Intercasino??

[boogaooga]

I know that streaks, ups and downs, etc., are all a part of gambling, and I've lost and won my share of hands over the course of my casino experiences. I don't normally bitch when I lose - that's all part of luck and the game.

But I played for the first time at Intercasino today, and my results there seem to be outside the realm of probability. I played multi-hand blackjack there, spreading 5 hands at the $1 minimum...and in 623 hands, I managed to lose a over 150 units. That's nearly a 25% house edge, over hundreds of hands, on a game that should theoretically have a less than 1% edge!

Here's the way my stats looked by the time I finally had had enough:

As you can see, I lost over twice as many straight hands as I won (and more double-downs than not) over a fairly long term, while playing perfect basic strategy (I know it almost by reflex).

After that I switched to single-hand BJ at the $2 minimum and crashed out completely a few hundred hands later - but that's not surprising, considering by that point I only had a 13-bet stake.

Like I said, I'm willing to take my licks now and then, but something really feels wrong about this one. I've never had results *anywhere* close to this...positive OR negative.

 

[trick]

It sure can be a fun experience playing BJ and sometimes U just feel robbed... If you win in the long run, it doesn't really matter anyways.... I have had unbelievable winningstreaks also... (not at InterCasino, though )

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/likely-or-not.5399/?t=5399

 

[bjking]

Hi,

This is not unusual for Intercasino. I play there a lot and even though i am not naive enough to think its random i do know that when the pay they pay big. I don't know if its down to the individual or if its the day you play that has the largest affect on wheather you win or loose. Two theories.
1. Each individual will win/lose depending on previous results.
2. Casino pays dependent on bank. eg pays player/players a large sum one day (or even the same time), takes from others to pay. Just a large movement of funds completely fixed rather like a massive pub fruit machine. Its software after all.
My advise to you is play there next month when you will get another bonus (more time to play) and i bet you win big if you follow a progressive staking system.
Good Luck

 

[KasinoKing]

1. Each individual will win/lose depending on previous results.

An interesting and extremely scary theory!
If this could be proved to be true it would be explosive!

However, I am inclined to almost agree with you.
I've played at Inter for years and done very well, but in recent months it feels like the mother of all 'switches' has been turned on! Previously I would win at some games and lose at others, like you'd expect - but these days it's just lose, lose, lose!

I'm almost at the point of not playing there any more - which is a tragedy for my all-time favourite casino.

Anybody else noticed a recent steep decline in fortune at Inter???

 

[caruso]

Hi,

This is not unusual for Intercasino. I play there a lot and even though i am not naive enough to think its random i do know that when the pay they pay big. I don't know if its down to the individual or if its the day you play that has the largest affect on wheather you win or loose. Two theories.
1. Each individual will win/lose depending on previous results.
2. Casino pays dependent on bank. eg pays player/players a large sum one day (or even the same time), takes from others to pay. Just a large movement of funds completely fixed rather like a massive pub fruit machine. Its software after all.
My advise to you is play there next month when you will get another bonus (more time to play) and i bet you win big if you follow a progressive staking system.
Good Luck

No offence, but this is nonsense.

I don't know the SD on five hands, but I'll take a guess at 3.5. Assuming that's about correct, then the posted loss is about 1.7 SDs, which about a 1 in...15-ish?..shot. Not exactly too big a deal.

You cannot play five $1 spots and expect the same variance as playing one $1 spot, lol.

Although I don't track my Crypto gameplay results closely - I don't feel the need to - everything seems pretty much on target based on my overall recorded wins and losses.

 

[gfkostas]

I given up in online casinos even for casinos such intercasino .Fair or unfair doesnt matter to me anymore,I prefer to visit my local casino and have a 100% fair game plus the view is a lot better there .Oh sure ill keep collecting the bonuses but thats about it.

 

[rasim]

I know that streaks, ups and downs, etc., are all a part of gambling, and I've lost and won my share of hands over the course of my casino experiences. I don't normally bitch when I lose - that's all part of luck and the game.

But I played for the first time at Intercasino today, and my results there seem to be outside the realm of probability. I played multi-hand blackjack there, spreading 5 hands at the $1 minimum...and in 623 hands, I managed to lose a over 150 units. That's nearly a 25% house edge, over hundreds of hands, on a game that should theoretically have a less than 1% edge!

Here's the way my stats looked by the time I finally had had enough:

As you can see, I lost over twice as many straight hands as I won (and more double-downs than not) over a fairly long term, while playing perfect basic strategy (I know it almost by reflex).

After that I switched to single-hand BJ at the $2 minimum and crashed out completely a few hundred hands later - but that's not surprising, considering by that point I only had a 13-bet stake.

Like I said, I'm willing to take my licks now and then, but something really feels wrong about this one. I've never had results *anywhere* close to this...positive OR negative.

Same story here...I have played at cryptologic casinos a lot in the past. It always seemed to me to be a fair sotware, but this month i couldnt believe my eyes when i played blackjack at Intercasino, William Hill, totalbet and ukbetting casinos. My house edge was also about 30% and no need to mention that i have lost about 5k. I am really scared to place any more deposits into the casinos after this negative experience. One more time, not that i am dissappointed about losin a lot of money- you should be ready to lose if you play at any casinos- but i am really dissapointed to see fair games at Intercasino and others becoming very unfair!

P.S. for more info: i usually play big- 25 units a hand and not a multihand version.

 

[chuchu59]

Rasim,

Dont be scared playing BJ at intercasino. You would be overwhelmed at the results if you played baccarat. 10 to 12 straight losses are very common. Furthermore,the statistics lie. If you play a couple of hands,leave the table and then return,the statistics are totally different. Remember its a multi-player table,so the previous results should be the same buit they just arent. Blimey.

 

[scrollock]

Hi,

This is not unusual for Intercasino. I play there a lot and even though i am not naive enough to think its random i do know that when the pay they pay big. I don't know if its down to the individual or if its the day you play that has the largest affect on wheather you win or loose. Two theories.
1. Each individual will win/lose depending on previous results.
2. Casino pays dependent on bank. eg pays player/players a large sum one day (or even the same time), takes from others to pay. Just a large movement of funds completely fixed rather like a massive pub fruit machine. Its software after all.
My advise to you is play there next month when you will get another bonus (more time to play) and i bet you win big if you follow a progressive staking system.
Good Luck

i have to agree with both those statements above

for 1) i would say this is definetly true of chartwell, for example since playing at coral (eurobet) last year till jan this year, my worst result was -5 and best was about +35 on the monthly,overall on average the results averaged out to what they should be, their sister site (coral) i had similar results,but then in jan i hit 4 deuces for a nice win (200). since then i have lost at eurobet every single month and have lost heavily, usually having to redepositing 25 which is then promptly lost, for past 5 months my average loss at this site, even after being paid the bonus is -25. yet at corals,where ive had no big wins, the software plays normal. its almost as if the software is saying "we gave you a nice win a while ago, but we are going to take it back"

 

[nektar4d]

it seems to be I got lucky by not joining!

I was about to sign to intercasino after reading lot of good words around.
I did check BJ in fun mode and was disappointing!
I thought myself, if I cant win in fun mode how the hell could I win in real mode?!?
At least their fun mode is fair...it reflects the real mode!

Very informative thread!

 

[Tdoggy]

Agree also

I also played at inter a lot in the past and had some good luck there. But the last few months I have not had any luck at all. I don't know what is going on with them? I am not even going to bother taking them up on their offer next month. I feel it's a waste of time now. Very tough to win. Especially playing B.J. Glad someone finally kept track and shared their results. Inter does not seem fair....

 

[caruso]

Very informative thread!

LOL.

 

[johnsteed]

I think you know when things are REALLY bad, when you can split the A's on a dealer showing a bust card. It's the amount of times you lose or break even that's most frustrating. I think people should take note (just splitting the A's... nothing more) of how many times they do and don't win, specifically when a dealer shows anything from a 3-6 card. I'm willing to bet that the results will be incredibly poor. I don't know the odds on it, but it should heavily favor the player (and it's THE best split...). The player should then post how well they did in those situations (not that I'm going to throw-away another cent into that BJ game... lol).

 

[cpgator]

An interesting and extremely scary theory!
If this could be proved to be true it would be explosive!

However, I am inclined to almost agree with you.
I've played at Inter for years and done very well, but in recent months it feels like the mother of all 'switches' has been turned on! Previously I would win at some games and lose at others, like you'd expect - but these days it's just lose, lose, lose!

I'm almost at the point of not playing there any more - which is a tragedy for my all-time favourite casino.

Anybody else noticed a recent steep decline in fortune at Inter???

Unfortunately, I have experienced the same thing. For, the past three years Intercasino has been my favorite online casino. For the last 2 months I can't win at blackjack.
I don't have the stats to prove it, but it really seems like something has changed. I am also considering not playing there anymore. I don't expect to always win, but I never experienced such a long losing streak anywhere.

 

[johnsteed]

Aside from BJ, how well are the other games playing out for those of you who go there on a regular basis?

 

[The Dude]

Aside from BJ, how well are the other games playing out for those of you who go there on a regular basis?

I made a killing on some of their new slots last night. Hit the bonus round once in Daily Horoscope for $900 on a $20 spin, $1400 bonus winning in the Mardi Gras slots, and did real well in the Ghost one (I can't recall the names off the top of my head). For VP, I play mostly Deuces Wild three play on a dollar coin. Was dealt 4 deuces pat this past April on a $15 bet.

I don't play BJ. I'd rather watch paint peel off a wall.

 

[Tdoggy]

Agree

Black Jack is boring But it's supposed to be the game where the odds are more in your favor then any other game. Not the case at Inter it seems. Nice job Casinomeister at slots. I have never been that lucky at slots. :notworthy

 

[KasinoKing]

Aside from BJ, how well are the other games playing out for those of you who go there on a regular basis?

I am losing at ALL card games, no matter how hard I try. Their slots still seem to be playing the same as before.

The various posts above only serve to back up my worst fear. We can't prove it, of course, but I strongly feel that Inter/Crypto have the ability to 'tweak' the house edge on their software as they see fit. And right now the switch is on max rake!

I don't play BJ. I'd rather watch paint peel off a wall.

I'm with you on that one Meister!

(Except at Intercasino - I'd rather bang 6-inch nails into my scull!)

 

[johnsteed]

Casinomeister

I don't play BJ. I'd rather watch paint peel off a wall.

KasinoKing
...(Except at Intercasino - I'd rather bang 6-inch nails into my scull!)

Hmmm, tough choice... I suppose it COULD be curiously entertaining watching KK bang 6-inch nails into his skull, but we have to factor what kind of paint Casinomeister was referring to, masonry and waterproofing paint, or would it be gloss enamel and marine paint? I suppose you can't go wrong either way.

 

[johnsteed]

KasinoKing

We can't prove it, of course, but I strongly feel that Inter/Crypto have the ability to 'tweak' the house edge on their software as they see fit. And right now the switch is on max rake!

Well, if it were ever on "max rake", I think it's obvious that they've "turned-the-key" on that one, at are presently operating at Def Con 5.

 

[boogaooga]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels like something's up. I've done a little bit of statistical analysis running sample trials, and assuming a house edge of about .5% (per the multi-hand BJ rules listed on Intercasino's web page and the Wizard of Odds's BJ edge calculator), one should expect to bust out completely, losing the whole $190 like I did, once every 3000-3500 times. Since I was playing 5 hands at multi-hand, that may increase the variance some, which I wasn't able to test for, but I would still be very surprised if the odds of such a result were higher than 1 in 1000.

I also wasn't able to run what the odds were of busting out within the first $900 of wagering, but I suspect the odds of that would be considerably longer. So all in all it's extremely long odds, but not impossible...however, that coupled with the other comments here about recent performance from Intercasino makes me all the more suspicious.

 

[chuchu59]

With all that has been said at this thread,can anybody come up and post of some good winning streaks at the tables at intercasino recently. Otherwise,the conspiracy theory would be that they would have to get back their $100 000 tsunami donation somehow.

 

[Macgyver]

With all that has been said at this thread,can anybody come up and post of some good winning streaks at the tables at intercasino recently. Otherwise,the conspiracy theory would be that they would have to get back their $100 000 tsunami donation somehow.

I posted this back on May 14th in the thread about Intercasino's roulette being random:

I withdrew a little under $900 off a $100 deposit last month, playing single player, single hand blackjack at Intercasino. Just letting you know ...

I think I won just a little bit in May (that quote's about April's winnings), but I don't have my spreadsheet on this laptop.

EDIT: Looked it up on my spreadsheet and I won $365 off the $90 deposit in May and roughly $820 off the $100 deposit in April.

 

[The Dude]

...Otherwise,the conspiracy theory would be that they would have to get back their $100 000 tsunami donation somehow.

Well for one thing it was $111,000, and another thing it's a pretty crappy theory. How much do you think exclusive rights to the ad space is worth to begin with?

 

[chuchu59]

Well for one thing it was $111,000, and another thing it's a pretty crappy theory. How much do you think exclusive rights to the ad space is worth to begin with?

Well,I dont think its true either,that's why I am saying its a conspiracy theory. In fact,you can see that I am actually inviting those who have done well recently to post so that things wont be so lop-sided.

 

[caruso]

There is nothing but conjecture and unsubstantiated allegation in this thread, and absolutely no reason for anyone post about "winning streaks" by way of counter balance.

I don't usually take detailed notes of my play, but I decided to run a Crypto test with the intention of posting the results here and putting a stop to the "they must be clawing back that $111,000 Tsunami donation" theorists.

227 hands. Three bet sizes: $5, $30 and 25.

Win: 103
Lose: 107
Push: 17

Dbl win: 15
Dbl lose: 11
Dbl push: 1

Spl win: 2
Spl lose: 2
Spl push: 1

BJ: 14
DBJ: 13

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Crypto.

 

[vgyhnji]

It ain't gonna happen too often but I couldn't agree with Caruso more!

Perhaps you could confirm which Crypto you played at Caruso?

Regardless, and regardless of the sample size 227 hands for Caruso, 623 hands for boogaooga, I posted here the results of over 22,000 Crypto hands which showed a 'fair' result. At any period during those hands a snippet could easily have shown stats like boogaooga's or the other way round, I know they would but I ain't going to trawl through those hands again just to prove it.

We will all experience wacky and wonderful winning and losing sessions, its the nature of the game. Problem is few people concentrate on or post about the 'fair' ones.

 

[vgyhnji]

It might be worth adding that I have recently had bad sessions at other Crypto's, for instance at UKBetting a short and nasty one:

Hands decided = 78
Wins = 27 = 34.62%
Losses = 51 = 65.38%

Double/splits won = 5
Double/splits lost = 9

Blackjacks = 2 = ave 1 in 39!

Awful session but not long and not worth pursuing.

 

[caruso]

Play was at Intercasino US, Intercasino UK, Ritz, Total Bet and William Hill.

I've now added a bit more, from subsequent play. The overall updated figures are:

577 total hands.

Win: 273
Lose: 264
Push: 40

Dbl win: 46
Dbl lose: 16
Dbl push: 4

Spl win: 4
Spl lose: 5
Spl push: 2

BJ: 30
DBJ: 31

Wins: 47% (average 43%)
Losses: 46% (average 49%)
Pushes: 7% (average 9%)

BJs: 5.2% (average 4.8%)

Overall return: 109% (average approx. 99.85%)

"Streaks report" - we love our streaks:

Longest uninterrupted winning streak: 10 (9 wins and a push).
Longest uninterrupted losing streak: 12 (9 losses and 3 pushes).
Most consecutive units won without loss: 10.5.
Most consecutive units lost without win: 9.

Once again, no evidence of any problems at Crypto.

 

[cpgator]

Well, I am happy to report that for me,the long losing streak at Intercasino has ended. I have had several winning sessions in the last week mixed in with a couple of losing ones. As I said before I mostly play blackjack. I usually play the single deck version of the game at $25 a hand and have had sessions where I came out $2000-$5000 thousand ahead a few times over the last couple of years. These recent wins have all been in the $400-$700 range, but I'll take them.
Also, for the first time that I can recall, I have received a Saturday night (EST) withdrawal back in my account this morning (Sunday). In the past any Friday, Saturday, or Sunday withdrawals were not in my Neteller account until Monday Or Tuesday afternoon. Interestingly a larger withdrawal from Friday has not been processed.

 

[boogaooga]

Play was at Intercasino US, Intercasino UK, Ritz, Total Bet and William Hill.

I've now added a bit more, from subsequent play. The overall updated figures are:

577 total hands.

With all due respect, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove here. The complaint here is about Intercasino specifically, so giving us the stats of a bunch of different casinos muddled together, just because they share the same software, is of no real use. And my stats as listed in my original posted were both for more hands than yours, and all at the same casino (Intercasino US).

Congratulations to you if you've won overall from these casinos (I personally have had my fair share of good luck with William Hill too). But I'm not sure how this is supposed to be some sort of refutation of the statistics I posted.

 

[dickens1298]

With all due respect, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove here. The complaint here is about Intercasino specifically, so giving us the stats of a bunch of different casinos muddled together, just because they share the same software, is of no real use. And my stats as listed in my original posted were both for more hands than yours, and all at the same casino (Intercasino US).

Congratulations to you if you've won overall from these casinos (I personally have had my fair share of good luck with William Hill too). But I'm not sure how this is supposed to be some sort of refutation of the statistics I posted.

I believe the overriding assumption is that the same software works the same across casinos, and that casinos cannot "tweak" the software accordingly. If that assumption is true, then caruso's play at the aforementioned IS relevant, since it reflects play at Crypto casinos (the same software used by Intercasino) and is almost equal to your number of hands (roughly 600).

Personally, I take umbrage whenever someone cries "foul!" at the fairness of online casinos. The simplest answer is to not play. Crypto casinos are undeniably streaky, and learning to live with such streaks are part of the learning process. My results are equally streaky - I can lose my entire stake just as easily as winning $3000 (as I did last month).

 

[mac_user]

You can't assume anything when it comes to software-based games. If you think that just because a casino (online or land-based) has a good reputation it can't be cheating players, think again. Do a little research on the American Coin slot machine scandal before you risk any serious money on any computer driven game offered by any casino.

Here's an update on the lawsuit against Cryptologic:

LITIGATION AGAINST CRYPTOLOGIC SETTLED (from online-casinos.com)

Multi-million dollar Websports case dropped

Litigation by WebSports Technologies against Cryptologic has been settled out of court for an undisclosed sum, according to its president, Nick Murphy.

Following press releases from the company, Online-Casinos.com has been following the long-running story since the court action was filed in Toronto on November 22, 2002.

Court File No. 02 CV 240094 CM alleged that Cryptologic Inc. a TSX, Nasdaq and AIM listed company, breached a contract and in order to do so attempted to falsify the outcome of a software testing procedure being conducted by TST Testing systems North America to certify the ProSportsTrade Exchange Game created by WebSports Technologies Inc. to Tasmanian gaming standards.

The case, scheduled for hearing on June 20 this year has now been withdrawn.

Cryptologic had earlier dismissed the claims as "frivolous and without merit," and stated that it would vigorously contest the allegations.

This week Murphy said that WebSports was now moving forward and planned to launch its Pro Sports Exchange product in time for the upcoming NFL season.

 

[Gluten]

After that I switched to single-hand BJ at the $2 minimum and crashed out completely a few hundred hands later - but that's not surprising, considering by that point I only had a 13-bet stake.

I thought the minimum at Inter's SD BJ was 25$?

 

[jpsartre]

He's talking about single-hand BJ, not singe-deck.

 

[KasinoKing]

With all due respect, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove here. The complaint here is about Intercasino specifically, so giving us the stats of a bunch of different casinos muddled together, just because they share the same software, is of no real use. And my stats as listed in my original posted were both for more hands than yours, and all at the same casino (Intercasino US).

Congratulations to you if you've won overall from these casinos (I personally have had my fair share of good luck with William Hill too). But I'm not sure how this is supposed to be some sort of refutation of the statistics I posted.

I don't want to add too much to the 'conspiracy theories' but I do tend to agree with the above.
I regularly play both Intercasino & Will Hill and definitely feel I get a fairer game at Will Hill.
I don't know for sure, but my guess is Intercasino is owned by Cryptologic (or the other way around?), because they always have the new games first. And I agree that just because they are very big and 'reputable', does not mean they would not tweak the software a tiny bit in their favour. With very clever software (as it undoubtedly is) it would be virtually impossible for us mere players to detect/prove. Just a tiny % on the house edge would means $1,000's for them! Think about it....

Have fun - be careful

 

[gfkostas]

This conversation about online casinos cheating will keep going on till armaggedon visit us.If there are no factual evidence i find it a bit 'cowboy attitude' to throw allegations at casinos.Maybe a person gets notified everytime I high roller comes in so he can mainipulate some of his hands..... .You can never know as long as the nature of the games is online.Maybe the online Live casinos will put an end even though I hear rumours that they dont shuffle the decks properly etc. etc.

 

[vedat]

there is no way of a cheating software at cryptologic

hello as i am sure of willhill and intercasino is a very large and big companys they would not damage their reputaions with a bad software there is no other online casinos that you are insured when you win they pay fast no bullshit plus they give monthly bonus every month so if you had some bad sessions its very easy to blame casino

 

[jamiester]

"streaky" = "cheating"

Crypto casinos are undeniably streaky, and learning to live with such streaks are part of the learning process. My results are equally streaky - I can lose my entire stake just as easily as winning $3000 (as I did last month).

I have seen a lot of people say this type of thing in my short time on this forum, and it seems strange. If software is "streaky" then it is not behaving randomly. Even if the overall payout % is correct, if certain results are more likely at certain times than others, this is not random. Fair software would be no more or less streaky than honest and real life situations. If someone proved to me that a casino had "streaky" software, I would not play there.
Don't get me wrong, I know there are streaks in gambling, it is just that if there are two fair casinos, there is no way one could tend to be more streaky than another. At least, no way I can think of.

 

[mitch]

Why would any casino alter generic software which gives them an edge on every bet made?

Ever heard of the Golden Goose?

I wish there really was a casino with software set up to be streaky, whilst still delivering overall results in line with probability.

I would guarantee to make a million in no time at all playing there. Plenty of other players would do the same.

Casinos aren't stupid, they don't need to cheat to win, they are automatic winners, as long as they have a large enough mass of players gambling there.

Mitch

 

[Tdoggy]

Agree

Got to agree. Ever here of "the house edge" Yeah in most cases they are going to win. Now as far as fixed software yeah I believe there is some out there indeed

 

[jamiester]

Not all are fair

Why would any casino alter generic software which gives them an edge on every bet made?

I don't know, to give them more of an edge? We hear about it all the time. Also, if you have streaky games, you can create winning streaks which are more memorable even if you are taking a few points. I am not saying this latter point happens, only that it is a potential rationale.

But my main point is that if it is a fair casino, their games couldn't be any more streaky than any other fair casinos. This "streakiness" is most likely just being imagined by the gambler.

 

[toofast4u]

I am on the 'conspiriacy' side of things. While playing at crypto casinos I have seen things happen that just seem to be a little too ironic for me. Think about it, you really think a casino wouldn't fix software to make an extra buck or two?? While there has been so many people analyizing the data I still think there is something deeper that we are missing. The only real way to find out is to have someone with some inside information. But if there is such information out there I think whoever stepped up and said something would get shut up really quick.

You can scream 'fair game' all you want, but I trust my gut feeling, and its telling me 'stay away'. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck.

I am leaning a little more towards the 'win' being based off of previous results. It would be fairly easy to program the software to make player X lose Y of Z units over a given# of games.

In my experience with crypto, usually you can win, sometimes a substantial amount right after you create an account and make your first few deposits. But then a time afterwards you will consistently be losing 10+ hands in a row, it does seem to be very on and off. I remember that when I was playing, if I were making sizable bets, after a few hands a 10+ hand losing streat would start, but after dropping the bet down to a small amount it definitely loosened up. My best strategy was to vary the bets a great deal, which always seemed to initate maybe a 2-3 win in a row. Don't ask me how this was effective but it seemed to work. Its when you start making say $25 bets and never change, then you hit a brick wall. I did notice something of interest too, when hitting that X number of losses in a row, drop down to a low bet and count how many times in a row you lose. usually that # of losses would leave you with $0 in the account if you stay at that higher betting level, infact almost exactly the number of hands needed to clean house in most cases, the first win would have been the hand after the hand that would have cleaned you out. Just something to chew on Not something I will ever experiment with but you guys can have at it.

 

[mac_user]

"The only real way to find out is to have someone with some inside information. But if there is such information out there I think whoever stepped up and said something would get shut up really quick."

That's true and it's already happened. It did not involve an online casino, but the principle is the same. To find out what happened to a programmer who talked, read this story:

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