Game Problem - Casino Response Question

[itsover2014]

Hi All

I have been playing a game at an accredited casino for a few months, that I have played elsewhere and quite enjoy. It has not been treating me well and I felt something seemed off with the payouts.

So this weekend I had a good look into it, to find out the top possible payout (multiple of stake) on the actual real money game is actually half of what is stated in the game rules, and half what it is elsewhere. It is also half of what is on the free play version as I played both to check.

The rules of the game, and the game itself are advertising a payout which is completely incorrect.

I immediately sent a complaint to the casino, and have received this as the response:


Hi

Thank you for your reply.

I am sorry to hear that you are disappointed with your games experience with the game. It is our game provider that supplies us with that game, we do not set the rules of the game it is the game provider that decides how the game will work. Unfortunately, can we not change the rules for this. You will have to contact our game provider and send a complaint to them. I am sorry about this but we can not do anything about the game.

You are most welcome to contact us again if you have any questions regarding this or something else in the future. Our support is open 24/7.


Best regards.

I am not in the least bit happy with this.

First off, they do not care, at all - they are really highly rated too.

Second off, they do not state how I would contact the provider, and the casino are the ones taking money from this game.

I will message the rep today, but I just wanted some opinions here about whether I am being over the top as I have been known to be..

 

[Jono777]

Can't help much but can back up that casinos have 100% NO control over game designs/outcomes/spins etc etc etc.

A polite PM to the rep is the way forward detailing your frustrations and problems but keep if friendly lol, don't get anywhere by ranting and raving lol

 

[goatwack]

Well of course if the game is provably wrong in its payouts then I don't see why it shouldn't be brought up. The software provider is primarily at fault but the casino shouldn't absolve themselves of blame either. They are the ones hosting the game(s) and ought to be the 'middle man' when it comes to these types of grievances.

Because as we know, contacting software providers directly as a player is akin to urinating into the wind.....on a really blustery day.

It's not DOA again is it? I knew that game has been diddling me again. I'm off to write Netent an invoice for money owed!!

 

[itsover2014]

Well of course if the game is provably wrong in its payouts then I don't see why it shouldn't be brought up. The software provider is primarily at fault but the casino shouldn't absolve themselves of blame either. They are the ones hosting the game(s) and ought to be the 'middle man' when it comes to these types of grievances.

Because as we know, contacting software providers directly as a player is akin to urinating into the wind.....on a really blustery day.

It's not DOA again is it? I knew that game has been diddling me again. I'm off to write Netent an invoice for money owed!!

Haha not DOA sadly

I agree with this though, if the game was paying out double what it should as a JP I am pretty sure the casino would be all over it..

The rep has sent it to the developer and will let me know - will update when I hear back.

 

[colinsunderland]

Haha not DOA sadly

I agree with this though, if the game was paying out double what it should as a JP I am pretty sure the casino would be all over it..

The rep has sent it to the developer and will let me know - will update when I hear back.

Why not state what game it is, so others can double check in case you have missed something? Even if you don't state the casino, it might help as others could email where they play it too and see what response they get?

In my view the casino is the right place to complain, and don't be fobbed of by them saying contact the provider. You don't pay the provider to play, you pay the casino.

 

[quber]

Would it be Starburst you are playing?

That game pays both ways so the 5 OAK pays double what the paytable says:-

250 coins per line on level 10 pays 2,500 both ways =5,000 per line X10 lines = 50,000

If it's a different game let us know which one.

 

[Dan.Videoslots]

Hi all,

This is something that happened at Videoslots and we are first of all so sorry about the reply that you got from the support. We know we have got loads of complaints lately from Casinomeister regarding our support and this is something that we are taking seriously and working with internally.

The game we are talking about his Key Bet Roulette from Barcrest and the reason why maximum payout and bet levels can differ from casino to casino is due to the risk the casino is willing to take. So with some game provider, it’s possible to do changes like that but without effecting the actual RTP. There is also in some cases where the changes don’t apply to the demo mode and that is sadly nothing we can effect but also feedback we will provide to the game provider.

Br,

Daniel.

 

[itsover2014]

Thanks Dan, and thanks for the PM.

Yeah so basically, while playing it, it states you can win up to 100x on the keybet slot. However the Max you can actually win at videoslots is 50x.

Is there no way they can change the description, as it is a bit misleading!

 

[goatwack]

If that is indeed the case it wouldn't kill the casino to add a side note when booting the game up, or displaying that site's percentage on the game

 

[spintee]

Its been pointed out a few times in the past, Some games state win UPTO XXXX amount, But there is no way on earth you can win that much on some games unless you get a few thousand re-triggers with massive wins, But with slots like twin spin its IMPOSSIBLE to win amount, I know some slots alter the payable when changing bets, But I also know some sites decide to have less of a max bet but still state the same max win,

@VS As you pointed out yourself there has been a few complaints about customer service, Do you all not reside in the same office?

 

[colinsunderland]

Hi all,

This is something that happened at Videoslots and we are first of all so sorry about the reply that you got from the support. We know we have got loads of complaints lately from Casinomeister regarding our support and this is something that we are taking seriously and working with internally.

The game we are talking about his Key Bet Roulette from Barcrest and the reason why maximum payout and bet levels can differ from casino to casino is due to the risk the casino is willing to take. So with some game provider, it’s possible to do changes like that but without effecting the actual RTP. There is also in some cases where the changes don’t apply to the demo mode and that is sadly nothing we can effect but also feedback we will provide to the game provider.

Br,

Daniel.

If the game states you can win 100x your bet, then I'm sorry, but you should be able to win 100x your bet. If you can't then it needs changing as soon as possible or the game removing. You can't offer something that is impossible to get.

Regarding your support I hope you do sort it out, it really lets you down, as it really is poor.

 

[fun4all]

If the game states you can win 100x your bet, then I'm sorry, but you should be able to win 100x your bet. If you can't then it needs changing as soon as possible or the game removing. You can't offer something that is impossible to get.

I agree with the above, but I think it falls under Advertising. I would change your sentence to "You cannot advertise something that is impossible to get". Displays on a game like "Win up to xxx" are advertising and it has to be possible.

I also think the liability for something like this falls split equally between both the provider and the casino.

 

[colinsunderland]

I agree with the above, but I think it falls under Advertising. I would change your sentence to "You cannot advertise something that is impossible to get". Displays on a game like "Win up to xxx" are advertising and it has to be possible.

I also think the liability for something like this falls split equally between both the provider and the casino.

Agreed, I only didn't mention advertising as I am sure there will be something in the gaming act somewhere that covers it too, otherwise you would have every slot saying win up to £1000000000 then in small print somewhere 'if you win the max win at max stake 500 times in a row'

 

[itsover2014]

Agreed, I only didn't mention advertising as I am sure there will be something in the gaming act somewhere that covers it too, otherwise you would have every slot saying win up to £1000000000 then in small print somewhere 'if you win the max win at max stake 500 times in a row'

The thing that has miffed me, I was playing expecting the keybet to pay 100x when I land it. It changes way I play the table if this is not paying 100x, I cannot believe it took me months to figure it out, but like I said before if it was paying out 200x (and stating 100x) I am pretty sure the game would be gone and probably bets voided.

 

[brianmon]

Casumo have it listed as 50x, so it's obviously not fixed in the graphics of the game

 

[brianmon]

Can't help much but can back up that casinos have 100% NO control over game designs/outcomes/spins etc etc etc.

A polite PM to the rep is the way forward detailing your frustrations and problems but keep if friendly lol, don't get anywhere by ranting and raving lol

The casinos obviously have more control over certain aspects of games than most are willing to admit

 

[Dan.Videoslots]

Casumo have it listed as 50x, so it's obviously not fixed in the graphics of the game

View attachment 67392

View attachment 67393

Hi Brianmom,

I have sent this to Scientific Games and if it's possible to change then it should be changed.

Yes, I do sit in the same building at the support and I talk with them daily.


Br,

Daniel

 

[fun4all]

They also have complete full control over what is displayed on their website.

 

[colinsunderland]

Hi Brianmom,

I have sent this to Scientific Games and if it's possible to change then it should be changed.

Yes, I do sit in the same building at the support and I talk with them daily.


Br,

Daniel

It looks like its been fixed now, I would hope you pay the thread starter the extra 50x as it clearly said 100x not 50x?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Surely x50 and x100 are multiples of the stake, so even if a casino is managing risk by lowering the actual max bet, it should STILL pay x100 of that reduced bet otherwise the RTP IS different because one possible outcome has been halved, which must affect the TRTP. Unless of course this is a "fruit machine", a compensated game rather than random, in which case the game RTP has little to do with the mathematical probabilities of outcomes and what they pay. A fruit machine set to a half jackpot payout will simply compensate by paying it twice as often in order to maintain the RTP.

 

[Mr Wild]

Don't believe its fixed. You can see the same issue at LeoVegas, Betsafe and VeraJohn, so probably a problem with one of Scientific Games servers.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have found a free play version, and it's a standard "double zero" roulette game if you don't bet on the key, but if you bet on the key, instead of paying the fixed amount for a single number bet, it spins a wheel where it can pay a fixed odds value between 20x and the jackpot value which is either 50x or 100x, depending on the setting. If the game is random, there is no way it's the same TRTP on both the 50x and 100x setting. The 50x is a reduction in TRTP because one of the possible outcomes from winning the key bet has been halved. The others are fixed multipliers, so the game would have to be compensated in some way such that the reduction of the top value from 100x to 50x was countered by changing the distribution of probabilities of landing on the lower fixed values.

I don't buy the "managing risk" argument as we are talking about a mere 100x stake win, and most slots can deliver far in excess of this. I would accept that it reduces the RTP to something more in keeping with slots, around 94-95%, as opposed to the TRTP of something like single zero European roulette.

 

[colinsunderland]

Don't believe its fixed. You can see the same issue at LeoVegas, Betsafe and VeraJohn, so probably a problem with one of Scientific Games servers.

Unless I'm looking at the wrong game its showing 50x for me?

 

[colinsunderland]

I have found a free play version, and it's a standard "double zero" roulette game if you don't bet on the key, but if you bet on the key, instead of paying the fixed amount for a single number bet, it spins a wheel where it can pay a fixed odds value between 20x and the jackpot value which is either 50x or 100x, depending on the setting. If the game is random, there is no way it's the same TRTP on both the 50x and 100x setting. The 50x is a reduction in TRTP because one of the possible outcomes from winning the key bet has been halved. The others are fixed multipliers, so the game would have to be compensated in some way such that the reduction of the top value from 100x to 50x was countered by changing the distribution of probabilities of landing on the lower fixed values.

I don't buy the "managing risk" argument as we are talking about a mere 100x stake win, and most slots can deliver far in excess of this. I would accept that it reduces the RTP to something more in keeping with slots, around 94-95%, as opposed to the TRTP of something like single zero European roulette.

I agree. 100x is nothing, there are much bigger wins every day posted on here in the screenshots thread, unless you are allowed a much bigger stake on roulette, I don't see the problem. Even then you just limit the stake, not pay half what you say the payout is. What next, a wildline on DOA paying 1000x instead of 3000 to minimize risk?

 

[Mr Wild]

Unless I'm looking at the wrong game its showing 50x for me?

Real money offers 50x and on demo version it shows 100x. Log out and check, as you cannot play demo version as logged in at Videoslots. However, this seem to be a global thing for Scientific Games as Betsafe, LeoVegas and VeraJohn has the same. But as previous poster said, Casumo showed same on both demo and real.

I dont believe its a regulation issue. As long as its clearly state that max win is 50x when you play with real money. Which it does.

 

[MrSilver]

The casinos obviously have more control over certain aspects of games than most are willing to admit

Yeah, that's what i'm thinking as well....But after all, we're here for Entertainment and not really win anything

 

[vinylweatherman]

Real money offers 50x and on demo version it shows 100x. Log out and check, as you cannot play demo version as logged in at Videoslots. However, this seem to be a global thing for Scientific Games as Betsafe, LeoVegas and VeraJohn has the same. But as previous poster said, Casumo showed same on both demo and real.

I dont believe its a regulation issue. As long as its clearly state that max win is 50x when you play with real money. Which it does.

The regulation issue is that free play must be the same as real play, so if it's 50x for real money play, it must also be 50x for demo play.

The maths doesn't lie though, downgrading the top pot payout from 100x to 50x lowers the TRTP of the game. If this was really about "managing risk", then the same effect can be achieved by halving the max bet allowed on the key.

This game has been adapted from the FOBTs seen in betting shops, and many people don't think it's random on FOBTs.

 

[itsover2014]

The regulation issue is that free play must be the same as real play, so if it's 50x for real money play, it must also be 50x for demo play.

The maths doesn't lie though, downgrading the top pot payout from 100x to 50x lowers the TRTP of the game. If this was really about "managing risk", then the same effect can be achieved by halving the max bet allowed on the key.

This game has been adapted from the FOBTs seen in betting shops, and many people don't think it's random on FOBTs.

Also, the game rules clearly state:

Place a bet on the Key Bet and the pot value will be displayed. This can be up to a maximum of 100x the Key Bet Stake. The Key Bet Ring Spins every game and highlights the award of a multiplier or pot position for a winning Key Bet wager. The roulette wheel will then spin, if the ball lands in the Key Bet position and the player has wagered on this position, they will win the highlighted award.

 

[Dan.Videoslots]

Hi all,

This error is a configuration setting that only Scientific Games can fix and nothing that we can solve. So we have decided to remove the game from our site until the investigation is done and we will inform you when the error is fixed.

We will also compensate all players that have won on the "Key Bet Feature" to make this 100% fair and correct.

I hope you all an amazing Tuesday.

Br,

Daniel

 

[Jono777]

The casinos obviously have more control over certain aspects of games than most are willing to admit

I have days when I have my doubts (EG: casinos you always lose at) but its has been 'drummed' into me now.

The recent Rizk offices visit by Bryan and nikantw put my mind at rest that all is above board

 

[Melvin - Panda]

I agree. 100x is nothing, there are much bigger wins every day posted on here in the screenshots thread, unless you are allowed a much bigger stake on roulette, I don't see the problem. Even then you just limit the stake, not pay half what you say the payout is. What next, a wildline on DOA paying 1000x instead of 3000 to minimize risk?

Not sure about this specific game, but in DOA the risk is managed in another way, your maxbet is wayyy lower than on for instance Starburst. There are slots where you are allowed up to $400/spin, if this was allowed on DoA and you'd hit a 3000x multiplier that would be an instant 1.2 million hit.

It's a combination of volatility and maxbet that determine the risk for the casino. Volatility of a game can't be changed, but betting restrictions can be configured.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Not sure about this specific game, but in DOA the risk is managed in another way, your maxbet is wayyy lower than on for instance Starburst. There are slots where you are allowed up to $400/spin, if this was allowed on DoA and you'd hit a 3000x multiplier that would be an instant 1.2 million hit.

It's a combination of volatility and maxbet that determine the risk for the casino. Volatility of a game can't be changed, but betting restrictions can be configured.

That's how it should be done. Different games have always had different limits. Changing the paytable "manages the house margin" rather than the risk of the player "breaking the bank" with a lucky bet.

It seems that what we have here is a choice of two different RTP settings for this game, not very different as they result from a change to just one of the 8 possible outcomes on the key bet, with the other 37 positions paying as per a regular roulette game.

 

[Googobucs]

thanks for taking ownership

After reading this entire thread I am a little disappointed that no one thanked VideoSlots for jumping right in and taking ownership of this immediately and doing a great job of resolving the issue.

I Can't play at your casino but thanks Video Slots for taking care of player issues like this in such an open way and doing the right thing for the players. This is good example for other operators to see.

 

[ProbabilityZero]

After reading this entire thread I am a little disappointed that no one thanked VideoSlots for jumping right in and taking ownership of this immediately and doing a great job of resolving the issue.

I Can't play at your casino but thanks Video Slots for taking care of player issues like this in such an open way and doing the right thing for the players. This is good example for other operators to see.

Indeed!

Just read this thread Never played this game but thanks Dan in your quick resolution and integrity to the players concerned

 

[colinsunderland]

After reading this entire thread I am a little disappointed that no one thanked VideoSlots for jumping right in and taking ownership of this immediately and doing a great job of resolving the issue.

I Can't play at your casino but thanks Video Slots for taking care of player issues like this in such an open way and doing the right thing for the players. This is good example for other operators to see.

I just came on to do that actually however to be fair, they didn't do it straight away, customer service basically told the OP 'tough shit, we don't want anything to do with it. Its not the first time people have posted on here saying they tried customer service, didn't get anywhere and had to post to get a problem resolved, and you shouldn't have to do that. How many people don't use this forum, have had a problem and it hasn't been sorted out due to the dire customer service Videoslots give at times?

Having said that, well done Dan for posting, you didn't have to but the fact you can admit there is a problem is excellent as many casinos won't, and a massive well done for removing the slot and paying everyone who has been paid short by it.

 

[interlog]

I just came on to do that actually however to be fair, they didn't do it straight away, customer service basically told the OP 'tough shit, we don't want anything to do with it. Its not the first time people have posted on here saying they tried customer service, didn't get anywhere and had to post to get a problem resolved, and you shouldn't have to do that. How many people don't use this forum, have had a problem and it hasn't been sorted out due to the dire customer service Videoslots give at times?

Having said that, well done Dan for posting, you didn't have to but the fact you can admit there is a problem is excellent as many casinos won't, and a massive well done for removing the slot and paying everyone who has been paid short by it.

Agreed, and it has been acknowledged by Dan that their customer services can be improved upon. That is a positive statement too.

 

[spintee]

I just came on to do that actually however to be fair, they didn't do it straight away, customer service basically told the OP 'tough shit, we don't want anything to do with it. Its not the first time people have posted on here saying they tried customer service, didn't get anywhere and had to post to get a problem resolved, and you shouldn't have to do that. How many people don't use this forum, have had a problem and it hasn't been sorted out due to the dire customer service Videoslots give at times?

Having said that, well done Dan for posting, you didn't have to but the fact you can admit there is a problem is excellent as many casinos won't, and a massive well done for removing the slot and paying everyone who has been paid short by it.

I take my hat off for what the reps at video slots do here, Just if all customer service was as knowledgeable and as swift, It boggles my mind why most 90+ % of CS are useless, All this does is piss's of the players even more, As isn't it obvious that we speak to them due to problems most of the time, Now if they can not sort it or know whats bloody going on than get somebody that does,

I bet most of them have nether played a fruit machine or even a game of snap, It should not take somebody to surf the net than find a forum to sort problems out, I feel bad about the thousands of players that have been shafted due to CS talking rubbish or not knowing whats the score, Not every person know about coming to these sort of joints to get things resolved,

I do know there is a few is a few casino's that are top class and actually know whats going on but it's rare

 

[colinsunderland]

I take my hat off for what the reps at video slots do here, Just if all customer service was as knowledgeable and as swift, It boggles my mind why most 90+ % of CS are useless, All this does is piss's of the players even more, As isn't it obvious that we speak to them due to problems most of the time, Now if they can not sort it or know whats bloody going on than get somebody that does,

I bet most of them have nether played a fruit machine or even a game of snap, It should not take somebody to surf the net than find a forum to sort problems out, I feel bad about the thousands of players that have been shafted due to CS talking rubbish or not knowing whats the score, Not every person know about coming to these sort of joints to get things resolved,

I do know there is a few is a few casino's that are top class and actually know whats going on but it's rare

Completely agree.
I never understand why casinos (or any company for that matter) spend loads of money on setting up, then scrimp on the one thing that really makes a difference.

As this is a thread about VS, we know they all work in the same office, so why, when customer service are asked a question they don't know the answer to, do they not shout 'hey dan/phil/whoever,I'm stuck with this one can you help' instead of making some shit up that is completely wrong? I don't know how many work there but get the impression there isn't many so how hard can it be to train them a little better and get them to ask someone more senior rather than making up answers if they don't know the answer!

I love videoslots, they get about 80-90% of my deposits, but customer service is pretty poor.

One of the best I have used is SkyVegas, never had a single problem with them that hasn't been sorted in minutes over live chat, in about 6 years.

 

[benmooe]

I bet most of them have nether played a fruit machine or even a game of snap...

Sounds like a wager to me!