Is RTG fixed, rigged, whatever?

[RobWin]

So let me ask a silly question now....

Does everyone still believe that RTG Casino Software is Truly Random and the casino operators cannot tweak with it ??

How many more stories are out there like Laurie's that the folks are too embarrassed to admit...

If they have the balls to extort money from a big depositor like Laurie I really don't think that anyone could convince me that the operators cannot also tweak with the software too since there is obviously, absolutely no oversight whatsoever from RTG themselves !!

 

[aka23]

So let me ask a silly question now....

Does everyone still believe that RTG Casino Software is Truly Random and the casino operators cannot tweak with it ??

How many more stories are out there like Laurie's that the folks are too embarrassed to admit...[/B]

Operators can adjust the payouts of RTG games, often choosing from one of 3 pre-set levels. However, this has little to do with whether RTG is random or not. I also do not consider Palace of Chance extorting players evidence of non-random software. Instead it only shows that RTG is licensing their software to some rogue operations, likely anyone who pays the fees.

 

[Rusty]

Operators can adjust the payouts of RTG games, often choosing from one of 3 pre-set levels. However, this has little to do with whether RTG is random or not. I also do not consider Palace of Chance extorting players evidence of non-random software. Instead it only shows that RTG is licensing their software to some rogue operations, likely anyone who pays the fees.

I agree that RTG selling their software to operators who they know rip the players off does not in itself prove the slots are not random but it does prove they are quite happy to let the players be ripped off with their software.

As for this mythical Three set payouts, where does this information come from?

RTG is the answer, so we need to be willing to believe that a software provider that assumes no responsibility for its product and is in business with known crooks, a software provider that turns its back on scammed players, a software provider that incorporates into the software a means of altering payouts is in fact imposing restrictions on Casinos as to what levels of payout they can set and these can be no lower than 93%.

The question as to how random the slots are is moot if we believe the payouts can be altered by the Casinos.
Given all the evidence there is only one logical conclusion IMO.

Consider this thread that details a RTG Casino that cheats its customers out of their money.An RTG Casino that uses bribes and extortion as part of its business plan and what is the reaction of the software provider?
Where are the RTG representatives telling us how much they are shocked and dismayed by this?
Why are they not telling us they are no longer in business with POC and all other rogue RTG ?
Why is there no one here apologising profusely and explaining what they are going to do to ensure this never happens again?

So anyone who wants to believe RTG games are fair and post that belief here should have a good answer to all the above questions first.

Aka I am not saying you are promoting this idea I am just using your post, which I essentially agree with, as a lead in.

 

[winbig]

And who's to say that these RTG rogues don't have programmers working for them to reverse engineer the software to exploit it to their advantage?

 

[RobWin]

Operators can adjust the payouts of RTG games, often choosing from one of 3 pre-set levels. However, this has little to do with whether RTG is random or not. I also do not consider Palace of Chance extorting players evidence of non-random software. Instead it only shows that RTG is licensing their software to some rogue operations, likely anyone who pays the fees.

See Winbig's and Rustys posts above, my sentiments are the same...

 

[babs7262]

Maybe the ONLY true and honest way to find out how RTG's work is to buy one. Its a shame, I bet if we put all the money together that this whole group has gambled, we could of bought, find out the truth, made a profit and sell it by now

 

[Rusty]

Maybe the ONLY true and honest way to find out how RTG's work is to buy one. Its a shame, I bet if we put all the money together that this whole group has gambled, we could of bought, find out the truth, made a profit and sell it by now

Made a profit using RTG, perish the thought!
Where are your standards Babs

A great idea would be for a Casino owned by a players syndicate though.

I would happily design the slots, I already have some 5 reel completed.

We would need a good graphics artist a database and networking expert a good web designer etc but it is certainly achievable.
The hard part is finding enough people with the proper qualifications and will.

The logistics are difficult but could be overcome.
Spread the word and who knows

 

[aka23]

As for this mythical Three set payouts, where does this information come from?

It's based on RTG marketing documentation as well as posts from RTG operators on this site. I list specific numbers on my site. For slots, I believe it is a choice of 95%, 97.5% and a lower one (probably 92.5%). There are other games without set payout option and instead a choice of rule differences. For example, in blackjack RTG operators can choose any # of decks from 1 to 255 and can make those changes on the fly. However, a reputable casino probably wouldn't change the game rules without first informing the players.

Consider this thread that details a RTG Casino that cheats its customers out of their money.An RTG Casino that uses bribes and extortion as part of its business plan and what is the reaction of the software provider?
Where are the RTG representatives telling us how much they are shocked and dismayed by this?
Why are they not telling us they are no longer in business with POC and all other rogue RTG ?
Why is there no one here apologising profusely and explaining what they are going to do to ensure this never happens again?

So anyone who wants to believe RTG games are fair and post that belief here should have a good answer to all the above questions first.

RTG seems to have a hands off approach and let casino operators do whatever they want once they've bought the software. Most of us probably think this is a poor business decision, but making a poor business decision about software licensing doesn't mean their software is rigged. There are also reputable casinos that use RTG like Bodog, Club World, and iNetBet. Would these reputable groups choose to use the SW, if they knew it was rigged?

 

[Rusty]

It's based on RTG marketing documentation as well as posts from RTG operators on this site. I list specific numbers on my site. For slots, I believe it is a choice of 95%, 97.5% and a lower one (probably 92.5%). There are other games without set payout option and instead a choice of rule differences. For example, in blackjack RTG operators can choose any # of decks from 1 to 255 and can make those changes on the fly. However, a reputable casino probably wouldn't change the game rules without first informing the players.



RTG seems to have a hands off approach and let casino operators do whatever they want once they've bought the software. Most of us probably think this is a poor business decision, but making a poor business decision about software licensing doesn't mean their software is rigged. There are also reputable casinos that use RTG like Bodog, Club World, and iNetBet. Would these reputable groups choose to use the SW, if they knew it was rigged?

I don't think our opinions are that far apart.
The question for me is why did these Casinos choose RTG?

Also, as I have said the question of whether the software is "rigged" or manipulated is moot if the Casinos can alter the payouts.
You choose to trust a source with a very poor track records as far as players are concerned, I choose not to, that is where we differ.

 

[RobWin]

Thanks Bryan for setting up this thread separate from the POC thread, I should have done that originally instead of posting this first thread post in there...

 

[RobWin]

It's based on RTG marketing documentation as well as posts from RTG operators on this site. I list specific numbers on my site. For slots, I believe it is a choice of 95%, 97.5% and a lower one (probably 92.5%). There are other games without set payout option and instead a choice of rule differences. For example, in blackjack RTG operators can choose any # of decks from 1 to 255 and can make those changes on the fly. However, a reputable casino probably wouldn't change the game rules without first informing the players.



RTG seems to have a hands off approach and let casino operators do whatever they want once they've bought the software. Most of us probably think this is a poor business decision, but making a poor business decision about software licensing doesn't mean their software is rigged. There are also reputable casinos that use RTG like Bodog, Club World, and iNetBet. Would these reputable groups choose to use the SW, if they knew it was rigged?

Yea, that's my point exactly and the one that scares the hell out of me...but like an idiot I still play on the RTG platform...

 

[Casinomeister]

Operators can adjust the payouts of RTG games, often choosing from one of 3 pre-set levels. However, this has little to do with whether RTG is random or not. I also do not consider Palace of Chance extorting players evidence of non-random software. Instead it only shows that RTG is licensing their software to some rogue operations, likely anyone who pays the fees.

That's pretty much it. The software has been scrutinized for years by many third parties, and there hasn't been a case yet of a truly rigged experience.

It's the operators who fail - not the software.

 

[Rusty]

I don't know who these Third parties are or what their tests involve or by what criteria they judge whether software is rigged or not so I can not comment on that specific point but there is evidence of manipulation via weighting if you are prepared to look for it.

I have made this point over and over that just because something may have a random outcome it does not mean that it has the proper relative probability of outcome.

That is to say you can have a random outcome of any Ten numbers from 1 to 10 but equally you can make any of those Ten numbers more likely to be the outcome or continually alter the likelihood of outcome while still maintaining random results.

This means the problem is that dynamic weighting is very difficult to prove and if the system is sophisticated enough I would say impossible but fortunately RTG software is not that sophisticated.

I have been luckier at RTG Casinos than I have any right to have been but only when I have first joined after that I have been unluckier than I have any right to be.

That means experiencing over expected returns on just about every slot for Tens of hours, many thousands of spins followed by well below expected returns on every slot for Tens of Hours.

It means experiencing features and retriggers frequently and multiple retriggers often, followed by infrequent features and no retriggers at all over long periods.

It means not seeing the first Wild symbol or scatter symbol appear anything like a normal amount, maybe 10% of average over long periods.

When I experience these things over and over at every RTG Casino I have to believe the evidence is that payouts can and are changed and this is done through weighting, I don't need a Third party I have my own eyes, statistics and experiences.

I will not use the term rigged because this implies the outcome is in no way random but the term manipulated certainly fits the bill.

It is the operators that fail but the software provider is responsible to who they provide the software to, in that respect it is also the software that fails whether you agree it can be manipulated or not.

If you give a thug a gun and they go off and use it to Rob someone and you then take no responsibility for your actions then I am going to have a pretty low opinion of you and question your integrity.

 

[RobWin]

I don't know who these Third parties are or what their tests involve or by what criteria they judge whether software is rigged or not so I can not comment on that specific point but there is evidence of manipulation via weighting if you are prepared to look for it.

I have made this point over and over that just because something may have a random outcome it does not mean that it has the proper relative probability of outcome.

That is to say you can have a random outcome of any Ten numbers from 1 to 10 but equally you can make any of those Ten numbers more likely to be the outcome or continually alter the likelihood of outcome while still maintaining random results.

This means the problem is that dynamic weighting is very difficult to prove and if the system is sophisticated enough I would say impossible but fortunately RTG software is not that sophisticated.

I have been luckier at RTG Casinos than I have any right to have been but only when I have first joined after that I have been unluckier than I have any right to be.

That means experiencing over expected returns on just about every slot for Tens of hours, many thousands of spins followed by well below expected returns on every slot for Tens of Hours.

It means experiencing features and retriggers frequently and multiple retriggers often, followed by infrequent features and no retriggers at all over long periods.

It means not seeing the first Wild symbol or scatter symbol appear anything like a normal amount, maybe 10% of average over long periods.

When I experience these things over and over at every RTG Casino I have to believe the evidence is that payouts can and are changed and this is done through weighting, I don't need a Third party I have my own eyes, statistics and experiences.

I will not use the term rigged because this implies the outcome is in no way random but the term manipulated certainly fits the bill.

Yep...

It is the operators that fail but the software provider is responsible to who they provide the software to, in that respect it is also the software that fails whether you agree it can be manipulated or not.

I agree, there is no other way to look at it...where is the oversight, has there EVER been a rep from RTG (and I don't mean one that worked or works for a casino) come on here and dispute any of our claims and thoughts, I can't ever remember one as long as I have been on here...

If you give a thug a gun and they go off and use it to Rob someone and you then take no responsibility for your actions then I am going to have a pretty low opinion of you and question your integrity.

Rusty, did you have to capitalize Rob...

 

[Rusty]

Rusty, did you have to capitalize Rob...



I did didn't I.
I would say freudian slip but I know you're a top man :notworthy

I just tried the free chip at One of the new Rivals and had a good run, I am pretty sure I could of cashed out after making the WR.
The trouble is that the software always behaves the same way and I could never play at Rival seriously because I know after every win streak you are going to go long periods of total nothing.
It is common to play a slot and go well over 100 spins without a win which is crazy and again it is obvious weighting exists here also but as far as I know all Rival Casinos are responsible and payout and as far as I know maintain payout percentage which makes it a lot more palatable.

 

[aka23]

I agree, there is no other way to look at it...where is the oversight, has there EVER been a rep from RTG (and I don't mean one that worked or works for a casino) come on here and dispute any of our claims and thoughts, I can't ever remember one as long as I have been on here...

The reps that post on this forum are generally affiliated with casinos, as one would expect. However, there have been a couple RTG programmers who weren't connected to casinos. For example, in the thread at https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/inetbet-latest.18907/ a former RTG programmer disputes similar claims.

 

[babs7262]

LOL Rusty ,

I just love you sometimes!!I mean that in the nicest way. We are so predictable and funny sometimes. Your on this thread like most of us closing some accounts and talking about SW being rigged and in the same breath (so to speak) you have a lil side note...btw "I tried free chip at the new rival..."

Its just so funny. If we were talking about restaurants , I wonder how many times we would go back to a place that made us sick (including me!)

 

[Rusty]

LOL Rusty ,

I just love you sometimes!!I mean that in the nicest way. We are so predictable and funny sometimes. Your on this thread like most of us closing some accounts and talking about SW being rigged and in the same breath (so to speak) you have a lil side note...btw "I tried free chip at the new rival..."

Its just so funny. If we were talking about restaurants , I wonder how many times we would go back to a place that made us sick (including me!)

If it was free?
I am a skinflint so probably plenty.

By the way weighted does not mean the game is rigged or payouts are not as advertised.
Think of it like an automated throttle on a car, if you are speeding it will lift off the Gas and slow you down, if you are going too slow then it will put the pedal to the metal=feature bonanza
Just don't expect not to crash and burn after every speed rush
ps
I am not stating anything that is not obvious or observable by everyone.
For example I went 140 spins with one winning spin (X3bet)
Everyone else must experience these streaks.
That is not normal variance even for slots like Rivals which put a higher percentage return into the bonus rounds than other software and it is not an isolated incident, it is quite common.
I am not saying it is rigged, I won on a free chip for heavens sake!
Try to understand what I am saying.

 

[babs7262]

If it was free?
I am a skinflint so probably plenty.

By the way weighted does not mean the game is rigged or payouts are not as advertised.
Think of it like an automated throttle on a car, if you are speeding it will lift off the Gas and slow you down, if you are going too slow then it will put the pedal to the metal=feature bonanza
Just don't expect not to crash and burn after every speed rush
ps
I am not stating anything that is not obvious or observable by everyone.
For example I went 140 spins with one winning spin (X3bet)
Everyone else must experience these streaks.
That is not normal variance even for slots like Rivals which put a higher percentage return into the bonus rounds than other software and it is not an isolated incident, it is quite common.
I am not saying it is rigged, I won on a free chip for heavens sake!
Try to understand what I am saying.

I do because I do the same thing, a free chip is a free chip right? I hope you didnt take that as an insult, it was just cute i like you

 

[Rusty]

I do because I do the same thing, a free chip is a free chip right? I hope you didnt take that as an insult, it was just cute i like you

There is no accounting for taste but I like to be liked and love to be loved, so it is a wonder I can be so uncompromising.
I like you too

 

[tim5ny]

The nature of the game........the player being at a disadvantage from the start, but he forgets that. He thinks he's going into a fair game. It's 50/50!..right? Far from it.

Enjoy the high priced "Entertainment"!

 

[EasyRhino]

I don't see the point in complaining that a slot machine is high variance. That's what it's supposed to be.

The only shifty thing would be if a casino changed a slot payout (or table game rules) WHILE YOU WERE PLAYING IT. However, in the case of a slot, you generally don't know what the payout percentage is, so it probably wouldn't be noticeable. If RTG's percentages are between 92.5 and 97.5, those are all very reasonable compared to brick and mortar casinos.

 

[Rusty]

I don't see the point in complaining that a slot machine is high variance. That's what it's supposed to be.

The only shifty thing would be if a casino changed a slot payout (or table game rules) WHILE YOU WERE PLAYING IT. However, in the case of a slot, you generally don't know what the payout percentage is, so it probably wouldn't be noticeable. If RTG's percentages are between 92.5 and 97.5, those are all very reasonable compared to brick and mortar casinos.

You don't mean "if" you mean if

 

[RobWin]

I don't see the point in complaining that a slot machine is high variance. That's what it's supposed to be.

The only shifty thing would be if a casino changed a slot payout (or table game rules) WHILE YOU WERE PLAYING IT. However, in the case of a slot, you generally don't know what the payout percentage is, so it probably wouldn't be noticeable. If RTG's percentages are between 92.5 and 97.5, those are all very reasonable compared to brick and mortar casinos.

Oh man, it has most definitely been noticeable at the majority of the RTG Casinos that I have played at this year without a flicker of a doubt !!

 

[tombee]

Wanted to post a new topic, but I think my question suits here well..?

Been playing BJ at Bodog (using RTG software) and EVERY time I play the bank gets an very high amount of Black Jacks. High compared to me as a player AND to other casino's. Anyone has got a same experience?

Also I had a fairly good game the first several hours I played, despite of the many BJ's from the dealer. But after those hours, the next hours (even more) were absolutely terrible . Losing way more hands then you would expect in a normal game. Off course this could be bad luck, but still very strange to see the sudden change in "luck" as a player.