Grosvenor Casino and Coral now using lower RTP settings

[colinsunderland]

Just a heads up, both these (and presumably Ladbrokes) are using the lower RTP settings on Red Tiger and Play N Go (only Coral have PnG)
Play N Go at Coral are now set to the 94% settings, last week they were on 96.

 

[mack341]

Just a heads up, both these (and presumably Ladbrokes) are using the lower RTP settings on Red Tiger and Play N Go (only Coral have PnG)
Play N Go at Coral are now set to the 94% settings, last week they were on 96.

I never thought one of the big bookie groups would need to offer games with reduced rtp.

At this rate playtech slots will start to look attractive they must be hoping loads of players don't cotton on for a few months...

I haven't played a slot for 5 weeks now after using the TAB option but this type of rtp cut, if it becomes widespread, will push me to make it more of a permanent break.

Edit: A physical casino's overheads are probably greater than 4% compared to online, [on the basis they offer 90% rtp slots] so it looks like the online sector is starting to feel they can/need to extract the michael.

 

[shadow123]

Havent checked Ladbrokes yet but they will have dropped them for sure
Bit shit as I use them rather than VS on play n go and tiger.
Seriously think 2020 is the year I pack up online gaming for good,
The UKGC has done nothing positive for me,removing feature buys has spoilt most
of the best games, £2 max stakes seems to be on the cards, increased taxes are being
paid for by the players indirectly and the gov is going to review the 2005 gaming act
which does not bode well.
At least I had the chance to enjoy the times when casinos actually valued players and didnt have
all the crappy regulaions to worry about.

 

[shadow123]

Just checked Ladbrokes and cant see any RTP changes on Red tiger yet but cant imagine they wont drop them in line with Corals when they get time

 

[bamberfishcake]

Trada are also

Edit: FYI, checked through Nov/Dec. I was going to wait until i had checked a few more before showing but while its being discussed heres what i have so far.....

Red Tigers are listed out of screenshot but you can see the trend. Ill compile something a bit more friendly and was thinking of updating a thread monthly.

 

[shadow123]

Would be very useful if you could, we need some guidence badly, Red Tiger RTP,s are all over the place

 

[bamberfishcake]

Would be very useful if you could, we need some guidence badly, Red Tiger RTP,s are all over the place

Its the same 3 casinos with lower.......

In the thread maybe the community could help by listing what they spot and we will add it to the sheet. Looks like @colinsunderland is on the case already.

This really is a no no for me the more and more i think about it but we do have the power as consumers to influence with our spend.

Edit: This is only for UK but happy to start another sheet for other jurisdictions if people can feed the info.

 

[Oscar Arnhem]

Trada are also

Edit: FYI, checked through Nov/Dec. I was going to wait until i had checked a few more before showing but while its being discussed heres what i have so far.....

View attachment 120540

Red Tigers are listed out of screenshot but you can see the trend. Ill compile something a bit more friendly and was thinking of updating a thread monthly.

WTF,@TradaCasino , BOOK OF DEAD 91.25%???

 

[dunover]

The beer continues to be watered down......

 

[Mr_Slot5]

In my opinion, it should be regulation that all versions of a particular slot should be constructed at one RTP and one RTP only. No ifs, no buts. Further to this it should be mandatory to flash the RTP up on the loading screen when opening a slot.

The fact that a casino can seemingly switch willy nilly between RTP versions without saying a Dickie bird is, quite frankly, disgusting behaviour.

 

[thr0b]

In my opinion, it should be regulation that all versions of a particular slot should be constructed at one RTP and one RTP only. No ifs, no buts. Further to this it should be mandatory to flash the RTP up on the loading screen when opening a slot.

Of course, you do that and you get a couple of results. They either all fix at the lowest percentage the operators want, or the operators close operations in the U.K.

It’d probably be a combination of the two if they did that.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Of course, you do that and you get a couple of results. They either all fix at the lowest percentage the operators want, or the operators close operations in the U.K.

It’d probably be a combination of the two if they did that.

It should be regulation full stop, and not just in the UK.

I'm sorry but the more people just roll over and go 'ahhh well it is what it is', the more you get the piss taken out of you.

I've worked in businesses long enough to know that these changes they say are 'necessary' actually just boil down to greed.

I genuinely can't believe how passive the majority of people are about being majorly shafted. Yet very often the same people who'll kick off about the petrol pumps going over a penny or there being a 10p discrepancy on their shopping receipt.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Exactly what I predicted a few weeks ago, sadly!

@bamberfishcake William Hill has most Red Tiger slots at 94.xx%, which includes the jackpots where applicable. The RTP portion for the jackpot varies between 0.49 to 3% based on what seed value the operator is choosing.

As I mentioned, I see us heading to a 93 - 94% bracket within 1 to 2 years, and that across the board and that only if we are "lucky" enough not to be struck with larger decreases.

And it won't matter to 99% of the players. I can't explain in any other way the huge increases in active players Aspire Global had in the first 9 months of 2019 and that with 91.25% RTP for favourites like BoD. We forum nerds like here on CM or other places are a tiny minority compared to the overall numbers. I doubt that we could cause any of the developers or casino operators to even raise just an eyebrow.

 

[Harry_BKK]

It should be regulation full stop, and not just in the UK.

I'm sorry but the more people just roll over and go 'ahhh well it is what it is', the more you get the piss taken out of you.

I've worked in businesses long enough to know that these changes they say are 'necessary' actually just boil down to greed.

I genuinely can't believe how passive the majority of people are about being majorly shafted. Yet very often the same people who'll kick off about the petrol pumps going over a penny or there being a 10p discrepancy on their shopping receipt.

The UK has it regulated. Minimum is 90% RTP. As long as it is certified, operators can use anything they want and they don't even have to announce it officially. They simply need to have it in the game rules, that's all!

 

[myke35]

Sadly seems to be the way things are going now & it's generally a silent rollout. More profit for the casino less playtime for the player.

 

[bamberfishcake]

We forum nerds like here on CM or other places are a tiny minority compared to the overall numbers.

I agree. It might be pie in the sky but i was hoping a thread named 'What casinos have the highest RTP UK?' might start appearing in a few searches and raise awareness.

In any case, i just check each time i play now.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

I agree. It might be pie in the sky but i was hoping a thread named 'What casinos have the highest RTP UK?' might start appearing in a few searches and raise awareness.

In any case, i just check each time i play now.

And this is the crux (and the real reason many businesses go under). Rather than be satisfied with SOME profit, they feel the need to maintain a level which reflects the hay day. This then leads to a deteriorating customer experience and bloated prices. Essentially, their greed is their undoing and they eventually go under as people seek better alternatives.

Treat your customers like mugs all you like, but don't cry when they turn around and give you the middle finger.

 

[goatwack]

It's not like it's not apparent in the average session. I've been banging that drum for a while, tinfoil and without tinfoil, that old and new games have been playing funky for a while now.

Just nice to know I don't need to be wheeled off by the men in white coats. Woo!

p.s Players need to wake up and smell the coffee. They'll be in some apathetic bliss up until they notice the gameplay being so bad that there's no hiding from it.

Let's just say everyone's favourite games will become unrecognizable, and so it's high-time punters ditched these industry practices, by either going landbased or finding another hobby. Because let's be honest, playing slots at 90% is a completely crap waste of time

 

[colinsunderland]

I agree. It might be pie in the sky but i was hoping a thread named 'What casinos have the highest RTP UK?' might start appearing in a few searches and raise awareness.

In any case, i just check each time i play now.

'What casinos have the best payout' would be better considering most people have never heard of RTP

 

[shadow123]

Average rtp should be part of a casinos ratings here on CM,dont know how much good it would do but
at least it might show that there are consequences for running at crap payouts.
Would suggest that 10 PNG,s and 10 red tigers were averaged out to come up a value.
I realize that it involves some work, I could do VS and Ladbrokes, the only 2 casinos where I am active
but on all other casinos if you are not a member you cant get to see the rtp.
Just an idea, if anyone is interested it would mean compiling a list of 20 games.

 

[slot_zombie]

YES we need a thread or at least a thread linking to a Google doc (for example). Presumably a mod would have to do this and make it sticky. I'm happy to contribute to RTP monitoring data for Red Tiger and Play & Go. Sad that we are reduced to having to do this, eh?

As someone posted above, Red Tiger RTP is a complete minefield, I have ONE site, Royal Slots, that seems to be OK for Red Tigers, with RTP in mostly in the 95% range, but then they wheeled out Dragons Fire Megaways and Lucky Oktoberfest on 94.68% for some bizarre reason. You just can't trust any sites for Red Tiger, without constantly checking RTP. I also had Conquestador for Red Tiger but they silently dropped them to 93%-ish last month.

 

[goatwack]

It's basically a case of having to track providers' RTP-lowering, or see them trying to hoodwink players on the sly

And they said the Golden Age of slotting was over. Pah! I laugh in their faces

 

[Reelsoffun]

@Harry_BKK I also said that it was going to happen. Its been brewing for a while and its why I couldnt understand the anger at VS when its clear its going to roll out all over the place in the future.

Everybody seems to forget the late 80's when a lot of UK AWPs were 78% -80% as default........ so 94% isnt the end of the world, if your playing tens of thousands of games a day, yes its gonna hurt a bit overall, but an average player isnt going to notice it short term on HV slots at all as they will swing 50%+ on a session anyway.

It is what it is, and to those that are stamping their feet and say they going back to land based, they are below 91% generally in the UK at least, so good luck with that.

 

[mack341]

@Harry_BKK I also said that it was going to happen. Its been brewing for a while and its why I couldnt understand the anger at VS when its clear its going to roll out all over the place in the future.

Everybody seems to forget the late 80's when a lot of UK AWPs were 78% -80% as default........ so 94% isnt the end of the world, if your playing tens of thousands of games a day, yes its gonna hurt a bit overall, but an average player isnt going to notice it short term on HV slots at all as they will swing 50%+ on a session anyway.

It is what it is, and to those that are stamping their feet and say they going back to land based, they are below 91% generally in the UK at least, so good luck with that.

If it's going to make little difference why bother doing it and undermining the product?

The bandit seemed to be noticing his bonus on BOD wasn't much cop, 1 expansion of the 'A' symbol in 20 spins I think he had, and was thousands down on it [this was last week at VS], you can lose a lot at 96% anyhow but when somebody has a bad session now they'll likely blame the lower rtp and may not play the game as often or at all.

The casinos like coral aren't announcing it either, so they know it's not going to be popular with regular players. However it's dressed up, players are going to win less money back and so the games have become more expensive to play.

 

[colinsunderland]

@Harry_BKK I also said that it was going to happen. Its been brewing for a while and its why I couldnt understand the anger at VS when its clear its going to roll out all over the place in the future.

Everybody seems to forget the late 80's when a lot of UK AWPs were 78% -80% as default........ so 94% isnt the end of the world, if your playing tens of thousands of games a day, yes its gonna hurt a bit overall, but an average player isnt going to notice it short term on HV slots at all as they will swing 50%+ on a session anyway.

It is what it is, and to those that are stamping their feet and say they going back to land based, they are below 91% generally in the UK at least, so good luck with that.

Its not clear its going to happen everywhere at all. There are 2 casino groups done it in a year, what makes you think the 100's of other casinos will do it in the future?

The anger at VS's was more the way they hid it than doing it, then tried to justify it by having Mr Wild come on and lie to everyone saying loads of other casinos had done the exact same thing when they hadn't at all.

As for land based, you expect them to have lower RTP's. They have much higher costs, and they tend to comp players much better. I haven't been in a casino for a few years now so don't know what the average RTP is in them these days, but I know many slots on FOTB's in bookies pay around 92-94%. Considering the widespread condemnation they get from everywhere, when online casinos are offering lower, you can see whats going to happen

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Everybody seems to forget the late 80's when a lot of UK AWPs were 78% -80% as default........ so 94% isnt the end of the world, if your playing tens of thousands of games a day, yes its gonna hurt a bit overall, but an average player isnt going to notice it short term on HV slots at all as they will swing 50%+ on a session anyway.

You can't compare compensated UK AWPs (which even now have a maximum prize of 100x stake, and back in the day were as low as 24/30x stake) and their RTPs, with online slots that are (a) Random and (b) Have top prizes often measured in many thousands of times stake.

You can get away with low RTPs on compensated machines with small jackpots, not least because a compensated machine will always actively 'aim for' its target percentage, often kicking back a portion of a player's losses back to them and giving them an obvious stop point.

The thing with online slots is the effect of a lower RTP is cumulative, an increase in the house edge from 4% to 6% is a huge difference in the long run, and whilst individual sessions will swing widely, as slots are so volatile, the overall long term effect is still that the house has increased its edge by 50%.

I've done over one million real money game rounds at 3Dice now, and guess what, I'm pretty much bang on the target RTP taken as a whole across the site, now imagine if you took what I'd lost at 3Dice over the last few years (which is quite a lot), and add another 50% on top......

You can't just wave away casinos helping themselves to an increased house edge of 50% (and often more than that!) as something players won't notice and/or shouldn't care about.

 

[goatwack]

I think the main point of contention here, is that we're supposed to take companies pulling stunts, and shut up

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If it's going to make little difference why bother doing it and undermining the product?

As I'm sure you know yourself mack, it's because the cumulative effect will be massive, let's take a reduction from 96% RTP to 94% RTP.

Sounds trivial, but that's a 50% INCREASE the house edge, the casinos are taking 6p out of every pound instead of 4p out of every pound (long term on average).

And individual players will feel the effect, not over 100 spins, or 1000 spins perhaps, but add all those thousands of spins together, across session after session after session, and T-RTP will do its thing, like it has for me at 3Dice, and the net effect will be the casinos with the lower RTPs will take a lot more of your money over time.

Vote with your wallet, and refuse to play games at casinos that are running them with lower RTPs.

And what if they all start doing it?

There are other things we can spend our money on for entertainment, is my way of looking at it.

 

[Matti]

Its not clear its going to happen everywhere at all. There are 2 casino groups done it in a year, what makes you think the 100's of other casinos will do it in the future?

There are 3 now since several casinos at Cherrycasino/Comeon has lowered the RTP on several game providers, at least in the Swedish market.

You must also remember all the casinos that are running on lower RTP's from the beginning that don't need to lower them. That is quite a few.

 

[colinsunderland]

There are 3 now since several casinos at Cherrycasino/Comeon has lowered the RTP on several game providers, at least in the Swedish market.

You must also remember all the casinos that are running on lower RTP's from the beginning that don't need to lower them. That is quite a few.

They don't operate in the UK so I can't check them out.
I think the thread is about who are reducing the RTP's more then having lower ones to start with. We know to avoid places like Aspire who offer shit RTP's on games, What I think people have a problem with is, and I certainly do even if others don't, is playing at a casino using the high RTP setting then finding out by chance that they have reduced them. I couldn't care less if they reduce them, as long as they email me or give a pop up when launching the game, so I know not to waste my money there any longer.

 

[shadow123]

Think the new regulations being brought in all the time are the main cause for this in the UK.
Casinos have to employ more people to cope with all the crap,and like any business they are trying
maintain the profit margin, cant really blame them for that.
Not defending them but I dont think its greed, just a shame that the player end up paying the costs.

 

[mack341]

As I'm sure you know yourself mack, it's because the cumulative effect will be massive, let's take a reduction from 96% RTP to 94% RTP.

Sounds trivial, but that's a 50% INCREASE the house edge, the casinos are taking 6p out of every pound instead of 4p out of every pound (long term on average).

And individual players will feel the effect, not over 100 spins, or 1000 spins perhaps, but add all those thousands of spins together, across session after session after session, and T-RTP will do its thing, like it has for me at 3Dice, and the net effect will be the casinos with the lower RTPs will take a lot more of your money over time.

Vote with your wallet, and refuse to play games at casinos that are running them with lower RTPs.

And what if they all start doing it?

There are other things we can spend our money on for entertainment, is my way of looking at it.

I totally agree, I've lost thousands playing 96% slots so reducing the rtp is going to make them much more wallet unfriendly, and if players like me cut back then the casinos could actually lose more in the long run as other hobbies and pastimes are discovered. I also worry about the toxic effect meaner slots could have on addicted players, and I wonder how the slot makers shave that 2% off, from the base game or bonus/bonus frequency? Will they need to increase the teasing and near misses?

I've just come to the end of a 4 week TAB, and during that time video gaming has more than took up the slack for me, just completed assassins creed 4 black flag, they say video games can be bad for your mind but I've been feeling much better in myself and at ease - except for last night trying to finish that damn last mission that takes place in the observatory, died about 10 times before I managed it somehow

Today I went back on raging rhino and was cursing and fuming in no time... so it'll probably be back to gaming I go [btw the ps4 pro was £249 somewhere yesterday with a game Chopley will you buy the new consoles coming out next year or wait for a price drop?]

Edit: I knew I forgot something, apparently netent are looking at making lower rtp versions of their games too. Unless I dreamt that

 

[spiker1977]

On the 22nd of April 2016, the Remote Gaming Regulations (S.L. 438.04) were amended through the publication of Legal Notice 131 of 2016. The amendment introduces new obligations on entities licensed in terms of the Remote Gaming Regulations.

The new regulation 46A requires that specified casino-type games offered under a remote gaming licence issued by the Malta Gaming Authority (MGA) shall abide by a minimum average return to player (RTP) of 92% or any such higher percentage as may be stipulated through the licence condition.

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Thoughts?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've just come to the end of a 4 week TAB, and during that time video gaming has more than took up the slack for me, just completed assassins creed 4 black flag, they say video games can be bad for your mind but I've been feeling much better in myself and at ease - except for last night trying to finish that damn last mission that takes place in the observatory, died about 10 times before I managed it somehow

Today I went back on raging rhino and was cursing and fuming in no time... so it'll probably be back to gaming I go [btw the ps4 pro was £249 somewhere yesterday with a game Chopley will you buy the new consoles coming out next year or wait for a price drop?]

This is the thing mack, there are loads of other things we can choose to spend our money on, and casinos need to appreciate that for those of us who aren't addicted, but like a gamble, we will just spend our money elsewhere if we start to feel that gambling is taking the piss.

If RTPs drop to 94% or lower across the board, for example, I'll just say 'fuck it' and drop online slots, I like a gamble, but not if I feel like I'm getting rudely rodded up the behind in the process.

Win some, lose some, I'm happy with, playing random games with a house edge means I'll lose in the long run, I'm fine with that. My losses at 3Dice over a million game rounds add up to what you might expect, but I've had a heck of a good run for my money there over many years, feel I've had entertainment along the way, and they treat me well as a customer, which is why I still deposit and play there. (And when I make a withdrawal, it'll be paid within hours, any day of the year.)

As someone like myself who's really into videogames mack, and when it's possible to buy a top-tier, brand new videogame for £50-£60 that offer tens (in not hundreds!) of hours of entertainment, I'm sure you sometimes think to yourself (as I do!), when a £100 deposit vanishes with no significant playtime, fun, or features - 'I'm not really sure that was worth it.....'

Do casinos just want to rely on addicts? Because sometimes, the way they're going about things, particularly with hacking away at RTPs, you do have to wonder......

 

[dunover]

I'M not sure this is all down to casino greed, rather the market conditions in which they operate. We know that margins are skinned to the bone by the amount of (UK especially) closures due to stiff competition and high UK GGR taxes.

At first the bonuses were reduced and capped due to the parachute mechanism which became necessary after the UKGC cash-separation rules. Then taxes rose from 15 to 21%. As well as the exits from the market and closures, we have seen examples like that of Trada amalgamating their platform to reduce overheads.

So the last place for them to go is increasing house edge to remain viable. To that end, the developers will be offering variable RTP's for their games.

You'd all better get used to it, or as Chopley said, if the beer is watery then stop drinking it.

With all due respect to Chopley, 3Dice are in the grey market and won't be subject to the same licensing costs, rules and taxes that other sites are. So it's unfair to compare their RTP offerings with the casinos that are hamstrung by the conditions I mentioned above.

 

[slot_zombie]

I'll carry on for as long as I have games available at factory RTP.

If there comes a point where only lowered RTP is available, then I shall stop playing.

It's bad enough with a 3.5-4% house edge. They are fairly horrendous odds for repetitive, swift games like slots, but we are all conditioned to it. 6% is.. cya

 

[shadow123]

Getting to the state when I am getting paranoid about the RTP of games, checking them before playing.
Anything under 94% I wont to play full stop and will switch to another casino where I know the RTP is higher.
That rules out a lot of games at VS and they losing my revenue because of it.
For most of December I have playing at VS and Ladbrokes, I had a 1k loss limit set at VS which I used up in 10 days but ladbrokes gave me a good profit and I won most of that back there.
Despite what a lot of people think the RTP is important and does make a significant diiference to playtime
and return even over a relativily short period.
I think casions that do manage to retain decent RTP,s will benifit in the long term due to migration of players
from others who have slashed the payouts.
If as seems possible, most or all casinos reduce th RTP,s , it really will be time to pack up

 

[colinsunderland]

On the 22nd of April 2016, the Remote Gaming Regulations (S.L. 438.04) were amended through the publication of Legal Notice 131 of 2016. The amendment introduces new obligations on entities licensed in terms of the Remote Gaming Regulations.

The new regulation 46A requires that specified casino-type games offered under a remote gaming licence issued by the Malta Gaming Authority (MGA) shall abide by a minimum average return to player (RTP) of 92% or any such higher percentage as may be stipulated through the licence condition.

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Thoughts?

Is that still valid? I thought Aspire used the 91% PlaynGo setting under the MGA license (as well as the UK one)? Haven't checked myself, just what I;ve seen posted elsewhere.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Heads up!

Have just noticed Cashmio are using lower RTP for PlaynGo's Wild Frames of 94.5%.

Unusual, as any other game i have checked is on the highest setting and always has been, as far as i know.

Edit: Dunder have Piggy Riches Megaways at 94.72% but this also seems out of context for their usual standard.

 

[Gaz237]

The way I see it. 90% of players know sweet FA about RTP.

So even if the 10% that do, stopped playing, any revenue loss to a Casino would be more than made up by the lower RTP.

Casinos are a business, run for profit. The same as any other business and lower RTP will become uniform across the board for mainstream labels.

 

[slot_zombie]

Actually saw a streamer called out in their chat the other night for playing at and promoting Genesis casinos. His response? "Nah, I don't think RTP matters. It only matters over 10000s of spins and I only do 100 spins before switching games".

There's no arguing with that..

 

[slot_zombie]

The way I see it. 90% of players know sweet FA about RTP.

So even if the 10% that do, stopped playing, any revenue loss to a Casino would be more than made up by the lower RTP.

Casinos are a business, run for profit. The same as any other business and lower RTP will become uniform across the board for mainstream labels.

Maybe 10% know about RTP... And another 20-30% go find a new hobby because they are so disappointed with the play time they're getting... it's not as clear cut.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Actually saw a streamer called out in their chat the other night for playing at and promoting Genesis casinos. His response? "Nah, I don't think RTP matters. It only matters over 10000s of spins and I only do 100 spins before switching games".

There's no arguing with that..

I am inclined to agree but a small part of me wonders how much this does affect us.

There is a % reduction so there will be a loss somehere - now thats a fact you cant argue with.

I wonder when playing a reduced rtp game does it take from the bonus or base game? Lessen the scatter drops to compensate or hinder multipliers or features?

 

[slot_zombie]

Lol. It's 91% no matter how much he switcharoos between games. Never heard anything so daft and ill informed in my life on a stream. But I suspect it's something to do with the 200% streamer bonuses they keep giving him, plus the affiliate commissions.

 

[m0nkeyboy]

Hello, I'm new to the forums so apologies if this is not the right place to post this. But just noticed that piggy riches megaway is running at a lower RTP on Kassu than at casumo and others. I had assumed that as it was Netent that it would be the same across all platforms but guess that as it's a JV with red tiger they have built in different rtp models. It's bloody confusing...

Is there a list of Casino's that do change the RTPs anywhere on the forum? I know of quite a few and once i find them i tend not to play there or if i do just not those games...

 

[bamberfishcake]

Hello, I'm new to the forums so apologies if this is not the right place to post this. But just noticed that piggy riches megaway is running at a lower RTP on Kassu than at casumo and others. I had assumed that as it was Netent that it would be the same across all platforms but guess that as it's a JV with red tiger they have built in different rtp models. It's bloody confusing...

Is there a list of Casino's that do change the RTPs anywhere on the forum? I know of quite a few and once i find them i tend not to play there or if i do just not those games...

Just started a thread regarding UK casinos for this. Your post kick started me into getting it done -

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