Intertops casino slots RTP issue

[AudiManinBoro]

Lol you dont have to have a marketing degree or any degree for that matter to start an online casino. Just cos you have the dosh, doesnt mean your clever enough to run one. Wish I could afford to run an RTG, I would show them how its done and I really would put them all to shame

 

[maphesto]

My knowledge is a little bit limited on this, but I think only WagerWorks et al and Rival softwares publish the RTPs of their slots (though I suspect 1 or 2 of the Rival ones are typo's and not correct)

Which ones do you suspect are typos?

 

[Nifty29]

The whole sample size issue is interesting.

I know someone said that if they dont get 94% back out of 100 spins then they are being ripped off.....and others say similar things.

My question is this - what is an acceptable amount of spins in which you want to have a return close to the RTP?

If you have 10 spins@$1, do you want to get $9.40 back? If you have 50 spins@$1, do you want $47 back?? etc etc

If the answer to any of those questions is 'yes', then the only way you are going to get it is to find a slot that returns 94% of every single bet made...i.e. each time you spin $1 you get 0.94c back. Trouble is, there is no such slot, and if there were, it would be a) boring as hell and b) absolutely impossible to win!

So, for the casino to give you a chance to win at certain times (we all know its not possible all the time) the paytable and reels have to be adjusted to allow large wins for certain combinations and almost nothing for others - and to allow for the possibility of a non-winning spin.

Another thing to consider is this: If you had 200 spins@$1 and only got about $40 back, would you feel ripped off? If you then decided to have one more spin (#201) and hit a $300 payout, would you then still feel ripped off? Do you see where Im coming from? RTP has nothing to do with how much you should expect to win each session - it is purely an measurement of how much the game will give back to the player over the life of the game (the 'life' of the game has been explained to me as the number of spins required to cover every possible combination of the reels e.g. if there are 5 million combinations possible, then over 5 million spins you would expect the RTP to be fairly accurate, although certain combinations may come up more than once or not at all, so the actual 'life' of the game will in reality be greater than the actual number of combinations)

Hope this helps someone to understand. I know it makes a lot of sense to me.

Mind you, if someone came out tomorrow with conclusive proof that all online slots are totally rigged and not at all random and they always have been, would anyone actually stop playing?? I mean, we have all had big wins and big losses over our 'careers', so does it matter how they come about? As long as the RTP is reasonable, does it matter how it is generated? Either way, it still comes down to being in the right place at the right time. As for people thinking that RTPs claimed by online casinos are a load of rubbish, come over to Australia and play the Government statutory-regulated 84% RTP machines for a few weeks and you will see that the online slots pay much much better. Put it this way - I havent played a land based machine for over 18 months and I have about 1000 of them within 10 mins drive from my house at 8 different venues.

 

[maphesto]

The whole sample size issue is interesting.

I know someone said that if they dont get 94% back out of 100 spins then they are being ripped off.....and others say similar things.

My question is this - what is an acceptable amount of spins in which you want to have a return close to the RTP?

If you have 10 spins@$1, do you want to get $9.40 back? If you have 50 spins@$1, do you want $47 back?? etc etc

I don´t have the answer but at some low variance slots at Rival they have published things like:

Estimated RTP =95%

Out of 1000 spins, at least 82% of the estimated RTP should be paid.

This is a low variance slot.

If the answer to any of those questions is 'yes', then the only way you are going to get it is to find a slot that returns 94% of every single bet made...i.e. each time you spin $1 you get 0.94c back. Trouble is, there is no such slot, and if there were, it would be a) boring as hell and b) absolutely impossible to win!

If it was land based it would be the perfect money laundering machine..

Mind you, if someone came out tomorrow with conclusive proof that all online slots are totally rigged and not at all random and they always have been, would anyone actually stop playing??

I wouldn´t, but I´m sure that many of those true believers would stop play and many players would change their betting pattern.
But I also believe that among many of the current doubting players there aren´t many that thinks that they are totally rigged.

As long as the RTP is reasonable, does it matter how it is generated? Either way, it still comes down to being in the right place at the right time.

Agree!

 

[KasinoKing]

Which ones do you suspect are typos?

Hole in Won and Cosmic Quest 2.
(They're too high)

I don´t have the answer but at some low variance slots at Rival they have published things like:

Estimated RTP =95%
Out of 1000 spins, at least 82% of the estimated RTP should be paid.
This is a low variance slot.

Sounds about right.

If it was land based it would be the perfect money laundering machine..

Nope - don't get it - you're going to have to elaborate on that!

I wouldn´t, but I´m sure that many of those true believers would stop play and many players would change their betting pattern.
But I also believe that among many of the current doubting players there aren´t many that thinks that they are totally rigged.

Sooooo.. they're happy to play slots which are only a little bit rigged...
Hmmmm.

KK

 

[chuchu59]

The whole sample size issue is interesting.

I know someone said that if they dont get 94% back out of 100 spins then they are being ripped off.....and others say similar things.

My question is this - what is an acceptable amount of spins in which you want to have a return close to the RTP?

If you have 10 spins@$1, do you want to get $9.40 back? If you have 50 spins@$1, do you want $47 back?? etc etc

If the answer to any of those questions is 'yes', then the only way you are going to get it is to find a slot that returns 94% of every single bet made...i.e. each time you spin $1 you get 0.94c back. Trouble is, there is no such slot, and if there were, it would be a) boring as hell and b) absolutely impossible to win!

So, for the casino to give you a chance to win at certain times (we all know its not possible all the time) the paytable and reels have to be adjusted to allow large wins for certain combinations and almost nothing for others - and to allow for the possibility of a non-winning spin.

Another thing to consider is this: If you had 200 spins@$1 and only got about $40 back, would you feel ripped off? If you then decided to have one more spin (#201) and hit a $300 payout, would you then still feel ripped off? Do you see where Im coming from? RTP has nothing to do with how much you should expect to win each session - it is purely an measurement of how much the game will give back to the player over the life of the game (the 'life' of the game has been explained to me as the number of spins required to cover every possible combination of the reels e.g. if there are 5 million combinations possible, then over 5 million spins you would expect the RTP to be fairly accurate, although certain combinations may come up more than once or not at all, so the actual 'life' of the game will in reality be greater than the actual number of combinations)

Hope this helps someone to understand. I know it makes a lot of sense to me.

Mind you, if someone came out tomorrow with conclusive proof that all online slots are totally rigged and not at all random and they always have been, would anyone actually stop playing?? I mean, we have all had big wins and big losses over our 'careers', so does it matter how they come about? As long as the RTP is reasonable, does it matter how it is generated? Either way, it still comes down to being in the right place at the right time. As for people thinking that RTPs claimed by online casinos are a load of rubbish, come over to Australia and play the Government statutory-regulated 84% RTP machines for a few weeks and you will see that the online slots pay much much better. Put it this way - I havent played a land based machine for over 18 months and I have about 1000 of them within 10 mins drive from my house at 8 different venues.

Great analysis Nifty! TBH I also think that most RTG slots are maintained at the 93% -96% RTP level. However, it does seem that the big win is very elusive nowadays and only comes around when you have an RTP of 60%-70% over several hundred spins. Unless it's a real titanic win, the big win only covers up a huge portion of your loss and you never really get ahead. That's from my experience and what fellow posters have been saying all along. They never get ahead at any stage from the word go.

Many players are able to accomodate some losses and in the past you will sometimes get wins that will exceed your losses for the sessions in question and if you decide to call it a day you win. However, it does seem that even big wins dont come soon enough to eradicate your losses for any particular session and that is why many posters here complain that they have lost dozens of deposits in a row. Just as possible that the huge win can come in the 500th spin it should easily have come out in the first 20 spins. Maybe I havent played enough recently but each and every time I need to take hundreds of spins to hit a big one and at that stage the balance could not revert even to the original deposit amount. In the past, it was possible for one to come ahead for a couple of deposits in a dozen. Now that rarely happens.

 

[maphesto]

@KK:

The "money laundrey machine" i was referring to was Nifty:s invented machine that gave 94% back on every single spin.

It was a joke but based on reality:

At many places there are known facts that criminals with "dirty money" do pretty much everything to get them "cleaned". Criminals even pay 10% overprice for winning lottery tickets.

In this way they can use the money to everything without people wonder about how they got their money.

An example from Sweden: When land based casinos became legal in Sweden(we have only 4 and they are owned by the government ) there was a couple of players who on Roulette bet huge money on either red or black and a little loser who bet on 0..

This meant that they in the end had lost only the house edge and they got a receipt from the casino when they cashed in. With the receipt they had no worries about people wondering about the money.

After a while people understood what was going on and they are controlling it very strictly.

 

[maphesto]

Hole in Won and Cosmic Quest 2.
(They're too high)

But those "skill based" bonus round mess things up I guess. The estimated average are(according to Rival) 96/95% .

That´s more normal.

Sooooo.. they're happy to play slots which are only a little bit rigged...
Hmmmm.

 

[KasinoKing]

But those "skill based" bonus round mess things up I guess. The estimated average are(according to Rival) 96/95% .
That´s more normal.

Where did you get that from?
I just checked at Box24 and they still say:-
Hole in Won = 99%
Cosmic Quest 2 = 98%

IMO both these are typos and definitely wrong.

KK

 

[maphesto]

Where did you get that from?
I just checked at Box24 and they still say:-
Hole in Won = 99%
Cosmic Quest 2 = 98%

IMO both these are typos and definitely wrong.

KK

Strange that Box24 have written the high RTP when it´s skill based.
It´s from Rivals own marketing material.

This example is from Hole in one, it looks the same with the other game but the numbers are 98/95 there.

 

[KasinoKing]

Strange that Box24 have written the high RTP when it´s skill based.

I think we've had this conversation before, I'm 99.99999% sure it's RIVAL who supply the rules pages to ALL Rival casinos and that no casino can alter them in any way at all.
I would bet that if you logged into every single Rival casino they would all say the return is 99 on Hole in Won... and NO I'm not volunteering to do it!

It´s from Rivals own marketing material.
This example is from Hole in one, it looks the same with the other game but the numbers are 98/95 there.

Where exactly are you getting this data from?
(Can you PM me if you don't want to post it)

Thanks,
KK

 

[maphesto]

I think we've had this conversation before, I'm 99.99999% sure it's RIVAL who supply the rules pages to ALL Rival casinos and that no casino can alter them in any way at all.

You are probably right here, but I don´t remember it..

I would bet that if you logged into every single Rival casino they would all say the return is 99 on Hole in Won... and NO I'm not volunteering to do it!

You are even more lazy than I!

Where exactly are you getting this data from?
(Can you PM me if you don't want to post it)

PM is coming!

 

[tammy01]

First time posting

Hi everyone. This is my first time posting and I would like to wish everyone good luck on gaming sites. Have a lucky day all

 

[KasinoKing]

Hi everyone. This is my first time posting and I would like to wish everyone good luck on gaming sites. Have a lucky day all

Posted in COMPLETELY the wrong place - but welcome to the forum anyway!

KK

 

[bonustreak]

Not sure if this thread is even about Intertops anymore since it has been so derailed now but I just wanted to explain that the rep has just recently made it back home from a conference. The mess in Europe with the ash cloud has caused many in the industry troubles on getting home.

Ok also to address this complaint I have 100% trust in Intertops and I know they are not rigging this casino(another thread on this forum an expert explained it is nearly impossible for this to be done in these days of iGaming). At times players have a bad day and they scream foul, when what they should do is take a break from gambling.

I personally know the team at Intertops and I can say with no doubt in my mind that this is one of the most trustworthy casinos online. We all know that it comes down to trust and honor of the actual operator of the casino to prove if they are a safe place to play at and these guys here are above the top when it comes to trust and honor. Don't forget who stood by you USA players when MG turned their backs!

Anyway thread titles like this one is not fair IMO.

 

[bernynhel]

My advice... don't hold your breath!

KK

Should a asked him what days & at what time some specific RJs are jumping off, long as yer wasting yer breath!

 

[Rusty]

Links please!


RTG - what else!

KK

Come on KK you have posted in most of them!
I am sure you can find them if you really want to.

To Intertops.

I asked you specifically for the setting of the RTP of each of the slots at the time I played. Unfortunately that request was ignored.

Could you now share with me and the forum the RTP setting on each of the slots I played during sessions where my return on deposit was below 80%?

Are you stating publicly that at no time were any of your slots set at less than 93% during my play?

Are you stating publicly that there is no form of weighting used to alter the RTP of these slots?

You say a sample size of a few Thousand spins is too small show that the RTP/variance is changed in that sample or that the RTP was at any time below 93%. I beg to differ.

Let's have the reel stop data for reel 1 on Ronin then graph the Ronin symbol frequency next to the expected frequency of this symbol.

Let's do the same with MisterMoney and the white diamiond symbol.

Let's do the same with Cleopatra's Gold with the Wild and Pyramid symbols

Let's also graph the expected hit/win frequency(variance) alongside my hit frequency. (this is very important as it will clearly show any anomalies)

Let's do all this on the reelstrips set at 93%

Now let's see just how far outside expected variance my results are and look for anomalous data.
Hey, maybe you just have a faulty RNG.

I think by providing the above and appropriate play logs you have the chance to clearly dismiss my claim that your slots are rigged or at times set to such a low RTP that the player has little to no chance of winning which is tantamount to rigged.
That seems fair. Let's base this on pure statistical analysis of the data.

Thank you.

 

[Rusty]

@Rusty:

I have read old post of yours(I have been reading very lot of old threads here to catch up) and your knowledge is far beyond the average of the readers here.

When you write "this casino has rigged slots" most of the readers think that you are just another loser.

Unfortunately many post begins with either "Holy Underwear Casino stole my money" or "Magic Foot Casino is rigged".

Can you give us more information about the rigged games?

I am always interested to read about how we can determine how the slot machine is loose or tight.

To suddenly see that the wild symbol on reel two hasn´t been seen for 50 spins.. When it´s infact according to mathematics is there at least every third spin is interesting to me.

What software do they have at Intertops?

Yes you are right that posts simply remarking on losing sessions are easily dismissed. Unfortunately I don't have the time for due diligence anymore but hopefully my post above is a little more substantive in that regard.
I should not post when I don't have the time but sometimes you just feel they should not get away with it.

Whether the slots are loose or tight should become apparent fairly quickly but of course you need to deposit to find that out.
KK gives some very valid strategy and playing styles on his site and different slots and platforms have different quirks.
Nothing is cut and dry but as a casino may have different slots set at different RTP and they all maintain a random element but as a general rule for RTG if the scatter symbols are fairly infrequent or the wild symbols on reel 1 and 2 are then it is time to sigh.
Also if you receive a very poor bonus round don't assume the next one must be better - when a slot sucks it keeps sucking (just another of those amazing anomalies that the stock sample size too small attempts to fix)

i agree:
after reading several older posts of yours (very interesting!)
i'd also be inclined to have you elaborate on this.
nevermind the possible people that might "try" and discourage you from being more informative: they can only succeed if you give a damn
i never think its pointless to share info like that:
just make sure to stay correct, for forum policy's sake.
say: im led to believe..., ...because i observed following,...correct me if im wrong etc.

No, you are completely correct and we should always use moderate language even when we have strong evidence to back our claims.
It is difficult to stay emotionally detached when you know certain Casinos are cheating their players and some forum members who have the morality and integrity of a killer virus will do and say anything to protect their income.

and yes good casinos and affiliates do still exist but the infestation is almost out of control.

People who are neutral should ask the motives of those, such as I, that say such and such a casino is tight or such and such a software plays a certain way but even more importantly they should question the motives of those who seek to deny or besmirch in the face of facts.

A Casinos motive for denial is perfectly obvious.
Others who make money in the industry may well have a bias.
Losing players may well have a bias.

All you can do is keep an open mind and decide if what is stated is reproduced in the real world for you.
Don't listen to the debunkers unless they are supplying evidence and data. 99/100 they will only try to discredit the poster as that is all they have.
If they are supplying data consider the source and if it is independent.
And always, always remember the Casinos are to all intents and purpose unregulated and you are ultimately relying on their good will only for a fair game.
Yeah, makes you think doesn't it?

 

[anne1]

Hi Rusty,

That's annoying. I play online slots at Winaday.com. I've never had a problem there. Also, FYI, they have a responsive support staff too.

 

[Casinomeister]

Not sure if this thread is even about Intertops anymore since it has been so derailed now but I just wanted to explain that the rep has just recently made it back home from a conference. The mess in Europe with the ash cloud has caused many in the industry troubles on getting home.

Ok also to address this complaint I have 100% trust in Intertops and I know they are not rigging this casino(another thread on this forum an expert explained it is nearly impossible for this to be done in these days of iGaming). At times players have a bad day and they scream foul, when what they should do is take a break from gambling.

I personally know the team at Intertops and I can say with no doubt in my mind that this is one of the most trustworthy casinos online. We all know that it comes down to trust and honor of the actual operator of the casino to prove if they are a safe place to play at and these guys here are above the top when it comes to trust and honor. Don't forget who stood by you USA players when MG turned their backs!

Anyway thread titles like this one is not fair IMO.

I have to agree with Bonustreak. The operators of Intertops are some of the most honest people in the business. I don't think this is an Intertops issue - it's a software issue.

I'll point the reps into the direction of this thread, and maybe get some answers for Rusty's question. As Bonustreak mentioned, when this thread was going full speed - the operators were stuck in Amsterdam.

 

[RobWin]

I have to agree with Bonustreak. The operators of Intertops are some of the most honest people in the business. I don't think this is an Intertops issue - it's a software issue.

I'll point the reps into the direction of this thread, and maybe get some answers for Rusty's question. As Bonustreak mentioned, when this thread was going full speed - the operators were stuck in Amsterdam.

They have already been here and gone in Post #10. I would like to hear them address my suggestion to them in Post #11 of supplying Rusty with his life time player logs there as well since they stated in Post #10 that his sample size was too small to make a determination....
____
____

 

[Rusty]

They have already been here and gone in Post #10. I would like to hear them address my suggestion to them in Post #11 of supplying Rusty with his life time player logs there as well since they stated in Post #10 that his sample size was too small to make a determination....
____
____

The sample size won't be more than a few Thousand spins Rob as I rarely played there because of the poor returns.
I have been ahead on 1 deposit in the past but my contention is that the RTP is set well below 90% at times which is why successive deposits on the same date bare similar results.
What I am really interested in is the data for the reel stops and bonus features as I believe the software is weighted and so this data is strongly tied into the RTP/variance.

Tell me what the weighting is for the bonus round on Loose Caboose for example and how it differs with a change of RTP.
Graph the frequency of small returns (say x2 bet and less) against expected frequency at 93%)
Do the same with wild symbol frequency for Reel 1 on the slots I suggest.
Cleopatra's Gold, Ronin, Mr Money.

My overall RTP will quite low but that is only part of the story and the real juice is in the data I have requested.

 

[Rusty]

I have to agree with Bonustreak. The operators of Intertops are some of the most honest people in the business. I don't think this is an Intertops issue - it's a software issue.

I'll point the reps into the direction of this thread, and maybe get some answers for Rusty's question. As Bonustreak mentioned, when this thread was going full speed - the operators were stuck in Amsterdam.

It is certainly a software issue but it is also an Intertops issue as they no doubt set the RTP of their slots.
If they are honest then that is great because it means they will get the data I have requested (see reply to Rob and previous posts) and we can have a frank and open discussion about what constitutes a fair game and a rigged slot. That has to be in an honest Casinos interests.

Maybe they can be the operator to break the silence about how the slots really work and we can start moving forward.
My sample size at Intertops may be relatively small but I believe still significant - my sample size over all RTG is substantial and the sample size of all RTG players on this forum must be huge. As long as we stick to real world results and discuss them properly I will be attentive and respectful.

 

[Casinomeister]

It is certainly a software issue but it is also an Intertops issue as they no doubt set the RTP of their slots.
If they are honest then that is great because it means they will get the data I have requested (see reply to Rob and previous posts) and we can have a frank and open discussion about what constitutes a fair game and a rigged slot. That has to be in an honest Casinos interests.

Maybe they can be the operator to break the silence about how the slots really work and we can start moving forward.
My sample size at Intertops may be relatively small but I believe still significant - my sample size over all RTG is substantial and the sample size of all RTG players on this forum must be huge. As long as we stick to real world results and discuss them properly I will be attentive and respectful.

They may have the ability to select one of three RTPs - it doesn't mean they do it. A few of the operators here have never touched this - they leave it at the default setting. I'm not sure about Intertops - I can't speak for them.

Player logs have to be requested from RTG. I don't know why RTG does this, but this is on my wish list to have changed. Normally the casino contacts RTG and then RTG gets back to them with the logs within a couple of weeks. That's my experience.

 

[Tengil]

They may have the ability to select one of three RTPs - it doesn't mean they do it. A few of the operators here have never touched this - they leave it at the default setting. I'm not sure about Intertops - I can't speak for them.

Player logs have to be requested from RTG. I don't know why RTG does this, but this is on my wish list to have changed. Normally the casino contacts RTG and then RTG gets back to them with the logs within a couple of weeks. That's my experience.

I have always got my logs pretty swiftly (within a week), when at MG you have to wait for months.