Is This Really A Possibility?

[weesie]

Hi,

I am in a discussion in another forum and I would like some input from some CM "pros".

This person said:

"""Now, since there are a lot more players AND its legal, very mainstream and normal to have that up and down %(prcntge)scale of winning/losing ie..they can swing that 97% to 96.7% . I forget what its called but you guys know what I mean....anyway, my point is with more people joining, of course they would higher the % to the newest players just as they did when we first joined so they would come back. Then it goes around and everyone gets there turn. """


I replied to that comment as:

""""I interpret the above part of your post as """the casino LETS new players win""""

Pretty far out theory. If that were the case, and players knew this, why would they come back?"""


Their reply:


""""Not "let them win" I was speaking about the minor % adjustment thingy that casinos are allowed to use and it was just a personal opinion.""""


Hopefully it IS just their personal opinion and not a true possibility.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Dinahnana]

Hi,

I am in a discussion in another forum and I would like some input from some CM "pros".

This person said:

"""Now, since there are a lot more players AND its legal, very mainstream and normal to have that up and down %(prcntge)scale of winning/losing ie..they can swing that 97% to 96.7% . I forget what its called but you guys know what I mean....anyway, my point is with more people joining, of course they would higher the % to the newest players just as they did when we first joined so they would come back. Then it goes around and everyone gets there turn. """


I replied to that comment as:

""""I interpret the above part of your post as """the casino LETS new players win""""

Pretty far out theory. If that were the case, and players knew this, why would they come back?"""


Their reply:


""""Not "let them win" I was speaking about the minor % adjustment thingy that casinos are allowed to use and it was just a personal opinion.""""


Hopefully it IS just their personal opinion and not a true possibility.

Thoughts anyone?

AFAIK the RTP is set in stone by game providers. MG powered casino operators cannot tweak the RTP. Neither can Playtech and I am sure the others.

RTG have 3 RTP settings but have to request from RTG which one they want.

So my opinion is that these people have their tin foil hats on

 

[weesie]

So my opinion is that these people have their tin foil hats on

That's what I think too!

Thank you

 

[cpdnd31]

Well now wait --what if it is an independent game operator? I have a feeling I know what casino she is referring to, if it is indeed this casino they have no one to ask permission from. They make and own their games so their is a possibility of this scenario. I'm not saying I think this is happening I'm just saying don't bunch all casinos with same rules.

 

[weesie]

Well now wait --what if it is an independent game operator? I have a feeling I know what casino she is referring to, if it is indeed this casino they have no one to ask permission from. They make and own their games so their is a possibility of this scenario. I'm not saying I think this is happening I'm just saying don't bunch all casinos with same rules.

You probably do know. I guess that's why the possibility of this happening is bothering me.

 

[cpdnd31]

That's the one thing that bothers me the most is with major brands their are rtp setting rules that they have to follow because they lease and or bought software. With major brands they for example rtg -- are monitored by rtg brands-- so all rtg casinos have to follow their rules before they become a rtg casino-- I hope that made sense. However with independent casinos who is their to lay out and monitor the rules of rtp settings and payout? When you make your own games and settings you are keeping in mind that it is your casino you are making it for so I think that is a casino advantage right there -- If you know what you need and want then you make it that way.

 

[weesie]

That's the one thing that bothers me the most is with major brands their are rtp setting rules that they have to follow because they lease and or bought software. With major brands they for example rtg -- are monitored by rtg brands-- so all rtg casinos have to follow their rules before they become a rtg casino-- I hope that made sense. However with independent casinos who is their to lay out and monitor the rules of rtp settings and payout? When you make your own games and settings you are keeping in mind that it is your casino you are making it for so I think that is a casino advantage right there -- If you know what you need and want then you make it that way.

But, if they CAN do something like this......... suppose you are on their "shit" list for a while........ can they "adjust" your RTP to where you lose more than the average player?

I cringe at the possibility

 

[Jasminebed]

There are very few casinos I've cashed out on my first deposit.

And I'm so darned nice and friendly, everyone should let me win.

That said, SUBs are often more player friendly than subsequent offers, which might increase the player's chance of making a cashout, or at least an extended playing session.

Our own behaviour often stands between us and a cashout too. I myself will take my first opportunity to cash out at a new casino (whether it is first or fifth deposit) to get the verification over with and test the cashout procedure. I normally wouldn't cash out $80 on a $50 deposit, but I might for a first withdrawal.

I think they need tin foil hats myself. And tin foil hat or not, if they truly believe this, they should quit playing somewhere you figure is cheating you.

 

[cpdnd31]

To be honest I don't know of they can do it or not? That goes back to independent casino has no one watching them.

 

[weesie]

Well, it sounds crazy to me but this person has played there since the beginning (they say)......... where would they get such an idea or opinion, as they worded it?

But if there is any chance of it being possible I certainly wouldn't want to continue playing there.

(Or being a big time suck-up )

 

[Dinahnana]

I know there have been a few independent casinos with propriety software that could be altered in the past (be the dealer being one I think) they are in the rogue pit.

The only independent casinos that I can think of are 3Dice and Bodog (their RTG slots anyway since they are no longer connected to RTG). Both of these casinos are above reproach IMO. I don't believe they would do anything to manipulate their slots.

Can you give us the name of the casino Weesie?

 

[weesie]

Osulle, I would rather not.

I would like to think they would not do such a thing but, I am in this discussion with this person and wanted to run it by some of the people here.

Maybe get some other opinions on the subject

 

[cpdnd31]

Are slot land and winaday independent? As well as some rivals I thought.

 

[BMWSTACK]

I know there have been a few independent casinos with propriety software that could be altered in the past (be the dealer being one I think) they are in the rogue pit.

The only independent casinos that I can think of are 3Dice and Bodog (their RTG slots anyway since they are no longer connected to RTG). Both of these casinos are above reproach IMO. I don't believe they would do anything to manipulate their slots.

Can you give us the name of the casino Weesie?

Its 3dice. It is based upon someone making a post in their forum and coming up with theories. Actually it wasn't really even theories just somebody rambling on and on.

I am still waiting for the 3dice is run by aliens conspiracy.

 

[Jasminebed]

Well, in the beginning at 3Dice it was far easier to win a tournament, but that was down to fewer players.

I wasn't there in the very beginning, but there have been changes to comps, minimum amounts for certain withdrawal methods, and the introduction of the rainy day fund, which can make it harder to cashout. It is something players can opt out of though.

 

[Dinahnana]

Osulle, I would rather not.

I would like to think they would not do such a thing but, I am in this discussion with this person and wanted to run it by some of the people here.

Maybe get some other opinions on the subject

No worries I can respect that!
Still I think this person may be a bit of a conspiracy theorist unless he works or worked for the casino in question

 

[incrediblestuff]

Weesie, without a doubt it would be technically possible, on proprietary software much more so then on the provider dependant software, but it would be very hard to conceal in my opinion. Also the Casino that would try it, would be silly as all the games in they offer come with house edge, meaning they will make money regardless, as long as they have a healthy and active playerbase.

Of course if you start to speculate, you could think of many scenarios where highly advanced techs and programmers would invest their time in the deception of players, and test this out on a regular basis, maybe with a new Casino opening, targeting a few new sign ups, seeing if they get noticed, and all under a hard to trace shadow company with a shoddy license etc. so when they would be noticed, they quickly disappear, Casino and all. but the accredited Casinos here, at least the ones i play at, are in my complete trust list: i believe looking at the past scandals and busts, over time players would notice such things and then such an operator would most definitely be busted and their name smeared through the mud, with in irreparable dent in their once good standing.

So i don't think your in danger if your talking about the Accredited list here:

The only casino i could think of you could mean would be 3Dice, where i myself happened to win pretty big on my first deposit, and after playing there for a longer time, i also got a few people saying the same thing to me in the chat (p.m. of course) i did question their theory to a certain extent, but more for amusement then anything else:

Think about it, let's assume we are talking about 3Dice, and they would have a way to give all first depositors a 150% RTP setting, which would not even ensure the player wins in the end, (i know for a fact that not all first depositors win on 3Dice) and they were set back to the normal RTP after that, it would become quite well known after a few years, especially since it is a very social casino where players interact, because people talk and it would just be too obvious...

And, let's theorize further, imagine they only did it every 9 out of 15 people, or maybe even targeted (depending on deposit size, age or background check - and we are walking into tin foil territory right here) do you really think that if they were so unscrupulously deceptive, they would not also monitor p.m.'s and swiftly get rid of persons that would talk about things like that? or let them win so they are proven wrong?

To me it is not unthinkable but most unlikely, and as stated, if you are playing in the Casinos listed here, i wouldn't worry about it one bit!

Always keep an eye open of course








.

 

[Dinahnana]

Are slot land and winaday independent? As well as some rivals I thought.

Forgot about Slotland and Winaday (my brain is on weekend mode). I wouldn't think they would get up to that sort of thing with their slots either. They have been around longer than most casinos so if they were doing something like that they would have been outed ages ago. They are pretty solid too.

Rivals may be independent but still the software is Rival powered as AFAIK cannot be manipulated by the operator.

Anyway I am going to respect Weesies decision in not telling us the casino name by not speculating further.
The player that Weesie is talking to is probably a little bit paranoid

 

[BMWSTACK]

Forgot about Slotland and Winaday (my brain is on weekend mode). I wouldn't think they would get up to that sort of thing with their slots either. They have been around longer than most casinos so if they were doing something like that they would have been outed ages ago. They are pretty solid too and I think and are big sponsors of Gone Gambling which Bryan owns and he wouldn't put up with that sort of thing.

Rivals may be independent but still the software is Rival powered as AFAIK cannot be manipulated by the operator.

Anyway I am going to respect Weesies decision in not telling us the casino name by not speculating further.

Yeah I already named it, I was probably typing my post while she posted that she wasn't going to name them.

Either way it probably helps more knowing its 3dice because obviously they will not be changing indviduals RTP

 

[weesie]

Its 3dice. It is based upon someone making a post in their forum and coming up with theories. Actually it wasn't really even theories just somebody rambling on and on.

I am still waiting for the 3dice is run by aliens conspiracy.

It may well be someone "rambling on" but since they have been with the site since the beginning....I had to wonder.

 

[weesie]

Weesie, without a doubt it would be technically possible, on proprietary software much more so then on the provider dependant software, but it would be very hard to conceal in my opinion. Also the Casino that would try it, would be silly as all the games in they offer come with house edge, meaning they will make money regardless, as long as they have a healthy and active playerbase.

Of course if you start to speculate, you could think of many scenarios where highly advanced techs and programmers would invest their time in the deception of players, and test this out on a regular basis, maybe with a new Casino opening, targeting a few new sign ups, seeing if they get noticed, and all under a hard to trace shadow company with a shoddy license etc. so when they would be noticed, they quickly disappear, Casino and all. but the accredited Casinos here, at least the ones i play at, are in my complete trust list: i believe looking at the past scandals and busts, over time players would notice such things and then such an operator would most definitely be busted and their name smeared through the mud, with in irreparable dent in their once good standing.

So i don't think your in danger if your talking about the Accredited list here:

The only casino i could think of you could mean would be 3Dice, where i myself happened to win pretty big on my first deposit, and after playing there for a longer time, i also got a few people saying the same thing to me in the chat (p.m. of course) i did question their theory to a certain extent, but more for amusement then anything else:

Think about it, let's assume we are talking about 3Dice, and they would have a way to give all first depositors a 150% RTP setting, which would not even ensure the player wins in the end, (i know for a fact that not all first depositors win on 3Dice) and they were set back to the normal RTP after that, it would become quite well known after a few years, especially since it is a very social casino where players interact, because people talk and it would just be too obvious...

And, let's theorize further, imagine they only did it every 9 out of 15 people, or maybe even targeted (depending on deposit size, age or background check - and we are walking into tin foil territory right here) do you really think that if they were so unscrupulously deceptive, they would not also monitor p.m.'s and swiftly get rid of persons that would talk about things like that? or let them win so they are proven wrong?

To me it is not unthinkable but most unlikely, and as stated, if you are playing in the Casinos listed here, i wouldn't worry about it one bit!

Always keep an eye open of course








.

Incrediblestuff,

Thank you for an in-depth answer.

I would like to think no site would do that..........just wondered what others might think on the subject.

 

[Dinahnana]

Incrediblestuff,

Thank you for an in-depth answer.

I would like to think no site would do that..........just wondered what others might think on the subject.

Now Weesie you can go tell them they are off their rocker

 

[incrediblestuff]

Incrediblestuff,

Thank you for an in-depth answer.

I would like to think no site would do that..........just wondered what others might think on the subject.

Very welcome
I 'd like to think it too, and can add that most of the good Casinos we know are run by intelligent business men and women, as opposed to the on average significantly less intelligent scamming persons

 

[weesie]

Forgot about Slotland and Winaday (my brain is on weekend mode). I wouldn't think they would get up to that sort of thing with their slots either. They have been around longer than most casinos so if they were doing something like that they would have been outed ages ago. They are pretty solid too.

Rivals may be independent but still the software is Rival powered as AFAIK cannot be manipulated by the operator.

Anyway I am going to respect Weesies decision in not telling us the casino name by not speculating further.
The player that Weesie is talking to is probably a little bit paranoid

Thank you Osulle for respecting my decision. I didn't think I needed to say which site it was since I was asking if it was even possible, let alone probable.

Some would rather dwell on "where" rather than the question at hand.......... which was... Is it possible?

 

[cpdnd31]

Thanks BMW I just read the forum. All I can say is consider the source. She would not be a person I would listen to when it comes to these matters. That's the thing I hate about 3dice forum. Emotions and math never add up. Lol

 

[BMWSTACK]

Thanks BMW I just read the forum. All I can say is consider the source. She would not be a person I would listen to when it comes to these matters. That's the thing I hate about 3dice forum. Emotions and math never add up. Lol

Ok, I wouldn't listen to anyone with some of these crazier theories, and I do see that person is a banned member here.

Yes the "vent your frustration" thread is like a Jerry Springer episode, very entertaining though.

 

[dunover]

Right, I'm getting through so much tin foil this week there's shortly going to be a worldwide commodity price hike....

Firstly, we know that platform software supplied to the casinos by third parties is fixed in TRTP and gameplay, excepting RTG's '3 choices' software.

Next; Imagine a land mechanical slot - fixed physical reels, and separate stops that produce a 95% TRTP. For that to be adjusted, the reels would have to be changed via more/less symbols of one kind or another, a complex operation as the paytables would presumably remain fixed.

OK, this exact same slot above but online: For speed and effect separate reel-stops aren't necessary - the RNG picks an outcome from the pool and a subsequent graphic reflects this. The reel strips and paytables are exactly the same, as is the 95% RTP. I know some don't agree with me here, but most players accept that this is why the reel graphics seem 'gimped' on most software, especially WMS and 3Dice. It's because a win value is selected, then a graphic is produced to represent ANY reel combination that can produce that particular outcome.

Now, we want to change this ONLINE version from 95% to 90% RTP. The beauty of online slots is that NO adjustment to the reel-strips would therefore be necessary - simply the 'pool' of outcomes is tweaked to produce more low-return or zero results. The RNG works exactly the same, but in the long term will only produce a 90% RTP.

In computer program terms this would be easy, simply making a small edit in one line of master code.

So, to answer Weesies point, is it possible? Yes, absolutely. And possible to enact for the whole game or just one person's pool of values? Yes, easily.

Now the moot point is that 99% of sites rely on fixed 3rd. party software which is independently verified, so it would not be an option for the casino to adjust it, but only to choose a tighter/looser pool for their games in the case of RTG. The other softwares don't offer the RTG choice.
However, in the case of a site offering it's own bespoke software i.e. 3dice then the chance is there. (I use this example because 3dice springs to mind as a rare site that uses and offers it's own bespoke games and there is no insinuation that this impeccable operation has or would do such a thing!)

IF a site did this if it could, then it would be in breach of every licence and software verification going and would be licensed in bandit-country.

So, possible? Very. Does it actually go on? I'd hate to see it proven.

 

[weesie]

Thank you dunover,

I knew I could count on you when it comes to "tin foil hat" theories.

I don't KNOW the person personally, but I had to ask out of curiosity!

So, are you selling much "tin foil hat" stock these days?

Maybe I should invest.

 

[dunover]

Thank you dunover,

I knew I could count on you when it comes to "tin foil hat" theories.

I don't KNOW the person personally, but I had to ask out of curiosity!

So, are you selling much "tin foil hat" stock these days?

Maybe I should invest.

In this case though I felt compelled to dispel this type of foil hat-talk. It takes over 5 square yards of foil to make one hat, and that's without antenna. Go figure.

 

[john39]

Reminds me of when people say they do not want to use there player cards at land based casinos thinking that the payback % can be somehow tied to there card

 

[cpdnd31]

You know this thread brings up some good points.

A: The benefits of big casino brands.

1. With major brands you know there is a set of standards that all have to abide by. Yes there is rouge out there but for the most part, when playing at a major brand casino you know that the software is tested and monitored by a 3rd party. (or individual party )

2. With major brands you can play a game at different casinos like RTG for example: Club world, Tops and Inet bet. The same game may pay better at one of the 3 casinos. However you can tell if game is off because the game can be played at different places. You have a choice.

3. Big brand = big brother watching- (does knowing there is someone watching and or monitoring game pays and rtp settings make you feel better about playing there?)


B: Independent casino:

1. They own there own software.
2. They have standards set however who sets them and monitors them?
3. They have games audited, but is it a one time OK the game passes set standards, or is it a continual thing?
4. Smaller casino where they learn you name and they know how you deposit and play. Does this make a difference to you?


Now I'm not just talking about 3 dice. There are other independent casino brands out there-- Like Liberty slots, Slotland, bodog, and others.

So now I guess the ? is at least for me which do you prefer a major brand that has to follow guide lines. A smaller brand that has built a reputation.

Do you think one is better then the other. Do you hold a loyalty to the one who knows you by name because it is more intimate of a setting?

Is there a difference between major and independent for we have all read the tin foil hat theories on major brands and independent brands.

Any thoughts?

 

[weesie]

All very good questions. That person is still saying it's possible. They even said to check at CM because they can explain it better.

Anyway..... you get where I am cpdnd31.

Just wondered

 

[rena35]

this whole thread is great and very informative. I m so glad this question was asked here because i too wondered the same thing as a rather new depositor at 3 dice. I do not have the honor of being a player there since the beginning so i am still learning.I wish the un said person could read this thread but unfortunately he or she is banned. I would love to see their response.

 

[cpdnd31]

copy and paste!

 

[blonde]

Let me put my two cents in, not worth much I know but here goes....first of all someone that is "reporting live" from somewhere, why in hades would anyone listen to what their "perspective" on 3dice is?

Second of all, refer to my first of all statement, I am lost for words LOL

 

[Dinahnana]

So it's possible, just not probable.

 

[The Dude]

So it's possible, just not probable.

Possible to do what?

 

[dunover]

Possible to do what?

Weesie started the thread quoting a foil hatter from another forum: "Is it possible for the casino to 'tweak' payouts higher for a new player to entice them?" If you have bespoke software, yes it is possible. Most things are possible.

The gist I get was a player on 3dice was having a kind of breakdown on their chat, presumably because they won then lost later on.

So, possible, but extremely unlikely and especially so in the case of 3dice....