Interwetten confiscating winnings

[Ferretktf]

Hi all,

Something weird happened to me at Interwetten last week and I have been waiting to see if I am the only person caught up in it or not. I haven't seen any other posts on these forums, or any other that I frequent so it may be that I am out on my own.

Probably gonna "pitch a bitch" over this so don't want to go into too many details just yet except for the following.

They ran a promotion the other Sunday (10th Feb) that I participated in. I started off playing within my normal 20 per hand limits but started losing and red misted a little, raising to 30, 40 and eventually playing 60 hands. I lost my entire 1500 balance and redeposited 1000 by moneybookers, and very nearly lost all of that as well.

Fortunately, despite dropping down to my last 200 (so 2300 down at that time) I got some positive variance, turned it around, and ended up several thousand pounds up


On the Monday morning (11th) I went in to withdraw some funds and found my account locked. It remained locked all week until last Friday (15th), when they unlocked it, stated that there had been a problem with the promotion, and confiscated all my winnings, leaving me with the starting balance that I had at the beginning of play last Sunday.

They told me they had voided ALL PLAY on ANY GAME in the ENTIRE CASINO for that 24 HOUR PERIOD for EVERY PARTICIPANT

I am not a lawyer but I have studied the terms and conditions of the promotion and do not believe that there was any problem - it worked precisely as they promoted it. My initial reaction therefore was that too many people had won that day and so on the Monday they decided to find a reason to disqualify the winnings -- it took them all week but eventually they decided to pull the old "technical error" card. (as there was nothing actually wrong in reality).

I have tried e-mailing them, but they ignore my e-mails. I rang them and their customer support person said that they could not help me over the phone and that I would have to e-mail. I have e-malled again and still no response. With two weeks elapsed and nobody posting on here I am now wondering if it is only me who has had their winnings confiscated? I expected there to be a big song and dance about this? Has nobody else had similar problems with Interwetten?

Did anybody play there on Sunday (10th) -- Did you LOSE (if so were your losses refunded as surely should have been the case if they voided all play)

Advice? Sorry for the relative vagueness. Should I post the full details here or should I go straight for "Pitch a Bitch". Anybody else feeling the same as me ... i.e. waiting for someone to start a thread!! here's your chance to join me. I can't be the only one if what they are telling me is true.

I feel really aggrieved as I came close to doing my balls, luckily turned it around, and now they pull the rug from under me with some very lame excuse. Do I have any legal form of recourse through their affiliations (Malta I believe)

TIA

 

[Roar]

Did anybody play there on Sunday (10th) -- Did you LOSE (if so were your losses refunded as surely should have been the case if they voided all play)

I deposited and played that day in response to the advertised promotion.

After losing my entire and rather modest funds (in comparison to yours Ferret) I waited for the cash-back. Nothing happened.

I subsequently made a much larger deposit later that week without any sort of bonus attached and won about 50 euro. Cashed out. My account got locked before the money arrived back in my Bank account.

Bonus or no bonus you will get grief from greedy corporates.

Emails ignored. Good-bye Interwetten.

.

 

[Ferretktf]

Thanks for this.

You have confirmed that they did not void all play - they merely confiscated winnings -- so it was the classic case of keep the winnings from the losers while refusing to pay the winners. Tell the winners there was a "technical error" (when there quite clearly was not), and tell the losers nothing.

Interesting to see that you got your account locked though -- presumably they locked everyone while they dtermined if they won or lost -- what explanation did they give you (I am presuming they have unlocked your account now and that you have been able to cash out)

I'm now looking to see if anybody else had their winnings confiscated, or indeed if anybody actually won and was able to keep what they won.


Come on, we can't have been the only two people to have played at IW that day can we?

 

[thelawnet]

Thanks for this.

You have confirmed that they did not void all play - they merely confiscated winnings -- so it was the classic case of keep the winnings from the losers while refusing to pay the winners. Tell the winners there was a "technical error" (when there quite clearly was not), and tell the losers nothing.

Interesting to see that you got your account locked though -- presumably they locked everyone while they dtermined if they won or lost -- what explanation did they give you (I am presuming they have unlocked your account now and that you have been able to cash out)

I'm now looking to see if anybody else had their winnings confiscated, or indeed if anybody actually won and was able to keep what they won.


Come on, we can't have been the only two people to have played at IW that day can we?

Interwetten have stolen about 1,500 off me. I have been waiting for a response from them and so have not posted anything here as yet.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This sounds like bullshite!

If the error was with the PROMOTION, there would be no need to void ALL GAMEPLAY for that day. If this was a cashback, was this one on WAGERING, or on the amount won or lost. If on losses, there would be no real problem, as players would already have lost the money anyway. If on WINNINGS, the casino might find they had offered too much, and want to get out of the offer, but again, no need to void gameplay. If on WAGERING, it could be down to bad design, similar to the Big Dollar fiasco some while back. This could result on a guaranteed +EV for players who played games, even if they lost, because the cashback would put them into profit (this is what befell Big Dollar). If the problem was supposedly with the underlying games, then this is a SOFTWARE ISSUE, i.e, the software was "cheating", but in a way that favoured the PLAYER, and it would NOT be enough to pull the promotion, but that they would have to find a way to void winnings. This is a HUGE hit to their credibility, as we now view their software with suspicion, and wonder whether they would have been as proactive were the error to have favoured the CASINO (from past experience where this has been the case, I would say NO!).

There was a previous issue where they refused to pay a player by a convenient means (but one allowed in the T & C), and insisted they take a cheque, which was highly inconvenient, and would involve long delays and several layers of fees. This player only wanted their deposit back after being told they would NOT be paid according to the general provisions in the T & C, but that they were viewed as an "exceptional circumstance" which meant adverse treatment for their withdrawals.

I would say PAB, but also tell us what this promotion entailed, so we can see if they are just plain daft enough to design another "Big Dollar" type +EV offer, or whether they are trying to cover up a software bug by pretending it is related to this specific promotion.

 

[Ferretktf]

Ok - this was the promotion ...

Sunday Cashback Madness

How it works:

For every EUR 100,00 you lose at the Interwetten Online Casino, you get EUR 10,00 back.

Terms and Conditions:

This promotion is valid to all Interwetten Casino Real Money customers.
Promotion days in February 2008 are:
Sunday, 03.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 10.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 17.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 24.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET

This promotion is subject to Interwetten Casino standard rules, terms and conditions.

To qualify for the cashback bonus you must make a transfer of funds from your Sportsbook real money account in to Casino chips and wager at least EUR 100,00 on the respective promotion day at Interwetten Online Casino.

For each EUR 100,00 loss at the Interwetten Online Casino, the customer will get EUR 10,00 Chips credited to his Interwetten Casino account.

The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. There are no wager requirements for the Cashback Bonus.

Interwetten Casino reserves the right to refuse all promotions and bonuses to players who do not comply with this condition.

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

Management decision is final. No discussion will be entered into.

As you can see the offer was ... For every EUR 100,00 you lose at the Interwetten Online Casino, you get EUR 10,00 back.


This is exactly what happened. Everytime I lost EUR 100, I received EUR 10 back, in other words the promotion delivered exactly what it said.

This still didn't stop me losing nearly 2500 before I turned it around - largely through red misting that actually worked in my favour for once



Now this "Sunday Cashback Madness" was different than a lot of cashback offers, which tend to be phrased like this

from Spin Palace:-

- 30% Slots Cashback Bonus* - maximum Bonus of 300
(based on accumulative loss incurred at all Slots)

and Kerching

Play any slot game at Kerching Casino this Valentine's Day and earn yourself up to 50 cashback.
Loss is defined as total stakes minus total payout for the entire promotional day.
The cashback is 50% of all losses within the promotional period.

This promotion was quite clearly worded ... not 10% back of your total losses across the day but "For each EUR 100,00 loss at the Interwetten Online Casino, the customer will get EUR 10,00 Chips credited to his Interwetten Casino account. " Not only that, but as that is exactly what happened, they clearly amended their software to enable that to happen.

Yes it was quite an attractive promotion, but they did term it "madness"! But as my roller-coaster ride showed, certainly not a guaranteed certainty.


However, at some point after the event they decided that they did not like the promotion after all and locked my account (along with others by the looks of things)

They locked it on Monday, and it was not until Friday that they unlocked it and came up with the following explanation

Due to a technical problem, an erroneous bonus payment was issued in the Casino on February 10th, 2008.

The bonus was wrongly issued after each Casino transaction and then credited to your bonus balance, not on the following day as it is specified in the terms and conditions.

Furthermore, bonus credit was able to be generated through the bonus itself, which is ruled out by the bonus regulations.

The bonus terms stated: “The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days.”

Due to the terms and conditions, the promotion had to be cancelled, as there had been an obvious technical failure:

• “Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.”

In your case, all casino transactions starting from Feburary 10th, 2008, 00:00 a.m., had to be voided.

They then deducted a very large amount (several thousand pounds) from my account.

Now their terms and conditions do state "on one of the following days" - but then does not list the days, so that sort of invalidates the clause rather

Even so I don't see what relevance this has to the amount of the bonus itself (the bonus as per the terms and conidtions had no wager requirement so whenever they paid it it would be mine immediately, be that on the Sunday, the Monday or next month)


To me this is clearly NOT a Technical Reason but instead a promotion that they decided they wanted to welch on after the event. It then took them five days of trawling through various T&C's clearly looking for an out, before they weakly opted for "Technical Reason"

For me though the painful things is that I very nearly bust out 2500 - and had I done so, would I have got a refund because of this? No, I would not have heard a dicky bird - as our friend "Roar" from earlier in the thread has proved.

They clearly looked down at who had won that day and decided to revoke their winnings, while keeping the wagers of those who had lost. This is disingeneous at best and potentially verging on fraud at worst.

Can a Casino really decide to do this on a whim and get away with it?


What action can I take here? They refuse to answer my e-mails or telephone calls

 

[thelawnet]

This sounds like bullshite!

If the error was with the PROMOTION, there would be no need to void ALL GAMEPLAY for that day. If this was a cashback, was this one on WAGERING, or on the amount won or lost. If on losses, there would be no real problem, as players would already have lost the money anyway. If on WINNINGS, the casino might find they had offered too much, and want to get out of the offer, but again, no need to void gameplay. If on WAGERING, it could be down to bad design, similar to the Big Dollar fiasco some while back. This could result on a guaranteed +EV for players who played games, even if they lost, because the cashback would put them into profit (this is what befell Big Dollar). If the problem was supposedly with the underlying games, then this is a SOFTWARE ISSUE, i.e, the software was "cheating", but in a way that favoured the PLAYER, and it would NOT be enough to pull the promotion, but that they would have to find a way to void winnings. This is a HUGE hit to their credibility, as we now view their software with suspicion, and wonder whether they would have been as proactive were the error to have favoured the CASINO (from past experience where this has been the case, I would say NO!).

There was a previous issue where they refused to pay a player by a convenient means (but one allowed in the T & C), and insisted they take a cheque, which was highly inconvenient, and would involve long delays and several layers of fees. This player only wanted their deposit back after being told they would NOT be paid according to the general provisions in the T & C, but that they were viewed as an "exceptional circumstance" which meant adverse treatment for their withdrawals.

I would say PAB, but also tell us what this promotion entailed, so we can see if they are just plain daft enough to design another "Big Dollar" type +EV offer, or whether they are trying to cover up a software bug by pretending it is related to this specific promotion.

I'm not familiar with Big Dollar's issue. Do you have a link?

On this promotion it was run for 2 weeks. The first week I had to deposit 3 or 4 times but eventually had a good run and cashed out 2k profit.

The second week they seem to have stolen everybody's winnings.

It was the same promotion both weeks, so I'm not sure why they have changed their tune.

 

[KasinoKing]

Come on, we can't have been the only two people to have played at IW that day can we?

Nope! Our friend Caruso had the same problem:-

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Strikes me he spotted the loophole error in the promo, took full advantage of it and then got his account locked & winnings confiscated under the "we screwed up but we're going to make you pay for our error" rule.

This is a very sad state of affairs. I hope everyone gets their full balance & winnings returned, and soon.

KK

 

[klankenstein]

I got caught up in this as well, had some really good winnings on Sunday then they just closed my account and took nearly 4000 off my balance. Have emailed them twice and had no response either time - looks like they're just ignoring the issue. If you're going to PAB on this count me in.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The manipulator is clear, play 100 hands at, say, Blackjack and get either 10 cashback or 100 or 150 winnings. This works because 10% cashback is played on EACH losing hand, and not the total loss on the day.
The CORRECT response would be to remove the bonuses credited, and recalculate the amount due on the TOTAL loss for the day. This casino seem to be behaving in a rogue manner, they are voiding ALL bets of winners, yet are quite happy to string along the LOSERS by letting them keep the erroneous bonus credits so long as they lost overall.
To resolve this in a FAIR manner, they should use a solution that is the SAME, regardless of whether the player won or lost. Worse, they seem to have run this the previous week, and must have known there was a problem, but seemed happy to let it continue until enough players spotted the loophole.

If they are voiding ALL transactions, they MUST refund LOSERS, as well as restoring winners to their starting balance. The T & C for the promotion DOES NOT ALLOW THIS ANYWAY, they state that the resolution should be:-

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

This states that the resolution they have allowed themselves is to

1) cancel the promotion
2) recover the erroneously paid prize credits from ALL PARTICIPANTS

They seem to have decided to do something completely different, and something that lets them "have their cake and eat it".

They seem a good candidate for "not recommended", although they fall short of full blown "rogue" status, although this depends on how they handle this in the following couple of weeks.

 

[Ferretktf]

The CORRECT response would be to remove the bonuses credited, and recalculate the amount due on the TOTAL loss for the day.

I would dispute that, because that was not the promotion. the promotion was to credit a 10 EUR bonus for each 100EUR lost -- which is how it played out.

This casino seem to be behaving in a rogue manner, they are voiding ALL bets of winners, yet are quite happy to string along the LOSERS by letting them keep the erroneous bonus credits so long as they lost overall.

This is outrageous and shows them up to be the schemers that they are. this is not about "equality" or "correcting technical faults", this is about maximising income for the Casino at the expense of genuine players who playerd a genuine promotion.

If they are voiding ALL transactions, they MUST refund LOSERS, as well as restoring winners to their starting balance.

This pre-supposes they have the right to void transactions -which they do not.

The T & C for the promotion DOES NOT ALLOW THIS ANYWAY, they state that the resolution should be:-

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.
We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

This states that the resolution they have allowed themselves is to

1) cancel the promotion
2) recover the erroneously paid prize credits from ALL PARTICIPANTS

lets not lose sight of the fact that the players did nothing wrong so the second part of that (removal of prize credits) does not apply.

And there were no technical reasons - only a poorly framed promotion (from their perspective)

They seem a good candidate for "not recommended", although they fall short of full blown "rogue" status, although this depends on how they handle this in the following couple of weeks.

They are currently handling it by ignoring all forms of communication.

Should I now PAB? Will Bryan be able to help here?

 

[klankenstein]

The manipulator is clear, play 100 hands at, say, Blackjack and get either 10 cashback or 100 or 150 winnings. This works because 10% cashback is played on EACH losing hand, and not the total loss on the day.

Correct, that is what happened.

The CORRECT response would be to remove the bonuses credited, and recalculate the amount due on the TOTAL loss for the day. This casino seem to be behaving in a rogue manner, they are voiding ALL bets of winners, yet are quite happy to string along the LOSERS by letting them keep the erroneous bonus credits so long as they lost overall.

Not at all, the promotion was NOT for losses on the day. In Interwetten's explanation they never once suggest that the AMOUNT of the bonuses was incorrect, only WHEN they were credited. As the time of crediting the bonuses has no impact on their value or our gameplay, the correct response would be to admit that THEY made a mistake in offering the promotion and pay out the winnings we are due.

To resolve this in a FAIR manner, they should use a solution that is the SAME, regardless of whether the player won or lost. Worse, they seem to have run this the previous week, and must have known there was a problem, but seemed happy to let it continue until enough players spotted the loophole.

Given they let it run the previous week and did nothing is testament to the fact that the promotion was running as intended.

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions

The terms you quote from Interwetten would not be considered "fair" under contract law. If that clause gives the casino the right to cancel ANY promotions AFTER they have been run and subsequently forfeit winnings for whatever reason, I think this could be deemed "unfair". They should not be able to cancel them just because THEY made a mistake.

Note also that it was not the PLAYERS that broke any terms and conditions - the second term does not apply to this case. All we did was play at the casino, THEY broke their own terms by crediting the bonus too early.

They seem to have decided to do something completely different, and something that lets them "have their cake and eat it".

They seem a good candidate for "not recommended", although they fall short of full blown "rogue" status, although this depends on how they handle this in the following couple of weeks.

Exactly, they've decided that they made a mistake with this promotion and now want to recover their losses. They've used the "credited on the following day" term to try and wiggle their way out of it by claiming "technical fault". How they've "dealt" with it so far has been to completely ignore my emails.

 

[Roar]

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.
We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

This condition merely allows the casino to cease the promotion at any given point in time. It mentions nothing about the forfeiture, cancellation or confiscation of monies due under the stated T+Cs of the promotion up until that point in time (except where "any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions").

When I played the SW did not automatically credit my account with any bonus funds whatsoever. I have not been paid for a dime with respect to my losses incurred on this day. I have now twice dispatched emails to the casino seeking the whereabouts of my funds with respect to this promotion. No response so far.

I subsequently deposited and withdrew from the Casino without any bonus. After my last cash-out my account was locked without attending advice or reason.

God knows why this people are permitted to operate a casino let alone have access to peoples funds and credit card information. They have demonstrated high levels of both incompetence and mendacity. However, they are certainly not alone in that respect.

.

 

[uungy]

They are a peculiar company. I must have won a few quid there (not much) and they voulentarily closed my account. I had requested a payout from them a couple of times, and they never seem to process them, unless you chase them for it. When they closed my account, I got my money which was in there, in no time, so it was actually quite beneficial for me.

I still think its strange they close my account, whioch goes to show that they are like the few others out there, where if you win a bit, they close you out, instead of hoping that you play there again

 

[Ferretktf]

I have now submitted a PAB

 

[Duncan Disorder]

I played on the Sunday in question. I happened to win a substantial sum of money without any bonus. They did pay my winnings out without issue, but the bonus I won on the day was removed from my account like everyone else. It seems that if you're balance crept into bonus funds and you then had a good winning streak, they would remove all your winnings from your account.

I feel Interwetten have dishonoured the terms of their promotion.

 

[thelawnet]

just to add, they are ignoring my emails.....

Seems like a hit and run job by them.

How pathetic is that?

 

[uungy]

Best thing to do to get your money is bonus abuse them, they will close your account swiftly and process your withdrawal. It sounds crazy, but thats how this joint works

 

[kah]

Great - some other people who had this experience!
Interwetten took all of my winnings for that day and left my account how it was beforehand. I don't know how much was winnings and how much was the bonus credited, but how can they justify that??
They also took all the comp points I had converted on that day.
They emailed with some nonsense about the bonus being credited on the wrong day, closed my account briefly and reopened it with the old balance. Since then they have failed to reply to ALL of my emails.

The terms said

For each EUR 100,00 (CHF 160, USD 120, GBP 60, DKK 700, SEK 900, TRY 160, SGD 200, NOK 800, PLN 380, HUF 25.000, RON 300, CZK 2.500) loss at the Interwetten Online Casino, the customer will get EUR 10,00 (CHF 16, USD 12, GBP 6, DKK 70, SEK 90, TRY 16, SGD 20, NOK 80, PLN 38, HUF 2.500, RON 30, CZK 250) Chips credited to his Interwetten Casino account.

And that's exactly what happened so how can they take a promotion away after the event!?

This surely cannot be acceptable behaviour for an online casino?? It's good there is a site like this to fight our cause.
Who do we give the details to? What's the best way of going about it - Interwetten themselves won't respond so I'm not sure?

 

[klankenstein]

Interwetten are still ignoring all my emails regarding this issue. Tried telephoning them but they just fob you off with excuses about "they only respond to emails" and then don't. Not acceptable behaviour at all.

I actually had a winning streak that won me over 1200 at the end, however because I had dipped into the bonus money about 8 hours prior (about 100 or so) they removed the whole lot - winnings and bonus, including all my comp points too.

 

[niklas]

Not at all, the promotion was NOT for losses on the day. In Interwetten's explanation they never once suggest that the AMOUNT of the bonuses was incorrect, only WHEN they were credited. As the time of crediting the bonuses has no impact on their value or our gameplay, the correct response would be to admit that THEY made a mistake in offering the promotion and pay out the winnings we are due.

Bit of a late reply, but WHEN they credit the bonus does have a big impact on the value to the game play. Obviously this bonus gives any low house edge game a positive expectation. Now, if they credited it afterwards, you could make a killing by just playing say blackjack until bust. But crediting the bonus in "real time", so to speak, will mean not only that the risk of bust is extremely low as long as you bet a small portion of your balance per hand, but you'll also probably be winning and increasing your balance, allowing you to keep raising your bets, meaning you can get a huuuuge winning. Which seems to have happened.

I agree that confiscating the bonus while not refunding losses is rogue-ish
behavious, and even voiding all bets and leaving players with their original balance is less that honest, although kinda understandable if they lost as much as I imagine they did from this botched promotion.

 

[kah]

I agree that confiscating the bonus while not refunding losses is rogue-ish
behavious, and even voiding all bets and leaving players with their original balance is less that honest, although kinda understandable if they lost as much as I imagine they did from this botched promotion.

Yes, it's understandable.
Just like it's understandable that I want to get my money back when I play BJ in a casino and click the wrong button on a hard 20 and bust. But the number of times a casino has said to me - "Hell - why not? Have your money back!" - is zero. I see the post referred to on page 1 at winneronline says a similar thing.
So why is it acceptable for a casino to claw money back and not for a player?
The only difference is that they are the ones with the keys to the house and can do whatever they want.
As has already been noted, the promotion behaved exactly as the terms suggested - a rebate for each amount lost, with no mention of time, or of taking all the bonuses issued back the next day.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, it's understandable.
Just like it's understandable that I want to get my money back when I play BJ in a casino and click the wrong button on a hard 20 and bust. But the number of times a casino has said to me - "Hell - why not? Have your money back!" - is zero. I see the post referred to on page 1 at winneronline says a similar thing.
So why is it acceptable for a casino to claw money back and not for a player?
The only difference is that they are the ones with the keys to the house and can do whatever they want.
As has already been noted, the promotion behaved exactly as the terms suggested - a rebate for each amount lost, with no mention of time, or of taking all the bonuses issued back the next day.

Well, if they get hustled by some advantage players down the line, I won't shed a tear, what software are they

 

[thelawnet]

Bit of a late reply, but WHEN they credit the bonus does have a big impact on the value to the game play. Obviously this bonus gives any low house edge game a positive expectation. Now, if they credited it afterwards, you could make a killing by just playing say blackjack until bust. But crediting the bonus in "real time", so to speak, will mean not only that the risk of bust is extremely low as long as you bet a small portion of your balance per hand, but you'll also probably be winning and increasing your balance, allowing you to keep raising your bets, meaning you can get a huuuuge winning. Which seems to have happened.

I agree that confiscating the bonus while not refunding losses is rogue-ish
behavious, and even voiding all bets and leaving players with their original balance is less that honest, although kinda understandable if they lost as much as I imagine they did from this botched promotion.

They advertised the promotion for four weeks.

They ran it for one week, got some new players and deposits as a result, were quite happy, paid everybody. No problems

The second week they decided to give it another go, lose more money, decide they actually they don't want to pay people this time and steal it all.

There are no grounds for this it all. There was no difference between the weekends except that weekend 2 they did a runner afterwards with the players' cash.

 

[The Dude]

Just a heads up that Max has been working on this, the casino has responded stating:

As you can see at the Terms and Conditions, we clearly stated that the Bonus will be credited on one of the following days of the promotion period. That means the Bonus should have been calculated on the Net Loss and not credited on the immediate loss.

So we're searching for that "clearly stated term" and asking them to point it out to us as well. If any of you can help us find it, that would help too

 

[uungy]

Just a heads up that Max has been working on this, the casino has responded stating:


So we're searching for that "clearly stated term" and asking them to point it out to us as well. If any of you can help us find it, that would help too

They seem to have removed teh cache from the google bots, as all other promotions are coming up except for this one.

Also this doesnt explain why they are removing wins also

LGA is a good place to turn to. I had a similar problem with another casino, and they were forced to pay out within a week

 

[Zoozie]

They seem to have removed teh cache from the google bots, as all other promotions are coming up except for this one.

You have the URL? Maybe I can dig something up.

 

[uungy]

https://www.interwetten.com/Common/CMS/CMS.aspx?type=2&ln=PromotionsCategory|Promotions&tid=Promotions&st=Casino&cat=Sunday+Cashback+Madness not sure why there is a gap between the last two "s s"

 

[klaatu]

I had to 'delurk' to share my experiences here.

As with everybody else they voided all my play and locked my account.

However when I asked why they stated that I needed to provide identity documentation. I'm fairly security conscious and dislike sending ID documents via email at the best of times but it didn't seem like I had a choice.

So I sent the documents and then got a reply that there had been problems with the promotion. I asked why they wanted the documents and never received any kind of apology or explanation.

Since then all mails have been met with complete silence.

BTW - It took over 1 week for them to unlock my account. I'm just glad that I didn't have an urgent need to get at my funds.

 

[The Dude]

Looks like this wasn't the first time they effed up. Here is a PAB from about a year ago:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/interwetten-pitch-a-bitch.17472/

The problem: Interwetten do 2 deposit bonuses a month as advertised on their homepage. A 100% deposit bonus from the 1st to 14th of each month and a 50% deposit bonus form the 15th onwards. I deposited for the 50% bonus on the 24th march 2007 and got the usual 100 bonus is pending message. I completed the wagering requirements but the bonus didn't credit to my balance as usual. I contacted the bonus and received the following email:

Dear xxx,

Unfortunately we have to inform you that due to technical reasons we have to remove the 50% bonus from our casinosite. Also already activated bonuses have to be revoked because all wagers towards the 50% bonus are not counted in an adequate manner. The new bonus period for the 100% extrachips will start at the 1st of April. We thank you for your understanding

Kind regards

Mario Bilic
Service Team
Interwetten.com

I responded asking nicely for the bonus to be credited manually as I completed the bonus in good faith and the promotion was still and IS still being advertised on the site and there was never any communication to me that any wagering wouldn't count towards a bonus that had been removed. I then received this email:

Dear xxx,

Thank you for your mail
We are sorry, but we refer to our terms and conditions.
Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited too computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures. Management decision is final. No discussion will be entered into.

Thank you in advance for your understanding and your patience
Kind regards,
Mario BABIC
Service-Team
www.interwetten.com+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I use the Interwetten casino and sportsbook frequently but this situation has soured my view of them completely. I know from reading other forums that I am not the only customer this has happened to and a lot of people will be in a loss financially as a result of this sly and underhand behaviour. I would appreciate it if you can contact the casino on my behalf and request the bonus to be manually credited and the 50% bonus offer to be removed from the site so no one else falls for this.

I felt that this was rather harsh and contacted the casino with this PAB stating so - asking them if there was a way in which they could appease this player. They came back with this:

Dear Sir,

the bonus mentioned below had to be stopped due to some serious problems. The banner on our website promoting the bonus was removed on March 23rd.

There was no more promotion banner on our homepage at the time this customer wanted to achieve it. Unfortunately one link on our homepage still showed the bonus rules some days longer, but also on this link the following part of the bonus terms and conditions was shown:

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited too computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We are sorry but there is no way to credit a bonus which was stopped before due to some serious problems.

Kind regards,

Gerhard Hoess
Service-Team
www.interwetten.com

I guess the "technical reason" was that they didn't update their main index page. That's laziness - not technical.

The player never got back to me on this - so I fugured she just said the hell with it. I never hammered Interwetten concerning their problems since the player just let it go, and no one was bitching either...

So far all Max has is that blurb that I posted earlier. I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about this and it looks like inept amaturish bonus management. It seems that this casino subscribes to the school of "if you make a mistake - deny everything and make counter accusations." This is a no-go in online casino land - especially if you are licensed in the EU. Sure you can get away with this if you have a "license" in sunny bong-hitting CR, or from a non-whitelisted jurisdiction - but I don't think Malta's LGA is going to like this.

Let's hope there is a bit more in Max's in-box tomorrow. If they seem to be "fobbing" everyone off - to include Max (who represents moi), then we have a new member of rogue-town.

They (Interwetten) owe the player community a thorough explanation about what went wrong. One of the important aspects of proper casino management is to admit your mistakes when you make them.

 

[thelawnet]

So far all Max has is that blurb that I posted earlier. I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about this and it looks like inept amaturish bonus management. It seems that this casino subscribes to the school of "if you make a mistake - deny everything and make counter accusations." This is a no-go in online casino land - especially if you are licensed in the EU. Sure you can get away with this if you have a "license" in sunny bong-hitting CR, or from a non-whitelisted jurisdiction - but I don't think Malta's LGA is going to like this.

Let's hope there is a bit more in Max's in-box tomorrow. If they seem to be "fobbing" everyone off - to include Max (who represents moi), then we have a new member of rogue-town.

They (Interwetten) owe the player community a thorough explanation about what went wrong. One of the important aspects of proper casino management is to admit your mistakes when you make them.

I agree with this.

A casino can advertise a promotion for four weeks and dump it after two if it wants, oops, no more bonuses in week 3 and 4, the promotions manager was more generous than he should have been, sorry guys.

But how on earth can they justify paying people one week and not the next, on exactly the same offer?

It makes no sense.

And of course the policy of ignoring all the players' emails and refusing to take their phone calls, but then answering emails from Casinomeister. What's up with that? They think they can just ignore players and they will go away? Is this any way for a supposedly reputable EU-regulated casino to behave?

 

[uungy]

I mentioned earlier, and will expand a little.

The LGA are a competent bunch and will take fair action (it was fair in my case, as they agreed to me) and seem very unbiased.

I have contacted them recently in regards to more information about casino770 but they have yet to respond, however if you contact them, you need to make at least one follow up call, to make sure they are indeed looking into it, otherwise it goes to the bottom of the pile. Their is one person who makes the decision, Frances Blenheim, and can be contacted on 00356 2131 6590 or email on [email protected].

Also ask when to call next to make sure they are progressing, but they do look into it, and force them to pay out. In my case it was few K, and they paid out within 24 hours. They told me they would take the company to court on your behalf if they dont do as they are told.

Anyone wants more info, I would be happy to help

 

[maxd]

In case anyone else has been wondering:

The Lotteries and Gaming Authority (LGA) is a public single regulatory body that is responsible for the governance of all forms of gaming in Malta.

 

[Ferretktf]

I mentioned earlier, and will expand a little.

The LGA are a competent bunch and will take fair action (it was fair in my case, as they agreed to me) and seem very unbiased.

I have contacted them recently in regards to more information about casino770 but they have yet to respond, however if you contact them, you need to make at least one follow up call, to make sure they are indeed looking into it, otherwise it goes to the bottom of the pile. Their is one person who makes the decision, Frances Blenheim, and can be contacted on 00356 2131 6590 or email on [email protected].

Also ask when to call next to make sure they are progressing, but they do look into it, and force them to pay out. In my case it was few K, and they paid out within 24 hours. They told me they would take the company to court on your behalf if they dont do as they are told.

Anyone wants more info, I would be happy to help

Thanks for this - will wait to see what comes into CM-land over the next day or so and then the LGA seems the next port of call.

What would be the best way to approach this -as there appears to be half-a-dozen or so of us caught up in this ... some sort of group approach to LGA, or each do it individually ?

 

[maxd]

Let's hope there is a bit more in Max's in-box tomorrow.

FWIW, nothing so far.

 

[ugaboga]

Which casino software does interwetten use? RTG?

In the past, I have used their sportsbook (not casino), whilst they were slow in responding in emails and at times their response was not complete, they did pay winnings.

Bryan if they do not pay out on this bonus, are considering rogue territory?

 

[kah]

So should I PAB or is posting on this thread enough for now?
Thanks!

 

[maxd]

Go for it!

PABs get submitted directly to whomever it is they need to be submitted to whereas threads are forwarded to a rep if there is one, or left to the mercy of the Google gods if not.

 

[klankenstein]

I've just submitted a PAB.

 

[uungy]

Just found a cached link

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

the closest they get to saying it will be credited the following day is

The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. There are no wager requirements for the Cashback Bonus.

Not sure what to make of that

By the way anyone concerned take a screenshot of you want to go to the LGA about this

 

[Ferretktf]

and nowhere in those T&C's is anything that could lead one to this conclusion ... as stated to Bryan

"That means the Bonus should have been calculated on the Net Loss and not credited on the immediate loss."


Particularly in view of both the way it was phrased, the way it operated in reality, and the fact that, as stated by others, this was the second weekend they offered this exact promotion .... if it was wrong then why did they offer it again ?

they also allowed it to run for the full 24 hours without cancelling it - as you would expect them to do if there was a major fault - and it took them five days of locked accounts before they decided to go with the "technical fault" line - clearly this is just fabrication to avoid payment

 

[vinylweatherman]

and nowhere in those T&C's is anything that could lead one to this conclusion ... as stated to Bryan

"That means the Bonus should have been calculated on the Net Loss and not credited on the immediate loss."


Particularly in view of both the way it was phrased, the way it operated in reality, and the fact that, as stated by others, this was the second weekend they offered this exact promotion .... if it was wrong then why did they offer it again ?

they also allowed it to run for the full 24 hours without cancelling it - as you would expect them to do if there was a major fault - and it took them five days of locked accounts before they decided to go with the "technical fault" line - clearly this is just fabrication to avoid payment

By allowing it to run for the whole 24 hours, and a SECOND time too, they were able to get the MAXIMUM out of players who were REALLY unlucky and lost, but were never going to pay the winners anything other than a return of their starting funds. This created 24 hours where the casino simply could not lose, but allowing this to run mislead players into continuing to play, which clearly included "chasing" bahaviour by one of the players who had to deposit again before finally hitting a winning streak, only to have the winnings confiscated the next day.

It is inconceivable that they did not know of this "technical problem" after the FIRST week, but perhaps they STILL made money overall, so allowed it to run again in the hope of repeating the profitable process. They didn't bargain on PLAYERS analysing the previous weekend's play, and a week was enough for the following weekend to be played far more skillfully, and this seems to have caught them completely by suprise, but there again, they can just do what they bloody well like, they are an online casino.

They have only damaged trust, but it is only the players who WON that have any idea what has gone wrong. Those that LOST (the profitable ones) have NOT had their play voided, and have no idea that if they had managed to win they would have not been paid those winnings. They are probably wondering why the promotion was pullled early, but are probably being told "technical problems", without a proper reason being given.

 

[Ferretktf]

^^^ Spot on

 

[The Dude]

Okay - the ball is in Interwetten's court; they have the complaints to review and I've expressed how I feel about this situation. I am looking forward to (hoping for) a positive resolution.

 

[SnowKatt]

I'm making it a habit to avoid any casino that states '' Management decision is final. No discussion will be entered into ".

To me, that clearly advertises the management's unwillingness to resolve an issue and keep their clients happy by pre-exempting themselves from disputes right in the T&C.

Why don't they just say .... "Oh, btw, if you have a discrepancy, you're f**k'd.''

That said, I'm going to go back and RE-read all the T&C of the places I play at, just to make sure. lol....

 

[vinylweatherman]

I'm making it a habit to avoid any casino that states '' Management decision is final. No discussion will be entered into ".

To me, that clearly advertises the management's unwillingness to resolve an issue and keep their clients happy by pre-exempting themselves from disputes right in the T&C.

Why don't they just say .... "Oh, btw, if you have a discrepancy, you're f**k'd.''

That said, I'm going to go back and RE-read all the T&C of the places I play at, just to make sure. lol....

That would mean quitting online play altogether, the difference is between those casinos that use this term only for FRAUD cases, against those that use it as an excuse for not paying players because they just feel like it, but cannot justify it through the main T & C.

 

[SnowKatt]

Well, Club world's statement says

17. In the event of a dispute, all decisions made by the casino will be final.

That is a reasonable statement. It does'nt hit me with the impression that they aren't willing to try to reach resolutions before closing the case.

I'm good with that.

 

[The Dude]

Well I just got off of the phone with Interwetten - and yes, there was a problem. It was a technical problem - not a manual malfunction that affected the way in which this played out.

The problem went undiscovered for about a week - the reason for the delay is this: bonus programs will generally operate in the black (make a profit). If it suddenly produces a loss for the casino, then the casino will investigate to see what's wrong - that didn't happen in this situation since the casino didn't get hit hard until the second week. That's when they checked into this.

The bonuses should have been issued on the following day - not immediately. The terms and conditions should have been more concise stating that the bonus was an accumulative bonus - it didn't, but it did say it would be paid out on the next day. The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. Side note: they need to hire a native English speaker to write their terms and conditions.

From my understanding, the techno glitch allowed the bonus to be credited right away. For those of you receiving this bonus as such, did you question the CSR on why this was happening, or did you feel this was normal procedure (you read the Terms and Conditions right?)? Players should have been alarmed that something was off.

When the casino found out that there was a malfunction, they sent an incident report to the LGA. The LGA will get back to them within the next eight weeks or so and make a final decision on this. Their terms and conditions clearly state Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

My suggestion for players is to ensure that the LGA has your issue on file so that they have a record of this. The PABs that have come through here will be forwarded to the LGA - I think we have four.

End note: I don't believe anyone is out of pocket since this was backrolled to the first deposits, right? They can't simply remove bonuses from winnings from players who were using these bonuses to generate winnings. That can't be done.

 

[Ferretktf]

thanks Bryan

Did they tell you what they did to accounts that actually made a NETT LOSS (after bonuses).

By their explanation they should have refunded their losses - yes? In fact they should have voided all play for the entire 24 hour period (as all games counted towards the bonus). Every single player should have been impacted in either a positive or negative way.

We have anecdotal evidence from other players that this did not happen -- i.e. Interwetten kept the profits from the losing players, while denying the winnings to the successful players.

Net result

Winning players = level
Losing players = losers
Interwetten = winners.

Had I bust out (I was down to my last 100 from a 2500 bankroll - I had no more funds available to deposit had that gone) then I am 100% convinced that my 2500 would not have been returned to me and that I would probably still be none the wiser today - I would have just put it down to bad luck, and kicked myself for chasing my losses.



I did PAB so thanks for forwarding it on. Will I receive the decision of the LGA from you, or will they contact me? Should I follow-up with the LGA or wait for the eight weeks to run its course?

as an aside, I am a little concerned that this seems to be accepted as a technical error - for which they appear to have get-out clauses, when I still believe the promotion worked the way it was written, i.e. if there was an error it was human, in the way that they structured the promotion. What are your expectations of the likely outcome?

For those of you receiving this bonus as such, did you question the CSR on why this was happening, or did you feel this was normal procedure (you read the Terms and Conditions right?)? Players should have been alarmed that something was off.

No .. .there as no need to contact CSR because this is what I expected having read the terms and conditions where it said for each 100 lost, 10 would be credited. That is precisely what was happening so I certainly wasn't alarmed.

 

[thelawnet]

Well I just got off of the phone with Interwetten - and yes, there was a problem. It was a technical problem - not a manual malfunction that affected the way in which this played out.

The problem went undiscovered for about a week - the reason for the delay is this: bonus programs will generally operate in the black (make a profit). If it suddenly produces a loss for the casino, then the casino will investigate to see what's wrong - that didn't happen in this situation since the casino didn't get hit hard until the second week. That's when they checked into this.

The bonuses should have been issued on the following day - not immediately. The terms and conditions should have been more concise stating that the bonus was an accumulative bonus - it didn't, but it did say it would be paid out on the next day.

So they are admitting they didn't say it was a cumulative bonus.

They are only arguing on a technicality that the bonus should have been credited on the following day but was credited the same day.

That is their ONLY basis for this.

The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. Side note: they need to hire a native English speaker to write their terms and conditions.

From my understanding, the techno glitch allowed the bonus to be credited right away. For those of you receiving this bonus as such, did you question the CSR on why this was happening, or did you feel this was normal procedure (you read the Terms and Conditions right?)? Players should have been alarmed that something was off.

I don't see why.

As you note, the terms are a bit stilted in their English.

Sunday Cashback Madness

How it works:

For every EUR 100,00 you lose at the Interwetten Online Casino, you get EUR 10,00 back.

Terms and Conditions:

This promotion is valid to all Interwetten Casino Real Money customers.
Promotion days in February 2008 are:
Sunday, 03.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 10.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 17.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 24.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET

This promotion is subject to Interwetten Casino standard rules, terms and conditions.

To qualify for the cashback bonus you must make a transfer of funds from your Sportsbook real money account in to Casino chips and wager at least EUR 100,00 on the respective promotion day at Interwetten Online Casino.

For each EUR 100,00 loss at the Interwetten Online Casino, the customer will get EUR 10,00 Chips credited to his Interwetten Casino account.

The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. There are no wager requirements for the Cashback Bonus.

Interwetten Casino reserves the right to refuse all promotions and bonuses to players who do not comply with this condition.

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

Management decision is final. No discussion will be entered into.

Those conditions are additional to the regular terms and conditions that you can find here.

The sentence "The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days." is gobbledegook frankly. It doesn't say "the bonus will be credited to the player's account the day after the promotion". It says "one of the following days". To me, the most logical reading of that is that it is referring to the days of the promotion (i.e. the Sundays, 3rd, 10th, 17th, 24th February, that is the days I played on). Nobody writes "one of the following dayS" when they mean the next DAY.

So in the first instance, the terms certainly do not say to me 'the bonus will be given to you the next day'. When you're playing and you start playing and a bonus is credited to your account with every loss, and you notice (and let's assume that you do notice, because when you read confused prose like that in the Interwetten terms, it's not necessarily even going to register, it just washes over you, a sludge of legalese (did you read every term in the last contract you signed?). You don't spent half an hour with a lawyer and a legal dictionary. You read the terms, you look for anything like 'no video poker allowed', and then you play. You don't start lexical analysis on the text) the terms say "The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. ", you assume that the following days is a reference to the promotion days, and they just haven't ordered their terms properly.

So that's the first point. They claim that their terms said the bonus would be credited the next day. I dispute this. It's certainly ambiguous.

And according to Maltese Law (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, at 46), "terms shall be written in plain and intelligible language which can be
understood by the consumers to whom the contract is directed", and moreover "Where any term is ambivalent or any doubt arises about the
meaning of a term, the interpretation most favourable to the
consumer shall prevail".

Clearly there is quite some doubt, the terms are neither plain nor intelligible.

Quite apart from their attempts to cling to this appallingly written sentence, which as I have shown, fail to save them, the fact is that even if the terms HAD said "we will pay the bonus into your account the next day", and they had credited it the same day, it's not grounds to void people's winnings.

Whether they give me 10 on Sunday or Monday it's still 10.

I had several thousand pounds in my interwetten sports account. Most of the money never got transferred to my casino account, because I went about 4k up in the course of a few hands. I later went on a losing run which meant my final profit was about 1500. They seem to be saying that the bonus money in my account shielded me from depositing more, but that argument is utterly fatuous, because as soon as my balance reached zero, I would transfer more from the ample balance I had in my sports account. You're not going to transfer more money in while there is still money there.

It's just wrong for them to say, 'I know you didn't ask to have the money put in on Sunday, I know you had plenty of cash in your sports account, but because we put the money in on Sunday, and are claiming we should have put it in on Monday, that means we get to keep all your winnings'.

It's cowboy behaviour to say 'we put the money in a day early [which is disputed anyway], so we get to keep all your winnings'. WTF? Does this make sense to ANYONE?

When the casino found out that there was a malfunction, they sent an incident report to the LGA. The LGA will get back to them within the next eight weeks or so and make a final decision on this. Their terms and conditions clearly state Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

There is no malfunction. The system did exactly what they told it to do. Chartwell software, which they use, operates like this. Betfair had a very similar promotion.

There is absolutely not, categorically not, any malfunction.

The only error is the incompetent casino managers who don't understand basic mathematics. That is not the same as a malfunction.

It is not a malfunction when a slots player plays penny slots with a 15% edge until he has lost 10k. He can't ask for a refund, he can't say he had a 'technical reason' (i.e. stupidity), and didn't realise what he was doing, and neither can a professional, multi-million annual profit casino that expects players to entrust them with their personal details, bank account records, and potentially thousands of euros of their cash. They CANNOT welch on its bets on the basis that 'our promotion was not profitable for us'.

My suggestion for players is to ensure that the LGA has your issue on file so that they have a record of this. The PABs that have come through here will be forwarded to the LGA - I think we have four.

Thanks.

Should I forward them my post here? Do you have a reference or something that I can attach it to?

End note: I don't believe anyone is out of pocket since this was backrolled to the first deposits, right? They can't simply remove bonuses from winnings from players who were using these bonuses to generate winnings. That can't be done.

I think everybody is out of pocket at the moment, because they were retrospectively told that it was a bet that they were not allowed to win. That bet only has two options: lose or get nothing. It's not a fair bet, and it's not something a reputable casino should do.

I don't understand why these guys can't step up to the plate and justify themselves properly.

They refuse to answer emails, they refuse to answer phone calls, they refuse to respond on here, and take up your time instead. Businesses make mistakes, they learn from them, take the hit, attract goodwill from it, and move on. As far as I can see they are happy to trash their reputation for a matter of what does not appear to be a huge sum of money for what I understand to be quite a big operation. As an operator, you would shut the promotion down when the mathematics of it started to hit home, you would panic for a while, but then you have to clean things up and face the music. They have refused to do this, and as such the Maltese authorities should take action against them for:

* breach of Maltese law on attempting to construe their terms in their favour as it suits them
* attempting to argue that because THEY credited the bonus a day early (so they claim), they don't have to pay anybody, profiting by their mistake (or they claim it was a mistake) - effectively arguing that they are not responsible for their own actions, and any mistakes they make can be used to screw the player
* arguing that their error of judgement is a 'malfunction', when it is nothing of the kind (a malfunction is something like a blackjack game that comes up 21 every hand, not a promotion that behaves exactly as described)
* welching on bets
* ignoring emails
* refusing to talk to customers. Not an acceptable level of customer service.

The level of acceptable service for an online casino is really not that difficult to define. Just basic stuff. Answer the phones, respond to emails, pay your winners. Let's hope they reach this level soon.