Intercasino has confiscated me $8200

[murder1]

JPM and Meister you're my heroes

 

[caruso]

"If any guy and his cohorts are all ultimately deemed to be colluding, does the casino go back and refund money to all the honest players that they cheated. Yeah, right."

I agree with that comment.

If the player was found to be colluding, from whom then has he stolen money? The casino? Of course not. The casino doesn't put up money in poker as it does in the other games, the players do. The casino takes the rake. The casino does not risk a brass farthing of their own.

There are two choices here:

1) Close the player's account and pay him his admittedly illegally-acquired money.

2a) Close the players account and redistribute the money amongst the players he played against. That information is presumably available - who played what, where and when, etc.

2b) Failing 2a, redistribute the money amongst ALL the InterPoker players in some form or another.

The casino has absolutely NO RIGHT to hold onto the money themselves. The money does not belong to them, it belongs to the players.

To keep the money for themselves is theft.

 

[Casinomeister]

Thats interesting ~B.

I am undecided as to whether a player that uses the boards to push a scam should even get the chance to just walk away after holding thier hands up.

So post the info and then i'll decide lol.

Okay, good point. To hell with the ball in anyone's court:

This in from Ryan:

The account was locked due to an alleged involvement in a ring of colluders.

This was first brought to our attention by other players on the poker tables, who complained that two players at the table were in collusion. We received large numbers of complaints against pairs of players, and Inter1178502 was one of those pairs in many cases. After further investigation we discovered that the other accounts people were complaining about were all referred by the same affiliate, most were on the same computer and that they all used the same NETeller accounts.

These same accounts were also used in the casino in order to generate bonuses to the affiliate who referred them.

We have therefore locked the referring affiliate's referred accounts as well as Inter1178502's account and will not be re opening them.

The integrity of our poker room and casino is pretty much our highest priority. So any player or group of players who seek to gain an advantage over other players, or our affiliate program, will be banned.

Sincerely

Ryan Hartley
Manager - InterCasinoPoker

 

[Casinomeister]

"If any guy and his cohorts are all ultimately deemed to be colluding, does the casino go back and refund money to all the honest players that they cheated. Yeah, right."

I agree with that comment....

...2a) Close the players account and redistribute the money amongst the players he played against. That information is presumably available - who played what, where and when, etc....

This is what is being done. Any players who were victimized by the colluders will be given either refunds or compensation bonuses; whatever is higher.

 

[cipher]

I think it would be a pretty good idea for Mr. Hartley to substantiate and/or otherwise prove up these "allegations". Moreover, it seems very peculiar to me that all of this nefarious conduct was purportedly taking place right under the nose of Mr. Hartley for quite some time, but yet he states in his post of yesterday that he had only started to investigate the issue yesterday.

In short, there are more than a few pieces of this puzzle that are not fitting. Which is nothing short of what I've learned to expect from Ryan Hartley. Kind of like the big print giveth and the little print taketh away.

 

[jpm]

Thanks for the info Bryan. I believe that once a scammer comes here and makes a public accusation that turns out to be a flat out lie, they have forfeited any expectation of privacy as to the truth of why they were banned. I think you should post the full story on any of these scumbag scammers without giving them the option of dropping it with no consequences. Otherwise, they may resurface elsewhere (like WOL) or later with some other sob story and we may not remember that they were involved in something else unless we are pissed about being lied to about it!

 

[Casinomeister]

I think it would be a pretty good idea for Mr. Hartley to substantiate and/or otherwise prove up these "allegations". Moreover, it seems very peculiar to me that all of this nefarious conduct was purportedly taking place right under the nose of Mr. Hartley for quite some time, but yet he states in his post of yesterday that he had only started to investigate the issue yesterday.

In short, there are more than a few pieces of this puzzle that are not fitting. Which is nothing short of what I've learned to expect from Ryan Hartley. Kind of like the big print giveth and the little print taketh away.

Jeesus Cipher! What's with the chip on the shoulder?

Ryan came in here stating he was looking into the situation. He did NOT imply that he just found out about it. When I contacted him, they were completing the investigation. This player is a fraudster; nothing alleged about that.

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions here.

 

[hhcfreebie]

Thanks for the info Bryan. I believe that once a scammer comes here and makes a public accusation that turns out to be a flat out lie, they have forfeited any expectation of privacy as to the truth of why they were banned. I think you should post the full story on any of these scumbag scammers without giving them the option of dropping it with no consequences. Otherwise, they may resurface elsewhere (like WOL) or later with some other sob story and we may not remember that they were involved in something else unless we are pissed about being lied to about it!

This guy pretty much spammed all the message board with his one-sided story. I am going to link his post here if casino meister doesn't mind.
People need to know the truth. I hate to see scammers use message boards for their own gain.

 

[thesmacker]

It is obvious that the player using the same neteller account to fund a number of accounts is not the brightest bulb out there for one. Secondly, it is important for Inter and Ryan to come down hard on this type of activity in order to maintain the integrity of online poker. I only hope that the victimized players due to this collusion are rewarded their cheated loses as I beleive the poker room itself should not benefit from the misfortune of the cheated players as the money is not rightfully the poker rooms to keep.

One thing that bothers me though is that Inter did not immediately recognize that the same Neteller accounts were funding multiple accounts. One would think this would be pretty obvious to Inter from the get go before this matter escalated to its current state. Since it has reached this point I only hope that the cheated players rightfully are refunded their losses.
Cheers

 

[dirk_dangerous]

If this guy was colluding at poker than he is a scum sucking cheater and deserves to have his winnings confiscated

However, Intercasino should have told him exactly what he was accused of.

 

[cipher]

Jeesus Cipher! What's with the chip on the shoulder?

Ryan came in here stating he was looking into the situation. He did NOT imply that he just found out about it. When I contacted him, they were completing the investigation. This player is a fraudster; nothing alleged about that.

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions here.

This is your quote from this morning Bryan. The account was locked due to an "alleged" involvement in a ring of colluders.

The only one that seems to be jumping to a lot of conclusions in this entire fiasco is Ryan Hartley, who I assume is perfectly capable of speaking for himself at long last rather than thru intermediaries.

I said what I meant and I meant what I said when it comes to putting any credence at all in anything that Ryan Hartley chooses to alledge. At the very least this $8,200.00 needs to be placed with a source that will insure the players receive the funds in question and not Intercasino or worse yet Ryan Hartley.

 

[jpm]

I'm sure they did Dirk, he is probably playing dumb and trying to make Intercasino look like the cheaters here. Especially since he's now apparently spamming all the boards with his story.

However, Intercasino should have told him exactly what he was accused of.

 

[jpm]

Cipher, I think what Bryan meant was, what do you have against Intercasino & Ryan? I'm curious now too since you sound like they're as bad as the Virtual Group folks. That's definitely not been my experience there. What happened to you?

 

[cipher]

Hi JPM, Good to see you still kicking around these parts. JPM, I can assure you that my issues with Ryan Hartley and Intercasino will be aired in full before long and Mr. Hartley is very well aware of the fact that it's coming down the pipe real soon. Take care of yourself JPM.

 

[jpm]

Oh, ok. I thought it was something in the past that I didn't remember. Well, I look forward to reading that thread!

 

[Clayman]

"most were on the same computer and that they all used the same NETeller accounts."

Wouldn't this be sheer stupidity of gargantuan proportions? Not that I even see how 2 colluders could be playing simultaneously on the same computer.

"This was first brought to our attention by other players on the poker tables"

Lucky for Inter, I guess. Doesn't the software itself have any way of detecting "colluding patterns". Surely whatever it is other players seem to notice could be built-in to the software? I would guess investigating complaints about possible collusion would be a full-time job.

"We have therefore locked the referring affiliate's referred accounts"

Does this allow for the possibility that the affiliate may have referred some players who actually play an honest game but whose accounts would nonetheless have been locked?

And it took a month for Inter to figure this out?

It sort of seems to me they were luckier than a blind squirrel finding some nuts in a forest in the winter in the dark.

Would I be exaggerating in saying it seems colluding could be more the norm than the exception given the unlikllihood of it being detected in a timely manner?

 

[cipher]

Great post Clayman,

There's way too many pieces to this puzzle that just don't fit.

 

[hhcfreebie]

"most were on the same computer and that they all used the same NETeller accounts."

Wouldn't this be sheer stupidity of gargantuan proportions? Not that I even see how 2 colluders could be playing simultaneously on the same computer.

Maybe he used a router. That way both computers share the same IP/ISP and he can play in front of the computers simutaneously.
When I was crazy about MMRPG (Everquest), I saw lots of people playing more than 2 characters at once. I always wonder how they can input so many commands at once, hell they can even talk to each other to conceive his/her identity.
I don't know much about poker. If we know all the "people" sit with me are actually the same person, he just play more hands and the only advantage he has is that he can see more cards. I have no idea how can he beat the others so easily with mutiple accounts.

 

[thetest32]

hhcfreebie - the thing is that with more players that are actually the same person they can force money out of other people.

Say there are three plays, 1, 2 and 3. However, 1 and 2 are infact the same person. What this person can do is keep raising as player 1 and then reraising as 2. Even if 3 has a reasonable hand they may get scared thinking 'at least 2 people have very good hands' and ultimately fold their hands. It doesn't matter whether at the showdown 1 or 2 wins, because they are the same person.

It's kind of like the actual poker tactic where you can 'buy' a pot with nothing just be pretending to have a very good hand - but obviously this becomes very easy to play if you actually are playing more than once - just force the legitamate players out of the game.

 

[hhcfreebie]

Say there are three plays, 1, 2 and 3. However, 1 and 2 are infact the same person. What this person can do is keep raising as player 1 and then reraising as 2. Even if 3 has a reasonable hand they may get scared thinking 'at least 2 people have very good hands' and ultimately fold their hands. It doesn't matter whether at the showdown 1 or 2 wins, because they are the same person.

It's kind of like the actual poker tactic where you can 'buy' a pot with nothing just be pretending to have a very good hand - but obviously this becomes very easy to play if you actually are playing more than once - just force the legitamate players out of the game.

Just a thought.
If I knew they are exactly the same person, I'll not be scared. By playing strictly by the pod odds (maybe bluff once every 20 times), other players might do just as well when they face the cheating "players".
Come to think of it, what will happen if the cheating players do nothing but keep raising and ignore the pot odds completely? Others play by the pot odds will bleed them to death in no time.

 

[Aindreas_Daoc]

"most were on the same computer and that they all used the same NETeller accounts."

Wouldn't this be sheer stupidity of gargantuan proportions? Not that I even see how 2 colluders could be playing simultaneously on the same computer.

Well, Intercasino Poker is a connected to something like 7 other pokerrooms that share the same platform, so it is possible that someone makes an account at Intercasino and at another linked poker room, and then logs into both of them and sits at the same table.

One would assume that there are software detection in place at the main server that will disallow people who funded their account from the same Neteller account and who have the same IP address to sit at the same table eventhough the poker accounts are at different pokerrooms. But apparently there isn't, which while disappointing, is not surprising considering how new (and bad) Cryptologic poker software is.

"This was first brought to our attention by other players on the poker tables"

Lucky for Inter, I guess. Doesn't the software itself have any way of detecting "colluding patterns". Surely whatever it is other players seem to notice could be built-in to the software? I would guess investigating complaints about possible collusion would be a full-time job.

This is also very disappointing, but again not surprising. Reputable poker rooms would certainly have this in place. It would among other things check betting patterns, seating patterns, SD and Win rate data for players, etc. Then, if something out of the ordinary occurs, it would flag the account for review by a human (preferably someone with decent knowledge of poker) to determine what is going on.

But as is evidenced above, they do not even have a the most basic check in place that ensures accounts that are clearly operated by the same person (and it doesn't get more obvious than same Neteller account, and same IP address) from sitting together, so what are the odds of them having advanced protection?

Other poker rooms will immediately place a check on an account that is created using the same funding method and same computer (in the case of husband and wife, for instance) to never be able to sit together in a ring game. Yet this guy, if what is alleged is true, managed to do just that, and cheat people out of 8 grands over a period of several months, until finally some alert players notified them.

This is the most obvious form of collusion, and them letting it go for months borders on criminal neglect. If they can't detect this until a player notifies them, what about more advanced colluders, who actually have seperate Neteller accounts, different computers and different IP addresses? What about more subtle form of colluding that even good and alert players can't catch immediately (would require tons of hand history data to establish abnormal patterns)?

This certainly harms my confidence in Intercasino (or other Cryptologic rooms) to provide a fair game.

 

[cipher]

Aindreas Daoc,

That's one hell of a 4th post. Very thought provoking. Have a good one.

 

[jetset]

That was a thought provoking post alright. Every article on online poker that I have read says that collusion is a major fear and disincentive for players. Poker rooms seem to know it, too so it is understandable that the latter will try to stamp it out wherever it is uncovered before too many players get burned.

Knowing how fast fraudsters are at identifying and exploiting opportunities to rip off both casinos and other players, one can make a confident bet that these crooks are active out there and from all sorts of geographical locations, and if many players (presumably at least some of whom are experienced) were complaining about this guy then there is presumably some foundation to Intercasino's claim, possibly backed up by other information unearthed during an investigation.

Most poker sites seem to claim that they have effective anti-collusion software without disclosing what its capabilities are (for obvious reasons) but I sometimes wonder how effective these measures can be in practice. Has anyone read up on this or have expert opinion on it?

If Intercasino are "redistributing" Interwhateverhisnumberis's confiscated funds among his victims that seems to be the fairest solution to me.

And where is Interwhatever now?

 

[inter1178502]

thank

I think that intercasino's appraisal to me is base.i have only one account and play at home or company.As for what they talked about , I feel strange !

Only won money.Why involve so many things?I am more and more confused.What collusion? affiliate? what group?

I do not want to explain anything now, it becauses seem now intercasino is slandering me . So long as I ask intercasino to announce my game record. Should give out the reason or the evidence .

by the way,thank you for help,casinomeister

 

[Casinomeister]

I think that intercasino's appraisal to me is base.i have only one account and play at home or company.As for what they talked about , I feel strange !

Only won money.Why involve so many things?I am more and more confused.What collusion? affiliate? what group?

I do not want to explain anything now, it becauses seem now intercasino is slandering me . So long as I ask intercasino to announce my game record. Should give out the reason or the evidence .

by the way,thank you for help,casinomeister

Oh my Gawd! Not another casino SCAM!! I am shocked!!

I am sorry you are feeling so strange and that this has confused you. No need to explain anything else, I'm sure most of the members here know what's up. The way that they slandered your good name of inter1178502 is most alarming. I hope you will receive an apology soon....