Im stunned and just in shock over this

[LaurieJim]

Was the information about this poster given to you or to the authorities? Who gave it?

It was given to me and will be given to the authorities at my local police dept.today, not Monday as planned. The police on both ends will handle the matter from there.

It was posted as to where i would get the info in this thread and for that i commend both people, this is a deeply disturbed person and was not a threat to be taken lightly imo.


Laurie

 

[maphesto]

Was the information about this poster given to you or to the authorities? Who gave it?

I know that you want to hear her say that Enzo gave her the info. Right?

I can say that I don't care who gave her the info, he wrote stuff I didn't think was possible.

Go Laurie!

 

[skiny]

I know that you want to hear her say that Enzo gave her the info. Right?

I can say that I don't care who gave her the info, he wrote stuff I didn't think was possible.

Go Laurie!

No. Actually I would have preferred it had been given directly to the authorities regardless of who's giving it.

I fully agree that anyone who has broken the law should be prosecuted to the full extent of it. And that includes internet related crimes, including threats of violence.

I also agree that any privacy agreements we've signed should be upheld unless they impede a criminal investigation.

The question becomes who should our personal information be given to and under what circumstances? Should it be given directly to law officials conducting the investigation where it will likely remain safe or to other members of a forum or casino? If you agree with the latter then the question becomes how to decide who gets who's personal information and under what circumstances?

It's a can of worms to say the least. A precedent being set with no line drawn. Now who is to say somewhere down the road the wrong information isn't given to the wrong person? X person threatens Y person. Y person gets X person's information. Z person finds out and deals with it him or herself. No police required.

If any casino or forum is going to give anyone's personal information to anyone under any circumstances those circumstances should be laid out quite plainly in the privacy agreement we sign.

Now I'm not saying Laurie doesn't have a case or Laurie shouldn't feel suitably insulted, degraded, threatened, scared or angry. I'm not saying that the proper authorities shouldn't be dealing with this case accordingly. I'm only asking who gave someone's personal information to another member or client.

I think it's a fair question.

 

[LaurieJim]

Just got back with a case number in hand, Mr.G. might rethink ever posting threats to anyone again in the future.


Laurie

P.S There is a criminal investigation underway.

 

[jas2587]

No. Actually I would have preferred it had been given directly to the authorities regardless of who's giving it.

I fully agree that anyone who has broken the law should be prosecuted to the full extent of it. And that includes internet related crimes, including threats of violence.

I also agree that any privacy agreements we've signed should be upheld unless they impede a criminal investigation.

The question becomes who should our personal information be given to and under what circumstances? Should it be given directly to law officials conducting the investigation where it will likely remain safe or to other members of a forum or casino? If you agree with the latter then the question becomes how to decide who gets who's personal information and under what circumstances?

It's a can of worms to say the least. A precedent being set with no line drawn. Now who is to say somewhere down the road the wrong information isn't given to the wrong person? X person threatens Y person. Y person gets X person's information. Z person finds out and deals with it him or herself. No police required.

If any casino or forum is going to give anyone's personal information to anyone under any circumstances those circumstances should be laid out quite plainly in the privacy agreement we sign.

Now I'm not saying Laurie doesn't have a case or Laurie shouldn't feel suitably insulted, degraded, threatened, scared or angry. I'm not saying that the proper authorities shouldn't be dealing with this case accordingly. I'm only asking who gave someone's personal information to another member or client.

I think it's a fair question.

would you be asking or caring for that matter if it was your wife mother or daughter etc?

Would you be asking if you didnt have such a grudge against 3Dice?

The main thing is yall need to put yourselves in LJ's postion then think how you would react I dont think some of you would be so calm

I dont care where she got it the idiot signed up thru our site did you ever think we got the info from our own site

the sybyl has clearly shone that they are not the smartest cookie outta the box to threaten then come an join our forum idiot

Good Luck LJ

GoWildCindy

 

[chayton]

Actually I can see skiny's point. If someone threatened me, and someone in the Bryan or Enzo's position gave me that person's info, what's to keep me from going over to the guy's house and burning it down. Or signing him up for a bunch of spam or putting a hit on out him or giving his personal info to everyone I talked to. Or if it was the other way around and I made a comment and someone decided to get MY personal info and make my life hell....

I don't know much about the legal aspects of this whole thing, but from what I understand, a privacy policy is only in effect UNTIL you break the law. A person or organization can't give out personal information unless it's required by law. Now (in Canada at least) Gamblerx broke the law by posting the 6 feet under comment toward Bryan - but Bryan or Enzo weren't required by law to give his info to Laurie. That's the sticky point.

In hindsight it might have been wiser for Laurie to make the complaint, and then have the police ask Bryan and/or Enzo for the person's real info. But on the other hand, the 'death' threat was made toward Bryan...but in that case it should have been Bryan making the complaint.

...now I'm getting all mixed up....

Anyhow Laurie, please keep us posted on further developments.

 

[chayton]

the sybyl has clearly shone that they are not the smartest cookie outta the box to threaten then come an join our forum idiot

did he really? Sheesh!!!

 

[skiny]

Now here's an interesting question.

would you be asking or caring for that matter if it was your wife mother or daughter etc?

Remember person X, person Y and person Z?

You see, not all of us are qualified to be judges and juries which means we probably shouldn't be taking it upon ourselves to be executioners. And yes, sometimes I might feel that it's completely justified. Other times you might feel it's completely justified. It's the grey area where the trouble lies. Once it becomes ok in some cases to ignore the privacy agreements we then have to decide when it's ok and when it's not. Now the members have become the juries and the owners become the judges and lord knows who the executioners may be.

Would you be asking if you didnt have such a grudge against 3Dice?

If it was a simple grudge against a casino operator, what I was saying would be a whole lot more sarcastic and a whole lot less logical. Besides, I still have no idea who gave what information to who.

The main thing is yall need to put yourselves in LJ's postion then think how you would react I dont think some of you would be so calm

Not being calm is the problem. Yes, Laurie should be mad as hell. Her family and friends should be equally angry. The people who manage our personal information should be doing so rationally and not passing it around just because they're pissed off.

I dont care where she got it the idiot signed up thru our site did you ever think we got the info from our own site

I didn't try to guess where the information came from. I asked.

If anyone wants to hand my personal information over to any law inforcement agency they can be my guest. I would really not like it much if it was handed over to another player or forum member.

 

[jelsmith]

Now here's an interesting question.



Remember person X, person Y and person Z?

You see, not all of us are qualified to be judges and juries which means we probably shouldn't be taking it upon ourselves to be executioners. And yes, sometimes I might feel that it's completely justified. Other times you might feel it's completely justified. It's the grey area where the trouble lies. Once it becomes ok in some cases to ignore the privacy agreements we then have to decide when it's ok and when it's not. Now the members have become the juries and the owners become the judges and lord knows who the executioners may be.



If it was a simple grudge against a casino operator, what I was saying would be a whole lot more sarcastic and a whole lot less logical. Besides, I still have no idea who gave what information to who.


Not being calm is the problem. Yes, Laurie should be mad as hell. Her family and friends should be equally angry. The people who manage our personal information should be doing so rationally and not passing it around just because they're pissed off.



I didn't try to guess where the information came from. I asked.

If anyone wants to hand my personal information over to any law inforcement agency they can be my guest. I would really not like it much if it was handed over to another player or forum member.

You bet your sweet ass

 

[skiny]

You bet your sweet ass

Jelly wants my personal information!

 

[jetset]

Go for it Laurie!

Skiny's academic discussion of the privacy issue raises some truly valid points, but this sort of situation will always trigger emotional as well as intellectual reactions, much the same as when one can become outraged on hearing that a criminal has escaped consequences due to some legal technicality/smart lawyer - you know the judicial system is an essential pillar of society, but you really wanted to see that bastard pay the penalty for his criminal act!<grin>.

 

[Jasminebed]

I pride myself on being pragmatic.

I thought that 3Dice should not give the info to Laurie... not saying they did, they just offered.

Skiny, Chayon and I all live in Canada. Stuff like this is taken seriously, and the authorities are mostly willing to investigate.

But police have a lot of things on their plate. And if they asked Laurie to obtain real information about this person, and she had a source to ask it from (maybe more than one), then that would be compliance with a legal investigation, or at least arguable in a court of law. (JMO, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV)

Laurie, I am very proud of you for standing up to this (a word that might get me a CM vacation).

skinyActually I would have preferred it had been given directly to the authorities regardless of who's giving it.

I would have preferred it too, but it might be possible that the police budget did not allow overseas calls, and if Lauriejim cooperated with what the police asked of her, that's cool.

If the guy gets beat up, she and her family are the first ones they are looking at.

 

[skiny]

Identity theft and fraud are rampant on the internet. The world wide web is a seething cesspool of crime and corruption with a few places where you can download free wallpapers. Every second website you visit is trying to track you or trying to put viruses or trojans on your hard drive. Compared to the amount of places a person can visit on the internet, the amount of truly trustworthy sites are minuscule. How many websites would you actually give your home address to? The only protection we have are these privacy agreements. Once they become open to interpretation, once it becomes accepted for the webmasters or casino operators to decide when to uphold the agreements and when it's not then we can no longer trust them either.

I guarantee you any Canadian police officer would place a phone call pretty much anywhere if they thought they could solve a crime. If they were told "My life was threatened. I know several places where the person has accounts and those people are willing to give you his information. They can't give it to me because of privacy agreement but they can give it to law officials during an investigation." The call would be placed.

In Canada and the US we have rules to follow. Rules such as "Innocent until proven guilty." That means proven guilty in a court of law. Not proven guilty on a website. And I'm not talking about this specific case. I'm talking about all cases. The agreements are put in place for our protection. To allow owners and operators to arbitrarily break the agreement means none of us are protected. The agreement does not state. "We will not give your information to anyone unless we feel you're a big enough asshole." If that was the agreement I signed then my information wouldn't be safe anywhere.

 

[anniemac]

Unless you have been the recipient of a stalker (that's what I am going to call this person) you don't know what LJ is going thru. I have been. So I don't care where LJ got her info or who sent it to her.

There is a point when your personal information is no longer private and to me that point was reached. I feel that Enzo and CM had a moral obligation to supply whatever info needed to protect LJ.

If you think that your private info is private, think again. Spammers/hackers etc can get your private information from a myriad of places. Or check out Intellius, for a small fee you can even get directions to someone's house. Or for free, you can do a Google map search and even see their house.

We like to live in a bubble and assume that we are safe and our private stuff is private. Not anymore. We just hope and pray that it is.

 

[skiny]

Unless you have been the recipient of a stalker (that's what I am going to call this person) you don't know what LJ is going thru. I have been. So I don't care where LJ got her info or who sent it to her.

There is a point when your personal information is no longer private and to me that point was reached. I feel that Enzo and CM had a moral obligation to supply whatever info needed to protect LJ.

If you think that your private info is private, think again. Spammers/hackers etc can get your private information from a myriad of places. Or check out Intellius, for a small fee you can even get directions to someone's house. Or for free, you can do a Google map search and even see their house.

We like to live in a bubble and assume that we are safe and our private stuff is private. Not anymore. We just hope and pray that it is.

Spammers and hackers getting into my private information is illegal. Breaking a contract or agreement is also illegal. I said more than once and I will not change it. There should be no circumstances that an agreement I sign should be broken just because someone feels like it should. If law officials wants to find the identity of a person the agreement I sign should state that law officials can obtain this information during an investigation. At NO time should any casino or forum hand personal information about one player or member to another player or member. It's just something we cannot allow. I'm not saying that Laurie shouldn't pursue this case. I'm not saying the person isn't dog meat. But we have laws and rules in place for a reason and to arbitrarily break them is basically rendering them useless.

Putting that aside, do you have any idea how many cases are lost in court because someone illegally obtained information? Has anyone taken into account that even if someone does get a fine or prison sentence he can then sue whoever divulged his information for breach of contract? I can't understand how anyone can just take this as a case of "I'm mad which means I can do whatever I please." It doesn't matter how furious we get. We can't just do whatever we please. There's a name for that. It's called anarchy.

 

[anniemac]

Then Skiny, I guess you and I will agree to disagree. I respect your point of view but don't agree with it as is my right.

 

[oldtrvlagt]

As much as I would like to see this person strung up...Skiny has a point. What I might be leary of is this scumbag obtaining a lawyer and claiming his rights have been violated and the whole thing gets thrown out due to a "technicality".

Hopefully this will not happen and he will get what he deserves!

 

[bb28]

My 2 cents worth.
I understand Laurie being outraged and scared, she has every right to feel that way and she has every right to do what ever it is she feels like is the best thing to do. This nutcase does need to be dealt with. However.......IF, the information was given to her by Enzo or CM, that is a violation of privacy, IMO. I would think the whole thing should have been taken care of by having law enforcement get the info from Enzo or CM, I would assume that would be the proper legal channel.

 

[LaurieJim]

My 2 cents worth.
I understand Laurie being outraged and scared, she has every right to feel that way and she has every right to do what ever it is she feels like is the best thing to do. This nutcase does need to be dealt with. However.......IF, the information was given to her by Enzo or CM, that is a violation of privacy, IMO. I would think the whole thing should have been taken care of by having law enforcement get the info from Enzo or CM, I would assume that would be the proper legal channel.

I brought in the info that "they" said was needed before they could proceed with a sworn complaint and lodge a formal investigation.
They have CM's and Enzo's business emails to obtain any futher valid info that they should require.

Laurie

 

[skiny]

It would be interesting to find out what complaints could be lodged against an alias. If such a complaint was lodged to an internet crimes unit would it be their job to find the identity? I'm sure they do it daily with internet sex crimes.

For example if you get an email or a private message and have a saved copy of such message threatening your life, could you lodge the complaint against "the person known as 'hillbillybob' at whatever.com?" Personally I think all law officials should be allowed to obtain personal information about anyone if it is required for a criminal investigation.

 

[Pinababy69]

Anyone by any chance, remember the email that TonyT sent to Lock support staff a couple weeks ago? And how almost everyone on the forum was up in arms, because the casino gave Bryan a heads up about that email, and that Bryan subsequently posted the "gist" of the email on the forum, with colourful language included. And that language was almost word for word, with what Laurie received, ie. the "C" bomb, and reference to his dick.

AussieDave left the forum, as he felt that Bryan and/or Lock had crossed the line by exchanging personal info. People went on about it for days, to the point where Bryan felt the need to apologize for posting the info. Yet, in that case..he posted no private info, other than the general tone of the email, and some of the words. In this case (which is almost identical), we have a casino manager handing over name, address...and who knows what else, to a poster on a forum/private citizen. Yet "almost" everyone supports this, while two weeks ago, they thought it was a serious breach of privacy.

Call me nuts..but what's wrong with this picture? And I don't have a bone to pick with 3Dice, so that has nothing to do with it. I'd just like someone to explain why two weeks ago, it wasn't okay. Today, it is okay.

 

[Mavin1]

Laurie, I really do understand what you are going through right now and you are in my prayers that all goes well and this never happens again.
On another note, I agree with Skiny and Pina on the subject dealing with privacy.
If it becomes okay to do it through the public in one instance, then soon it will be okay for another and another, until we all will wonder just how private our contracts with casinos and such really are.
It is not to say that you shouldn't do what you feel is right, but, it should not have to be up to you to have to pursue this matter in the first place.
There should be some kind of terms with casinos and forums that any member that threatens an establishment, employee or another member will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
The casinos and forums and where ever else should have a system in place to deal with these issues directly with the authorities, so the injured party is not left out in the open dealing with it themselves.
If such incidents were handled this way then the accused could not come back and further harrass or threaten the injured individual, because they wouldn't know for sure who was the one to press the charges.
This gives you the injured party a certain amount of protection and anonimity from the perp.
So something needs to be changed, in the rules and regulations to protect the individuals and these matters should be kept on a private level so as not to draw more negative attention to the injured party/party's.

I did have that one person that was going on about roulette at one time email me through cm, with a pretty darned threatening email as to killing me if I ever f'n told anyone, I simply forwared it to Bryan and never heard no more about it, nor received such an email again.

So don't take any offense, or feel we are siding against your actions, at other points of view on matters such as this, we all feel deeply for you and only want to be assured that things will be handled correctly.

 

[bb28]

In response to Pinababy's question. "I'd just like someone to explain why two weeks ago, it wasn't okay. Today, it is okay." I don't think that I spoke out on the other thread at all, just had more RL stuff going on that week, but I did read it and I didn't think it was OK then either. Private info held by a website, casino, ect, such as name, address, email or other identifying information should NOT be released to anyone other than law enforcement. Just my 2 cents.

 

[bb28]

I brought in the info that "they" said was needed before they could proceed with a sworn complaint and lodge a formal investigation.
They have CM's and Enzo's business emails to obtain any futher valid info that they should require.

Laurie

Laurie, please don't in any way take what I've said as a personal criticism of you or how you've handled it. My criticism is aimed somewhere else, assuming that is how it happened. Now if.......this person was idiotic enough to post on YOUR forum with his personal identity, that's a total different animal and you have every right to give this info to the authorities.

 

[rockycatt]

actually most of us posting here are really onlooker's were we haven't recieved a life threatening e mail with in 2010, witch is considered a mainstream mode of communication
so i think there's really 4 players here
1=the slug that sent the threat
2laurie =a victim of the threat
3=brian another victim of a death threat
4= enzo a good Samaritan witch knows the behavior pattern of this sick individual and also has had dealings with him/her

so it's a bit far from a casino turning belly up side to the flat foot's about his business

all the above are/have been it difficult spots with this individual

that being said it could easily be a corvette forum,and a chevrolet
dealer

 

[kakata]

okay.
@Laurie.

First of all I wouldnt have put this story on the forum.

This is a forum....not YOUR FAMILY.(Ive already told you)
no offence intended to anyone.

Id informed CM and Enzo(private messages)and asked if they could help.

Id then gone to police...expose the facts tell em I had sources to track the offender and asked em what were my options.

 

[LaurieJim]

Anyone by any chance, remember the email that TonyT sent to Lock support staff a couple weeks ago? And how almost everyone on the forum was up in arms, because the casino gave Bryan a heads up about that email, and that Bryan subsequently posted the "gist" of the email on the forum, with colourful language included. And that language was almost word for word, with what Laurie received, ie. the "C" bomb, and reference to his dick.

AussieDave left the forum, as he felt that Bryan and/or Lock had crossed the line by exchanging personal info. People went on about it for days, to the point where Bryan felt the need to apologize for posting the info. Yet, in that case..he posted no private info, other than the general tone of the email, and some of the words. In this case (which is almost identical), we have a casino manager handing over name, address...and who knows what else, to a poster on a forum/private citizen. Yet "almost" everyone supports this, while two weeks ago, they thought it was a serious breach of privacy.

Call me nuts..but what's wrong with this picture? And I don't have a bone to pick with 3Dice, so that has nothing to do with it. I'd just like someone to explain why two weeks ago, it wasn't okay. Today, it is okay.

People should not do this to anyone whether it is at a local level or cyberspace.

That rep that Tony said those vile things to has feelings and was prolly in fear as well, so its ok to make these threats like a coward behind a keyboard to anyone, another player, another poster or a casino rep just doing their job, trying to make a living to feed their family?

Would it have been better for you Pina had the dude found me and shoved his dick down my throat, like he wrote? Are you saying thats ok for someone to post those things to another human and not be held accountable and someone with valid info shouldnt let that person know, so they can protect themselves by going to the authorities?

Jeeze Pina, you have a child, you prolly have other female family members, do you value some sico's name and address more than another human's well being and safety.

BTW Tony did have the balls to say he was sorry, he never threatened to put CM 6 feet under either, a clear death threat imho.


Laurie

 

[Pinababy69]

Just wanted to clarify so that no one misunderstands me.....especially you Laurie. In NO way do I condone what this guy (or TonyT) did, and I don't believe that either should be allowed to get away with it. The only thing I was questioning was the two very different attitudes, towards two very similar situations...that's all.

And I 100% agree with Kakata's post in re: the handling of the whole thing. Laurie, you of all people should realize that I DO know exactly how you feel, in regards to what was said to you. If you remember the pages upon pages of similar things that were directed towards me in the POC, which you had to delete. That person is no longer with us on the forum, but you know I understand how pissed that email must have made you.

 

[Pinababy69]

Forget it...hope we're kosher now as to the intent of my original post.

 

[RedAndi]

Here is a good litmus test-

Did anyone here for a second wish 3dice didn't have there personal info after reading this? (I did).

Anyone here wonder what would happen if you pissed off someone on the forum who had access or could obtain access to your personal info? (I did).

Anyone here think twice about posting an opinion about this in the thread? (I did).


It's all hypothetical because I am not someone who is going to attack anyone in public or private via a forum. I may give someone some shit once in a while but I am grown up enough not to go totally ballistic.
Understand where LJ is coming from, and also understand the privacy issues.
I think the nature of this forum changes the dynamic too, not many forums where so many people (Casino reps) have your very personal information.

 

[skiny]

People should not do this to anyone whether it is at a local level or cyberspace.

That rep that Tony said those vile things to has feelings and was prolly in fear as well, so its ok to make these threats like a coward behind a keyboard to anyone, another player, another poster or a casino rep just doing their job, trying to make a living to feed their family?

Would it have been better for you Pina had the dude found me and shoved his dick down my throat, like he wrote? Are you saying thats ok for someone to post those things to another human and not be held accountable and someone with valid info shouldnt let that person know, so they can protect themselves by going to the authorities?

Jeeze Pina, you have a child, you prolly have other female family members, do you value some sico's name and address more than another human's well being and safety.

BTW Tony did have the balls to say he was sorry, he never threatened to put CM 6 feet under either, a clear death threat imho.


Laurie

I honestly think we can stop discussing whether or not we all agree this person should be found and prosecuted. If someone breaks the law in any case I think we can all agree the person should have to answer for it. It's why we enact laws in the first place. I think the real question is who is allowed to break other laws or renege on agreements to catch the first law breaker.

The privacy agreements we sign are no different from the terms and conditions. We're all up in arms if any casino doesn't follow those to the letter and have spent years trying to get casinos to remove any vague terms so that NOTHING is left open to interpretation. Yet some people still seem to be under the impression that the privacy statements are agreements of convenience. That certain circumstances allow for a complete disregard of the agreements we signed and that information should actually be passed on from member to member or player to player. It's something we simply cannot allow. It's a slippery slope that can only lead to our personal information not being safe regardless of what we sign.

I, personally have to believe that when I'm giving out my name, telephone number, home address, credit card numbers, driver's license and so on and so on that under no circumstances would this information be passed to anyone other than some law enforcement agency. If the FBI or the RCMP wants my driver's license number bad enough they'll get it anyway. If Joe Blow who misinterpreted my sarcasm for a death threat wants it he'd bloody well better not be getting it because there will be hell to pay and I don't mean the fluffy fun kind.

On another fun note... I wonder how much a person could sue a casino for for breach of contract.

 

[Jasminebed]

I don't know who LJ got her info from. I've signed up at more than one forum that had no privacy agreement.

If Can't Get It Right et. al. want to sue for a breach of a privacy agreement, they are free to do so.

What I would hate to see happen would be a prosecution falter over illegally obtained information.

It is not necessary to obtain a conviction to obtain a restraining order in most jurisdictions.

Sometimes moral behaviour and legal behaviour conflict.

What happened in the past is 100 percent certain. It matters a lot what happens in the future.

This user issued death threats against CM. Maybe Interpol should be contacted?

 

[skiny]

There still seems to be some confusion over what the problem is here. I'm going to completely set Laurie's situation aside although this seems to be a difficult thing for some people to do and paint you a little picture of what could happen next week, month, year?

A brand new punk kid comes along who has a big mouth online. They're everywhere, you know? Go to any yahoo chat room. I've had a thousand death threats in Yahoo chat rooms in the last 15 years or so. So now one shows up at a casino forum. Not necessarily this one. Just any casino forum. He doesn't like my lovable biting wit and charm as some people might and gets offended. Next thing I know he says he'll come to my house and burn it down. OMG! Now I'm scared. The only problem is that I'm not really the lovable guy a lot of people might think I am. I just happened to be completely insane. There are some people even in this forum who might attest to that.

Lets say I pretend to call the cops. (Keep in mind this is a completely new case and has nothing to do with the last one.) Now I call up the forum owner or some casino he might play at on the phone and because I'm such a wonderful actor and more than slightly insane I put up a front of being terrified and the only way we can catch this guy is for ME to hand his information over to the police. The police won't talk to anyone but me. They say I need his information to put in the complaint. Please feel for me. I want to feel safe. Then I'm given his name and home address. Finally I can feel safe. Now I take a little trip down to his house. Watch him and his family for a while. Maybe he has kids, maybe he has brothers and sisters. I bet if I meet one of those children at school.... No wait. He said he was going to burn my house down. Tit for tat, I always say. I'll burn his down. With his family in it. Before you know it I've murdered a couple of adults and a few small children. But what the hell? He did think he could get away with threatening me online.

Now can anyone here see why you might not want YOUR personal information given out to some nutbar online because of something you might have said in an angry moment when you were typing bullshit to incite a response?

Yes we have laws against electronic threats. Yes people who issue these threats should be prosecuted. There is also a reason the police doesn't hand a perpetrator's personal information over to a victim. There is a reason we are NOT guilty until proven so in a court of law.

I will never understand why people think it is ok under ANY circumstances for a player or member to have access to another player or member's personal information without that person's consent. It's totally beyond me.

 

[mecan49]

Sorry LJ about ur troubles. I say prosecute to the fulliest extent of the law!In my state it is considered a terrroristic(msp) threat...which is a felony!
Just curious about one thing, why was he po'd at u? just curious? I thought maybe I missed something here...LOL been off track for a few.

 

[dominique]

Anyone by any chance, remember the email that TonyT sent to Lock support staff a couple weeks ago? And how almost everyone on the forum was up in arms, because the casino gave Bryan a heads up about that email, and that Bryan subsequently posted the "gist" of the email on the forum, with colourful language included. And that language was almost word for word, with what Laurie received, ie. the "C" bomb, and reference to his dick.

AussieDave left the forum, as he felt that Bryan and/or Lock had crossed the line by exchanging personal info. People went on about it for days, to the point where Bryan felt the need to apologize for posting the info. Yet, in that case..he posted no private info, other than the general tone of the email, and some of the words. In this case (which is almost identical), we have a casino manager handing over name, address...and who knows what else, to a poster on a forum/private citizen. Yet "almost" everyone supports this, while two weeks ago, they thought it was a serious breach of privacy.

Call me nuts..but what's wrong with this picture? And I don't have a bone to pick with 3Dice, so that has nothing to do with it. I'd just like someone to explain why two weeks ago, it wasn't okay. Today, it is okay.

What is the alternative? Subpoena Enzo and Bryan across international borders to give up the information to the law?

You know how much money and time this would cost?

The fact is that a criminal act has been comitted, and if no one does anything about it, you and I will be the next victims.

We do need to rid at the very least our own community of people who issue threats - how do you know they don't plan to follow up? What's to keep the guy from travelling to the current conference and take Bryan out? How would you feel then?

 

[rockycatt]

what the powers to be need is a cyberspace police station as a option to
keep preliminary investigations and such under cover of anonymity
kinda like a secrete grand jury investagation to see who,what and were
the offence is and deal with it from there

thats of course if human's are capable of such a thing [dont want the return of the witch hunt days ]

Ps of course diferent laws across the globe so prolly only in a perfect world/ but then again if you creat a charge back then your rated out across the board

 

[vinylweatherman]

What is the alternative? Subpoena Enzo and Bryan across international borders to give up the information to the law?

You know how much money and time this would cost?
The fact is that a criminal act has been committed, and if no one does anything about it, you and I will be the next victims.

We do need to rid at the very least our own community of people who issue threats - how do you know they don't plan to follow up? What's to keep the guy from travelling to the current conference and take Bryan out? How would you feel then?

Yes, this may be costly, but it is technically CORRECT. The police should NOT have lead the victim to believe it was THEIR responsibility to get hold of the personal information where to do so would lead to the source breaching privacy laws.

The police should have been provided with the source of the information, but THEY should have then made a FORMAL request for it, and for it to be provided to THEM. This would have fully complied with privacy laws, and the agreement players signed. Lawyers are handsomely paid to weed out even the tiniest flaw in a prosecution's case, since it IS INDEED "Innocent until proven guilty". Where information has been obtained illegally, it is often deemed "inadmissible in court", and if the personal information itself is so treated, the case fails completely. This would allow the miscreant to "get off on a technicality", and would be an even WORSE outcome for the victim than had there been no complaint made - it would send the OPPOSITE message to that intended.

 

[skiny]

What is the alternative? Subpoena Enzo and Bryan across international borders to give up the information to the law?

Not necessary. Nobody is withholding the information.

You know how much money and time this would cost?

The price of a phone call.

The fact is that a criminal act has been comitted, and if no one does anything about it, you and I will be the next victims.

If anyone's personal information has been made public after signing a privacy agreement we have now created two victims. Yes, believe it or not, in the eyes of the law, regardless of how despicable you are, you can still become a victim.

We do need to rid at the very least our own community of people who issue threats - how do you know they don't plan to follow up? What's to keep the guy from travelling to the current conference and take Bryan out? How would you feel then?

Yes, we do. But handing out our personal information to other members would be counter-productive. We now live with the knowledge that it is entirely up to the casino and forum operator's discretion as to who gets to see our personal information. Every slippery slope has a top and we're sitting on it. If we're not adequately appalled and angry that this could happen we're just giving ourselves that little push and down we go.

It would be interesting to see how some forum operators and mods or casino owners/operators feel about this situation.

 

[chayton]

I brought in the info that "they" said was needed before they could proceed with a sworn complaint and lodge a formal investigation.
They have CM's and Enzo's business emails to obtain any futher valid info that they should require.

Laurie

Laurie posted this a few pages back in the thread. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the THEY she's referring to is the police. So what I'm seeing is that she went to the police, the police said that she needed certain information to proceed - so any information that she got was what the law required her to have before being able to start an investigation. Without it, she could do nothing.

So she got that required info, (which may be no more than a name and possibly a general location) and that any other 'privileged' info they (the police) needed they could get from Enzo or Bryan.

 

[dominique]

The price of a phone call.

In your dreams. They don't make international phone calls to citizens of other countries to solicit information covered by privacy laws. Never happen.

It will involve a lawyer filing to have the information delivered, the police filing a report, a judge ordering the info be retrieved, the corresponding foreign police station being contacted and replying, with translators in between since everyone will write in their own language for legal reasons.

After some back and forth a subpoena will be issued and sent to the foreign police stations, and they will pay Enzo and Bryan a visit and present legal papers and advise them of their rights.

Lol, that would be great, if the cops would just call and ask. But that's not how the legal system works.

 

[skiny]

In your dreams. They don't make international phone calls to citizens of other countries to solicit information covered by privacy laws. Never happen.

That would be true if the agreement said that no information would be given to anyone. Now if the agreement says that law enforcement agencies would be privy to the information in the event that it was required for an investigation then all it would take is a phone call. And I don't know where you live but here in Canada the police are allowed to place calls outside of Canada.

Also I have a hard time believing that if I called the police and said "I can't have the information because of a privacy agreement but YOU can get it if you're conducting an investigation." The police would just toss their hands up and say "Sorry. You get it or there's no investigation."

There are investigations into internet scams, sex crimes and cyber-stalking every single day. There are crime units dedicated to it. I seriously doubt that every victim of internet related crimes is expected to hand over the identity of the perpetrator or the investigation is tossed out.

 

[lots0]

Skiny obviously you don't have much experience with US police... (not a bad thing believe me)

You called most cops I know (got some in the family) and told them that, they would laugh in your face, tell you to call the Prosecutors office and hang up on you.

Maybe in Canada you got nice polite police men, but in the US, it's a bit different, unless you got money, connections or a TV/Video camera, that is.

 

[skiny]

Skiny obviously you don't have much experience with US police... (not a bad thing believe me)

You called most cops I know (got some in the family) and told them that, they would laugh in your face, tell you to call the Prosecutors office and hang up on you.

Maybe in Canada you got nice polite police men, but in the US, it's a bit different, unless you got money, connections or a TV/Video camera, that is.

The internet related crimes unit would laugh in your face? Pick a state. I'll email the nearest one and we'll see if they think these things are humorous.

 

[dominique]

It's not that they think it's funny, they have to adhere to procedure or the case gets thrown out.

Perps used to go free all the time because procedure wasn't followed. So now police follows regulations to the letter.

 

[LHofsdal]

I know here in NY you can say, write anything you want to anyone as long as you don't touch the person there isn't much you can do. I learned this the hard way. Here is the story....

My daughter was 4 at the time this started. I was getting calls from a creep who found me at work. He started making obscene phone calls like 20 or more a day. 1 day my hubby and daughter came to see me for lunch, then the calls started to threaten my daughter. I got my first call that day 3 minutes after my hubby and daughter arrived. The threat being this jerk was telling me how much he would like to RAPE her. I called the police within seconds of hearing this jerk. This is exactly what I was told by the State Trooper, " As long as he does not touch her, there is not much we can do." These calls went on for months. I stopped taking calls at work unless it was from my husband. After the jerk couldn't get through to me he called one day and asked for me, when my employee told him that I would call him back could she take a message he replied "Tell her it is her husband I really need to talk to her". I got on the phone and it was this jerk.

After 2 years of dealing with this crap we finally got a restraining order, after I HAD TO PAY OUT OF MY OWN POCKET to find out information on this guy. I found out that he had a criminal record that was longer than I am, and that he had spent time in federal prision for a violent crime that involved gangs. The last conviction on this sheet was that he was convicted of doing this 2 years earlier to a woman who owned an inhome daycare. After my lawyer found a loop hole in the law we finally had him convicted for Stalking (because his cell phone records and the stores video tapes times matched, so we proved he was calling from outside the store and was watching me) and you know what this jerk got as a sentence..... 3 years probation and a 1,000 dollar fine, why because he never touched her. We still live looking over our shoulder. We went days without seeing our only child because we put her in hiding, I was scared to death. When we did see her it was in private, I wouldn't be seen in public with her. We even sold our house that we had built 6 years earlier and moved to another county, that is how afraid we were. Now mind you I have his phone records and on 2/18/2005 he called me 68 times in a 3 hour period. These calls to me were a definite threat to my daughter but the law sees it differently.

Dealing with the local police isn't as easy going as you think. There is only so much they can do. Good luck Laurie, I know exactly what your going through!! I wish you the best and I hope the laws where you are, are better then the laws here in NY. Please keep us posted.

LH

 

[lots0]

Blame this deleted post on my stupid laptop keyboard.

 

[skiny]

It's not that they think it's funny, they have to adhere to procedure or the case gets thrown out.

Perps used to go free all the time because procedure wasn't followed. So now police follows regulations to the letter.

And the regulations say that a casino or forum operator are not allowed to talk to them? That makes no sense. If I own a forum or casino and someone was threatening a member I would just pick up the phone, dial their local police and say "I know who the person is you're looking for. I have proof."

How hard is it to say "xxx lodged a complaint against a threatening stalker but I can't give this person's information out because I'm bound by a privacy agreement. I can however give it to you because that agreement provides that I do not impede a criminal investigation?"

It is NOT necessary to give any player or member's information to another player or member. No matter how you justify it, it is just not necessary.


"Hello? I'm looking for Sgt. YYY.... XXX asked me to call and give information about his/her case."

Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[lots0]

The internet related crimes unit would laugh in your face? Pick a state. I'll email the nearest one and we'll see if they think these things are humorous.

Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming... etc.

Not trying to make you angry or be argumentive... I just know about this stuff and from what you have written, it appears you don't.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the the word 'laugh' it will be more like a quiet snicker and a very condescending tone.. But the meaning is the same. Of course you won't get that in an email, I'll be surprised if any US police agency responds to a email from a Foreign National (even a Canadian), with anything other than telling you to contact your own police or government.

 

[skiny]

I know here in NY you can say, write anything you want to anyone as long as you don't touch the person there isn't much you can do. I learned this the hard way. Here is the story....

My daughter was 4 at the time this started. I was getting calls from a creep who found me at work. He started making obscene phone calls like 20 or more a day. 1 day my hubby and daughter came to see me for lunch, then the calls started to threaten my daughter. I got my first call that day 3 minutes after my hubby and daughter arrived. The threat being this jerk was telling me how much he would like to RAPE her. I called the police within seconds of hearing this jerk. This is exactly what I was told by the State Trooper, " As long as he does not touch her, there is not much we can do." These calls went on for months. I stopped taking calls at work unless it was from my husband. After the jerk couldn't get through to me he called one day and asked for me, when my employee told him that I would call him back could she take a message he replied "Tell her it is her husband I really need to talk to her". I got on the phone and it was this jerk.

After 2 years of dealing with this crap we finally got a restraining order, after I HAD TO PAY OUT OF MY OWN POCKET to find out information on this guy. I found out that he had a criminal record that was longer than I am, and that he had spent time in federal prision for a violent crime that involved gangs. The last conviction on this sheet was that he was convicted of doing this 2 years earlier to a woman who owned an inhome daycare. After my lawyer found a loop hole in the law we finally had him convicted for Stalking (because his cell phone records and the stores video tapes times matched, so we proved he was calling from outside the store and was watching me) and you know what this jerk got as a sentence..... 3 years probation and a 1,000 dollar fine, why because he never touched her. We still live looking over our shoulder. We went days without seeing our only child because we put her in hiding, I was scared to death. When we did see her it was in private, I wouldn't be seen in public with her. We even sold our house that we had built 6 years earlier and moved to another county, that is how afraid we were. Now mind you I have his phone records and on 2/18/2005 he called me 68 times in a 3 hour period. These calls to me were a definite threat to my daughter but the law sees it differently.

Dealing with the local police isn't as easy going as you think. There is only so much they can do. Good luck Laurie, I know exactly what your going through!! I wish you the best and I hope the laws where you are, are better then the laws here in NY. Please keep us posted.

LH

That's truly a sad story and I'm sorry for your troubles. If that happened to me I would be horrified to think that someone online might give some other person with a grudge against me my personal information. How easy would it be for that to start all over with some new nut case?

 

[chayton]

@LHofsdal what a terrible story. It makes me want to find the guy and do a Charles Bronson on him. I find it really incredible - and disturbing - that a threat against your child wasn't taken more seriously.