I've a BTG/Bonanza Randomness Theory

trancemonkey

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Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
After thinking about this a bit further: even though the fact that the number indicates reel position and not 'predefined reelset', it doesn't change my original complaint. It enhances chances of winning combination (200 long reel which lands on position X and 1-7 of these blocks are visible). However, this DOESN'T change the fact that if the reelsets are not changed every spin, then every spin doesn't have an equal chance of winning. eg:

The first reelset is set to 200 of the same symbol (very unlikely, but basically possible). If this reelset is stuck for any amount of spins (eg. an hour), would you say I have equal chance in winning on every spin? (@trancemonkey , any opinion on this?)

As I said on my original post, the position of two 9s was the same after 40 minutes of play. How probable this is if the reelset was changed between the spins?

The bit in bold makes no sense whatsoever - why would reel positions change?

If i define a reel as:

1. 9
2. 9
3. J
4. K
5. 10
6. GOLD
7. K

The if the RNG picks 4, it will display a K at the top left position and then a 10 and GOLD below it (assuming 3 positions on a reel). These positions CAN NOT change. It doens't matter whether you play it for an hour, a month, or 10 years, position 4 will always display a K. The RNG just randomises the position displayed, as it should.

The reel band is fixed. The fact you see the same symbols at the same reel position is 100% proof of nothing more than position 44 has two 9's at it.

One the test ALL test houses do in my experience is that they force a specific number (sometimes force a seed) in to the RNG to make sure that the same outcome happens if the same number occurs to prove that the game does exactly the same thing with the same random number. For example, if you set a mersenne twister RNG to have a specific seed, you will get the same sequence of numbers - this way you can test to see if a game is doing what it should, because the sequence of games should always be the same if you start with the same seed.

Obviously under normal usage, you never use the same seed, and the seed is randomised from something that makes it impossible to guess / work out / know.
 

trancemonkey

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Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
After thinking about this a bit further: even though the fact that the number indicates reel position and not 'predefined reelset', it doesn't change my original complaint. It enhances chances of winning combination (200 long reel which lands on position X and 1-7 of these blocks are visible). However, this DOESN'T change the fact that if the reelsets are not changed every spin, then every spin doesn't have an equal chance of winning. eg:

The first reelset is set to 200 of the same symbol (very unlikely, but basically possible). If this reelset is stuck for any amount of spins (eg. an hour), would you say I have equal chance in winning on every spin? (@trancemonkey , any opinion on this?)

As I said on my original post, the position of two 9s was the same after 40 minutes of play. How probable this is if the reelset was changed between the spins?

I'm not trying to be an arse here, but before you post things that claim "PROOF", please at least first research exactly how slot maths works before you do so, as otherwise you are just blindly guessing.
 

manttih

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Nov 18, 2016
Location
Finland
Thanks again for the replies @trancemonkey ! Are you completely and absolutely sure the reelsets are fixed on Bonanza (not changed between sessions or in-play)? There are 10 symbols in this game (+ SCATTER if it is set on reel strips). As i said, there are max 200 reel positions, which means the reel is 200 symbols long. If the reels are fixed, this can be tested with whole lot of playing, keeping tabs of the appearing symbols and placing them on reels.

We have all seen block reels so we know they exist (eg a 7 9s on first reel blocking other wins) . If I would count the basic five symbols in blocks of 7 that would already take 35 symbol positions from the reel of 200. I just tested a couple of spins on Bonanza, focusing on reel 1:

- 9 K DIAMOND
- G A DIAMOND BLUE 9 DIAMOND
- 10 GREEN GREEN GREEN
- Q GREEN 9 GREEN RED
- BLUE QUEEN DIAMOND QUEEN KING
- Q K K A BLUE
- K GREEN J
- A A GREEN J BLUE
- A DIAMOND J
- A DIAMOND
- Q A DIAMOND K
... etc.

Wouldn't 200 positions be WAY too low? (especially if you calculate reels like Q GREEN 9 GREEN RED)

Sorry if my questions are stupid :)
 

manttih

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
Location
Finland
I'm not trying to be an arse here, but before you post things that claim "PROOF", please at least first research exactly how slot maths works before you do so, as otherwise you are just blindly guessing.

Like I said, thread title can be changed (as I believe it already has been changed).

As I said before, all casinos have declined my requests to proof the randomness of games (or refused to tell me the name of the testing agencies so I could contact them). So, could you please tell me how I can do research on how slot maths work? Isn't there a saying, don't believe everything you read online? :) All the proof any player have are their own sessions + forums (eg. bonanza forum with 900 pages complaining about same things I did).
 

trancemonkey

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Location
United Kingdom
Thanks again for the replies @trancemonkey ! Are you completely and absolutely sure the reelsets are fixed on Bonanza (not changed between sessions or in-play)? There are 10 symbols in this game (+ SCATTER if it is set on reel strips). As i said, there are max 200 reel positions, which means the reel is 200 symbols long. If the reels are fixed, this can be tested with whole lot of playing, keeping tabs of the appearing symbols and placing them on reels.

We have all seen block reels so we know they exist (eg a 7 9s on first reel blocking other wins) . If I would count the basic five symbols in blocks of 7 that would already take 35 symbol positions from the reel of 200. I just tested a couple of spins on Bonanza, focusing on reel 1:

- 9 K DIAMOND
- G A DIAMOND BLUE 9 DIAMOND
- 10 GREEN GREEN GREEN
- Q GREEN 9 GREEN RED
- BLUE QUEEN DIAMOND QUEEN KING
- Q K K A BLUE
- K GREEN J
- A A GREEN J BLUE
- A DIAMOND J
- A DIAMOND
- Q A DIAMOND K
... etc.

Wouldn't 200 positions be WAY too low? (especially if you calculate reels like Q GREEN 9 GREEN RED)

Sorry if my questions are stupid :)

it is entirely possible that they have crammed everything in to 200 positions. It's also more likely that they have multiple sets of reel bands:

Set 1 (85% chance):
1. 9
2. 9
3. J
4. K
5. 10
6. GOLD
7. K

Set 2 (15% chance):
1. Q
2. Q
3. 9
4. 10
5. K
6. K
7. 9

At the start of a spin, the game would decide whether to use set 1 or set 2 (based on a chance) and then would pick reel positions for that set of reels.

This is a) legal and b) very common
 

trancemonkey

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Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Like I said, thread title can be changed (as I believe it already has been changed).

As I said before, all casinos have declined my requests to proof the randomness of games (or refused to tell me the name of the testing agencies so I could contact them). So, could you please tell me how I can do research on how slot maths work? Isn't there a saying, don't believe everything you read online? :) All the proof any player have are their own sessions + forums (eg. bonanza forum with 900 pages complaining about same things I did).

Here is a link to the remote technical standards for the UKGC, which tells you the kind of tests that are performed, and all the rules games providers have to adhere to to release games in the UK.

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Here is a link to the website of a very clever guy, known as the Wizard of Odds:

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This will explain how slots work, and he even deconstructs some games and shows the reel bands for them

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TM
 

dunover

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You design slots to ensure the desired long-term RTP and volatility are achieved. If you look at the reel maps, yes, maybe it's appearing possible to get 56,780 ways of kings for a 90k+ times bet win, but the result would never be possible as those reel permutations would be essentially voided. In this case it's likely that is achieved by limiting the random rows (megaways) that could appear for those reel stop positions, therefore you could only get say 464 ways maximum. People make the mistake of looking at reel maps and then assuming that every outcome is possible all the time, when for the balance of the game it would be madness to have it set up like that. I've seen a screenie of Bonanza with a 4400x bet base game hit of 6OAK red gems, but I bet my life this would not be allowed to occur in the bonus when you've reached a 20x multiplier say. Same as the full megaways reels don't occur in the feature it seems.
 

Halvor

Experienced Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2018
Location
Malta
Like I said, thread title can be changed (as I believe it already has been changed).

As I said before, all casinos have declined my requests to proof the randomness of games (or refused to tell me the name of the testing agencies so I could contact them). So, could you please tell me how I can do research on how slot maths work? Isn't there a saying, don't believe everything you read online? :) All the proof any player have are their own sessions + forums (eg. bonanza forum with 900 pages complaining about same things I did).
Trance have covered most of your questions already. But to clarify a couple of things here:

The casinos do not assign the testing lab for the games. The games are tested by independent labs on the request of the game provider. The licensing, testing and hosting of the games does not take place on the casinos end.

What testing lab my company use for example is most likely not the same as Trance's company.

As for your request to proof the randomness of the games, this is the testing labs job and nothing you will be able to do. No game provider will hand over their maths to you do conduct your own testing. However games for regulated markets do come with a testing certificate as a proof of the games fairness.

And I apologize if I'm wrong here, but it seems you might think the reels are decided at random. However the reel set is decided beforehand, and the position of the symbols on the given reel set will not change. Even if a provider run multiple reelsets on the game this is legal. As for the argument of getting "unlucky" reelsets in such cases, what if you get the lucky one multiple times in a row instead? :)
 

manttih

Newbie member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
Location
Finland
Thanks you all for your responses. I will read this discussion thoroughly trough when I have the time (and also look forward to other people's experiences / opinions).

@Halvor and @dunover . I thought the reels were indeed random. If they are predefined, then no problem there . Although one might argue it takes all the potential out of these megaways -games (as we are led to believe by the layout etc. that all the reels indeed are random and all combinations possible). Also, if certain combinations can be blocked on 20xmultiplier, shouldn't it say so on the rules or helpsheet? :)
 

Masquerade67

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Mar 10, 2018
Location
South
Thanks you all for your responses. I will read this discussion thoroughly trough when I have the time (and also look forward to other people's experiences / opinions).

@Halvor and @dunover . I thought the reels were indeed random. If they are predefined, then no problem there . Although one might argue it takes all the potential out of these megaways -games (as we are led to believe by the layout etc. that all the reels indeed are random and all combinations possible). Also, if certain combinations can be blocked on 20xmultiplier, shouldn't it say so on the rules or helpsheet? :)

I would imagine there's a sanity check on each spin (+ any additional cascades) before that spin was presented to the casino and the punter. If it was above a pre-determined win % then re-select from the RNG.

There must be loads of eventualities where combinations in the base would make the bonus seem pale by comparison ?

Bonanza - 'nuff said :)
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
Thanks again for the replies @trancemonkey ! Are you completely and absolutely sure the reelsets are fixed on Bonanza (not changed between sessions or in-play)? There are 10 symbols in this game (+ SCATTER if it is set on reel strips). As i said, there are max 200 reel positions, which means the reel is 200 symbols long. If the reels are fixed, this can be tested with whole lot of playing, keeping tabs of the appearing symbols and placing them on reels.

We have all seen block reels so we know they exist (eg a 7 9s on first reel blocking other wins) . If I would count the basic five symbols in blocks of 7 that would already take 35 symbol positions from the reel of 200. I just tested a couple of spins on Bonanza, focusing on reel 1:

- 9 K DIAMOND
- G A DIAMOND BLUE 9 DIAMOND
- 10 GREEN GREEN GREEN
- Q GREEN 9 GREEN RED
- BLUE QUEEN DIAMOND QUEEN KING
- Q K K A BLUE
- K GREEN J
- A A GREEN J BLUE
- A DIAMOND J
- A DIAMOND
- Q A DIAMOND K
... etc.

Wouldn't 200 positions be WAY too low? (especially if you calculate reels like Q GREEN 9 GREEN RED)

Sorry if my questions are stupid :)


Yawn! @manttih Did try sending you a PM but your not able to receive them :( I have some answers for ya.
 

Jono777

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I'm no expert and

i) I have no proof, don't need any its common sense / gambling experience
ii) not for a minute suggesting anything is rigged

however...

There is no way on this planet that

i) Bonanza (or most other Megaways slots for that matter) has fixed reel strips
ii) There are only 2 sets to randomly pick from upon pressing 'spin'

IF (and I REALLY don't think they are) the reel strips are fixed, then there would be a LOT more than 2 sets, the random result would have to be

i) Firstly chosen from a batch of reel strips, perhaps as many as triple figures
ii) Secondly where on that particular reel strip to come to rest and display required symbols for that spin.

Although 'text talk' can be sometimes hard to express oneself, I hope others get my point and I feel I have a very valid point and am not just posting random gibberish.

Edit: After thought: - If SET reel strips as low as just 2 were used then how about this....

Using the GOLD trigger as an example, had anyone ever seen 2 identical feature triggers where both the megaways are identical as well as the symbols surrounding the G-O-L-D scatters??

I for one never have, including self play, screenshots, streams and YT which also suggest my theory which I've posted many times about the strips been generated brand new each and every spin to be somewhere near spot on.

As stated I am describing my thoughts on how the RNG displays the result rather than anything sinister.
 
Last edited:

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
One thing is for sure, the cascading reels are not part of the reel displayed. Hard to explain clearly so I will use numbers to make it as easy as possible.

Reel 1 is chosen symbols 1- 200. RNG chooses position 1 (4 symbols displayed). Symbols shown 1, G, 2 and 3. You hit a win that involves 1. Cascade occurs and O drops to replace the 1. You now have reel 1 reading O, G, 2 and 3.

We know the cascade isn’t genuine because if the 7 symbol window had been picked in position 200 originally then it would have read as follows:-
O, 1, G, 2, 3, 4,5.
We know this cannot happen on an original spin as 2 scatters can never appear on the same real unless a cascade has occurred.

Similarly games like DOA (original) and Napoleon even if they use pre set reel strips certainly do not display them that way. Reason being the same scenario you see a scatter on the bounce of a reel ( just above the 15 symbols in view yet you have already landed a scatter on that reel in the centre position. Therefore the visual displayed represents something that cannot appear in the window, which is scatter, K, scatter. This cannot happen, as again two scatters cannot appear in view on the same reel.
 

Masquerade67

Newbie member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
South
Maybe, when a cascade occurs, the RNG roots the position of the cascading part of the reel ?
Scatters are removed automatically and the reel-band position shifts to close the gap ? (Similar fudging as with preventing monster wins over a set %)

If I was to step back and look at this from a programmer's perspective, I would want things to be as simple as possible. It's easier to maintain, certify the maths, justify its behaviour and I could re-use the logic elsewhere. It would also minimise the unexpected bug coming along and then getting the casino 'heavies' on the doorstep of your game company. For this reason, I think the design of the reels would be fairly static - perhaps two or three to allow that old pub-fruity nostalgia of "It's going to pay", "It's on a roll", "It's being a bi-atch today", etc.
 

curremon

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Based on what ive seen on long runs without feature im damn sure i didnt have even chance to get feature on those runs.. game is just in cycle where D doesnt exist on reels.
 

Big Time Gaming

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Location
Syndey
I think @trancemonkey has answered everything in enough detail, thanks @trancemonkey I will say this though If you can find two different instances of the same reel stops in Bonanza, that would be a miracle, Bonanza is not some tacky tombola, it's pure math, operating against a certified RNG.

The game is also 4 years old next month I'm in the process of speaking to @pereblue about a very special competition to celebrate the latest Bonanza-versary! So watch this space, the official Bonanza thread will more than likely be the comps home, so check back for further details. Sorry for the absence, not sure if it genuinely makes the heart grow fonder but here's to trying!

This is going to be a big one!
 
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