Kentucky seeking to seize 141 gaming domains

[jetset]

Some of the Kentucky officials are saying that the objective of this exercise is to force operators into settlement agreements with Kentucky to bar Kentucky residents from their sites....even though Internet gambling has not been specifically made unlawful in Kentucky.

To get the original temporary seizure the Kentucky attorneys argued that domain names are gambling devices and fall under the overall laws of the state.

The court case Friday afternoon Eastern Time will be to decide whether the (temporary) seizure mde by Franklin Circuit Judge Thomas Wingate is to be made a firm and final order of the court. If it does (and this has international implications) then there will be appeals to the higher courts.

Several Internet-conscious bodies have already served notice that they are sending legal representatives to the hearing today. And Go Daddy - one of the registrars dragooned into this charade, has announced it has engaged legal opinion and will lodge an objection.

The Kentucky lawyers working on this seizure for Gov. Beshear are being paid on a contingency basis btw - no win, no pay!!!! This makes the situation even more ridiculous imo.

Just to show you how ill-prepared the Kentucky attorneys-for-hire are, two of the domains they have attached represent already closed websites that were formerly the property of the deceased Warren Cloud ...a Kentucky official was unable to explain why these sites were closed, but said it was not due to the domain seizure!

I believe as much as 30 percent of the seized domains are actually no longer operating and have not been so since before Gov. Beshears move.

 

[lots0]

I did notice that there are some real Rogues on that list as well.

The Kentucky lawyers working on this seizure for Gov. Beshear are being paid on a contingency basis btw - no win, no pay!!!! This makes the situation even more ridiculous imo.

Ridiculous, oh ya....
But I also believe that if this is true (what is your source jetset?), it maybe CRIMINAL (and at the very least this is unethical) and those responsible should have to repay the tax payers any monies they gained from this and then have their licenses to practice law revoked.

The KY States Attorney General's Office should be the ones handling this type of action for the people of Kentucky. Not some group of mercenary, ambulance chasing low life scum...

 

[winbig]

I'd like to know wtf this proves? They took control of GoldenCasino.com last night, but the website is still up.

I love the "billing contact." Are they going to renew it once it comes due?

Registration Service Provided By: ANSWERABLE.COM
Contact: +1.3104837168
Website: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Domain Name: GOLDENCASINO.COM

Registrant:
Commonwealth of Kentucky
Michael Brown ()
125 Holmes Street
Frankfort
Kentucky,40601
US
Tel. +1.8592557080

Creation Date: 27-Oct-1997
Expiration Date: 19-Nov-2010

Domain servers in listed order:
ns2.surf4speed.com
ns1.surf4speed.com

Administrative Contact:
Commonwealth of Kentucky
Michael Brown ()
125 Holmes Street
Frankfort
Kentucky,40601
US
Tel. +1.8592557080

Technical Contact:
Commonwealth of Kentucky
Michael Brown ()
125 Holmes Street
Frankfort
Kentucky,40601
US
Tel. +1.8592557080

Billing Contact:
Commonwealth of Kentucky
Michael Brown ()
125 Holmes Street
Frankfort
Kentucky,40601
US
Tel. +1.8592557080

Status:ACTIVE

 

[jetset]

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

 

[lots0]

Quotes are from the news article that jetset posted above.

...the state's intention is to enter into settlement talks with the online casino operators, asking them to block Kentucky users from their sites and pay damages in exchange for the state returning control of the sites to them.

If they refuse, Kentucky could block access to the sites by users across the world.

Experts however, say the state should be prepared for massive legal battles, not just from the gaming industry but from free-speech and Internet commerce groups as well.

Sounds like good old fashioned extortion to me.

Why should the casino owners go along with this? Like any type of Extortion/Blackmail it never ends... As soon as everyone sees the casino owners give in and pay.... a very long line will form of people and groups that will sue the casinos for their domain names and want some money to back off.

If they want to make it illegal to gamble online in Kentucky, why not make a law to that effect, you know, make it really illegal to gamble online in Kentucky....

Maybe the same reason that KY does not have a Law against online gambling is the same reason the Ky States Attorney is not involved with this.

"The only option they would have is to set up a new domain name," Allemann said. "If they do that, they will lose a lot of their business. Some of that will be temporary, but they won't fully recover."

These guys are morons, not only should they have used the States Attorney, they should have checked with a few experts on the www ...

 

[lots0]

Note to Mods:
You guys might want to merge the two threads about this into one, my opinion only.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

If they want to make it illegal to gamble online in Kentucky, why not make a law to that effect, you know, make it really illegal to gamble online in Kentucky....

Maybe not their true intent.....still hard to pinpoint the political posturing but Yung, former heavy Republican supporter, all of a sudden turned Democratic supporter after aquiring land in Northern Kentucky for the sole purpose of building land based casino(s), well nevermind me but you may find some foreshadowing in the last sentence of the following:

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March 31, 2008
Big day for Beshear buddy Bill Yung
The next time Governor Steve Beshear starts talking about how rosy things are in Indiana, West Virginia, and Illinois because they have legalized casino gambling, remember this story.

The Indiana Gaming Commission is meeting this hour to consider the fate of Casino Aztar, the riverboat casino located on Kentucky's border in Evansville, Indiana. Casino Aztar is likely to have its casino license revoked by Indiana's state gaming commission in their meeting. The casino is owned by Northern Kentucky-based Columbia Sussex Corporation, who is putting the casino up for sale along with two other casinos in an attempt to avoid bankruptcy in the wake of a scandal that cost the company its casino license for the Tropicana Casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey.

Frequent readers of KyPolitics.org will remember that Columbia Sussex is owned by Bill Yung, the million dollar contributor to the Bluegrass Freedom Fund 527 which spent a total of $3.1 million last year in an effort to elect Steve Beshear as governor. The Republican Party of Kentucky later filed a complaint with the Kentucky Registry of Election Finance regarding the Beshear campaign's alleged coordination with the Bluegrass Freedom Fund.

The The Indianapolis Star has a good accounting of Casino Aztar and Bill Yung's troubles:

The fate of Casino Aztar will be in the hands of Indiana gambling regulators this week, a little more than a year after the troubled boat was taken over by Kentucky hotel magnate William Yung III.
The Indiana Gaming Commission, which is to convene at 1 p.m. today in Indianapolis to consider the Evansville boat's license, could take control of the facility or tighten the leash on parent Columbia Sussex Corp. until the casino can be sold.

But as of Friday, there's no buyer in these uncertain economic times, although Aztar -- Indiana's first casino -- has been on the market since December.

[...]

The Evansville Courier editorializes on Yung's Columbia Sussex Corporation:

[...]
Meanwhile, the Gaming Commission already had Columbia Sussex under its microscope because of a post-licensing suitability investigation. That was triggered when Mayor Jonathan Weinzapfel lodged a complaint that Columbia had reneged on promises about staffing levels when the commission approved transferring Aztar's license to Columbia in fall 2006. Under its previous ownership, the Evansville riverboat had once boasted nearly 1,200 workers; but under Columbia the payroll has been slashed to fewer than 950 by mid-2007, according to commission records.

The revocation of Columbia's New Jersey gaming license would be legal grounds for the Indiana commission to revoke its license here as well. And without a license, Columbia couldn't operate the casino. One can imagine the wallop to the local economy such an interruption would cause.

But indications are the Gaming Commission is trying to negotiate a graceful way out of the Evansville market for Columbia while keeping Aztar operating until a new owner is in place, Courier & Press staff writer Dan Shaw reported.

[...]

No question, Columbia Sussex has not been a good corporate citizen during its short, unpleasant tenure in Evansville. The sooner a reputable buyer is found for Aztar, the better off all will be.

[...]

Beshear was all too happy to have Bill Yung's money working for him in last year's gubernatorial campaign, and even admitted to meeting with Yung once last year. Now that Yung's casino troubles have been exposed, Beshear won't even admit to meeting with Yung in the Capitol, even though Yung's name appears on a sign in sheet for Beshear's office.

And Beshear loves to talk about the "great things" that casinos do for states that have legalized gambling. But readers will never hear Beshear talk about the significant problems that casinos bring to those states.

File this one away for next year when Beshear decides to start talking about Kentucky casinos again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I see the potential legal, ethical, corruption, etc. issues above and in this thread but I also realize online gaming has it's own issues so just posting fyi in this case.

 

[Rusty]

This is unbelievable!

Not that the Mafia (or whatever guise they are in these Days) and corruption are still alive and well and play a large role in the US political agenda but that One person alone can have so much power as to attempt to close some doors to the last great free place, the internet.
Kind of ironic how the freest place on Earth is not...erm on Earth

Talking of irony,
We are berating a corrupt Man for trying to close down a corrupt industry on the only pure medium

What a shit hole of a World we live in.

Americans it is time to stand up for what you believe in;
It is no longer enough to wave a flag singing "Land of the free"
It is time to prove you are free.
The Years of inaction and apathy have eroded your rights,but fight now, protest, protest, protest,
America is you and you can be FREE!


Thank you

 

[Mousey]

'Very complex' online gambling case continued

Link Removed (invalid URL)

State wants attorneys to name their clients

By RONNIE ELLIS
CNHI News Service

FRANKFORT Kentucky wants to know who owns those 141 domain names for Internet gambling services.

But at a hearing Friday afternoon in Judge Thomas Wingates Franklin Circuit Courtroom attorneys representing those entities steadfastly declined to reveal the names of their clients beyond the domain name itself.

Wingate gave attorneys for the gambling sites seven days to file briefs on a host of legal issues involving standing, jurisdiction and property rights before he conducts another hearing at which he could allow the state to forfeit the names.

Robert Foote, a Chicago attorney representing ...

 

[RobWin]

Brown said the state’s goal is to stop the activity in Kentucky and he used the only avenue available to him – a 1974 Kentucky law that allows the state to seize illegal gambling “devices.” The state contends the domain names constitute gambling devices.

If that's the case then you could also argue that the domain names for foreign banking sites constitute money laundering devices...

What a can of worms this will open up !!

 

[jetset]

Link Removed (invalid URL)

State wants attorneys to name their clients

By RONNIE ELLIS
CNHI News Service

FRANKFORT Kentucky wants to know who owns those 141 domain names for Internet gambling services.

But at a hearing Friday afternoon in Judge Thomas Wingates Franklin Circuit Courtroom attorneys representing those entities steadfastly declined to reveal the names of their clients beyond the domain name itself.

Wingate gave attorneys for the gambling sites seven days to file briefs on a host of legal issues involving standing, jurisdiction and property rights before he conducts another hearing at which he could allow the state to forfeit the names.

Robert Foote, a Chicago attorney representing ...

And before the parties even entered the court Friday there were negotiations going on between Kentucky officials and representatives of un-named online casino operators, according to Forbes.

The discussions centred on blocking Kentucky residents....and how much the operatoirs were prepared to pay Kentucky state for damages already incurred - whatever that means.

October 7 resumption of these hearings is going to be interesting.

 

[Mousey]

And before the parties even entered the court Friday there were negotiations going on between Kentucky officials and representatives of un-named online casino operators, according to Forbes.

The discussions centred on blocking Kentucky residents....and how much the operatoirs were prepared to pay Kentucky state for damages already incurred - whatever that means.

October 7 resumption of these hearings is going to be interesting.

Amazing isn't it? It always comes down to extorting money... there can be no other word for it. Intimidate, coerce, extort.... the pattern remains the same. If it wasn't about extorting money, it would be easier and less time consuming to simply block Kentuckians ISPs from connecting the 'offending' sites, would it not?

Protectionism reigns when they roll out the sacred cow -- horse racing. Mr Beshear is so intent on keeping ALL gambling money in his state, I wonder if he's considered a blockade at all roads leading out of Kentucky... no one allowed out who is driving to AC, or Illinois, or Tunica to gamble. Citizens entering the state required to declare if they're bringing in money won gambling out of state, such winnings would be declared illegal and would be confiscated by the state. Any casino in any state which allow Kentuckians to play would be fined. No flights out allowed to Vegas or Reno.... Ridiculous? that's precisely what Beshear is doing -- except because he's doing it on the internet, very few average citizens are paying attention.

I wonder how the WTO will feel about Beshear's stunt?

Also I find the timing of this thing interesting. Barney Frank and the Financial committees have their hands full to overflowing with the financial stability of our country's banks. So while all this is going on (banks failing, gov't bail outs, etc.) Beshear just so happens to decide to play Lord of the Internet, beginning with a trio of ideas horrifying to most who use the WWW -- internet censorship (wants to block Kentuckians' internet access to certain websites), cybersquating (they've already taken over two domains and threaten over 130 more), and cyberterrorism (do what I say or I'll take your domains).

Strangely enough... I find Beshear's actions, and the possibility that he may succeed, more frightening than the idea that my local banks may go belly up. And this fear has nothing to do with whether or not I am able to gamble online. It's the fear that some sanctimonious, greedy, protectionist twit suddenly seems to have gained the right to tell me where I can and cannot go, what I can and cannot see, when I'm on the WWW.

Apologies for being so wordy. I did try to use paragraphs. ... this whole thing is just as outrageous as the passage of the UIGEA was, and it makes me so mad I want to spit.

 

[Rusty]

No apologies necessary I think many people who understand this feel exactly the same way and you do not have to be a Kentuckian or even an American to feel worried.
Who the hell is this Guy to dictate what people can and can not do in their private lives.

Amazing isn't it? It always comes down to extorting money... there can be no other word for it. Intimidate, coerce, extort.... the pattern remains the same. If it wasn't about extorting money, it would be easier and less time consuming to simply block Kentuckians ISPs from connecting the 'offending' sites, would it not?

Protectionism reigns when they roll out the sacred cow -- horse racing. Mr Beshear is so intent on keeping ALL gambling money in his state, I wonder if he's considered a blockade at all roads leading out of Kentucky... no one allowed out who is driving to AC, or Illinois, or Tunica to gamble. Citizens entering the state required to declare if they're bringing in money won gambling out of state, such winnings would be declared illegal and would be confiscated by the state. Any casino in any state which allow Kentuckians to play would be fined. No flights out allowed to Vegas or Reno.... Ridiculous? that's precisely what Beshear is doing -- except because he's doing it on the internet, very few average citizens are paying attention.

I wonder how the WTO will feel about Beshear's stunt?

Also I find the timing of this thing interesting. Barney Frank and the Financial committees have their hands full to overflowing with the financial stability of our country's banks. So while all this is going on (banks failing, gov't bail outs, etc.) Beshear just so happens to decide to play Lord of the Internet, beginning with a trio of ideas horrifying to most who use the WWW -- internet censorship (wants to block Kentuckians' internet access to certain websites), cybersquating (they've already taken over two domains and threaten over 130 more), and cyberterrorism (do what I say or I'll take your domains).

Strangely enough... I find Beshear's actions, and the possibility that he may succeed, more frightening than the idea that my local banks may go belly up. And this fear has nothing to do with whether or not I am able to gamble online. It's the fear that some sanctimonious, greedy, protectionist twit suddenly seems to have gained the right to tell me where I can and cannot go, what I can and cannot see, when I'm on the WWW.

Apologies for being so wordy. I did try to use paragraphs. ... this whole thing is just as outrageous as the passage of the UIGEA was, and it makes me so mad I want to spit.

 

[Jackpot Factory]

Update from David Brickman at the Jackpot Factory

Hi everyone,

As most of you must have heard the .coms received another week to plead their case. The judge said this issues was complex. I think most people on this forum and in the online world understand its not so complex!

This ruling hasnt changed most plans for people in the industry. Nobody, especially Microgaming, can take a risk that one day their domains will simply be confiscated. If it doesnt happen in Kentucky it could happen in another state.

Stay tuned

All the best,

David Brickman
VP Player Affairs
Jackpot Factory Casino Group

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[RobWin]

Hi everyone,

As most of you must have heard the .coms received another week to plead their case. The judge said this issues was complex. I think most people on this forum and in the online world understand its not so complex!

This ruling hasnt changed most plans for people in the industry. Nobody, especially Microgaming, can take a risk that one day their domains will simply be confiscated. If it doesnt happen in Kentucky it could happen in another state.

Stay tuned

All the best,

David Brickman
VP Player Affairs
Jackpot Factory Casino Group

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So David, have you guys already re-registered your domains with foreign registars now ??

 

[lots0]

So David, have you guys already re-registered your domains with foreign registars now ??

Rob, I doubt any casino rep is going to answer a direct question in public right now about the actions they are currently taking.

Nobody, especially Microgaming, can take a risk that one day their domains will simply be confiscated.

Hmmmm... I like the sound of that.
Sounds like it's time to unleash the legal hounds from Hell...

 

[RobWin]

Rob, I doubt any casino rep is going to answer a direct question in public right now about the actions they are currently taking.


Hmmmm... I like the sound of that.
Sounds like it's time to unleash the legal hounds from Hell...

Yea, you probably right lots0, but still it is also easily looked up by using whois APNIC or some other several sites...I think once registered with a foreign registar I could not foresee anything that the casinos would have to be worried about concerning the US trying to cease their domain names then...

 

[alfred666]

I'd like to know wtf this proves? They took control of GoldenCasino.com last night, but the website is still up.

I love the "billing contact." Are they going to renew it once it comes due?

WHOIS as of Sep. 27th:
Registration Service Provided By: ANSWERABLE.COM
Contact: +1.3104837168
Website: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Domain Name: GOLDENCASINO.COM

Registrant:
Commonwealth of Kentucky
Michael Brown ()
125 Holmes Street
Frankfort
Kentucky,40601
US
Tel. +1.8592557080

Creation Date: 27-Oct-1997
Expiration Date: 19-Nov-2010

Domain servers in listed order:
ns2.surf4speed.com
ns1.surf4speed.com

Does anyone understand why the goldencasino domain was apparently released again by the original registrar after turning it over to Kentucky?

As of right now (Sep 27th), the domain is served by another registrar as well as a different registrant. There isn't much info on the new registrant, but from the bits you can see and the links you can make, this "seems" to be the owners of goldencasino again.

I understand that goldencasino confirmed not to take any further Kentucky business, but I seriously doubt that the Kentucky administration would turn the domain back right away, especially as they only have received it on the 25th.

Another explanation of this happening would be that goldencasino initiated a registrar change right after this issue became public (on the 22nd), which I'd assume they did, and the old registrar didn't put any kind of lock on the domain, despite handing it over to Kentucky as the registrant, resulting in the registrar change being approved "automatically" after the usual 5 days this process takes.
The above paragraph is pure speculation, but I find it pretty weird that the domain is in new hands and with a new registrar 2 days after being confiscated and handed over to the Kentucky authorities.

Anyone having an insight on this?

WHOIS as of Sep 27th:
[whois.PublicDomainRegistry.com]
Registration Service Provided By: FIRST ALPINA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
Contact: +66.29575

Domain Name: GOLDENCASINO.COM

Registrant:
Rosehip Ltd.
Steven Melkman (domains@rosehipnv.com)
Caribbean Suite
The Valley
Anguilla
null,TV1 11P
AI
Tel. +599.94611401

Creation Date: 27-Oct-1997
Expiration Date: 19-Nov-2010

Domain servers in listed order:
ns2.surf4speed.com
ns1.surf4speed.com

 

[jetset]

See post 61 in this thread - I don't have any specific inside info on this, but the company involved in those pre-court 'negotiations' with Kentucky lawyers was Golden Casino.com - that's been confirmed by the official Kentucky spokesperson.

 

[lots0]

Registration Service Provided By: FIRST ALPINA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
Contact: +66.29575

Domain Name: GOLDENCASINO.COM

Registrant:
Rosehip Ltd.
Steven Melkman ()
Caribbean Suite
The Valley
Anguilla
null,TV1 11P
AI
Tel. +599.94611401

Creation Date: 27-Oct-1997
Expiration Date: 19-Nov-2010

Domain servers in listed order:
ns2.surf4speed.com
ns1.surf4speed.com

Administrative Contact:
Rosehip Ltd.
Steven Melkman ()
Caribbean Suite
The Valley
Anguilla
null,TV1 11P
AI
Tel. +599.94611401

Technical Contact:
Rosehip Ltd.
Steven Melkman ()
Caribbean Suite
The Valley
Anguilla
null,TV1 11P
AI
Tel. +599.94611401

Billing Contact:
Rosehip Ltd.
Steven Melkman ()
Caribbean Suite
The Valley
Anguilla
null,TV1 11P
AI
Tel. +599.94611401

Status:LOCKED



***********************************

Note the "LOCKED" status.

Maybe the registrars, took a close look at this situation and decided on siding with those who butter their bread...

The current registrars FIRST ALPINA TECHNOLOGIES, INC. is located in the Netherlands and Hong Kong.

This is amazing from my point of view, as it usually takes more than a day or two for registration changes to propagate.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If any of this ends up affecting an EU online gambling company from offering it's services OUTSIDE THE USA, there will be another delegation from the EU to see those US polititians.

The US can no longer complain about countries such as China who "censor the internet", as this is exactly what THEY are trying to do. The US believes online gambling is against their national interests (revenue flowing abroad), whilst China feels that the campaign calling for Tibetan independence threatens the national interests of China. Each thinks the other is wrong, but that THEY are right.

This is NOT the first time the US has done this, a Nevada court allowed seizure of some Bodog domains, so the precedent has already been set. The effect on Bodog was minimal.

Apart from the sites named in this case, the business of the average US based domain name registrar is going to be impacted, with other site owners not wanting to risk that one day THEIR operation will be considered "illegal" by some US state or federal authority.
There has already been the threat of trade sanctions by Antigua and Barbuda over the US allowing it's home grown companies to offer some online gambling, but seeking to prevent competition from outside. The suggested sanction was for US copyrights to be unenforced within Antigua and Barbuda, and this would damage the music and film industry as it would provide for a "legitimate" host server(s) for what is regarded as "internet piracy" of film and musical content.

Here in Britain, we don't see why we should be "held to ransom" by these film and music companies by being forced to SUBSIDISE the far lower prices paid by other countries for the same content, yet at the same time have to WAIT LONGER than them to get it (legally).

If AMERICAN casinos one day get regulation of online subsidiaries, they should remember that the USA is NOT on the current "whitelist", and that it would be ILLEGAL for them to promote the operations within the EU, and the EU, miffed at the Kentucky manouevers, may even be arsed to ENFORCE it

 

[lots0]

I sent an email to the Governor of Kentucky that started all this crap, Steven Beshear. In the email, I tried to explain (in short simple terms so the politicians could understand) that what he was doing would undermine the entire www.

I also explained that what he was doing just simply would not work, from a technical point, that the websites would continue to operate and continue to take gamblers from Kentucky, until there was a State law in place that forbids gambling online.

Below is Governor Steven L. Beshear response to my email.

Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXXXX:

Thank you for contacting me regarding Internet gambling. By acting to stop illegal, unlicensed, and unregulated gambling sites from taking advantage of Kentuckians, my administration is enforcing current law, not creating new legislation. It is important to defend the citizens of Kentucky, particularly our youth, from deception and predatory practices. As unregulated Internet gambling is illegal in Kentucky, I believe it is our responsibility to move forward with this action. These illegal sites also threaten Kentucky's legal forms of gaming - in horse racing, through the lottery, and at churches through bingo and charitable gaming. I am interested in protecting these legal and highly regulated forms of gaming, which are so important to our state.

Your views are important to me, and I am grateful for your willingness to be involved in Kentucky's future. Please feel free to contact me whenever an issue is important to you.

Sincerely,



Steven L. Beshea

Please note that the Governor states that he is only enforcing current law. I would really like to know what law he is enforcing, so I sent him another email asking for that information...




Added........... My follow up to the Kentucky Governor's email to me.

Governor,

As you stated that you were only enforcing an existing state law, would you be so kind as to provide me with the specific law that forbids online gambling inside Kentucky.

I am afraid that my attorneys located in Kentucky are unable to find this specific law you are enforcing.

Thank You
Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

[winbig]

The wire act?

 

[lots0]

The wire act?

LOL... Yup, I do believe that Steven Beshear and cronies are stretching the 'law' a very very long way to come to this conclusion.

From what I've been told, the Governor is trying to say that because online gambling in not specifically allowed by Ky law, it is then excluded. Most lawyers find this argument a paper tiger that can easily be defeated in most any court.


BTW - I don't expect an answer from Ky to my follow up email.

 

[RobWin]

These illegal sites also threaten Kentucky's legal forms of gaming - in horse racing, through the lottery, and at churches through bingo and charitable gaming.

Hell, he must be talking about their local branch of the "Holy Rollers Casino" !!