Geisha Lounge

[Wagerjunction]

Resolved

Yes it has been reoslved - the amount was deducted as he did not meet wagering requirements he was emailed to that effect complained .The Casino checked again and confirmed that he did not meet the wagering.

I hear you re the 2 different coupons it would be easier to do it that way and i have advised the Casino to change to this method or update their promotional page with more information re the additional wagering

Dauan - i can certainly get all of the correspondence that was sent to you sent again or can definiotely post it here.

The $100 was put in as a complimentory and i advised the Casino to do that ,they emailed you as well with what they had done.

I am getting the feeling that this particular Casino is bieng targeted by a very particular bunch of people and you can continue targeting and making these very silly accusations.When people like Spearmaster vouch for me andmy casinos i know that i am doing something right as he has been in this industry for a very long time.

Dauan you are more than welcome to PM me if you feel the resolution is not to your satisfaction and we can examine and go over what has happened and why i believed that the matter was finalized.

Elscrabinda as per usual your comments have added a lot of value to this thread.

Regards
Greg

 

[spearmaster]

A couple of questions, since I am oblivious to what I am apparently missing

1. Is the PTR for Blackjack 40x deposit or 40 x deposit and bonus?
2. If 40x deposit, did Dauan in fact meet the PTR by playing through $4000?
3. If 40x D+B, there is absolutely no question that Dauan did not meet the T&C, and thus the casino's decision is correct.

I'm going to assume that it is 3, and not 1 and 2. I can't see Greg using my name in vain LOL... and he would not be highly likely to do so unless he were 100% certain that I was going to see it his way.

Though, to be honest, if he didn't meet the T&C, what in the world did you give him $100 for? If I were to go play, and didn't meet the T&C, would you give me $100 too?

 

[Dauan]

In reality, im not complaining (too much anyway) on the casino. On the casinos behalf im complaining on the lack of communications, which is probably why they compensated me with 100$.

The fact that the software let me withdraw the money, since i had done playthrough of 4000$, when in fact it should not had let me is my big complaint. Yes, i did not play for 8000$ which i probably should have. but then again, how should i had known when that point had been reached, since i at all time could cash out, and effectively lost all my profit? Is it realistic that i should keep running to support to chek my PTR??

In that case they will think i am a abuser, and again i will lose my money. Can you see someone in a casino running to the help desk and asking if they can get their money back once every 5 minutes? I know live and online is not the same thing and im just fetching in thin air.

Personally, i dont think the matter is resolved. But, maybe i will have to accept the decision since, yes, i did not adhere to T&C, but realisticly, there was no way i could, since the software did not telling me i did wrong.

Opinions?

 

[spearmaster]

I think the problem, in the end, is that the terms were solid - and other players have pointed this fact out as well.

I don't doubt that you did what you thought you could and weren't trying to abuse the casino - but they have to have some method of protecting themselves from people who DO intend to abuse the bonus, and unfortunately you accidentally fell foul of these procedures.

I'm sure they'll look into finding other ways to resolve this (ie. blackjack coupon, slots coupon etc.) and that will also partly explain why you were given a hundred for the inconvenience - but honestly they're just setting themselves up for more abuse that way

In future, I recommend that, if you believe you have met the terms and conditions, reconfirm with support by email and wait until they confirm this fact before cashing out - saves you future headaches, and also provides you with ammunition in case the casino reneges.

 

[thelawnet]

A couple of questions, since I am oblivious to what I am apparently missing

1. Is the PTR for Blackjack 40x deposit or 40 x deposit and bonus?
2. If 40x deposit, did Dauan in fact meet the PTR by playing through $4000?
3. If 40x D+B, there is absolutely no question that Dauan did not meet the T&C, and thus the casino's decision is correct.

I'm going to assume that it is 3

I believe it is #3.

But the point was not that he did not meet the T&C, but that the casino (or its software) told him he had met the T&C and could withdraw the money. They provided the software and it misled him. The player made it quite clear that he did not play excluded games until he believed he had met the WR.

And why did he believe this?

Because the software told him so.

And when he proceeded, not to withdraw at the earliest opportunity, but to gamble at their roulette game, which is not generous at all by online standards.

I don't think this is player-friendly at all. He made what obviously was an honest and innocent mistake and the casino's attitude is

'HA HA YOU LOSE, you didn't read section 5, clause 4, tough luck buddy.'

There's no, 'Sorry, our software doesn't correctly report when you can withdraw, we misled you, you get your money back'

No, the attitude is 'We misled you, but we don't care, we are going to take the $4500 you honestly won, and give you back a measly $100, because that's how we make short-term profits at the expense of giving a damn about the honest player'.

Nice, very nice.

I don't think this behaviour is at all reasonable.

 

[thelawnet]

I think the problem, in the end, is that the terms were solid - and other players have pointed this fact out as well.

I don't doubt that you did what you thought you could and weren't trying to abuse the casino - but they have to have some method of protecting themselves from people who DO intend to abuse the bonus, and unfortunately you accidentally fell foul of these procedures.

It's no accident.

He won $4,500. They didn't pay him.

This is a conscious decision. They had a choice.

 

[winbig]

What would be wrong with:


Dear Sir,

Our records show that you haven't completed the wagering requirements, so we are reversing your withdraw request.

Please note that you have $XXXX left to wager before requesting a withdraw.

Thank you and happy gaming!


If you ask me, this would make for much happier customers and much more repeat business. Seems to me that they're burning more bridges than they're building by keeping winnings simply because someone requested a withdraw before meeting the WR.

It's a little similar to someone committing a crime in front of many witnesses, but getting off scott free simply because of a technicality....think about it.

 

[thelawnet]

What would be wrong with:


Dear Sir,

Our records show that you haven't completed the wagering requirements, so we are reversing your withdraw request.

Please note that you have $XXXX left to wager before requesting a withdraw.

Thank you and happy gaming!


If you ask me, this would make for much happier customers and much more repeat business.

In this case the problem was he played roulette (which is actually far more profitable than blackjack for the casino) prior to meeting the WR.

Under their rules (which you WON'T find at say Fortune Lounge or Belle Rock casinos), this is not allowed.

God only knows why, as it will result in the casino making more money.

My understanding is it was originally intended to stop people betting 18/18/1 on red/black/zero on the lower wagering requirements of yore.

Certainly not relevant any more. In fact I think casinos should encourage people to play roulette, as it has a much higher house edge.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Here are Geisha Lounge's promotion T&Cs. Do they state they can steal a players winnings if they try to withdraw before completing the wagering requirements or play on restricted games?

I cannot see this ANYWHERE (or am I missing something?). If not they have no right at all to steal this players winnings. They should be returned and and they should be allowed to complete the wagering requirements.

1. Only players who have registered a Real Account are eligible to receive Promotions.

2. In order to claim a promotion, qualifying Real Account holders must make their claim via our Cashier unless otherwise stated, ensuring that all the necessary fields are filled in correctly including the correct Coupon Code

3. Bonuses will be credited to the Player's Real Account as Casino Credits only, unless otherwise stated.

4. In claiming any bonus offer from the Casino, the player agrees to wager a minimum of twenty times the value of the purchase and the bonus before making a cash in. For example: If you wish to partake in a $100 free for $100 purchase, you must wager an amount of 20x $200. Play on restricted games Roulette,Craps,War and Baccarat is not permitted until the minimum wagering requirements have been met.Should you wish to play on Blackjack (All Blackjack games) and Tri Card Poker,You will need to wager 45x the purchase and bonus to fulfill wagering conditions (UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE).Should you wish to play on Video Poker and Multi Hand Video Poker,You will need to wager 25x the purchase and bonus to fulfill wagering conditions (UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE) Once these conditions have been fulfilled play on all the restricted games ( Roulette,Craps, War and Baccarat)is permitted. Additional wagering requirements may be imposed by the casino without prior notice in relation to any specific promotional offer

4.2 In order to cash in the bonus, you need to cash in a total amount greater than the sum of the purchase and the bonus. This means that you will only be able to cash in the bonus (or part thereof) if you make a profit on the bonus. If your profit is less than the amount of the bonus, this amount will be credited back to your casino account for you to play with. If you lose more than the amount of the bonus no restrictions will be imposed on your cash-in, other than the wager requirements noted above. For example, if you purchase US$100 and receive a bonus of US$100, then a cash-in of US$190 will result in US$90 being returned to your casino account, and you will only be able to cash-in again once your balance exceeds US$100 (being the amount of the bonus received).

5. A promotion cannot be used in conjunction with any other promotional offer and only one (1) bonus offer can be claimed per person. Play across multiple accounts is combined, where applicable. The minimum cash in amount is $50 unless otherwise specified.

6. Bonuses may be refused at the discretion of the management if abuse of promotions is suspected. All cashins will be audited and refused where there is suspected fraud or at the casino management's discretion. Fraudulent bonus claims or cashins will result in the player being charged a processing fee (min. 12% of purchase amount), which will be deducted from their casino balance.

7. By accepting any prize and/or winnings from the Company, you consent to the use of your name for advertising and promotional purposes without additional compensation except where prohibited by law.

8. The Company reserves the right to amend these Terms and Conditions at any time without notice to you. Such amendments will be effective immediately upon being posted in this "Terms and Conditions" section of the Company's Web site. It is your responsibility to review the Terms and Conditions on a regular basis and to check any additional rules detailed within promotional emails. Should you be unclear about any point relating to a specific promotion, it is your responsibility to contact the support team and gain a full understanding before partaking in a promotion.

9. The Terms and Conditions contained herein represent the complete, final and exclusive agreement between you and the Company and supersede and merge all prior agreements, representations and understandings between you and the Company with regards to the claiming of any promotional or bonus offers.

10. Any promotion or offer is terminable at any time in accordance with the views of management without prior notice or obligation.

11. The management reserves the right to disqualify certain countries or individual players from promotional offers. Among the countries whose players are disqualified from promotions are those blacklisted in our General Terms and Conditions. Promotional offers via email, telephone or mail are extended only to the player whom the correspondence is addressed.

12. Please note that a separate Terms and Conditions exists for the general rules of playing in the Casino.

 

[caruso]

Here are Geisha Lounge's promotion T&Cs. Do they state they can steal a players winnings if they try to withdraw before completing the wagering requirements or play on restricted games?

Not that exact wording, but they do say as much:

"Play on restricted games Roulette,Craps,War and Baccarat is not permitted until the minimum wagering requirements have been met."

This isn't a case of "Games, W, X Y & Z don't count towards the playthrough...", which is NOT a license to revoke winnings. The casino clearly states here that play on roulette is not allowed. The problem is the player thought he HAD completed the wagering. However, to play an excluded game ANY time is, err...nuts. Even if he HAD completed the wagering, the casino could still make a tentative case for revoking winnings with the bonus still in his account. Playing banned games is like going out on a cloudy day without an umbrella in this country - totally asking for trouble.

This, unfortunately, was a player screw-up.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

For me that statement doesn't give them the right to null and void all the winnings, it only means winnings (or losses) made on the excluded games should be null and void.

By the terms the players account should be adjusted by any winnings or losses from Roulette and then they should be allowed to complete the wagering on non-excluded games.

BTW I do agree the player screwed up by playing the excluded games - I just don't think that term gives the casino the right steal all their winnings.

 

[spearmaster]

Like I said, without further knowing the circumstances, I can only proceed on what I described above.

Whatever restricted game was played afterwards is irrelevant to this discussion - house edge or not. There are ways to play high house-edge games to scam a casino (or casinos) as well.

And yes, the roulette restriction at all casinos is because of bets on red/black, odd/even, high/low etc. And I also agree that this is quite silly - but the fact remains that the casino has the right to determine the conditions under which it wishes to offer a promotion.

 

[elscrabinda]

Whether or not the casino is ALLOWED to seize this money is irrelevant to the overall trustworthiness of them in this community.

I would not be happy playing at a casino where I know that not only are they going to throw strange terms in my way and confuse me with a misleading wager counter, but they are going to take any opportunity they can to seize my money rather than helping make sure there are no honest misunderstandings.

I'm sure Greg will be back on here to slag me and others off in his usual courteous and professional way but thats not going to go any way in giving players here confidence in his employers very un player friendly trading practices.

 

[Wagerjunction]

Terms and Conditions

Spear

The scenario is the one you painted in point 3 ,the player did not meet the T&Cs of the promotion.

Spear i convinced the Casino to give him another hundred as a gesture of goodwill as i do feel quite bad that he ran foul of this term and condition.

I believe that the Casino is speaking to RTG re the issue of the software behaving in this manner ,you are totally correct the casino is opening itself to abuse by a very vocal minority .I am advising that we turn the whole Wagering Requirement tool off and wagering as per MGS casinos will have to be emailed in for by clients or they can work it out themselves.

The condition in the T&Cs quite specifically state ,play an excluded game and your winnings will be removed.

elscrabinda -slag you off,i dont have the time or inclination,just pointing out facts is good enough for me.

A lot of very good people vouch for this Casino and i have a lot of very happy players playing at it so by all means do whatever it is you need to do.


Have a great day

Regards
Greg

 

[Dirk Diggler]

The condition in the T&Cs quite specifically state ,play an excluded game and your winnings will be removed.

As asked several times, where do they state this?

 

[caruso]

The condition in the T&Cs quite specifically state ,play an excluded game and your winnings will be removed.

Absolutely LMAO - no they don't, not at all.

One clearly understands that this is the case, since playing excluded games is barred, but please don't go into standard online casino mode and start inventing and fabricating facts to suit your argument. That won't win you any customers.

It is not "clearly stated" anywhere - it is simply understood. If you want to "clearly state" it, then, err, try "clearly stating" it somewhere.

Funny.

 

[Wagerjunction]

Quite Clearly

Caruso perhaps you need to read them more thoroughly.

It stated

Play on restricted games Roulette,Craps,War and Baccarat is not permitted until the minimum wagering requirements have been met

Funny it is not as i feel for the player and the Casino has lost a player that it would rather keep.

 

[Dauan]

Lost me they have, not so much for the T&C.. But yea, that does as well.

Fair enough, i broke the T&C, I will admit to that. But it does not say that you can take all my winnings.

What i seem like a fair solution and suggestion you might not. Is to restore to the amount where i had played for 4000 and started on exclusive games. That way, i will still be able to do my WR, and be a happy bunny and happily play for another 4000. I think it is a bit unfair, that you are very bonehard, since i obvisously is not there to abuse the bonus. Its not like i tried to run away with the money. And not only that, the software, that you, the casino is using, told me that there was no problem with playing the games.

Also, at first time when i contacted CS, they said it was no problem with my withdrawal, until i asked him about my withdrawal beeing sent back, not until then did he say that it was a problem.

 

[caruso]

Caruso perhaps you need to read them more thoroughly.

It stated "Play on restricted games Roulette,Craps,War and Baccarat is not permitted until the minimum wagering requirements have been met".

Hey, bright spark, how can it "clearly state" what it doesn't say? It says NOTHING about voiding anything. It says as above. If you'd got your reading glasses on and could speak English you'd see that for yourself. You'd also see that I was agreeing with you. Note "was" - because if this kind of a clueless character is in charge of this casino, I think it's time to shift the casino back down the ranks into the rest of the RTG "no play" department.

Get for facts straight before you start the smart-ass remarks with me.

 

[caruso]

What i seem like a fair solution and suggestion you might not. Is to restore to the amount where i had played for 4000 and started on exclusive games.

I agree. Pay him what he'd won by 4K wagering, steal the rest, then let him play out the remaining 4K.

 

[paul1]

Hey, bright spark,.....If you'd got your reading glasses on and could speak English you'd see that for yourself.

lol Bryan's gonna be mad when he gets back and sees this. lol At the very least he's going to say "Chill."

Honestly, though. This doesn't look very good. I just joined Grand Aces and I want to play at Geisha also. I really love the RTG software and am just starting to play it. (except for a bad experience at Portofino I had a couple years ago)

I hope this gets resolved. I'm looking forward to playing at reputable RTG sites.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Greg - that statement does not allow you to steal the players winnings. It just excludes play on those games.

Therefore what should be done (as I've stated before) is all winnings (or losses) made on the excluded games should be voided, and then the player should be allowed to complete the wagering.

 

[Wagerjunction]

Bright Spark

Ok ok sorry very busy day, i re read the thread and am with you know Caruso.I am sure i can get the Casino to clearly state the obvious if that is required and i am sure they will comply.

Dauan ,i am going to speak to the Casino about it and i will get back to you regarding this ,i think that they have been a little bit too strict in applying the terms and conditions.

What they are doing is they are going to be shortly having a second coupon code for Blackjack and Tricard Poker so that issues like this do not occur again.They wanted to move to a Single Coupon so that there would not be so many coupons and so much confusion for its players -seems like a little tweaking is required.

I am positive that this will be finalized to your satisfaction -tell me how many 100% signm up bonuses did you get apart from the free $100 ?

Rregards
Greg

 

[caruso]

I don't even think that re-wording is necessary - the implication is clearly that winnings will be revoked. I was reacting to the suggestion that this was STATED. It is satisfactorily implied, simply not stated. It remains adequate as it is, however. I don't think any penalties for rule-infringement are spelled out, as one clearly understands the consequences. As such, the terms as written are fine.

 

[spearmaster]

lol Bryan's gonna be mad when he gets back and sees this. lol At the very least he's going to say "Chill."

He's not back, so I'm going to say it.

Chill.

Any more posts like this from anyone will buy that person a one-week virtual vacation to any destination online BUT the Casinomeister forums.