only played 300 credits - that's not a big mistake". A direct prohibition would leave no room for argument. The casino does not just have to be in the right, it has to be visibly seen to have acted fairly in both the application, and DESIGN of the relevant terms. After all, rogue casinos often fairly apply their terms, but they are DESIGNED as a trap so they get to apply the bad bits frequently.
I am certain that if this case went before the UK regulatory board the casino would be asked to make it clearer that the games are PROHIBITED rather than just not counting, and to spell out more clearly that the confiscation of winnings is the most likely consequence of breaching the terms, rather than something that is done as a last resort to a detected bonus chaser.
A previous reply has stated that GBP had nothing to do with the decision in this case, it was all down to play patterns, and much seems to be made of the fact that the first losing bet on 3 card poker totalled 400, which would have lost everything had Deuces Wild not been played beforehand.
I have looked at the terms, and they are dated with a start and expiry date, but perhaps this can be made more prominent, and perhaps reiterated at a few places in the terms, such as where changes are most likely.
From the players point of view, 8000 is a hell of a lot of money to lose out on, especially when the player did have 200 of her own money at risk as well as the bonus. I would be interested to know whether the BONUS was ever wagered on the prohibited game; i.e - would this 8000 have been won had the starting balance been only the original deposit of 200.

Piecar, if you have had luck with GBP before, I think it has come to an end now! Depositing in GBP from the USA does attract the attention of the casino accounts department, and the audit of your account may be more thorough. This also gives casinos an excuse to read an intent of "bonus abuse" into your chosen currency, and many casinos will make this determination simply on the basis that you won by playing well, but in the "wrong" currency, and will seek to just return your deposit and ban you.

I hope that the MG programmers come up with a method to get around this problem; as Casinomeister suggested, blocking the forbidden games on an account would work, and some of this coding is already in place. In Casino Action, when they had the Bonus account in which to play out bonuses, all the progressives were blocked by the software BECAUSE this was bonus money; however, bonus money in a real account is normally OK on progressives, except in a few cases such as 32Red. Certainly, this code exists, but currently only blocks all progressives rather than selected games as specified by the operator. It may be doing this from the account type code, rather than individual account number, so a little development may be needed.
 
Dodgy practice by King Neptunes. The casino were the ones that had the advantage of the non-bonusclearing game and yet they have the nerve to confiscate (in my book steal) this players money.

And Casinomeister, you can forget about the casinos coding in a solution so you are unable to play excluded games. This for the simple reason that casinos want people to screw up so they can slam down the hammer on them. Hell, they won't even program a system that will let you (in any practical manner) monitor how much more you have to play to clear a bonus. It is not that such programming is a behemoth of a project beyond the abilities of feeble programmers. It is a business strategy. With less room for the player to screw up there is less room to steal peoples money.

And people wonder why american politicians want to protect their voters from this business?

It is with sadness I have watched the increasing entrenchment of the very people that have a possibility to drive real positive change. You know who you are. This case and the English Harbour one clearly shows it.
 
Freudian said:
Dodgy practice by King Neptunes. The casino were the ones that had the advantage of the non-bonusclearing game and yet they have the nerve to confiscate (in my book steal) this players money.

The player had the advantage of the bonus and access to read the bonus rules. It is a generous offer by the casino, if you only follow the rules.
 
Freudian said:
And Casinomeister, you can forget about the casinos coding in a solution so you are unable to play excluded games. This for the simple reason that casinos want people to screw up so they can slam down the hammer on them. Hell, they won't even program a system that will let you (in any practical manner) monitor how much more you have to play to clear a bonus. It is not that such programming is a behemoth of a project beyond the abilities of feeble programmers. It is a business strategy. With less room for the player to screw up there is less room to steal peoples money.

With some casinos this could be the case, no qeustion about it - but I think the majority of reputable businesses would either agree with such a proposal, or else stop offering bonuses.

It is with sadness I have watched the increasing entrenchment of the very people that have a possibility to drive real positive change. You know who you are. This case and the English Harbour one clearly shows it.

It is with great sadness that I watch many of you viewing the online casino industry through rose-colored glasses. Everything that a casino does wrong, you slam. Every time a player does wrong, you slam the casino. You know who you are - it's sad that this unrealistic, one-sided view that you have of the industry is ultimately what makes everyone on both sides look bad.

If you view what we feel is the fair point of view as unfair, there isn't a whole lot we can do about it. I'm sure many of you will just simply abuse the benefits and privileges of the online casino industry until it is no longer viable - then either the casinos will disappear under rocks, or the players will.

I know which possibility is more likely. Do you?
 
soflat said:
The player had the advantage of the bonus and access to read the bonus rules. It is a generous offer by the casino, if you only follow the rules.

As is every single bonus on the web. It is the rules and their application that as always is the problem. Every dodgy casino around has a rule that lets then void any play for any reason. Are you suggesting that they are kosher simply because the rules allow then to take money if they wish to? King Neptunes behaviour in this case is very close that of industry slime giants. And we all know the reason (although some for political or whatever reason won't admit it). This player was lucky enough to win quite a bit of money.

Strange rules, the constant changing of the rules and an extremely cynical application of the rules is what we have here. And with the almost gleeful support of high ranking members of this site, why shouldn't casinos add more and more absurd rules in their T&C? It is clear that they run no risk of losing the endorsements for doing so.

T&Cs already are designed to trap players, with the terms being displayed on many different pages on the site, constant changing of the rules and different conditions for different promotions. If the industry wanted to they could make things much clearer. But then they would lose the fine print blunt object they currently have to bash their customers in the head with.
 
spearmaster said:
It is with great sadness that I watch many of you viewing the online casino industry through rose-colored glasses. Everything that a casino does wrong, you slam. Every time a player does wrong, you slam the casino. You know who you are - it's sad that this unrealistic, one-sided view that you have of the industry is ultimately what makes everyone on both sides look bad.

Do you seriously think that the "wrong" the player made here is serious enough to cost £8000? Do you really think she deserves to have her winnings confiscated?
 
Freudian said:
Do you seriously think that the "wrong" the player made here is serious enough to cost 8000? Do you really think she deserves to have her winnings confiscated?

The amount of money is entirely irrelevant. Like everyone else, I feel sorry for her because it WAS a large amount - but for $10 or $10,000, rules are STILL rules.

Does that suck? Yes, big time. Is she entitled to her winnings? No.
 
spearmaster said:
The amount of money is entirely irrelevant. Like everyone else, I feel sorry for her because it WAS a large amount - but for $10 or $10,000, rules are STILL rules.

Does that suck? Yes, big time. Is she entitled to her winnings? No.

The amount of money is highly relevant, since casinos use the rules much more often when someone wins big. To pretend that there isn't financial motives behind King Neptunes actions here is naive.

You failed to answer the question.

Do you think she deserves to lose her winnings?
 
Freudian said:
The amount of money is highly relevant, since casinos use the rules much more often when someone wins big. To pretend that there isn't financial motives behind King Neptunes actions here is naive.

Irrelevant. She broke the rules, plain and simple. She admitted as much.

Think about it - if the amount had been $10, would she - or you - be raising the same amount of fuss? I highly doubt it. Nevertheless, she still broke the rules. Questioning the casino's motive is absolutely ridiculous.

You failed to answer the question.

Do you think she deserves to lose her winnings?

I said she is not entitled to her winnings. If you want me to answer it another way, she does deserve to lose her winnings no matter how much it sucks.
 
Unfortunately rules are rules, regardless of who breaks them and what the consequences.

In my book Neptune has been an impeccable casino with the highest ethics for years, and they still are.

Would I be miffed if I wasn't paid that money? Of course! What a let down!

But we can't expect casinos to stick to the rules when it is in our favor and to ignore them when it's not.

If it's a clean industry we want (and that is exactly what I always want to shoot for) we do have to support the rules.
 
spearmaster said:
Irrelevant. She broke the rules, plain and simple. She admitted as much.

Think about it - if the amount had been $10, would she - or you - be raising the same amount of fuss? I highly doubt it. Nevertheless, she still broke the rules. Questioning the casino's motive is absolutely ridiculous.

I said she is not entitled to her winnings. If you want me to answer it another way, she does deserve to lose her winnings no matter how much it sucks.

Why is is ridiculous to question the casino's motives? Because the obvious conclusion is one you don't like?

And I may remind you that the rules does not state that the casino will confiscate the winnings. It states that the casino may deem them null and void. Most casinos have a clause that claim they may confiscate money for whatever reason they want. Most wisely never use that clause. Would use of that "catch all" rule also be supported by you? If not, why? It is in the rules.

You and I both know this player isn't a scammer. The casino knows it. They wouldn't use this rule to nail the player if the amount was small. Why piss off a potential customer over a small amount. £8k on the other hand...

There are a few casinos (32red for example) that wouldn't dream of invoking this rule for this player in this situation. Common sense says the player collective are better served by directing their play to those places and avoiding King Neptunes. No matter how friendly the owner is.
 
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