Illogical ID requests

[Jasminebed]

If players who take bonuses, play them according to the terms as SET BY THE CASINO are such "abusers" and "cheats", why do casinos even offer them?

Are we abusing the casino if we don't play every last cent we have in our accounts for the privilege of spinning the wheels for their "entertainment value"?

Most bonus terms and conditions forbid the making of a single large bet on a low risk game, so that kind of bonus advantage play is no longer possible. Multiiple accounts to receive bonuses multiple times are clearly not allowed, and thus would fairly be deemed fraudulent.

Other than that, we are customers "using" bonuses, not "abusing" them.

Requests for ID to prevent multiple accounts and fake IDs are IMO reasonable, and most players can comply. If, like myself, you don't have a driver's licence or passport, ask the casino before depositing about what ID they will consider acceptable.

BTW, because my government issued photo ID does not have an address on it I have been asked for a photo of me holding it.

 

[Rusty]

BTW, because my government issued photo ID does not have an address on it I have been asked for a photo of me holding it.

How does that verify your address?

 

[vinylweatherman]

BTW, because my government issued photo ID does not have an address on it I have been asked for a photo of me holding it.

How does that verify your address?

It does not, but it gives an opportunity to verify the photo (of holding ID) in the same way that could be done if this were a person to person encounter in the real world. If the ID was fake, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to produce a photo of oneself holding it.

It looks more and more as though casinos are NOT telling the truth about exactly WHY they are asking for all these documents. Casinos also believe in the myth that there is a "standard person", who has a car, and probably has foreign holidays. If you are not of this standard, then some seem to assume that you are "high risk" by default, even though not driving or travelling has nothing to do with how honest you are, and verification of honesty, after all, is what is behind all this ID checking.

If they are willing to accept photos of players holding documents, then why is this not readily available for players who have no official photo ID (it has been suggested in a small minority of cases, but this is far from industry wide acceptance).

One might ask why players do not check beforehand. Simple, terms and conditions are often rather vague, and even if players read every word, often only the vague statement "documents will be required" is present, and surely players have the right to expect that the documents their governments have already issued to them should suffice. If the casino requires a narrower definition of an acceptable document, they should be specific, and NOT have this tucked away in a load of legalese, which players often stop reading rather than reach for the dictionary.

Experienced players should remember when THEY were new. We (experienced players) now know what documents to have lined up & ready to go as JPEG, but NEW players have probably never before encountered an online business who seems to have a higher standard of ID verification than their own governments seem to have.

There is a strong belief that some casinos DO use these ID checks as a means of stalling, or even denying payment. Since the reasoning behind all of this is so secretive, it is easy for a player who KNOWS FULL WELL they are genuine to believe that any casino that jerks them around over ID checks is doing so with malice.

Fraudsters also KNOW FULL WELL that they are NOT genuine, and are much more well versed in faking it, and expect a number of "busts" from online casinos, and are hurt FAR less than genuine players by any ID verification schemes that catch too many "Dolphins" because they are not properly targeted.

 

[bernynhel]

BTW, because my government issued photo ID does not have an address on it I have been asked for a photo of me holding it.

How does that verify your address?

You could have the picture taken of you standing in front of your house where your house or building number is visible with your ID in one hand, your key inserted in the lock and opening the front door with the other hand and todays newspaper, clearly displaying the day's date in the other hand! That should satisfy them!

 

[vinylweatherman]

You could have the picture taken of you standing in front of your house where your house or building number is visible with your ID in one hand, your key inserted in the lock and opening the front door with the other hand and todays newspaper, clearly displaying the day's date in the other hand! That should satisfy them!

Nope - they would claim the JPEG was too big

 

[bernynhel]

Nope - they would claim the JPEG was too big

The joke was SPOSED to be the hand count.

 

[CasinoMac]

Calm Down

First of all lets just say I'm thankful I actually got some nice play from a RTG Casino and I could make a cashout request.
24 Hours after my request I received this email;

This email is to inform you that we will require the following documents in order to process your cash-out request:



1. Clear copies of a valid photo ID (Driver License or Passport).

2. Clear copy of any utility bill (Bank Statement, Water or Light Bill, Etc.).

3. Credit Card Agreement Form for VISA # xxxx (last four digits) attached to this message.

4. Clear copies for your VISA # Xxxxx - Both sides with signed back, for your own security. You can hide/cover the three security numbers on the back side of your card. We need to verify only the first 6 and last 4 digits on the front of the card.



This documentation will be required in order to process your withdrawal request.

Now as far as I understand it a valid Passport is proof of ID.
If it is not then why request it as proof?

OK. so lets just say the Casino is paranoid for no good reason and include a Utility bill, overkill but hey lets play their game.

Whats that you want me to fill out and sign a credit card agreement form too?

Still not enough?
You want clear copies of my VISA card even though I deposited with Moneybookers?

What a load of Bull shit.
Unless someone can explain why all this is necessary when other Casinos manage just fine with either no ID at all or Passport.

As far as I can see there is One reason and One reason alone to make such over the top requests for ID.
They hope that at least some people rather than go to the trouble of downloading their agreement form,printing it out, filling it in, digging out their passport and a Utility bill , scanning them both, taking their credit card and photocopying the front and back or taking photos and uploading them to their PC and then attaching all these in an email and sending them to officiouspratsRus.com will just say screw it and reverse their withdrawal in the hope of winning something that is actually worth all the hassle this Casino wants to put their new customers through.

What if you do not have photo ID?
More likely what if you do not have a printer or scanner?

Even more hassle.

I don't know about you lot but it really winds me up

Let me answear a couple of your questions here,

You say that you deposit with moneybookers and they are asking for our credit card documents right?

They are not asking for your credit card document's, what happen is that you have received an automated email asking for some verification documents. You don't have to send them your cc if you didn't deposit with your cc.

What if you do not have photo ID?

If you do not have a Photo ID you should not register to any online casino.

More likely what if you do not have a printer or scanner?

You can always visit an internet cafe to print any documents you want for a cheap price, otherwise you can buy a scanner.

My advice is to "CALM DOWN" your too aggresive, just scan the documents and send them if you want your winnings. If you do not like their TOS do not play with them.

Good Luck

 

[thelawnet]

How's this for excessive?

I just signed up at Red Flush. Won 200 on the free play. Deposited 50 with a debit card, supposedly this should result in the 200 being added into my account.

Haven't cashed out, played, or had the bonus added to my account, and I get the following email:

Thank you for your continued support at Red Flush Casino.

We are currently processing a routine security check and we need the following information from you in order for us to look into your details further.

Please understand that the strictest controls are required in this industry in order to manage and protect our players interests.

We would really appreciate it if you could forward the following information to us. You are welcome to either scan or e-mail us on support@redflush.eu

The information that we require is:

? Full Name
? Full Residential Address
? All Telephone Numbers
? Copy of recent Utility/ Telephone bill
? Copy of picture ID or drivers license
? Front and back of Credit Card used for deposits (we only need to see the first and last 4 digits of
the card number, please also block the 3 digits at the back of the card)

If you are aware that you have used someone elses details, e.g. address, telephone number or computer, please explain to us the relationship you have with the person.

Once these have been received, and satisfactorily reviewed, we will advise you accordingly.
We thank you in advance for your understanding on this matter.
Please feel free to Contact Us should you require any further assistance.

 

[vinylweatherman]

How's this for excessive?

I just signed up at Red Flush. Won 200 on the free play. Deposited 50 with a debit card, supposedly this should result in the 200 being added into my account.

Haven't cashed out, played, or had the bonus added to my account, and I get the following email:

?Full Name
? Full Residential Address

They have this already, what they want is VERIFICATION - they ask for this later. They SHOULD simply ask for a reference, such as your casino account number & name, to tie the documents to you as a player.

? All Telephone Numbers

Apart from the one registered, or a contact number (landline preferrably) if none registered in the software, your other numbers are NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. They have no legitimate use for them, but COULD end up passing them on with the result you get "phone spammed" to every number you have.

Even CASINOS THEMSELVES do this, give them your work number, and some WILL call you at work. This is a privacy issue, you may NOT want your boss or colleagues dealing with a call from your casino in your absence. In some cases, the revelation may even cost you the job!! (USA, and working in certain professions where your integrity is key, for example).

? Copy of recent Utility/ Telephone bill

This is routine, and how they verify that you have access to the address on file.

? Copy of picture ID or drivers license

This is your ID, but why do they necessarily need a photo, surely ANY document ISSUED BY GOVERNMENT has the same standing, such as the UK driving license that many people still have, the old paper only version.

? Front and back of Credit Card used for deposits (we only need to see the first and last 4 digits of
the card number, please also block the 3 digits at the back of the card)

This shows you possess the card used to deposit (or have nicked it long enough to take a photo of it)

If you are aware that you have used someone elses details, e.g. address, telephone number or computer, please explain to us the relationship you have with the person.

This is good, even though it sounds excessive, MANY players seem to fall into this trap thinking it OK, so an opportunity to volunteer this information is best served up now, rather than when used to confiscate a withdrawal.

Households often hold more than one adult, and these adults may not even know that each other play, let alone at which casinos. Even when they do, often they don't understand that the waffle about IP addresses etc means simply that not more than one player per postal address may register to play there (unless by prior agreement).

It looks, and in a couple of places is, excessive. The email needs to be redesigned so that they only ask for the NECESSARY information relevant to the operation of the account, and in verifying you are not using a false identity to play, or a stolen means of deposit.

I have registered at Red Flush, and as far as I am concerned, they are happy with the usual set of documentation, they just don't put it well in the email.

Another consideration is that taken literally, you will send back an EXTREMELY risky reply, including all that info in the text, as well as in the image files attached. If this fell into the hands of a criminal, it would be ID theft opportunity in a neat package. It is bad enough having the information in the images, and trying to make the text look "innocent" enough not to be drawing attention to what the images contain, so that only the recipient knows what is expected to be in them.

It is more than about time that sending images back via email (or faxing them) was a thing of the past. Casino software, or the websites, should have a secure section where, once logged into your account, you can upload this kind of information to a secure server at their end - chance of intercept by the wrong person virtually zero.

Banks now mostly have secure messaging from within the secure (https) server once logged into your account, so there IS something pretty damn risky about sending this kind of information via email.

Microgaming casinos ALSO HAVE THIS FEATURE!"!!!! why the hell aren't casinos using it!!!!!!!

It is possible to send a message to support from the lobby, and I am sure it is possible for the operator to configure this to allow attachments. While this goes to front line support, it is STILL more secure than email, and less likely to get lost.

Given the number of times I have seen players post about sending documents, only for the casinos to repeately ask for it to be resent because it has been "lost" (what this actually means is the WRONG PERSON has it - but can't be arsed to pass it on, or it has simply been dumped somewhere on the server, with no guarantee it is secure), email is a pretty UNRELIABLE method of sending documents, a bit like sending cash in the post.

 

[KasinoKing]

Also what does it say for Rusty's integrity to open accounts at many casinos, cash out and then close the account? Seems to be a pattern of abusing bonuses... perhaps casino groups are onto him and that's why documents are requested of him so often...

IMO there is no such thing as bonus abuse - only abuse of players by casinos.
The casinos write the T&C's for their bonuses; if there is some 'loop-hole' players can use to their advantage, that is clearly the casino's fault for not getting their terms watertight.
If a player plays a game or with a pattern expressly restricted in the T&C's (either by accident or deliberately) then the casino is within it's rights to deny bonus + winnings and ban the player from the casino or future bonuses as they see fit.

Sorry for the slight derail.
KK

 

[thelawnet]

I have registered at Red Flush, and as far as I am concerned, they are happy with the usual set of documentation, they just don't put it well in the email.

I sent them all the crap they asked for, the next thing is they called me today using the classic 'Please give me all your personal information in order for me to verify who you are' line.

Excessive.

 

[Rusty]

Let me answear a couple of your questions here,

You say that you deposit with moneybookers and they are asking for our credit card documents right?

They are not asking for your credit card document's, what happen is that you have received an automated email asking for some verification documents. You don't have to send them your cc if you didn't deposit with your cc.

What if you do not have photo ID?

If you do not have a Photo ID you should not register to any online casino.

More likely what if you do not have a printer or scanner?

You can always visit an internet cafe to print any documents you want for a cheap price, otherwise you can buy a scanner.

My advice is to "CALM DOWN" your too aggresive, just scan the documents and send them if you want your winnings. If you do not like their TOS do not play with them.

Good Luck

Are you from Liverpool by any chance?

Many times it is not stipulated in the terms and conditions or made at all clear that so much documentation will be required to make a cashout.
You can make as many deposits as you want without having to engage in this nonsense so how does that fit with the fraud protection line?
Sure customers can run around all over Town and make various purchases in order to facilitate these increasingly invasive and excessive requests but that does not make it right.

There will now follow a party political broadcast for the angry party;

I will calm down just as soon as the industry gets its house in order, that may be some time, in the meanwhile you are welcome to continue to believe that these types of request are reasonable and necessary or maybe you might like to get a little passion yourself, you never know it may actually help you fight wrongs and injustices instead of making bleeting noises.

I like being angry.

That was a broadcast on behalf of the angry party.

We now return you to our normal schedule of general apathy and passivity.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I sent them all the crap they asked for, the next thing is they called me today using the classic 'Please give me all your personal information in order for me to verify who you are' line.

Excessive.

If I am reading it right - this is utter bullshit.

REPUTABLE industries will contact customers in a way that enables them to protect themselves against "phishing".

Phishing is where an entity contacts YOU, and requests that you give them a load of personal details in order to verify yourself to them, usually accompanied by a sense of urgency, such as imminent financial loss (or lack of gain) if you do not comply immediately.

Just because Red Flush know who THEY are does NOT excuse them from bypassing this process.

IF they call YOU, they must FIRST verify THEMSELVES to YOU as being Red Flush, BEFORE they can reasonably expect YOU to divulge any information.

ANYONE can make contact out of the blue, and claim to be from some entity you do business with. It works due to COINCIDENCE, where it just happens that the phisher is pretending to be YOUR bank, for example, which lends credibility to their demands.

A defence of this method was made before, and by the industry, that if a player really HAS an account at casino X, they would happily comply with requests made over the phone from them.
This argument is ballcocks, since again this is EXACTLY how people get fooled by Phishing. Example, you have an account at Lloyds bank, and you receive a communication from Lloyds customer service, but first they say that for security reasons, you have to proceed through security clearance. At this point, this could be the bank, but it could be a phishing attempt, and since you ARE with that bank, you m ight just give your details to proceed to the next step. If this next step has you smelling a rat, IT IS TOO LATE - they are in!!!!

To overcome this, it is recommended that a customer make contact INDEPENDENTLY from any email or phone call, perhaps by dialling out themselves, or directly visiting the website and using the contact details there.

One of the players involved in the Rushmore investigation reported having a phone call from one of their investigators. He got this out of the blue, but the investigators refused to give THEIR credentials, but expected the player to answer questions about himself to a complete stranger on the other end of the phone. To comply with this at face value is STUPID, since this again is how people fall victim to crime, such as ID theft.

ANY business contacting a customer has to be prepared to offer a way for the customer to authenticate the caller BEFORE they can reasonably expect the customer to comply with the requests made.

Let me use the Rushmore example again to illustrate the danger further.

Suppose I want to try a little "ripping off" myself. I hear that there is this big investigation going on of players from 3 countries who have played at Rushmore casino. Little information is being released, but the process seems to be dragging out.
I set up a "black hat" call centre, and use a dialler to call every single number in the country being investigated first, and because of the nature of the investigation, I can simply "blag" my way. I will hit many who will know the call is a scam, since the recipients would NOT be expecting such an investigation. However, those players who ARE awaiting payment would be easy prey. My "black hat" staff would claim they were unable to say who they were (just as the genuine investigators were doing), but would ask similar vague questions. A player waiting to be paid could easily assume my "black hat" call was from the genuine article, and would comply with pretty much every verification request. Once they had divulged enough, they would be assured that all was well, and that they would be hearing soon. This would leave breathing space to use the information before the genuine investigators made contact, and thr scam revealed.
email spam works in a similar way, on coincidence that the recipient actually has a relationship with the business in question, and thus sees no problem in complying with the requests. The hit rate for this coincidence it tiny, just as tiny as calling the few players actually awaiting payment out of the entire set of phone numbers for the country under investigation.

Phone "phishing" is FACT - it has been tried on ME on several occasions, usually in the form of a scam, where the scammer pretends to be representing a business, or government department scheme, when they are no such thing. These sales calls will sometimes move straight on to the caller asking me for my details, saying they must have these before they can fully tell me what they are offering.

 

[thelawnet]

If I am reading it right - this is utter bullshit.

REPUTABLE industries will contact customers in a way that enables them to protect themselves against "phishing".

Phishing is where an entity contacts YOU, and requests that you give them a load of personal details in order to verify yourself to them, usually accompanied by a sense of urgency, such as imminent financial loss (or lack of gain) if you do not comply immediately.

Just because Red Flush know who THEY are does NOT excuse them from bypassing this process.

Well yeah it is a piss take actually. I've posted on this thread, so people know I've just signed up, somebody could find out my phone number and do this quite easily.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well yeah it is a piss take actually. I've posted on this thread, so people know I've just signed up, somebody could find out my phone number and do this quite easily.

Quite, and they don't even have to do that. They can use a computer now to dial every possible number combination for a given town, or even country. Whatever scam they have dreamed up, they are sure to hit on some "coincidence" customers, whom they can then push as far as they can get away with.
These phishing scams often ride on the back of a genuine concern, such as a big news item about a bank having a security leak. The phishers soon start sending out loads of bogus requests to customers telling them that to protect themselves from this leak they KNOW happened because it was on the news, they must update their login details right now this minute, with a link conveniently provided.
The phone version works the same way, call everyone in a region affected by some general scare, and pick off the coincidence customers who ARE in the frame for being affected.

In my example for Rushmore above, a scammer might deduce that a considerable number of players are "pending", since the affair has dragged on for 3 months, and think it worth while trying it on. They would be after personal details, NOT the money, which is why people would fall for it. The personal details would end up being used in a later fraud, maybe even one at another casino.

Whilst there are SUPPOSED to be laws to make phishing by phone far more difficult than by "lawless" internet means, a number of complaints I have made have shown the regulations here in the UK are rather toothless, since all the scammer has to do is cloak their incoming phone number, or call from an offshore location, since in order to complain, you have to identify the caller, AND the call mush have come from within the UK, or at least the EU.
Currently, I am finding many of these calls come to me from Poland and the USA, (Poland a fairly recent addition to the EU), but this is enough to sidestep the UK "do not call" regulations - even if I identify the caller.

 

[zebedy]

does anyone know if casino's have access or can gain access to the DVLC or passport issuing centers, because that it the only logical explanation why they would want a PHOTO id, that i can think of, so they can compare the two
just a thought

 

[zebedy]

What if you do not have photo ID?
If you do not have a Photo ID you should not register to any online casino.
Good Luck

a bit excessive,
just get whatever documents you have verified before you deposit, get them to confirm in writing that you will have no problems withdrawing if you should win,and keep the confirmation emal they send,just in case they make problems later on,

i dont have photo ID, but since i have been doing this i havent run into any problems

 

[thelawnet]

does anyone know if casino's have access or can gain access to the DVLC or passport issuing centers, because that it the only logical explanation why they would want a PHOTO id, that i can think of, so they can compare the two
just a thought

Of course they don't and of course they can't.

 

[vinylweatherman]

a bit excessive,
just get whatever documents you have verified before you deposit, get them to confirm in writing that you will have no problems withdrawing if you should win,and keep the confirmation emal they send,just in case they make problems later on,

i dont have photo ID, but since i have been doing this i havent run into any problems

Not so, there has already been a complaint from one player who got documents OKed when they signed up, but after quite some time of loyal custom, the casino reneged, and insisted on documents the player didn't have. They were not even swayed by the proof, saying they could change requirements at any time they liked (where have we heard this before)

Unfortunately, the only SAFE way is to NOT PLAY unless you CAN get either a photo driving license, or a passport.
For most recreational players, this is a non-starter, they are better off forgetting about it. Only for players who like to play with larger amounts, will it be worth the effort and expense of applying for a passport merely to satisfy online casinos who are too lazy (or tight) to use what the rest of the business world uses to vet customers, which is the electoral roll (through a credit reference agency ID check service), and technology such as "Secured by VISA" to prevent fraudulent use of credit and debit cards.

The main UK credit reference agencies don't just keep records of credit history, they also offer businesses a service by which they can verify the identity of a customer. This service is good enough for businesses who, if they get it wrong, stand to lose a fortune, yet casino choose to rely on outdated verification methods, and BECAUSE the methods are so prone to fraud, they catch SO MANY LEGIT PLAYERS because of spurious "false positives".

In some parts of the world, we regularly see casinos suggesting players send them a document that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST, and then argue the toss when players try to send them the documents that DO exist, because the casino interprets the refusal as not being because the document does not exist, but because the player has something to hide & won't send it.