I'm Done With Online Gambling

[Westland Bowl]

There is a big contrast between land-based casinos where you can see the cards being shuffled and drawn from the shoe and the online casinos where you don't and you are supposed to trust them to deal you a fair game.

Online casinos are computerized and as such they will analyze your betting strategy and make strategic adjustments in anticipation to your moves. This is not random to the extent that real shuffled cards are. With knowledge of how you bet and your bet amount before the cards are dealt, the result will be likely in favor of the online casino even though cards drawn will still meet the definition of "fair and random."

I do much better in land casinos using some of the same strategies I used online. I know of others who experienced the same thing.

But I know there are those who would disagree with me. That's fine with me. I would just say look at what you are facing when gambling online: software that analyzes your strategy and the virtual cards, wheel or dice; optimizing software that favors the online casino while maintaining appearances of fairness.

I've had enough of it. I'm quitting while way ahead. If regulation comes in US, I'll be reviewing government auditors methodology and procedures of how they determine a fair online game.

For now, the reality is the online casino holds the cards, hidden from you. If land-based casinos did that, there would be far fewer land casinos. Think about it.

P.S. I believe the closest fair gambling software is Galewind Software that powers Pinnacle Sportsbook. But Pinnacle is not available to US players.

 

[jstrike]

I don't know, man. You're saying pretty much every online casino's crooked. Maybe that's true and maybe it ain't...but the whole point of this site seems to be for people to out the crooked ones, get rid of them, and pave the way for the honest ones.

When I hear people say the cards are dealt according to your betting strategy, I usually think they're assuming facts not in evidence. First of all, do you have any idea how hard it is to write a piece of software that "knows" what an individual player's betting strategy is? Sure it can see you tend to hit on 15 against a 6 or something glaring like that. Or it can see you double your bet every hand until you hit three times or lose. But how on earth is it gonna know what you're really going to do? And does it look ahead cards in the shoe? If they're licensed in a lot of jurisdictions, there's no way for a casino operator to sneak that kind of code in there. Updates can't go straight from the coders to the server without passing through audit. If they're unlicensed, and they've been in business for ten years and aren't listed as rogue around here, then you probably had a run of bad luck.

Anyway, if someone wanted to rig a blackjack game, they'd have to put in a ****load of code to monitor your betting strategy -- bare minimum we're talking about a whole separate database and a few thousand lines. There's no way you can sneak that onto a website past an audit. There's a much easier way to do it, and that's to double deal cards on the dealer's side; that's something you can do with about two lines of code. But with the volume most online casinos have, and the number of mathematically smart players hanging around, it would be about a half hour before someone spotted what was going on and posted it up on here or another site like this.

I just don't buy it. I think there are some bad outfits, but I don't think they're all crooked. I know there's this human tendency to blame the casino when you're on a losing streak and I've fallen that way more than once myself. But there's a collective bargaining power of players here to keep the legit casinos in line, and that hopefully will be the seeds of real regulation. So I'd say if you got evidence you were cheated somewhere, you should show it and go after those people, but a blanket statement like this really doesn't do much good to anyone.

 

[Westland Bowl]

I don't know, man. You're saying pretty much every online casino's crooked. Maybe that's true and maybe it ain't...but the whole point of this site seems to be for people to out the crooked ones, get rid of them, and pave the way for the honest ones.

Galewind Software is about the only one I know of that is more honest than all others.

When I hear people say the cards are dealt according to your betting strategy, I usually think they're assuming facts not in evidence. First of all, do you have any idea how hard it is to write a piece of software that "knows" what an individual player's betting strategy is? Sure it can see you tend to hit on 15 against a 6 or something glaring like that. Or it can see you double your bet every hand until you hit three times or lose. But how on earth is it gonna know what you're really going to do?

There is artificial intelligence that is used by various industries including online casinos. It is amazing what it can do. It doesn't really have to know what you REALLY going to do; it is just enough to know your betting tendencies.

And does it look ahead cards in the shoe?

There is NO shoe. It doesn't exist in casino software. Global Player Casino was the only online casino that I knew of that actually employed a virtual shoe and a player could actually do card counting there. As a result their maximum limits were very low, either $25 or $50. They closed several years ago.

If they're licensed in a lot of jurisdictions, there's no way for a casino operator to sneak that kind of code in there.

There is not a lot, if any, oversight of online casinos. As long as the casinos pay their fees, it's 'hands off'. Those in licensing jurisdictions actually don't have much expertise to examine source code of software providers who may not even be located in the jurisdiction.

Updates can't go straight from the coders to the server without passing through audit.

Audits look at the randomness of cards drawn rather than if the software uses betting strategy analysis. It is rare to see an actual audit methodology used to test a casino's software. A comparison of win/loss ratios between low stakes versus higher stakes would be very useful.

If they're unlicensed, and they've been in business for ten years and aren't listed as rogue around here, then you probably had a run of bad luck.

I know bad luck when I see it. I usually wait it out. When "bad luck" keeps repeating itself over and over and over and over, it's not bad luck. You expect to win at least 40% over time but it's every time. It's no longer "Win some, lose some" but "Lose some, lose some more."

Anyway, if someone wanted to rig a blackjack game, they'd have to put in a ****load of code to monitor your betting strategy -- bare minimum we're talking about a whole separate database and a few thousand lines. There's no way you can sneak that onto a website past an audit.

An audit doesn't look at those things.

There's a much easier way to do it, and that's to double deal cards on the dealer's side; that's something you can do with about two lines of code. But with the volume most online casinos have, and the number of mathematically smart players hanging around, it would be about a half hour before someone spotted what was going on and posted it up on here or another site like this.

I doubt this would happen unlike the time poker players found out about stuff going on at Ultimate Bet. Blackjack players play by themselves versus with a group of players viewing the same cards. With blackjack, you would have to give a benefit of a doubt that you just hit a bad streak but when the bad streak goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on, it's not a bad streak. I've seen the same crap happen too many times to say this is a bad streak.

I just don't buy it. I think there are some bad outfits, but I don't think they're all crooked. I know there's this human tendency to blame the casino when you're on a losing streak and I've fallen that way more than once myself. But there's a collective bargaining power of players here to keep the legit casinos in line, and that hopefully will be the seeds of real regulation. So I'd say if you got evidence you were cheated somewhere, you should show it and go after those people, but a blanket statement like this really doesn't do much good to anyone.

Fine. The evidence would be buried in the source code of the casino software provider. All I can say is the cards are hidden and why is that? I know I'm not playing online anymore as it is currently setup.

 

[jod5413]

Westland Bowl, I understand how you must feel. I am not a big gambler so it is hard for me to understand that accredited casinos are not fair or let's say "random" within the means of their money flow.

I always wonder about the people that say they do better at a land based casino VS a on line casino. I do know that there are a huge group of on line casino players that play every day. Then my question would be "how often do you go to a B&M casino" Once a month, week, every day?

How can most of you compare the two (on line & B&M) based on two different premises, one is everyday, one is a lot less? Not my best post, but it is hard for me to figure out how to ask this question? Any answers would be appreciated.

 

[JAMES50]

Everyday online you are sure to lose much more than once aweek at land base....You are right it doesn't compare..Land based you get your money in hand..Online you wait a week and in between time you lose and end up with less....I am afraid untill it is regulated they will call all the shots and the bottom line is $$$$..Yes,though they could compare to indian casino's

 

[jod5413]

My entire post was trying to explain that gambling every day at a B&M casino would probably show the same win/lose situation as the on line gambling. You win less the more you play. Is that clearer?

Feel free, Nash and a few other high rollers to convince me otherwise.

 

[Mavin1]

Computer versus Live Dealer, animated games versus Real Cards being dealt, it's not that hard to figure out.


I would like to add also, first I am not an avid poker player, but have played it quite a bit in fun mode. This is my observation, they play exactly the same as slots.

By this I mean on multi line slots, the majority of wins are 3 matching symbols on a payline, classic slots, the bottom 3 wins on the paytable, poker, the lowest 3 wins on the paytable.

Just as with slots, poker plays exactly the same. same predictable nature as in all aspects of online gaming.


I dedicate my response to 4ofaKind.

 

[silcnlayc]

jod5413: Feel free, Nash and a few other high rollers to convince me otherwise.

There is no convincing those that will not believe Jod. No matter what they show or say...it still remains what it is. Those that believe that casinos have gone to the wayside (I have believed this for a long time the same as Westland Bowl does now). I am just surprised how long it takes some to come to the realization that casinos are not what they were. I trusted completely for years...until the last few years...then I believed in the changes that the casino did were to the detriment of the player no matter how much "shoving" done my throat all the naysayers tried to do...and it was a lot...goes back quite a few years....and yet it all is coming to pass...players are starting to believe from their own experiences....

Reality will bite many more in the butt and if it takes a longer time, then so be it...it is your dime you continue to give up so easily because you do not believe casinos would do "that"....So, I ask you, how does one convince others that do not believe and will not believe till it is too late? You can't, not till you have been bitten once too many times and when it comes down to it, it doesn't feel quite right "in you mind" anymore.

Some of us long time players began to believe a lot earlier and decided a while back to back off when things changed in "our minds" and tried to give warnings to others of what was coming and what was to be....because we believed it was starting to be done (the changes) but no one can help you decide or believe because there is no so called proof...as so many demanded we show...everyone will believe what they want...no matter what is shown....

It is called denial.....sad truth is, casinos are here to make money, lots of it....and when one stops playing there is always the next player to clean out...casinos do not care...they are NOT your friends...they are here to make MONEY anyway they can...bottom line talks...end of story...

(Going back in my corner to watch, as it all unravels slowly as time will tell because I still believe that all casinos have gone to some extent, to the wayside....)

.

 

[LinkinFart]

Lets theorize that Westlan Bowl is right.

First of all, do you have any idea how hard it is to write a piece of software that "knows" what an individual player's betting strategy is?

Actually its hard only the first time. When you take into consideration how many people play the same strategy chances are that this strategy had already been covered by the software.

But how on earth is it gonna know what you're really going to do?

Thats why it is called "strategy". You follow the rules not guessing what is the right thing to do. You may change your decision but big numbers will definitely lean toward "strategy" determined move.

If they're licensed in a lot of jurisdictions, there's no way for a casino operator to sneak that kind of code in there.

If You know a licensing body that is doing RNG testing please write it down, I dont know a single one thats doing this. Usually, if not always, licensing body is asking for certificate issued by some certifying firm that RNG will produce number sufficiently random so player cant determine the result of whatever casino game this RNG is going to be used with. Since licensing body is not doing the testing they dont know if RNG code provided to them is really the one that was tested, unless you can imagine a scenario where 2 most honest security guards in the world take tested RNG in chained chest directly from certifying firm to license provider. All changes to code after it has been submitted, in case of Kahnawake gaming commission, must be announced prior to changes taking place. I dont know if other licensing jurisdiction have this rule, I never saw one when I was looking for other things, but lets assume they do have such rule. Are they checking if new code submitted has something "malicious" in it or not, we will never know for sure. But my best guess is that code itself comes to licensing body already modified and updated in small chunks if needed, small enough to slip unoticed in case licensing bodies really do try to keep everything honest.

Updates can't go straight from the coders to the server without passing through audit

I kind of answered this at the end of the previous quote.

if someone wanted to rig a blackjack game, they'd have to put in a ****load of code to monitor your betting strategy

Not really. For reasons already mentioned, most likely youre not the first person playing this strategy. Also, they dont need that much code or inteligence to make the code that will monitor your betting patterns and your "weak spots". Every strategy has the same goal only differs in numbers and numbers are something computers can calculate really fast. They dont have to deduct what you are trying to do.
For example, if you are watching person on the street and you know that person is trying to cross the street. Figuring out how will that person cross the street will not be complicated because there are only few ways it can cross that street. Once that person makes the first step in endeavour to cross the street you will most likely be able to rule out most if not all the wrong ways that person could have taken but didnt.
On the other hand, if you are watching a person on the street and have no clue what that person is going to do than it becomes really difficult to predict what that person will do. Will it cross the street or just throw itself in front of the first car that comes along. Will it go back to where it came from... You cant tell because there are numerous options. Its simple as that, prove me wrong if you think I am wrong.

it would be about a half hour before someone spotted what was going on and posted it up on here or another site like this.

You can spot obvious ones but not the ones that are being upgraded for years to be more and more "stealthier" also "sneakier" than the previous version. The obvious cheap one man sideshows also known as rogue casinos.
Westland bowl, you mentioned ULTIMATE BET scandal and mentioned poker players discovering it. Well this is not entirely true. Poker players would never be able to prove anything if someone from the inside, I dont think we ever found out who it was, didnt send hand histories which included not only standard data but complete server data with IP addresses, user accounts and all hole cards. If those same players that chewed through endless letters and numbers had only standard histories to look at they would have never caught Potripper. The other scandal I didnt research that deep but it seems they got caught by KGC or just pulled publicity stunt in hope to gain trust again, both KGC and, I`ll call it Cereus, cant remember the name of the company.

Westland bowl

A comparison of win/loss ratios between low stakes versus higher stakes would be very useful.

I highly doubt that we will ever see something like this but I highly doubt there is a difference. Biggers fish needs bigger bait thats the only difference between the people playing small and high stakes. I dont know if you are aware of something that happened on one other forum but in case you are not.
RTG based casino rep promised a webcast tour of the casino. It would include visit to server rooms and he wanted to allow players to see how everything looks like behind the scenes. Even showing how RTP is calculated and some really exclusive information related how online casinos operate.

First day it was fine, we`re good to go. Second day, he received a hold order from network provider so they could "contact" other casinos on the network and see if they are willing to share this information with the public. And of course on the third day RTG said "NO WAY" was the way majority said. It happened throughout several instead of three days but still you get the picture. Online casinos are not likely to show players any time soon how everything works just as a sign of a good will. Unless they are pressed hard this will not change.

 

[pokeraddict]

You do realize that when you play -EV games you're going to lose, right? Blaming the software or the casino isn't the answer. Online gambling is entertainment, PERIOD! The same goes for B&M. You aren't going to make a living playing casino games if there is any house edge. It sounds like you don't get that.

 

[thelawnet]

There is a big contrast between land-based casinos where you can see the cards being shuffled and drawn from the shoe and the online casinos where you don't and you are supposed to trust them to deal you a fair game.

The games are all designed to win for the house. If I shuffle cards in front of you but offer you 1:2 odds on a 1:1 shot, then that's not a fairer game than online gambling with 99.5% payback.

Online casinos are computerized and as such they will analyze your betting strategy and make strategic adjustments in anticipation to your moves.

Wrong.

This is not random to the extent that real shuffled cards are.

It would be non-random, true. But it doesn't happen, not with major casino software anyway.

With knowledge of how you bet and your bet amount before the cards are dealt, the result will be likely in favor of the online casino even though cards drawn will still meet the definition of "fair and random."

Example?

I do much better in land casinos using some of the same strategies I used online. I know of others who experienced the same thing.

Land casinos are much slower, you probably pay many fewer hands. With few hands played the house edge is not as significant as if you play for hours online, by which time you're almost certain to lose.

But I know there are those who would disagree with me. That's fine with me. I would just say look at what you are facing when gambling online: software that analyzes your strategy and the virtual cards, wheel or dice; optimizing software that favors the online casino while maintaining appearances of fairness.

Am I supposed to take your word on this, or do you have any evidence at all?

I've had enough of it. I'm quitting while way ahead.

I thought it wasn't fair. How come you are ahead?

If regulation comes in US, I'll be reviewing government auditors methodology and procedures of how they determine a fair online game.

For now, the reality is the online casino holds the cards, hidden from you. If land-based casinos did that, there would be far fewer land casinos. Think about it.

People play video poker and video blackjack quite happily in land casinos. If the table games aren't allowed, the machines do just fine.

 

[same_old]

I personally dont have any issues with Westlands initial post.

He is speaking from HIS OWN experience here and anyone that knows of westland knows he is a BJ player through and through.

The Gael Wind software was the same software whee he won $34,000 on BJ with only a $200 deposit.The caisno didnt want to pay him as they thought he was reading cards and or had kind of play that wasnt getting him to lose- either way the accusation was bullshit and backed up by the software provider who are the ones who ended up paying westland, not the casino.

I myself trust and believe his post here as he is an avid BJ player and would know these things.

West isnt the sort of person to make up stuf and come out with it- im sure it has taken him a while to come to this conclusion.

LOL- you want to get NASh involved here do you??, his BJ sessions are a lot worse than westlands so im sure he would have a lot more to say about this as well.

I know in the past NASH has had some issues with some casino's and his BJ play and he is one customer you do want playing with you. he is a whale of of a punter.

Please still come around here everynow and then Westland, your a good family boy with good values so please stick around at least.

 

[Westland Bowl]

.........Am I supposed to take your word on this, or do you have any evidence at all?

I'm offering my opinion based on years of playing online. I've won quite a fair amount using various strategies including those from Cipher. I was consistently winning with a few smaller losses. To show the "evidence", it would take demonstrating by my side play over a thousand hands to show repeated suspicious plays. To understand what I see requires you understand my strategy which incorporates speadsheets, tracking the results, money management and various betting strategies depending upon what the casino is doing. It would be too much to show in this forum. So it's just my opinion I'm offering. Perhaps I'll show how I won over $30,000 from Heroes Casino someday.

I thought it wasn't fair. How come you are ahead?

Blackjack IS quite beatable, provided you are using strategies that bets higher when the cards are flowing your way and bets lower when it's not. It is (WAS) easier to do this online when the minimum bet is only a $1. Including my wins from Heroes Casino, I'd say I'm ahead about $45,000 (all gone to paying off debts and getting necessities.)

People play video poker and video blackjack quite happily in land casinos. If the table games aren't allowed, the machines do just fine.

Video blackjack located within the land casino isn't the same as online casino blackjack. I've found video blackjack a little different than a regular real blackjack table but not too much. Perhaps the fact that you can complain about any perceived unfairness to the casino itself right there to casino management ensures that they make sure the video cards are random as much as possible. Online casinos are located far away and any perceived unfairness is considered to only exist in your mind.

 

[3mptyseat]

I would just say look at what you are facing when gambling online: software that analyzes your strategy and the virtual cards, wheel or dice; optimizing software that favors the online casino while maintaining appearances of fairness.

Is there any empirical evidence to support this? Anyone?

I will agree that when money is involved, very few people in an industry as 'wild west' as this one could maintain their integrity given options for illegitimate but guaranteed profit increases. So I support the OP claim that some casinos online are not fair. I know I have some stats a few places that are statistically anomalies if the RNG at the sites in question are indeed random... That being said, statistical anomalies happen all the time. And sometimes, events transpire that might be described as 'a million to one'; and then they are followed immed. by another such event. Variance is a wicked bitch!

I just wish IGT and the US govt would make a deal and wagerworks could enter this marketplace...

 

[takethemoney]

I'm up about $8500 at land based casinos this year. I don't want to keep repeating how many losing deposits I've had at RTG online casinos this year. I have zero wins there and anyone who has such an experience would eventually come to believe that the network of this software has my number and it's just not going to happen, no matter how many deposits. So, I have curtailed my online gaming and make 3 trips, on average, per month, to the Indian casino an hour away from me.

 

[silcnlayc]

pokeraddict:You do realize that when you play -EV games you're going to lose, right? Blaming the software or the casino isn't the answer. Online gambling is entertainment, PERIOD! The same goes for B&M. You aren't going to make a living playing casino games if there is any house edge. It sounds like you don't get that.

Since you state that :Online gambling is entertainment, PERIOD!...I will stand right there with my hand out every time you make a withdrawal if you make one at all anymore...because you are not playing to win anything...so why bother playing for real money or withdrawing and keeping any winnings that you stumble upon accidently when someone that plays to win is sitting right beside you?

Gamblers do not play for ENTERTAINMENT...that is a fallacy...a folklore...something to quote that has been repeated down the line so one can feel better about the "losses" incurred while "entertaining" themselves.... because there is a lot cheaper type of entertainment out there to be had...again, it is called denial..I know I play to win...I play to win big if I eve got that chance...the entertianment factor is the bonus if one does win...so...if you play for entertainment...you can do that for FREE! No complaining allowed...please remember this when you continue to lose...because you explicity said you play for entertainment ,yes, while others play to win I believe...

thelawnet:Am I supposed to take your word on this, or do you have any evidence at all?

But yet you ask us to take yours and others words without eveidence it is not happening? Can't have it both ways...Prove they are on the up and up....give us "proof" they are all legit....I mean, it must be easy since so many state they are...and nothing has changed as so many continue this old line....when many others KNOW things have changed..

So prove they haven't....can't, can you, or for that matter can anyone else...just as we cannot prove they have except for our EXPERIENCES of longtime playing for many many years...what do you have to prove against that?

No matter how it's painted...online casinos have changed ....for the worse....but it cannot be proven ...just as it cannot be proven they haven't changed...called stalemate....


.

 

[greasemonkey]

The problem with having cards fall based on "betting patterns" is that someone with a little intellect would take this "knowledge" and bet differently thus influencing the fall of the cards and taking advantage when possible. If it is not random then someone will exploit it unless the non randomness just makes you lose regardless, in which an audit would see this.

 

[jod5413]

Computer versus Live Dealer, animated games versus Real Cards being dealt, it's not that hard to figure out.

I would like to add also, first I am not an avid poker player, but have played it quite a bit in fun mode. This is my observation, they play exactly the same as slots.

By this I mean on multi line slots, the majority of wins are 3 matching symbols on a payline, classic slots, the bottom 3 wins on the paytable, poker, the lowest 3 wins on the paytable.

Just as with slots, poker plays exactly the same. same predictable nature as in all aspects of online gaming.


I dedicate my response to 4ofaKind.

I have absolutely no clue what you are posting here, Mavin. I guess I am too stupid to understand your post?

There is no convincing those that will not believe Jod. No matter what they show or say...it still remains what it is. Those that believe that casinos have gone to the wayside (I have believed this for a long time the same as Westland Bowl does now). I am just surprised how long it takes some to come to the realization that casinos are not what they were. I trusted completely for years...until the last few years...then I believed in the changes that the casino did were to the detriment of the player no matter how much "shoving" done my throat all the naysayers tried to do...and it was a lot...goes back quite a few years....and yet it all is coming to pass...players are starting to believe from their own experiences....

I firmly believe that payouts have changed. Only because of the ban here in the USA, which caused a ton of players to quit gambling. Less players mean less winners. It is a mathmatical conclusion I totally believe in.

Reality will bite many more in the butt and if it takes a longer time, then so be it...it is your dime you continue to give up so easily because you do not believe casinos would do "that"....So, I ask you, how does one convince others that do not believe and will not believe till it is too late? You can't, not till you have been bitten once too many times and when it comes down to it, it doesn't feel quite right "in you mind" anymore.

I am sorry to tell you this, Silc, but I am ahead overall over the past two years. Am I supposed to prove to others that I have won? Or maybe I am a shill for all the casinos on line?

Some of us long time players began to believe a lot earlier and decided a while back to back off when things changed in "our minds" and tried to give warnings to others of what was coming and what was to be....because we believed it was starting to be done (the changes) but no one can help you decide or believe because there is no so called proof...as so many demanded we show...everyone will believe what they want...no matter what is shown....

I only can prove my stats, which I know to be factual.

It is called denial.....sad truth is, casinos are here to make money, lots of it....and when one stops playing there is always the next player to clean out...casinos do not care...they are NOT your friends...they are here to make MONEY anyway they can...bottom line talks...end of story...

Obviously casinos are in existance to try to make money, and to beat the customer. I know they are NOT my friends, friends would not kick me in the ass the way online casinos can!

(Going back in my corner to watch, as it all unravels slowly as time will tell because I still believe that all casinos have gone to some extent, to the wayside....)

I surely hope not!.

Since you state that :Online gambling is entertainment, PERIOD!...I will stand right there with my hand out every time you make a withdrawal if you make one at all anymore...because you are not playing to win anything...so why bother playing for real money or withdrawing and keeping any winnings that you stumble upon accidently when someone that plays to win is sitting right beside you?

Gamblers do not play for ENTERTAINMENT...that is a fallacy...a folklore...something to quote that has been repeated down the line so one can feel better about the "losses" incurred while "entertaining" themselves.... because there is a lot cheaper type of entertainment out there to be had...again, it is called denial..I know I play to win...I play to win big if I eve got that chance...the entertianment factor is the bonus if one does win...so...if you play for entertainment...you can do that for FREE! No complaining allowed...please remember this when you continue to lose...because you explicity said you play for entertainment ,yes, while others play to win I believe... But yet you ask us to take yours and others words without eveidence it is not happening? Can't have it both ways...Prove they are on the up and up....give us "proof" they are all legit....I mean, it must be easy since so many state they are...and nothing has changed as so many continue this old line....when many others KNOW things have changed.

Sorry, Silc, I play to win and in the task of winning, I am entertained.

So prove they haven't....can't, can you, or for that matter can anyone else...just as we cannot prove they have except for our EXPERIENCES of longtime playing for many many years...what do you have to prove against that?

No matter how it's painted...online casinos have changed ....for the worse....but it cannot be proven ...just as it cannot be proven they haven't changed...called stalemate....

All I know is that casinos have been good to me.
.

 

[Mavin1]

I have absolutely no clue what you are posting here, Mavin. I guess I am too stupid to understand your post?

No, not stupid. Just my way of voicing my perspective of how I see it anymore. If I buy an computerized chess game and begin to play it, it will adjust how it plays against me based on how I play, to create a challenge, making my winning the match against the computer more difficult as it progresses. This is not to say I would never beat the computer chess game, but it will be increasingly harder.

If this is done in such simple electronic hand held games, then why would we believe it doesn't happen on a larger scale.

That's why I say computer vs live dealer, computer generated programming can do this, live dealers cannot.

In a B&M, if they have slots that are really hot, like this new one they had gotten at our local casino and had a whole row of them, you couldn't ever get one of those machines because they were always packed. Then one day, I had gone in and that row was empty, no one was playing them. People noticed a significant change and avoided those slots like the plague.

So the B&M has to make a decision, put it back to a fair rtp, get rid of the row of slots or leave them taking up valuable floor space and not making any or very little money.

Virtual casinos don't have to worry about any of this, so they can keep a dead machine for eternity as it will attract players thinking that maybe it has come full cycle and will payout. So in virtual space they will still make money on a dead machine/s.

I am glad for you that you are up on your play, but until you end up on the always negative side of the spectrum, you will never understand or agree with those of us that are always on the never ending losing streaks.

I remember Kakata stating in one of his posts, why do so many have long dry losing streaks, if things were truly random, wouldn't there be long winning streaks as well from time to time. Something like that, but it stuck with me.

Before MG migrated us, I had hit a nice little winning streak, then I was bonus and comp banned. After AussieDave helped to get me reinstated, it was rock bottom from then on.

Sure it's nice to have the convenience of playing at home in your underwear, but if it's in exchange for always losing, it's not a good trade off.

 

[Mirvel]

all casino's are crooked....

i can't talk over other software than microgaming.... but i can tell you this...
The random they use is not fair...
i talked more than once to live chat and the tech department over this...
and i get the same awnser over and over again.......
My question was....
how can i get 14 red cards after playing black 14 times(happends only with bigger amounts i play)
and the 15th time i pick red i get black?
not once or twice but for months in a row
Awnser:
i should not look at that matter mathematically.
Question: How should i look than?
Awnser: none given
I cant believe you people believe in all this nonsens
its not only what they do with the cards.........
How about scatters that apear and disapear
Or youre playing for a while and lost 100$ - 200$ but you keep on playing because u get lots of scatters (no free spins or bonus but lots of scatters)
when all of a sudden u get disconected gotta connect again and never see a scatter again...... or reel 3 and 4 all of a sudden stop before reel 1 and 2 and you never get a win or scatters again?
i asked again and this is what they said.......it is most likely that that happend because someone had a big win on the game you are playing.......
say what ?? hahahahahahha
Misleading and deception.......thats what it is......
ONLINE gambling cant be executed fair in the way they do it.... period
A fair system is much easyer to build than what microgaming does.....
(for those of you who would like to know how to build a honest system)
just ask me il be more than happy to explain)
leaves 1 question....... why do they do it like this?
Awnser: GREED.
and to make it look good they make sure there are always some winners....
MICROGAMING is based on deception.... nothing more than that... it looks great.... plays great....... and there the good stuff ends...
If you want some proof of this story just lookup what happend whit microgaming poker!!!!!!(UNIBET is a very good example) .
Its to bad it is what it is because i think microgaming has some of the coolest games u wil find on the net........ I hope another provider wil stand up with games like that...and than with a honest payout...

 

[jstrike]

Just a thought on Westland's first response, since I can't really dive into this completely right now...

I don't think it's possible that there's "no shoe". It might be on a continuous shuffle after every hand. But if there was literally no shoe, then it would happen eventually that seven aces of clubs would show up on the table at the same time. There has to be some kind of memory. Since that's true, the cards should always be coming out following a random distribution. One way you can check it is count for how many suited runs you see coming off each new deal, versus how many you should see. This is probably something nobody would think or care to rig in a blackjack game, so it should be a good indicator. There's about a 23.5% chance of two suited cards in a row coming off the top of a new single deck, and about a 5% chance of three of them. Within a couple hundred hands, this should give you a pretty good idea whether it's rigged or not.

 

[GrandMaster]

Online casinos are computerized and as such they will analyze your betting strategy and make strategic adjustments in anticipation to your moves. This is not random to the extent that real shuffled cards are. With knowledge of how you bet and your bet amount before the cards are dealt, the result will be likely in favor of the online casino even though cards drawn will still meet the definition of "fair and random."

Let's look at the evidence. I presume you have read about the latest betfair fiasco, which was not the first of its kind. Don't you think that if the casinos really had a sophisticated player strategy detection system, they would have noticed earlier that hundreds of players were covering all numbers in roulette? You can beat the imagined strategy detection system by flat betting or by using your own random number generator.

But I know there are those who would disagree with me. That's fine with me. I would just say look at what you are facing when gambling online: software that analyzes your strategy and the virtual cards, wheel or dice; optimizing software that favors the online casino while maintaining appearances of fairness.

Would you elaborate? How could a casino cheat systematically while making it undetectable so that the results would pass any statistical analysis?

 

[ksech]

Errr, can someone please "dummy-up" Mirvel's post for me?
*I think I'm cross-eyed now...*

 

[silcnlayc]

Jod : Sorry, Silc, I play to win and in the task of winning, I am entertained.

I am glad to see someone else besides me owns up to playing to win and not just for pure "entertinment" as many claim....

.

 

[gloria460]

Why even play online casinos anymore? It took me forever to just get deposits in and it's not worth it. qt is now grayed out in my deposit options and no visa transactions are going thru unless you play in mcg and then it states the amount in euros so I'm going to be hit with all kinds of fees.

I got one casino left and I can't deposit today. I'm cleaning the house and hitting up hard rock...all this back and forth really proves nothing. Half believe it's fair and half doesn't.

I do believe they've changed and not for the better.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Let's look at the evidence. I presume you have read about the latest betfair fiasco, which was not the first of its kind. Don't you think that if the casinos really had a sophisticated player strategy detection system, they would have noticed earlier that hundreds of players were covering all numbers in roulette? You can beat the imagined strategy detection system by flat betting or by using your own random number generator.

Would you elaborate? How could a casino cheat systematically while making it undetectable so that the results would pass any statistical analysis?

I haven't read anything about the Betfair fiasco so I really can't comment on that in regards to what I'm saying.

So what kind of evidence would be satisfactory to you?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Why even play online casinos anymore? It took me forever to just get deposits in and it's not worth it. qt is now grayed out in my deposit options and no visa transactions are going thru unless you play in mcg and then it states the amount in euros so I'm going to be hit with all kinds of fees.

I got one casino left and I can't deposit today. I'm cleaning the house and hitting up hard rock...all this back and forth really proves nothing. 90% believe it's fair and the other half doesn't.

I do believe they've changed and not for the better.

FIFY

 

[Mirvel]

Would you elaborate? How could a casino cheat systematically while making it undetectable so that the results would pass any statistical analysis?

as a so called dummy i got a question...
what do you want to detect trough statistical analysis, algorithm checks w/e..... if you dont know what your looking for?
as long as random apears as random there is nothing to look for....
thats the magic of "random"
its 10 million times easyer to create a random generator in a controlled environment that wil do w/e i want, than it is to detect that it cheats.... in fact it is impossible to prove (without a doubt) if they cheat or not if you dont analyze the functions that creates the output also........
and they dont analyze that......

 

[ksech]

as a so called dummy i got a question...
...

I wasn't referring to you as a dummy, I was calling myself a dummy...
Your posts are difficult for me to read. I'm sure there is a really important message you are trying to impart, but your posting style is hard on my eyes. No insult was intended.

 

[silcnlayc]

Originally Posted by gloria460
Why even play online casinos anymore? It took me forever to just get deposits in and it's not worth it. qt is now grayed out in my deposit options and no visa transactions are going thru unless you play in mcg and then it states the amount in euros so I'm going to be hit with all kinds of fees.

I got one casino left and I can't deposit today. I'm cleaning the house and hitting up hard rock...all this back and forth really proves nothing. 90% believe it's fair and the other half doesn't.
I do believe they've changed and not for the better.

NASHVEGAS: FIFY

Got me Gloria! If Nash didn't point that out...laffin to hard to respond to my ill reading.....too funny guys! Thanks for the giggle!

.

 

[GrandMaster]

I haven't read anything about the Betfair fiasco so I really can't comment on that in regards to what I'm saying.

So what kind of evidence would be satisfactory to you?

See

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for an example.

 

[Seventh777]

The only strategy B.J. software needs is - The banker always shows 10 and deals you 12-16 with a guaranteed hit card of 10-9-8-7-6 thus busting you by 1, I think if casino software was coded for a players M.O. it would be structured around slots and to encourage more deposits.

Just my $2 .

 

[Westland Bowl]

I haven't read anything about the Betfair fiasco so I really can't comment on that in regards to what I'm saying.

So what kind of evidence would be satisfactory to you?

See

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

for an example.

Wow! Well, I can't quite put that much time and effort into it, especially after I've already made up my mind based on my actual play.

I'll add this though (even though I don't have proof): I believe that flat-bettors, industry affliates and those who do not approach blackjack (or any other games) in a systematic way, generally receive a more random game than those who have won money and/or use a betting strategy. I believe audits generally test casino software through flat-betting rather than test the system using any progression or other strategies. If you are rated as an advantage player, you would get a game that is manipulated. Just my opinion and I'm taking my money elsewhere.

 

[LinkinFart]

Let's look at the evidence. I presume you have read about the latest betfair fiasco, which was not the first of its kind. Don't you think that if the casinos really had a sophisticated player strategy detection system, they would have noticed earlier that hundreds of players were covering all numbers in roulette? You can beat the imagined strategy detection system by flat betting or by using your own random number generator.

Why would any online casino try to manipulate a game when someone is using illegal strategy???

btw Westland, smartest move You could make. Wanted to say this in the first post but I forgot and it would get lost. I made similar move but it was online poker in my case and it was the best thing I did in a long time. Good luck, and now its really luck.

 

[Nate]

There is a big contrast between land-based casinos where you can see the cards being shuffled and drawn from the shoe and the online casinos where you don't and you are supposed to trust them to deal you a fair game.

Online casinos are computerized and as such they will analyze your betting strategy and make strategic adjustments in anticipation to your moves. This is not random to the extent that real shuffled cards are. With knowledge of how you bet and your bet amount before the cards are dealt, the result will be likely in favor of the online casino even though cards drawn will still meet the definition of "fair and random."

I do much better in land casinos using some of the same strategies I used online. I know of others who experienced the same thing.

But I know there are those who would disagree with me. That's fine with me. I would just say look at what you are facing when gambling online: software that analyzes your strategy and the virtual cards, wheel or dice; optimizing software that favors the online casino while maintaining appearances of fairness.

I've had enough of it. I'm quitting while way ahead. If regulation comes in US, I'll be reviewing government auditors methodology and procedures of how they determine a fair online game.

For now, the reality is the online casino holds the cards, hidden from you. If land-based casinos did that, there would be far fewer land casinos. Think about it.

P.S. I believe the closest fair gambling software is Galewind Software that powers Pinnacle Sportsbook. But Pinnacle is not available to US players.

There is a simple Philosophy behind this - All Roulette, Blackjack and Poker games (Irrelevant if Video or Table) are RTP driven.

You will NEVER get a GENUINELY RANDOM game as long as the RTP plays a part. Think of your hands as a bunch of predetermined cards that form part of a set amount of combinations. The cycle must complete itself in order to get to the RTP. Your combination of cards are randomly drawn from the set amount of combinations - Just like a Sot Machine...

Does this fall into the definition of Random - Yes

Does this fall into the definition of Truly Randomly Shuffled Cards - NO.

Nate

 

[Westland Bowl]

There is a simple Philosophy behind this - All Roulette, Blackjack and Poker games (Irrelevant if Video or Table) are RTP driven.

You will NEVER get a GENUINELY RANDOM game as long as the RTP plays a part. Think of your hands as a bunch of predetermined cards that form part of a set amount of combinations. The cycle must complete itself in order to get to the RTP. Your combination of cards are randomly drawn from the set amount of combinations - Just like a Sot Machine...

Does this fall into the definition of Random - Yes

Does this fall into the definition of Truly Randomly Shuffled Cards - NO.

Nate

Oh, yes! SLOTJACK! How could I've forgotten?

 

[GrandMaster]

You will NEVER get a GENUINELY RANDOM game as long as the RTP plays a part. Think of your hands as a bunch of predetermined cards that form part of a set amount of combinations. The cycle must complete itself in order to get to the RTP.

There is no cycle. If you roll a fair die many time, the proportion that each number occurs will tend to 1/6. The same thing will happen if you generate random integers from 1 to 6 with a good random number generator. Cheating is not required, the Law of large numbers will take care of everything.

 

[GrandMaster]

Why would any online casino try to manipulate a game when someone is using illegal strategy???

Not to manipulate, but to notice what's happening. It must be a lot easier to notice that a lot of people are playing with a bonus and covering every number in roulette, than to identify what strategy a player is using (if any), then to guess his next move and to generate results that will cause him lose but which do not appear to deviate from a fair game significantly.

 

[LinkinFart]

Not to manipulate, but to notice what's happening. It must be a lot easier to notice that a lot of people are playing with a bonus and covering every number in roulette, than to identify what strategy a player is using (if any), then to guess his next move and to generate results that will cause him lose but which do not appear to deviate from a fair game significantly.

Of course it is but whats the point in wasting more time (processor time) on a player that cant cashout. Maybe I`m missing what You`re trying to say, from my perspective You`re only stating the obvious, its easier to detect bonus abuse than to identify betting strategy.