I'm screwed. The dream is dead.

[jstrike]

I had a dream. The dream was to build my own casino, alone, from scratch, and make it the best in the world. Starting in my garage. Something no one had ever done before. To make something that people would go "wow" at. Something that showed off what I could do with my own sweat and hard work. I kept building it, compulsively, like an addict, for three years, no matter how crazy anyone said it was.

The dream's dead.

I wanted to do it really right. No US players. Total transparency on everything from card shoes to roulette spins. Verifying ID before the first deposit. Excellence in customer service. Meeting the highest standards in the world. Original games I dreamed up. Letting players control their own odds. No popups. No ads. A tight-knit community. Beautiful graphics. All multiplayer games.

Well, I spent three years writing the software and designing it, and although it's only got 20 games, they're the best there is. And I figured, just don't worry about it. Keep working. Keep your head down. If you build it, they will come.

I got incorporated in Costa Rica, because I couldn't afford anything else. But I figured we'd start with poker, build up our reputation, and then get licensed somewhere and run the casino side.

Turns out, my Costa Rica corporation is a big expensive freakin joke. You can't process payments with a Costa Rica corporation anymore, not without breaking the law everywhere else. No one will even open us a bank account unless we lie about who we are, and I don't want to do that.

I have to thank the people I've met in Curacao and the Netherlands who've been kind to me and had the patience to explain how the world works for me. I wouldn't know what I do about the industry without their kindness. And they opened my eyes to the impossibility of what I was facing. To get licensed in Curacao or somewhere else, I'd need at least $100k floating around. And there's no other way anymore, unless you start rogue and stay rogue, which completely defeats the point.

If there's any hope for me now, it's raising that kind of money eventually. What they told me was, go on and start it for play money and see what happens. What happens when what? They say people walk in their offices all the time with $250k and want to start a casino, and have to choose from the same selection of software that's been around forever. But no one will invest in something untested.

So this is what my dream's been reduced to. I have to basically open it up for play money and just let it go as a website, and hope that enough people like it, demand it, that I can get that kind of investment in it before someone just rips off my ideas and I'm left having done three years of hard labor for nothing but love.

So. I hope that given this situation, the fact that we won't be taking deposits anytime in the foreseeable future, and given our prior conversations, the CM doesn't have a problem with me showing what I've built here. I want people to see the software...see what online casinos SHOULD look like, and some of my really wild concepts about what they SHOULD do and especially see how they should behave toward their customers.

So here's the link, hosted in the US, for play money only. The big tamale. 300,000 lines of original code... and believe me, it makes me feel suicidal to have to do it this way, but here goes:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

I hope you like it. This is probably my damn swan song. I don't think I'll ever try this hard at anything again, so I hope you'll all be kind.

And just so you know: The code for a real money site is there, but we don't even have a bank account, let alone processing, and it ain't happening now or anytime soon. This is not a pitch for anyone to play for real anything. I don't want anyone to accuse me of that. It's what it is ------- I want you guys to see my software, so that hopefully one day I can say that it wasn't all done in vain.

If you want to know how anything works, have any suggestions for what might be improved, or anything like that...drop me a line. I wrote every single line of code in there.

 

[coenie]

maybe interesting

Hey,

You are probably know this, but slotland and winaday (pretty well known casinos) are licenced and registered using the Government of Anjouan.
It costs about 50k a year for the a virtual casino license, i dont know about their reputation, but i thought you maybe find it interesting

here are some links for more info:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

- website from a company dealing with the licenses orso, dont really know but the info was interesting.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

- official goverment website

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

- wiki page

,Coenie

 

[jstrike]

Thanks. And thank you for checking it out.
The problem is, we already have a corporation in Costa Rica. We're legally allowed to set up a server and take bets. But just like anywhere else outside the EU, if we don't have a corporation and a license in the EU, no payment processors will work with us. So we're dead, unless we can afford the license, and all the lawyers and the certificates that go with it. $50k a year is also waaayyyy out of my price range. I mean... right now, this whole thing has cost about $3k over 3 years, because I did all the work.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Demo mode is "forever buffering" - does nothing, and the video just doesn't play.

I wonder how all the other online casinos based in Costa Rica manage to process payments for EU based players. Looks like they have all found a way around the laws that have prevented YOU from processing payments from a Costa Rica based corporation. Maybe they just use dummy companies to disguise the nature and source of the payments. The Virtual group seem to run through a processing arm based in the UK, and probably disguised what they were doing so as to get a bank account within the EU.

It's helpful to have $100K "floating around" though, as enough is needed in case there is an early crop of big winners, who would expect to be paid BEFORE the long term house edge kicked in to provide an income stream.

 

[jstrike]

Hey VW
That's weird, maybe you hit a rough spot...but this is just running off one test server (edit: One shared server); it's supposed to run on 3 (dedicated servers) at least. Can you try it again?

As far as float/payback, we were just going to run 5¢ games and poker at the start, with a $15k float. But yes, $150k is definitely helpful.

Apparently the way the CR guys get around it is by disguising themselves as other things, and processing non-7995 transactions through real estate companies and crap like that. I won't do it. The hell with it. It's not worth sacrificing my soul for.

(edit) To elaborate on that, I've found two ways of making it work from CR. One is to set up a real estate company with a fake website to distract the authorities, then open a bank account and process for that company, moving money constantly in and out of it. Totally shady. The second way is to go through an EU company that disguises the transactions. Because they process basically twice, they charge 9% on deposits. Double the regular rate. Our house edge is very small. The games are very, very favorable to the player. I would have to have about a 14% edge to make it work with their rate, and still scrape by. I'd rather just wait. If I open a site with a 14% house edge, no one will want to play there.

 

[denamoutz]

Hello, i can't get your website to work either!!! would love to see it, but i signed up for account, got email, clicked on verification link, but website keeps telling me i haven't verified it yet

 

[Da_Gambla]

I'm not sure how your dream is dead? Was it because your dream tried to do too much at once and wear every hat?

Can a dream not be broken down into individual modules? If it can, then many of your dreams have in fact come true. The software portion made it to a mature point where it could be played.

It is rare when one individual can take an idea and blossom it into the full product without any other help at all. We can probably find historical instances, but the odds are staggering. The way it happens all the other times, the business idea is brought to life by a GROUP of people, who then hire managers, employees, and outside people like vendors, suppliers, consultants, and lawyers.

Money rules everything. Obviously when a business starts up, there's going to be lots of licensing issues, etc. These are all very expensive things. You have to pay to have the privilege of being an entity in their market.

Are these all really bad things designed to keep an entrepreneur down? Markets will say no, this is to designed to be difficult so that the market does not get flooded with inexperienced businesses. It's a protection mechanism.

Can someone without 100k laying around be trusted to run an entire casino business? How would your casino pay out wins at first? The reason you're told people come in with 250k is because people with money rule the top tier of the game, period. The 250k is just what they walked in with, willing to invest. They more than likely have millions in bank accounts to then actually back up the business they are investing in. IMO, there isn't a single casino, land based or virtual, that isn't owned by the very top by a REAL millionaire. For land based casinos, I'd upgrade that to billionaire.

Ok, well I could lament here for hours, but just end up with a book. The bottom line, is it at all realistic for someone to start a gambling business and start taking deposits from a garage? What experience do you actually have outside of software development (ie., actual casino management)? Would you deposit there, knowing that the casino was run by one guy out of his garage?

You have a talent. There's no reason to pack your marbles and claim 'swan song'. You could easily get inside the business as a software technician, as just one example entry point. Hell, you could even become a millionaire yourself if you branded your software and licensed it out to millionaires opening a casino.

The paths open to you are mind-boggling, but you say your dream is dead? I would say your dream became larger than you, and you need to realize that not only have some of your dreams come true, there are other ares of the dream that are valid and could make you millions.

There are those who don't dream big enough, and get defeated very quickly. There are those who dream too big, and get exhausted running into all the roadblocks chasing the dream. They fail. The successful entrepreneur is the one who can bring in others and start modularizing the larger dream into individual components that can be managed.

Being narrow-minded right now would be tragic. Not only are you a gifted coder, you also represent yourself as a trustworthy person who wants to do things above board. You have the ingredients necessary for success, you just need to be more realistic with which next steps are appropriate.

I mean no disrespect when I say, and again this is based on what little information I have from your original post, opening this casino in its current form and being run by one person, is a disastrous plan.

I do hope you'll find a way to contribute to the industry. It needs it.

- Keith

 

[aceking123]

hi strike , nope it doesnt work as vwm pointed out, just stays in buffering .

 

[jstrike]

Firstly: Keith. Thank you for the hope. It's been a hopeless day and, if I read the signs right, probably I jumped off a cliff.

To people experiencing trouble, I seem to already be under some kind of DoS attack since I posted this an hour ago. The perfect ending to a great day. I'm trying to figure it out. Please be patient.

 

[Scooter7]

There are elements of this software that would be of interest to some of the major providers. You should look into a joint venture that might help you gain some traction as a game creator instead of trying to make the whole casino single-handed. Develop a rep as someone who makes great games and you can build a profitable career.

Feel free to PM me. I have some friends who might be able to give you some leads.

 

[jstrike]

Are you guys able to load any of the video at all, right now? I'm on a slow connection and it seems to be playing, but slowly...

 

[denamoutz]

none at all

 

[jstrike]

It looks like the server might be having some problems with the video player. But, VW and denamoutz -- have you managed to log in at all? dena, I verified you manually...

It looked like a DDOS attack, but I'm still not sure... things are running though, somewhat.

 

[jstrike]

By the way, Keith..
What you're saying is...the advice my father gave me. If I'd taken it two years ago, I wouldn't be two more years down the tubes. But then again, I do believe in this project. The thing is, I never wanted to work for somebody else. That's why I spent every weekend, every all-night coding session, making this thing.

Would I want to gamble with a guy who was based out of his garage. It's a good question. I'd say if I knew who the guy was, I'd probably feel better about it than Bodog, and worse than Pokerstars. Somewhere right in the middle. But I think, if it weren't for the licensing, I could ramp it up and prove it's possible, by starting with parimutuel games only, and never taking a profit until we hit our mark. And as for running it, I don't have experience, but I did stay at a holiday inn express

 

[plasticnote]

I can view your site but the video is just way slow.
--------------------------------------------------
Why you say your dream is dead? You have not started yet.
Being an ex-software guy, I suggest you should talk to some
Venture capital company while building up the user base.

Give some Lucky draw (gift/cash) for people playing your game.
Get bigger userbase and comapny will come to you.

Good one and stick to your dream.
--------------------------------------------------------------

1)by the way, have you stress testing your software/site?
2)do some SEO, the visibility on WWW is the vital.

 

[denamoutz]

sorry, not able to log inconfused: I was looking forward to seeing your site

 

[jstrike]

sorry, not able to log inconfused: I was looking forward to seeing your site

Hey Dena, I just emailed you again with a new password (at the address you put on the site) ... if you can't get in, email me. You can also call me at (877) 6-Strike. I'm usually awake

 

[Emmeline]

jstrike, I had no problem with the registration process or log-in.
Only tried the slot worked fine except from one detail, after each spin I had to choose nr of lines to be able to spin again)
It looks fine, I will check out more, just wanted to tell that it worked.

 

[Repro]

Everything works fine here. Video's are loading fast and everything seems to run smoothly.

When i started to have a look i was eager to see more. Unfortunately after about 10 minutes i lost interest... I understand that this is just a "test" but i play mainly slots and you've got only one.

I like the idea of a player creating their "own" slot by changing settings. I think that's a smart move. I only think that the slot looks too simple to get people to play it. Also it's quite annoying that you have to push multiple buttons to spin and there's no autoplay option.

Still... The software/design looks very good on the outside. I won't give up if i were you. If you really decide to give up you better look for a generous buyer.

Frank

 

[jstrike]

1)by the way, have you stress testing your software/site?
2)do some SEO, the visibility on WWW is the vital.

Yeah... actually, if we ever open for real money, we're going to restrict it to a few hundred players at the beginning, and verify ID before deposit. So it's very word-of-mouth. I do NOT want thousands of people showing up. What I want is a slow, steady, private club.

I'd be happy if we bring in 1,000 good poker players and cap it right there.

 

[denamoutz]

got in Josh, thank you so much for everything, going to check it out now

 

[4 of a kind]

I must say I envy your creative enthusiasm, but feel you lack in the business end of things in a very large way. It's obvious you didn't invest much time in actually researching the cost of a launch. Sadly it sounds like your massively under funded.

Keith, (Da_Gambla) covered some of the more obvious issues very nicely, without even getting into much detail. Just server protection would run up to five didget fiqures per month. Ask Bryan here what he pays just for this site? You mentioned you were only live for an hour or so and already migh have had a DOS attack.

Although, already owning the software, without a serious investor, or personal means to raise the funds needed for a launch, maybe researching alternate ways of marketing your hard work for profit is another option.

You also mentioned you were trying to do business in Costa Rica since it was all you were able to afford. How did you come to that conclusion? Did you actually compare the cost in Costa Rica to other jurisdictions?

If you were able to afford and launch out of Costa Rica, were their certain regulation requirments for the games you offered?

You mention below, QUOTE:

I would have to have about a 14% edge to make it work with their rate, and still scrape by. I'd rather just wait. If I open a site with a 14% house edge, no one will want to play there.

Many casinos operate out of Costa Rica. Are you saying that they need to operate with a 14% house edge just to survive?

Did anyone their mention what the lowest house edge setting legally was authorized to make ends meet?

 

[rainmaker]

I tried your slot. And as someone said before, a bit boring after some minutes. But most players are used to video-slots from MG, Playtech and others so thats no surprise.

There are casinos that has been successful with the use of "easier" slots...like betvoyager. They have more "traditional" slots but I think people uses them because their focus is in trust and reliability, rather than fanzy videogames.

I saw talent when I visited your "casino". I think you have great potential.

But for you to start a whole new Casino. I don`t know. Based on what I saw, you should probably be working full-time with programming.

 

[jstrike]

Many casinos operate out of Costa Rica. Are you saying that they need to operate with a 14% house edge just to survive?

Did anyone their mention what the lowest house edge setting legally was authorized to make ends meet?

We did Costa Rica because it cost us about $1000 to incorporate there. The next option up was Curacao, which needs a corporate structure in the EU, and comes out to about $30k for the first six months plus a lot more in reserve.

The problem with CR is that since the last couple years, no legitimate payment processors will do business there anymore. There are lots of rogue processors that would still do it, but it puts us at risk of not having the money to pay players out. We could start taking bets that way tomorrow, but I can't do it because of those risks. Yes, there are plenty of casinos that operate there, but they are probably mostly rogue for a reason.

We are legally allowed to operate in CR right now. But we can't take bets. At least, definitely not from the EU or with EU processors or banks.

The 14% figure is based on my own calculation, from what we would have to pay to have a legitimate processor cover the risk of doing business with us while we're based in Costa Rica, by running our transactions un-coded through a secondary company in the EU. Of course, this means our assets could be frozen at any time. Again, an unacceptable risk. And for that privilege we would be paying 9% to the processors.

So... I might not be the best businessman, but I know when an option puts me at too much risk. And the one thing I DON'T want to happen is to start up and end up with a processor holding all my player funds, and be unable to pay players out. So I have to stop and wait. There's no other responsible choice.

I do think I could run it. I think so because I know it well, and because we already did a beta test with 100 players where me and a few friends kept things going smoothly, and that was before a lot of the bugs were worked out.

But when you take into account the taxes, the lawyers, the bureaucracies, the cost of preventing DOS that you mentioned, the attempts at blackmail, the cost of bank introductions and the amount you have to have just to open the necessary accounts... you almost need to be a sovereign to be able to do this. What's ironic is, you could have that much money and use it to open a scam operation; or you could try to do something straight like this, and if it were like any normal website and the world left you alone to do regular business, it wouldn't be a problem. But it isn't, the world doesn't leave you alone. The lawyers attack like starving mosquitoes.

This is the essence of what I've learned.

I think if I could open it to a thousand players, like a normal website with a cap on signups, I could make $4-5000 a month and be able to quit my day job. To be honest, that's the whole point of this. If that was stable, and I could hand it off, I'd sell it and start a new project. Unfortunately, I chose what has to be the hardest, most insane startup project anyone could try...and I'm still finding out every day just how deep the black hole goes...

 

[rainmaker]

Or you can come and have a ordinary job in Norway. The average monthly wage for 2010 was about $ 6600

Anyway, good luck with your project. If it fails, I`m sure that you have the potential to join MG or somebody as a programmer. Maybe you are the one who will create Thunderstruck 3

We did Costa Rica because it cost us about $1000 to incorporate there. The next option up was Curacao, which needs a corporate structure in the EU, and comes out to about $30k for the first six months plus a lot more in reserve.

The problem with CR is that since the last couple years, no legitimate payment processors will do business there anymore. There are lots of rogue processors that would still do it, but it puts us at risk of not having the money to pay players out. We could start taking bets that way tomorrow, but I can't do it because of those risks. Yes, there are plenty of casinos that operate there, but they are probably mostly rogue for a reason.

We are legally allowed to operate in CR right now. But we can't take bets. At least, definitely not from the EU or with EU processors or banks.

The 14% figure is based on my own calculation, from what we would have to pay to have a legitimate processor cover the risk of doing business with us while we're based in Costa Rica, by running our transactions un-coded through a secondary company in the EU. Of course, this means our assets could be frozen at any time. Again, an unacceptable risk. And for that privilege we would be paying 9% to the processors.

So... I might not be the best businessman, but I know when an option puts me at too much risk. And the one thing I DON'T want to happen is to start up and end up with a processor holding all my player funds, and be unable to pay players out. So I have to stop and wait. There's no other responsible choice.

I do think I could run it. I think so because I know it well, and because we already did a beta test with 100 players where me and a few friends kept things going smoothly, and that was before a lot of the bugs were worked out.

But when you take into account the taxes, the lawyers, the bureaucracies, the cost of preventing DOS that you mentioned, the attempts at blackmail, the cost of bank introductions and the amount you have to have just to open the necessary accounts... you almost need to be a sovereign to be able to do this. What's ironic is, you could have that much money and use it to open a scam operation; or you could try to do something straight like this, and if it were like any normal website and the world left you alone to do regular business, it wouldn't be a problem. But it isn't, the world doesn't leave you alone. The lawyers attack like starving mosquitoes.

This is the essence of what I've learned.

I think if I could open it to a thousand players, like a normal website with a cap on signups, I could make $4-5000 a month and be able to quit my day job. To be honest, that's the whole point of this. If that was stable, and I could hand it off, I'd sell it and start a new project. Unfortunately, I chose what has to be the hardest, most insane startup project anyone could try...and I'm still finding out every day just how deep the black hole goes...

 

[jstrike]

Or you can come and have a ordinary job in Norway. The average monthly wage for 2010 was about $ 6600

Anyway, good luck with your project. If it fails, I`m sure that you have the potential to join MG or somebody as a programmer. Maybe you are the one who will create Thunderstruck 3

Hah... well the truth is, I still like my regular work and won't give it up. And my main passion is music. But it would be nice to have funding for the next project, whatever it is, and a little extra in my pocket. The trouble is, who knows the guy that programmed Thunderstruck? I spent too long in an office cubicle. I quit four years ago and I freelance. I started writing this thing when my girlfriend and I were living in a Mitsubishi van in Australia. We were in a place called Inverell. It's the sapphire mining capital of the world. That's how I gave it the name. The first thing I did was that animation of the spinning sapphire. Everything else came after that. For three long years.

So I mean, I could have coded an auction website or something, and been much wealthier by now. But it's important to me to make a statement, do it alone, and when people say it's impossible, it makes me want to do it more. It's not really the money... though some money would be nice...

 

[jstrike]

Everything works fine here. Video's are loading fast and everything seems to run smoothly.

When i started to have a look i was eager to see more. Unfortunately after about 10 minutes i lost interest... I understand that this is just a "test" but i play mainly slots and you've got only one.

I like the idea of a player creating their "own" slot by changing settings. I think that's a smart move. I only think that the slot looks too simple to get people to play it. Also it's quite annoying that you have to push multiple buttons to spin and there's no autoplay option.

Still... The software/design looks very good on the outside. I won't give up if i were you. If you really decide to give up you better look for a generous buyer.

Frank

Thanks for the review, Frank.

I was trying to cover all the bases with one slot... similar to the other games, because I had to start with one of each. So it's only one slot right now, but it's also kind of a template. It will be pretty easy for me to use this basic one to create slots with new themes, more lines, bonus rounds, animation and all the nifty stuff people expect these days. The slot especially is a "proof of concept" thing right now, even more than the other games are. I do think the auto-replay comment is a really good remark and I'm going to look into changing that tomorrow.

To anyone going on the site tonight...I'm signing off until about 8am EST...so don't be alarmed if you don't hear back before then. This is not a "real casino" launch, so there's no one here to manage anything but me. Let me know if anything blows up. Thank you all so much for checking it out, and the great feedback. :notworthy

 

[kombucha]

Wow you coded your own casino that knowledge is worth alot!
if you want to cover a small club why not make it a high roller casino or something like that..

 

[weplant]

quote" I really wanted to do it right, no US players" end of quote...

What do US players have the plague??

 

[petro]

I don't get it.
100k is a very small amount.
Almost anyone, anywhere in the world should be able to get 100k.

btw the video on that site refuses to load.

 

[kombucha]

if one wants to set up their own casino they could use playtech etc which is like 70k or let someone write the code which is more like 500k.. why don't you go earn some money first and start your casino when you are ready?

 

[Seventh777]

Not had a look at your site yet, just glossing over the replies and most have the same opinion - You are a talented guy that has got this far and your dream is far from over, if I were in your shoes i`d go for broke trying to get a spot on Dragons Den, do the market research, expected profits once the RTP has had time to do the cycles, projected profits for x amounts of their cash invested, can`t go wrong IMHO, just hound the fck out of them 24/7/365, at the end of the day your enthusiasm /talent /figures to suit, will get their interest, no doubting that.

 

[Deeplay]

Checked out your site played a few games then the video froze. Slots are the hook for online casinos so many more would be needed in my view to make your casino a success. However you have taken an idea and made it into a reality so big kudos to you for that! You actually have a product that you have coded and created yourself, with casino games that work. You also have a few interesting ideas which could be of interest to other operators.

Somwhere down the line to get this going you would need an investor/s or backing. If it was me I would be pitching my idea to as many money people as possible. I have invested in a small way in the past in a few online ventures (not gaming related) but before I put any of my money up I always needed a full business plan with full clear cut financial forcasts that were backed up with hard facts. Without these I wouldnt invest a dime. Maybe work more on your vision and business plan, your product is it seems complete and can be enhanced , e.g smoother graphics , more slots, and such like.

This should be of interest to any company or person wanting to get into the online Casino biz and more than that they could be very interested in what is in your head - e.g the ability to program and create casino games from the ground up. Wish you well with it and i'm sure somwhere down the line if you can get your business side of things locked down then you have a shot of finding that elusive investor.

 

[Zoozie]

Possible business models:

1. Sell the complete project if you can find a buyer. That way it is not a waste.
2. Instead of hosting your own casino on your own software(like 3Dice does) do what every other casino software provider does -> find clients. You are just the software provider. It runs is a browser so it is pretty lightweight, it just
needs to integrate with the clients bank system for deposit/withdrawals. Obvious clients are bookmaker sites that does not allready have a casino.

Also it is important to have the software RNG certificed. We already have a CM member that actually does that for a living.

 

[vinylweatherman]

We did Costa Rica because it cost us about $1000 to incorporate there. The next option up was Curacao, which needs a corporate structure in the EU, and comes out to about $30k for the first six months plus a lot more in reserve.

The problem with CR is that since the last couple years, no legitimate payment processors will do business there anymore. There are lots of rogue processors that would still do it, but it puts us at risk of not having the money to pay players out. We could start taking bets that way tomorrow, but I can't do it because of those risks. Yes, there are plenty of casinos that operate there, but they are probably mostly rogue for a reason.

We are legally allowed to operate in CR right now. But we can't take bets. At least, definitely not from the EU or with EU processors or banks.

The 14% figure is based on my own calculation, from what we would have to pay to have a legitimate processor cover the risk of doing business with us while we're based in Costa Rica, by running our transactions un-coded through a secondary company in the EU. Of course, this means our assets could be frozen at any time. Again, an unacceptable risk. And for that privilege we would be paying 9% to the processors.

So... I might not be the best businessman, but I know when an option puts me at too much risk. And the one thing I DON'T want to happen is to start up and end up with a processor holding all my player funds, and be unable to pay players out. So I have to stop and wait. There's no other responsible choice.

I do think I could run it. I think so because I know it well, and because we already did a beta test with 100 players where me and a few friends kept things going smoothly, and that was before a lot of the bugs were worked out.

But when you take into account the taxes, the lawyers, the bureaucracies, the cost of preventing DOS that you mentioned, the attempts at blackmail, the cost of bank introductions and the amount you have to have just to open the necessary accounts... you almost need to be a sovereign to be able to do this. What's ironic is, you could have that much money and use it to open a scam operation; or you could try to do something straight like this, and if it were like any normal website and the world left you alone to do regular business, it wouldn't be a problem. But it isn't, the world doesn't leave you alone. The lawyers attack like starving mosquitoes.

This is the essence of what I've learned.

I think if I could open it to a thousand players, like a normal website with a cap on signups, I could make $4-5000 a month and be able to quit my day job. To be honest, that's the whole point of this. If that was stable, and I could hand it off, I'd sell it and start a new project. Unfortunately, I chose what has to be the hardest, most insane startup project anyone could try...and I'm still finding out every day just how deep the black hole goes...

This shows that it is hard to run a completely "honest" casino, yet be able to compete with the rest. Others WILL take these legal shortcuts, exploit every legal loophole their lawyers can find, and come up with schemes to screw more money out of their customers.

If your main interest is music, you have something that CAN make your software unique, DECENT MUSIC for the games, along with novel sound effects. This is the weakness with the main brands, as although the games may be "cutting edge", it tends to be corners, not edges, that are cut when it comes to the sound.

Remember that Wizard gaming had a similar idea, and they FAILED! In the end, they gave up the fight and auctioned off their code suffering a loss on the costs of development.

Without the backing to achieve launch, all you have is a demonstration product.

You could make up a demo version on a laptop, and take it along to the nearest trade shows to see whether there is enough industry interest to make it worth your while continuing with the project.

 

[PlexRep]

Hi Josh,

Reading the thread, most of the main points seem to have been covered. All good points and you clearly came to the best place for frank and helpful advice.

Not sure if you got a chance to look at the link I gave you in chat the other night. I was 'Poom' .. I believe we played some poker... But if you'd like to pick my brains further or need the link again just pm me and I'll pass it on.

Also, in case you're not aware, there is a big upcoming iGaming super show in Dublin at the end of May. you could maybe try to tout your wares/skills to some people there, or even get yourself a stand and see what comes from it. It's one of many conventions on the calendar worth checking out. Amsterdam... Barcelona... you just missed London.

You may need to adapt your dream somewhat, but you clearly have skills, integrity and passion so I have no doubt something good can still come from all your efforts, if not your original plan.

All the best

 

[jstrike]

First of all, I'm blown away by the level-headed advice I'm getting here.

I should mention that I actually had NO plan to demo the software publicly before launching it, the idea really scared me (still does); nor was I ready for a launch.

Basically last night, my last good-sounding option pretty much collapsed (I thought I had a lead on a $5k sublicense in Curacao -- man did they set me straight). And everyone's been saying, just show it, maybe try to make something by selling the software instead of trying to launch it yourself.

But I didn't do it in a controlled way; instead, I had a minor nervous breakdown and wrote this post, then realized I hadn't even uploaded all the languages yet and started scrambling. I'm actually happy with how it turned out though, because there have been some really great responses here, and you guys clearly know what you're talking about. It's rare to have a conversation with anybody who has any idea what I'm been dealing with.

So, focusing on the software seems to be the consensus here, too. But I can't help it. I started this with the hope of not having to work for other people anymore. And just the act of running it is important, because like in the beta test, that's how I can figure out its weaknesses and what needs to be improved. Like, last night when a lot of people hit the site at once and the video went down. I can't sell something that hasn't been stress tested in every possible way. I know I can keep it running and fix the problems as they show up, manually if necessary. But I don't know if someone else could do it without knowing the software inside-out.

And at the end of the day, how this would be run is important to me, too. I don't want it to be used for evil. I want to have control over what operators would do with it. The transparency, the idea of pre-screening real players, fast withdrawals, BANNING withdrawal rollbacks completely, the responsible gaming policies, self-bans, etc., allowing special bring-your-own-bot poker tables...these things are important to me too. They're built into the software. I wouldn't want someone trying to mess with any of that, but they would.

What scares me most is that I'll end up back in an office somewhere, acting as a stressed-out tech support guy for my own product, while someone else gets to have all the fun and profit from running it and making the decisions of how it's used. Possibly even driving it into the ground. This has happened to me with other projects in the past. I'm sure that Microgaming didn't start off thinking they'd license to scumbags and rogues either, and have to cover for operators who ran off with their players money. But the industry is so full of crooks it seems almost unavoidable that licensees will stab you in the back just like payment processors and anyone else who has any kind of control over the operation.

Doomed4ever: A rep in Curacao just told me almost exactly the same thing; look for a sportsbook that wants a non-competing addition to their site, license through them. Very sage advice. It may be the only good option. Also, about the slots...I know it's a big hook. It's definitely next on the to-do list. But I had to stop working on new games...a project like this is never really done. But I had to pick a time to take it out of the basement and try to actually do something with it. If it looks like it's going anywhere, more slots will be the first thing I focus on. One good thing about the platform is, it's like 524k right now. Every new game adds about 2k. And they're pretty easy to write. Some of them only took me a few days. Although that slot machine took like 2 months, most of it was spent figuring out how the math and security had to work to keep it so that the max payout set by the casino was never exceeded, no matter how the player weights the reels. So from that, spinning out new ones should be a breeze.

weplant: About US players; I'm an American. If I take bets from the US, it's game over, jail time. Believe me, I'd like to. But I don't have the luxury of being from Canada or the UK (and even with that, look at what lengths the American gov't goes to, to hunt down gaming CEOs)...

petro: 100k is a small amount for some people and a lot of money for me.

PlexRep: I did check it out. The thing is...it's out of my price range. It's just too much to pay to be able to take the tiny volume of bets I'd be expecting for the first few months. Payment processors I've talked with ask if we'll be starting with $500k per month or higher. They laugh when I say $25k the first month. But if I'm going to grow it responsibly, I'd have to cap signups at something like 50 to 100 per month. I can run it like that because four of my buddies from high school all own a piece of the project, and are willing to work shifts for equity. The problem with all the licensing authorities is, their base rates just aren't made for anything this small (and I don't think they'd take anyone without serious extra cash to start with, either... that's what I'm hearing most places).

Where this leaves it:
Other than finding a sportsbook interested in licensing it -- and they'd have to be the right fit and really trustworthy people, because I'm going to have to be working with them 24/7 -- the only thing I could do right now is bank in Costa Rica through a shell company and do all the transactions by check / wire transfer / Western Union. I don't think that's going to be very appealing to players. It MIGHT work if I started it as a private weekend poker tournament and just kept $1 tables / 25¢ machines around for entertainment while people were waiting for the tournament to start. But I'm kind of dreaming again with that, because we'd still be in an uncomfortable position with bankers and go-betweens we don't really trust, who could leave us high and dry.

Anyway. Thank you all for checking it out. Any more thoughts or ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Cheers,
Josh

 

[jstrike]

Just a note to the people who commented about the lack of automatic replaying on the slot machine, thanks for the advice! I just added the feature. It definitely makes the play faster and more fun. I'm a caveman when it comes to slots, so all this type of advice is great.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

I have some advice, you may not like it, but here goes;


You seem too rigid. While I admire your determination and positive action, I think you offer too little and ask for too much.

You want 2 big things:

- Complete control over the casino, yet all you have is a software that is still far from ready to be live (no offense) and you don't have the money (millions) to start a good operation.
I mean, if you have the money, fine, you can control everything, but if you want someone to put in money (as a partner or to license your software), you are going to need to be flexible. I must say, I like your vision, but many people with a lot of experience will want/not want certain things.

- Low processing fees, but don't offer any volume/minimum monthlys
Seriously, given everything you had said, if you can't handle 9%; something is wrong with your business model. Period. Most casinos handle around that, plus huge royalties to software providers and affiliate payouts. This is not a high margin industry; you need volume to have profitability.



Basically, what you are saying is that you can't find food that is delirious, salty, fatty, healthy and makes you lose weight that is also cheap, fast and easy for you to get. I mean, you need to make concessions.



Also, in my personal opinion, what you are trying to do would be great in 1999. But now a days, in online gaming, either you go big or go home. And I think you need to get into that mentality. There are business reasons this is the current state of the industry, and if you don't understand what those business reasons are, then you are probably over your head with the business side, and you need someone to help in that area.

The business side to this industry is so complex, that you trying to take it all on without through knowledge of the business side, is like someone who isn't a programmer trying to code an online casino; it is not very feasible.

Oh and I don't think it will work without at least 5-10 slot games to start. Maybe also look into integrating some other operators live casino; to make your suite more attractive.

 

[silcnlayc]

Zoozie: Possible business models:

1. Sell the complete project if you can find a buyer. That way it is not a waste.
2. Instead of hosting your own casino on your own software(like 3Dice does) do what every other casino software provider does -> find clients. You are just the software provider. It runs is a browser so it is pretty lightweight, it just needs to integrate with the clients bank system for deposit/withdrawals. Obvious clients are bookmaker sites that does not allready have a casino.

Also it is important to have the software RNG certificed. We already have a CM member that actually does that for a living.

What an excellent idea! I think that would be an excellent option.

.

 

[jstrike]

The business side to this industry is so complex, that you trying to take it all on without through knowledge of the business side, is like someone who isn't a programmer trying to code an online casino; it is not very feasible.

I know. And, if someone were trying to do that, I'd tell them they didn't have a chance in hell. So I do get where you're coming from.

The business side has a steep learning curve, and it makes the technical parts seem easy to me. But it's because I started off thinking I knew all I needed to know. The more I realize I don't know, the more I learn. Maybe that's the point of all this.

About the 9% ...I guess if you figure in the margins paid to license holders and software vendors, then that figure seems low. But 4.5% seems more standard. Either way, you're right, it's the scale that's the major problem. Small scale and low funding means we have to focus on mostly parimutuel games like poker, and the rakes and guarantees have to be very competitive. It could be competitive by virtue of the fact that I don't have to pay software overhead, but because the smallest flat licensing and corporate fees possible are still too much overhead for us percentage-wise, 9% processing would be crippling on top of that.

This is in some way just a matter of the industry maturing and, in the process, choking out the possibility of small (honest) startups.

Still, I don't think you have to go big. Frankly. Anecdotal, but...I used to work at a coffee house, around 1999. It was just big enough to have six small tables inside. Then Starbucks opened two stores within a three block radius of the place. But it didn't go out of business. It changed hours to open at 6 pm and close at 4 am. It's still there. The owner earns a tidy income, basically for hanging out with his friends all night. It's always packed. When I worked there, I used to deal dollar blackjack from behind the counter all night, to four seats at a time, banking it myself. We always had a no-limit poker game going, too, with a steady stream of regulars, 7 days a week. I used to come in on my nights off just to hang out and play.

That's where I'm coming from, and that's the business I'm trying to open. I know it sounds ludicrous to people who are used to this industry... but it would suit me better. I'd rather know everybody at the tables anyway. Wherever it went from there, would be a different conversation for another day.

What I'm saying is, I want to open an eclectic restaurant, and I think you're saying if it ain't ready to be MacDonald's, I'm gonna get eaten alive. I know I don't know much. But I don't completely believe that. I still think there's gotta be a way. I think it because, in my mind, there's a market, and it's worth it to me to find them.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

I know. And, if someone were trying to do that, I'd tell them they didn't have a chance in hell. So I do get where you're coming from.

The business side has a steep learning curve, and it makes the technical parts seem easy to me. But it's because I started off thinking I knew all I needed to know. The more I realize I don't know, the more I learn. Maybe that's the point of all this.

About the 9% ...I guess if you figure in the margins paid to license holders and software vendors, then that figure seems low. But 4.5% seems more standard. Either way, you're right, it's the scale that's the major problem. Small scale and low funding means we have to focus on mostly parimutuel games like poker, and the rakes and guarantees have to be very competitive. It could be competitive by virtue of the fact that I don't have to pay software overhead, but because the smallest flat licensing and corporate fees possible are still too much overhead for us percentage-wise, 9% processing would be crippling on top of that.

This is in some way just a matter of the industry maturing and, in the process, choking out the possibility of small (honest) startups.

Still, I don't think you have to go big. Frankly. Anecdotal, but...I used to work at a coffee house, around 1999. It was just big enough to have six small tables inside. Then Starbucks opened two stores within a three block radius of the place. But it didn't go out of business. It changed hours to open at 6 pm and close at 4 am. It's still there. The owner earns a tidy income, basically for hanging out with his friends all night. It's always packed. When I worked there, I used to deal dollar blackjack from behind the counter all night, to four seats at a time, banking it myself. We always had a no-limit poker game going, too, with a steady stream of regulars, 7 days a week. I used to come in on my nights off just to hang out and play.

That's where I'm coming from, and that's the business I'm trying to open. I know it sounds ludicrous to people who are used to this industry... but it would suit me better. I'd rather know everybody at the tables anyway. Wherever it went from there, would be a different conversation for another day.

What I'm saying is, I want to open an eclectic restaurant, and I think you're saying if it ain't ready to be MacDonald's, I'm gonna get eaten alive. I know I don't know much. But I don't completely believe that. I still think there's gotta be a way. I think it because, in my mind, there's a market, and it's worth it to me to find them.

Well, lets be clear, are you:

1- looking to just take bets from friends and family
2- looking to set up an online business where you take bets from people you don't know, and who are going to pay upfront with their CC

If it is 1, you might as well just pay a per head shop and book action without too much complication. If it is 2, then it is a whole'nother ball game; you're in the deep sea; like it or not you are competing with everyone else.

You seem to imply there is a middle ground. And if you found it, I really wish you luck. But to me, it sound like you are being unrealistic and it seems like the brick wall of reality is hitting. Sorry to say.

Oh and I fully agree with you on the industry machuring.

 

[RedAndi]

Just want to say very cool of Nicolas to come in and offer advice and engage in discussion with jstrike on this.
I believe Enzo did in another thread also.

So thumbs up to both for being "cool" industry people

 

[jstrike]

If it is 1, you might as well just pay a per head shop and book action without too much complication. If it is 2, then it is a whole'nother ball game; you're in the deep sea; like it or not you are competing with everyone else.

It's actually a lot closer to 1 than 2, at least right now. That's a really interesting thought. The software is already built to let agents ("regional chiefs") manage their own players, tournaments, etc. But I always assumed that deposits / withdrawals would go through a central system, and that the regional chiefs would just get a cut. I have it so that when a chief comps one of their players, the amount comes out of his earnings...and likewise, rakes can be divided up on the backend even if ten chiefs had ten players on the same table.

I guess I could make the whole thing into a credit system with very little tweaking... heck, maybe that's the way to go. Charge per head and let agents manage funding in and out? I never considered that.

Good of you to engage in this, by the way. Thanks for the food for thought.

edit: I just realized why there aren't PPH shops that let one agent's players play against another's. Duhhh...