Fuming!!!! Redbet locked account midplay!

[Redbet-Andy]

The Electoral Register just doesn't work. It takes too long to get on it, as you say, annually , too long to change, and while most people in the UK are on it, a lot are on at addresses that don't match their real address. Fine or no fine, nobody's worried about it.

Especially in London and large cities. People rent, move often etc

The only way to do it is to verify a players docs.

"The current method is a guarantee that any player who does not appear in these directories will be booted mid session unless they lose their first deposit faster than the system can process the boot."

On the contrary. That was yesterday's method. The current method is different we won't boot anyone for not being on 192/ other registers. We don't only use 192 of course.

Andy

The OP said later




Jackpot Party got it RIGHT. It also left the OP singing their praises, even though they just did what Redbet did, finding no match on the directories and asking for ID.

I didn't mean that players would be asked for documents, just that the electronic directory check would be done simply to determine whether the player had to be ID checked straight away, or whether it could wait till the first withdrawal. Clearly in the OPs case, the documents had to be verified before any play could be allowed, but the way it was done meant that the player got booted mid session with only £3 left.

The current method is a guarantee that any player who does not appear in these directories will be booted mid session unless they lose their first deposit faster than the system can process the boot.

The one directory that has to be kept up to date by law in the UK is the electoral register. Everyone who is 18 must appear on it, and failure to register can get you a £1000 fine. The three licensed credit reference agencies have access to this register in order to provide credit and ID checks on potential customers of a business. Directories like 192 are NOT allowed to sell data from the full electoral register, they can only use data that already appears in the public domain, such as the phone directory, edited electoral register, and information passed to it by the agreement of the persons concerned (usually through letting businesses share their data with "selected third parties").

In fact, the UK government believes this system is BETTER in terms of security than having national ID cards which can be forged.

If casinos as an industry have a problem with the current system, take it up with the government via the UK Gambling Commission. The move to compulsory secondary licensing presents an opportunity to lobby for changes that improve the experience for players, and make it easier for casinos to comply with KYC procedures.

The OP is not completely "off the grid", they have a bank card, so would have had to pass the bank's own KYC procedures. Having obtained a card, the OP would then have a credit record with the credit reference agencies which would allow their services to be used for an ID check against the full electoral roll.

This system only really fails if someone has recently changed their address, and this is because the electoral roll works to an annual cycle, updating itself every Autumn. Directories like 192 are even more prone to failure under these circumstances, as they have to wait for the change to appear in the public domain before they can get hold of the data.

I am puzzled as to why this is so rare, a 192 check should be producing duff results more often.

I have (out of curiosity) looked at the 192 records of friends and family, and there have been a number of mistakes in the record, mostly the omission of someone who is over 18 and should appear, alongside the appearance of a minor - which should not be happening.

 

[mimi26]

Well I have a question..........I have no driving licence or passport so what I.D would I need???

 

[Respin_Ftw]

Well I have a question..........I have no driving licence or passport so what I.D would I need???

A lawyer.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The Electoral Register just doesn't work. It takes too long to get on it, as you say, annually , too long to change, and while most people in the UK are on it, a lot are on at addresses that don't match their real address. Fine or no fine, nobody's worried about it.

Especially in London and large cities. People rent, move often etc
The only way to do it is to verify a players docs.

"The current method is a guarantee that any player who does not appear in these directories will be booted mid session unless they lose their first deposit faster than the system can process the boot."

On the contrary. That was yesterday's method. The current method is different we won't boot anyone for not being on 192/ other registers. We don't only use 192 of course.

Andy

Surely the same is true of these other directories, yet you are using them. If the ONLY way is to verify a players' documents, surely decisions should ONLY be made after a player has been given the opportunity to have their documents verified.

Although now "yesterday's system", you WERE making decisions based on these directories, and locking players out before they had been given a fair chance to send in their documents.

In fact, where people move around more than once a year, such as renters, even the documents you verify will struggle to keep up to date.

The true "only way" would be for the industry itself to cooperate in creating it's own form of player verification, one that would not be affected by players moving around or failing to register on the electoral roll.

One possibilty is biometrics, starting off with a thorough verification of a player before linking the data to a biometric such as a fingerprint scan, or facial recognition dataset. The player would need either a fingerprint scanner or webcam each time they played, and this would be used to verify them when they logged on, not just when they created an account or withdrew.

It would severely dent the "gnoming" industry, as friends are unlikely to lend out their fingers for a cut in the proceeds! It would also detect someone else playing on an account, such as a minor in the household or a hacker. It could also go some way towards defeating bots.

 

[rena35]

I tried to deposit and play recently and the casino declined my deposit.I thought something was wrong with my cc but the casino wanted docs before a deposit was accepted.First time this has happened to me at a casino but maybe thats a good thing

 

[Redbet-Andy]

Well I have a question..........I have no driving licence or passport so what I.D would I need???

Yep, sorry Mimi you'll need to try and find a casino that will accept players without a photo ID.
The only way I can think you may be able to do that is to play at one of the online casinos that is tied to an offline casino, like Gala etc.
Go down there, get registered, have your photo taken and perhaps there's a way to tie that back into online?
All the best
Andy

 

[baldidiot]

Well I have a question..........I have no driving licence or passport so what I.D would I need???

I vaguely remember something about a UK photo ID card you can apply for. It's meant as proof of age for people without driving licences/passports but I'm guessing it could be used to verify your identity - although you might want to check with a casino first if they'd accept it.

More info:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Or get a passport and go on holiday

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yep, sorry Mimi you'll need to try and find a casino that will accept players without a photo ID.
The only way I can think you may be able to do that is to play at one of the online casinos that is tied to an offline casino, like Gala etc.
Go down there, get registered, have your photo taken and perhaps there's a way to tie that back into online?
All the best
Andy

This is a bad answer. You should be using the guidance issued by the UK government in such situations (where it involves UK players). The government do NOT intend this to be a problem, and expect ALL citizens to have equal access to services that have KYC requirements.

Casinos don't need a photo in any case, it is the document that matters, particularly the credibilty of the issuing office, and if that is "government", it is the highest level of credibilty one can get.

There is a simple solution. Rather than telling the player to go elsewhere, the casino should work with the player to find another way to validate their ID. It should even be possible to do so in a manner that involves a photo, such as the use of the UK "pass" card system used for age verification at many venues, including land casinos, as well as shops selling age restricted products, pubs, clubs, etc.

There needs to be a better solution as many players, particularly new ones, have no idea that this will ever be a problem, and most casinos happily take their deposits, and the problem only emerges once a withdrawal is requested.

If casinos continue as an industry to ignore this problem, they are going to steadily screw over an increasing number of UK players, and the risk is that the issue will grow big enough to prod the government or office of fair trading to do something about it. The problem is that if the prod has to come from this direction, what follows can sometimes be a "knee jerk" implementation of regulations that do not work well for operators, but justified on the grounds that the industry had plenty of time to deal with the issue itself, but failed.

Changes are already coming, and under these changes operators will no longer be able to hide behind offshore jurisdictions when dealing with UK players. Complaints that are currently deflected to ineffective jurisdictions like Malta will end up in the hands of UK regulators, and this will not just involve the UKGC, but bodies like the OFT, ASA, and the Unfair Business Practices legislation. The latter is the most important, because it is not absolute, but looks at whether the overall contract between consumer and business is "fair" to the consumer. Unlike the present, the fairness of the relationship will be judged under UK law, not that of the primary licensing jurisdiction.

The above experience of a deposit being declined until suitable ID has been provided would in fact be fair as no money has been taken nor service provided at the point where service might be declined through lack of suitable ID. It is where money is taken, and service provided, that a problem could arise under the unfair business practices legislation if a withdrawal was declined because of a requirement that was deemed too onerous on the consumer. Insisting that they hold a driving license at this stage would be thrown out as being unfair, as ability to drive has nothing whatsoever to do with entering into a contract with an online business. I would expect the legislation would cause the business to be told they must use the UK giudance on KYC when it comes to verification of ID, and the customer could claim that by providing the items covered by this list, they have done what is necessary in law for the operator to be able to properly comply with KYC and anti money laundering rules.

Like the banks (and Betfair for that matter), I expect online operators would settle individual cases quietly once it became clear the player was moving towards taking court action, and we would not actually see anything in the way of court decisions setting a precedent.

 

[Redbet-Andy]

This is a bad answer.

Well I am sorry, I am only trying to help...
The fact is we don't accept non photo ID, nor do many casinos and I'm trying to help this player find a way to play online.
Like any establishment, regardless of what guidelines state, casinos are allowed to choose who they have as customers.

Perhaps you can help this player find somewhere to play.

 

[mimi26]

Well I am sorry, I am only trying to help...
The fact is we don't accept non photo ID, nor do many casinos and I'm trying to help this player find a way to play online.
Like any establishment, regardless of what guidelines state, casinos are allowed to choose who they have as customers.

Perhaps you can help this player find somewhere to play.

Thanks for your answers, i already have a regular casino so all is good,its just a shame I wont be able to play at yours because of the lack of ID

 

[Redbet-Andy]

Thanks for your answers, i already have a regular casino so all is good,its just a shame I wont be able to play at yours because of the lack of ID

Ahh OK, that's great!
If I were you I'd email them to make sure that you're OK longer term (depending where it is they may require Photo ID only after your total withdrawals reach 3200 or so), just to cover yourself.
Of course if you've passed that already you seem to be cleared.
All the best!
Andy

 

[spintee]

Some one mentioned netent? This is the only group that ask for I,D from me from any sites I have ever played, mostly cause I stick to my old haunts, 32red laddys, sky ect, Even still I only was asked after a witharaw was in place, But problem is I have no photo I.D,
Yes this day and age its the norm to have photo I.D but being baned from driving and nether no need for a passport I was a bit stuck, But (mrgreen) was 1 of the best I have dealt with, They rang me up even low the cost was free, They wanted I.D from two difrent people plus a bill and copy of my card, This when another problem arise, As I used a paypal card it had no numbers on? after a long story I recived my wins to another acoount (bank) and couldnt be any more helpfull, If I had just used my card @ had photo I.D than I think it would of been instant

 

[mimi26]

Ahh OK, that's great!
If I were you I'd email them to make sure that you're OK longer term (depending where it is they may require Photo ID only after your total withdrawals reach 3200 or so), just to cover yourself.
Of course if you've passed that already you seem to be cleared.
All the best!
Andy

Thanks Andy, I have been playing at my current casino for years, I can go into the shop (Ladbrokes) and withdraw my winnings so its never been a problem, Thanks for the advice. But maybe you could look into the ID issue as many people have government issued letters etc etc that are legit used as ID for other things. It just seems a shame that players are excluded because they dont have photo ID

 

[Nifty29]

This is a bad answer. You should be using the guidance issued by the UK government in such situations (where it involves UK players). The government do NOT intend this to be a problem, and expect ALL citizens to have equal access to services that have KYC requirements.

Casinos don't need a photo in any case, it is the document that matters, particularly the credibilty of the issuing office, and if that is "government", it is the highest level of credibilty one can get.

There is a simple solution. Rather than telling the player to go elsewhere, the casino should work with the player to find another way to validate their ID. It should even be possible to do so in a manner that involves a photo, such as the use of the UK "pass" card system used for age verification at many venues, including land casinos, as well as shops selling age restricted products, pubs, clubs, etc.

There needs to be a better solution as many players, particularly new ones, have no idea that this will ever be a problem, and most casinos happily take their deposits, and the problem only emerges once a withdrawal is requested.

If casinos continue as an industry to ignore this problem, they are going to steadily screw over an increasing number of UK players, and the risk is that the issue will grow big enough to prod the government or office of fair trading to do something about it. The problem is that if the prod has to come from this direction, what follows can sometimes be a "knee jerk" implementation of regulations that do not work well for operators, but justified on the grounds that the industry had plenty of time to deal with the issue itself, but failed.

Changes are already coming, and under these changes operators will no longer be able to hide behind offshore jurisdictions when dealing with UK players. Complaints that are currently deflected to ineffective jurisdictions like Malta will end up in the hands of UK regulators, and this will not just involve the UKGC, but bodies like the OFT, ASA, and the Unfair Business Practices legislation. The latter is the most important, because it is not absolute, but looks at whether the overall contract between consumer and business is "fair" to the consumer. Unlike the present, the fairness of the relationship will be judged under UK law, not that of the primary licensing jurisdiction.

The above experience of a deposit being declined until suitable ID has been provided would in fact be fair as no money has been taken nor service provided at the point where service might be declined through lack of suitable ID. It is where money is taken, and service provided, that a problem could arise under the unfair business practices legislation if a withdrawal was declined because of a requirement that was deemed too onerous on the consumer. Insisting that they hold a driving license at this stage would be thrown out as being unfair, as ability to drive has nothing whatsoever to do with entering into a contract with an online business. I would expect the legislation would cause the business to be told they must use the UK giudance on KYC when it comes to verification of ID, and the customer could claim that by providing the items covered by this list, they have done what is necessary in law for the operator to be able to properly comply with KYC and anti money laundering rules.

Like the banks (and Betfair for that matter), I expect online operators would settle individual cases quietly once it became clear the player was moving towards taking court action, and we would not actually see anything in the way of court decisions setting a precedent.

Really?

You should leave the legalities to the lawyers. I'm pretty sure casinos like redbet, and any decent casino, would have specialist lawyers on retainer, so I'm also pretty sure they know what's OK for redbet to do or not do.

Are you honestly saying that redbet "must" accept non-photo ID because UK citizens must have equal access to services? Do you really think the UK gov had online casinos in mind? I seriously doubt any government could force any business to accept custom that they don't want.

If the ID requirements are clearly stated on the website, and they include photo ID, then I don't see the problem. If the player doesn't bother to read the terms, it is tough cookies. If they're not sure, they should contact the casino. Its really not that difficult.

If you were to go back over the years here at cm, you would be lucky to find a dozen examples of UK players being "screwed" due to insufficient ID. The fact is, its just not the big issue you make it out to be.

 

[mimi26]

Really?

You should leave the legalities to the lawyers. I'm pretty sure casinos like redbet, and any decent casino, would have specialist lawyers on retainer, so I'm also pretty sure they know what's OK for redbet to do or not do.

Are you honestly saying that redbet "must" accept non-photo ID because UK citizens must have equal access to services? Do you really think the UK gov had online casinos in mind? I seriously doubt any government could force any business to accept custom that they don't want.

If the ID requirements are clearly stated on the website, and they include photo ID, then I don't see the problem. If the player doesn't bother to read the terms, it is tough cookies. If they're not sure, they should contact the casino. Its really not that difficult.

If you were to go back over the years here at cm, you would be lucky to find a dozen examples of UK players being "screwed" due to insufficient ID. The fact is, its just not the big issue you make it out to be.

Your right its not a big issue at all, well not for me, as I would not deposit funds at any casino that required such ID, however I feel it is an issue for the casinos as they are excluding players who don't have such ID so are basically missing out on my custom which is a shame really. I play at 32red and Ladbrokes and I have never been asked for docs but I joined them years ago so don't know if t was different then

 

[Redbet-Andy]

Nice one Mimi, and thanks a lot for bringing this up.
We're going to look into acceptable ID alternatives to see if there's an easier option for UK players as a result of the conversation this kicked off in the office.
Cheers!
Andy

Your right its not a big issue at all, well not for me, as I would not deposit funds at any casino that required such ID, however I feel it is an issue for the casinos as they are excluding players who don't have such ID so are basically missing out on my custom which is a shame really. I play at 32red and Ladbrokes and I have never been asked for docs but I joined them years ago so don't know if t was different then

 

[spintee]

One possibilty is biometrics, starting off with a thorough verification of a player before linking the data to a biometric such as a fingerprint scan, or facial recognition dataset. The player would need either a fingerprint scanner or webcam each time they played, and this would be used to verify them when they logged on, not just when they created an account or withdrew.

Your the man vinylweatherman, I agree with all you responses, You would think with all the tech out now days it would cut out all the problems, just think all the time that will be saved and cut out the fruad,
I do not think it will take much for this to happen as all the softwares out there,

All best Tee

 

[mimi26]

Nice one Mimi, and thanks a lot for bringing this up.
We're going to look into acceptable ID alternatives to see if there's an easier option for UK players as a result of the conversation this kicked off in the office.
Cheers!
Andy

Thats great news

 

[spintee]

Thats great news

Im the same no photo i.d, I have only had 1 problem wich I have put in this post, but got around it, I stick to my same haunts, such as laddys, sky, party ect where nether been asked for i.d, but the way every things going looks like I be sending of for a renewal of my driving licance

Any way gl

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well I am sorry, I am only trying to help...
The fact is we don't accept non photo ID, nor do many casinos and I'm trying to help this player find a way to play online.
Like any establishment, regardless of what guidelines state, casinos are allowed to choose who they have as customers.

Perhaps you can help this player find somewhere to play.

Why?

It can be just as good - the UK government think so.

The problem with casinos is that they are happy to accept the MONEY from a player, and only get funny about the ID after the fact when players win.

You can already see a couple of UK players chiming in because they had no idea this would ever be a problem. Part of the reason is that they won't know it's a problem until they withdraw, and by then it is too late. The casino has accepted the money, so would have broken KYC rules in any case. KYC applies to ALL customers, win or lose, so if a player has lost money, but can't pass KYC, the operator has committed a technical breach of the rules.

The UK authorities may not be so laid back about this under the new regime, and may insist that money made from customers who fail KYC cannot be booked as profit until it has been determined that the player who lost it is legit.

I bet that if this came about, online casinos would suddenly find they CAN accept other forms of ID from these losing players, the incentive being to clear the profit for entry to the annual accounts, rather than having to be booked as a provision against potential future liabilities.

This is no small industry here in the UK, some big high street names are involved - so where is the lobbying of government to introduce a standardised form of photo ID for all adults that will be deemed suitable in the industry.

The ONLY source of photo ID for those that cannot drive could come from the criminal underground given that there is no national ID card scheme in the UK. It already happens with fake driving licenses. The DVLA rely heavily on their database and numberplate recognition to catch unauthorised drivers. A fake license is easy to spot once the police do a stop check as it won't be reflected on the databases at DVLA. The purpose is to make the roads safe, and this is how the systems have been built. They have NOT been built to police the driving license as a proxy for a national ID card.

A Panorama program shown a while ago showed how easy it is to get a fake driving license. One was obtained for David Blunkett, the then home secretary, simply by using information that could be found on public record. It was enough to fool the DVLA into issuing a GENUINE "photo ID" in his name. No-one at the DVLA realised that this was a scam, David Blunkett is BLIND!!!

It would have been easy to fool an online casino with this type of scam, yet less easy to fool them with the non photo ID that forms part of the UK approved list. This is primarily because the information needed to fake them is harder to get hold of, and more documents are required.

Online casinos may not know the extent of things like this because they have so far been fooled, blinded by their faith in photo ID based on those countries that operate a formal national ID card, which is designed SPECIFICALLY to verify someone's ID.

If somneone can pass KYC at the bank, they should be able to pass KYC at an online casino.

As well as pissing off many UK players, they are also turning their backs on a significant part of the market. Some operators will realise this, and make the effort to design their own bespoke KYC procedures for the UK market rather than try to squeeze the UK into the European model most seem to use. It is likely that the operations connected to the high street betting and gambling chains will be the ones to benefit from this end of the market, and they may misuse the monopoly situation this grants them by giving such players a much poorer deal because they can't "shop around" among the online only operations.

Oddly enough, a quirk in the UK system means that whilst many UK citizens would be excluded, EVERY immigrant of whatever type would have the necessary photo ID to play, as there IS a national ID card system for those entering the country, as opposed to having been born here with citizenship rights.

Given the added complication that arose in another thread, it seems that even a government issued photo ID is not necessarily enough, as some government issued photo ID is also being rejected. It is possible that even the UK driving license could end up being rejected at some point, and already the new format for the UK passport seems to be getting rejected at a very small number of casinos. This could lead to an absolute exclusion of all UK players from much of the industry, but I expect the UK government would not complain, as it would make it easier to keep UK betting within the country, and thus easier to tax. Since it would be the operators refusing to take the UK players, not the government putting up barriers, the industry would have no grounds for complaint.

It's odd how photo ID was not such a "deal breaker" when the US market was providing the vast majority of players. It seemed that casinos were accepting ID documents that differed on a state by state basis, some with photo, some without. The US Social Security number was often something that casinos asked for, and this seemed to remove the need for a passport or drivers license. It's also very odd, since there was never a means to verify the information with the US government since businesses were not supposed to have this information to start with, so the only bodies able to use it for verification were US government ones.

I also noticed it wasn't a problem when I started playing online using Neteller. I was told repeatedly that since I had passed the KYC at Neteller, there was no need to pass KYC at individual casinos. It was only when I used a card to deposit that I found documents being requested.

I don't recall EVER having to provide documents to 32Red, yet they are one of the most stable and profitable long term operators in the business. If 32Red can do it without photo ID, then so can every other operator.

32Red may be the place those players should try if others reject them because of no photo ID.

32Red could even use it in their advertising.

"Don't drive, never been abroad - then 32Red is the ONLY casino you can rely upon" (There are others, such cases have come up before, and almost all have been resolved via the rep, and it has involved using an alternative means to verify the players' ID - this has even included casinos that officially say there is no other way).

There is only ONE Solution to this mess, verify players up front. If they don't pass, don't activate the account. It is better than having players deposit, and only then have them find out they could never have been paid any winnings.

 

[Redbet-Andy]

I really don't think this is anywhere near as big a problem as you do. In fact I've never had an issue here or elsewhere that wasn't resolved in the end.
One thing I will say is that there is some cultural/geographical difference.
When I speak to the team here, and at previous places I've worked, the non British staff are amazed that a person wouldn't have any photo ID.
It's just rare everywhere else, it's still pretty unusual in the UK.
What is needed is something like the PASS card which is accepted by the government for things like voting and official ID.
It needs to be cheap, easily accessible and verifiable.
That would mean anyone without a passport or driving licence who had a big win could verify themselves to the satisfaction of any casino without spending a fortune or jumping through hoops.

The fact is that sadly there are some scallies out there who seek to exploit casinos, just as there are scallies who exploit pub fruities, benefits, ID etc.
I love your ideas about biometrics etc but for now they are not yet financially viable.
On the very very rare occasion that that causes a problem I will bend over backwards to help players out.

If I ever fail to help a player out they can of course raise it with our licensing agency and PAB, but I really don't think it will be an issue.

Andy

Why?

It can be just as good - the UK government think so.

The problem with casinos is that they are happy to accept the MONEY from a player, and only get funny about the ID after the fact when players win.

You can already see a couple of UK players chiming in because they had no idea this would ever be a problem. Part of the reason is that they won't know it's a problem until they withdraw, and by then it is too late. The casino has accepted the money, so would have broken KYC rules in any case. KYC applies to ALL customers, win or lose, so if a player has lost money, but can't pass KYC, the operator has committed a technical breach of the rules.

 

[spintee]

Why?

There is only ONE Solution to this mess, verify players up front. If they don't pass, don't activate the account. It is better than having players deposit, and only then have them find out they could never have been paid any winnings.

again I agree, but other people saying this takes to long? Well they should do somthing else about it, cause either way, before or after a depo its still gona take the same amount of time, wouldnt they prefer to aurthrise docs b4 depo, (if they have to) than to be find out tafter the transaction was a forge? surley this takes longer? some1 said eariler on that it will take ages and days to do this? well better to be safe than sorry, And as you said it always hapens when its from aborad? I do not no exacly what procsses goes threw to identify peoples I.D, But all the top class site do not take you threw this, Surley they have things in play what not other sites?
All I want to do is put cash in and play, if win thats good, I do not want to go threw aload of hasstle,
Sorry about grammer and spelling,

 

[vinylweatherman]

I really don't think this is anywhere near as big a problem as you do. In fact I've never had an issue here or elsewhere that wasn't resolved in the end.
One thing I will say is that there is some cultural/geographical difference.
When I speak to the team here, and at previous places I've worked, the non British staff are amazed that a person wouldn't have any photo ID.
It's just rare everywhere else, it's still pretty unusual in the UK.
What is needed is something like the PASS card which is accepted by the government for things like voting and official ID.
It needs to be cheap, easily accessible and verifiable.
That would mean anyone without a passport or driving licence who had a big win could verify themselves to the satisfaction of any casino without spending a fortune or jumping through hoops.

The fact is that sadly there are some scallies out there who seek to exploit casinos, just as there are scallies who exploit pub fruities, benefits, ID etc.
I love your ideas about biometrics etc but for now they are not yet financially viable.
On the very very rare occasion that that causes a problem I will bend over backwards to help players out.

If I ever fail to help a player out they can of course raise it with our licensing agency and PAB, but I really don't think it will be an issue.

Andy

Well, we DO have the pass card, and I have suggested this before as a solution for UK players. The problem is that they are issued by local government and a few other bodies, thus there are a myriad of local formats. It is the pass mark that unites them, which shows that the local scheme has obtained government approval. Here in Bracknell we have the e+ card, our local variant. It provides ID checking for access to local services, such as borrowing library books. It also acts as age verification in shops, clubs, and pubs.

I felt a distinctly lukewarm approach from operators which I suspect was down to there being so many different formats.

The fact that casino staff find it a surprise that there is no national ID card in the UK rather shocking. It means they are bound to jump to false conclusions about a UK player that tells them they don't have any photo ID when it is requested. This then creates a prejudice that can make it hard for the player to get what they are due.

When a UK player is told that having no national ID card is "impossible", and means they must be out to defraud the casino in question, they interpret this as intent to defraud players on the part of the casino. This can be seen through a number of threads where a UK player who runs into this national ID card "stonewall" quickly starts on a "casino bash" of the offending casino.

Canadian players have their national health card. It's issued by the government and has a photo, so should fit the bill in the absence of a proper Canadian national ID card scheme. This is now being rejected as being no good, so I fear players who get the PASS card will end up suffering the same fate. Canada at least have begun the process of rolling out a form of government issued photo ID, but given that the scheme seems barely a year old, casinos are acting prematurely by blocking the health card at this early stage.

UK players really have nothing to fall back on. They CAN easily fool the DVLA in order to get a driving license to make their lives easier, and many elderly people DO this, they declare themselves fit to drive in order to retain a form of photo ID, but don't get behind the wheel if they are morally honest. The other ID that those over 60 get as of right is the bus pass, a photo ID card that entitles them to cheap or free bus travel. There are other forms of photo ID for different services, but again all of different formats. The UK has no overall national scheme.

The passports now being issued do not fit the requirements either, as they don't show the holders' address - this is for security reasons. Much of the passport data is stored electronically, and accessed via the passport number by border police. Biometric passports were planned to hold even less data in "plain text", which meant that to use them access to the passport database would be necessary. It seems now that there is a delay in plans to move to biometric passports.

There really is nothing extra secure about the remote use of photo bearing documents over use of equivalent non photo bearing variants. There is no face to facve interaction between player and casino staff. The only face they see is on the photo, and they have nothing to verify this against. Without face to face contact, having a photo can add nothing to the strength of a document.

 

[Nifty29]

Why?

It can be just as good - the UK government think so.

The problem with casinos is that they are happy to accept the MONEY from a player, and only get funny about the ID after the fact when players win.

You can already see a couple of UK players chiming in because they had no idea this would ever be a problem. Part of the reason is that they won't know it's a problem until they withdraw, and by then it is too late. The casino has accepted the money, so would have broken KYC rules in any case. KYC applies to ALL customers, win or lose, so if a player has lost money, but can't pass KYC, the operator has committed a technical breach of the rules.

The UK authorities may not be so laid back about this under the new regime, and may insist that money made from customers who fail KYC cannot be booked as profit until it has been determined that the player who lost it is legit.

I bet that if this came about, online casinos would suddenly find they CAN accept other forms of ID from these losing players, the incentive being to clear the profit for entry to the annual accounts, rather than having to be booked as a provision against potential future liabilities.

This is no small industry here in the UK, some big high street names are involved - so where is the lobbying of government to introduce a standardised form of photo ID for all adults that will be deemed suitable in the industry.

The ONLY source of photo ID for those that cannot drive could come from the criminal underground given that there is no national ID card scheme in the UK. It already happens with fake driving licenses. The DVLA rely heavily on their database and numberplate recognition to catch unauthorised drivers. A fake license is easy to spot once the police do a stop check as it won't be reflected on the databases at DVLA. The purpose is to make the roads safe, and this is how the systems have been built. They have NOT been built to police the driving license as a proxy for a national ID card.

A Panorama program shown a while ago showed how easy it is to get a fake driving license. One was obtained for David Blunkett, the then home secretary, simply by using information that could be found on public record. It was enough to fool the DVLA into issuing a GENUINE "photo ID" in his name. No-one at the DVLA realised that this was a scam, David Blunkett is BLIND!!!

It would have been easy to fool an online casino with this type of scam, yet less easy to fool them with the non photo ID that forms part of the UK approved list. This is primarily because the information needed to fake them is harder to get hold of, and more documents are required.

Online casinos may not know the extent of things like this because they have so far been fooled, blinded by their faith in photo ID based on those countries that operate a formal national ID card, which is designed SPECIFICALLY to verify someone's ID.

If somneone can pass KYC at the bank, they should be able to pass KYC at an online casino.

As well as pissing off many UK players, they are also turning their backs on a significant part of the market. Some operators will realise this, and make the effort to design their own bespoke KYC procedures for the UK market rather than try to squeeze the UK into the European model most seem to use. It is likely that the operations connected to the high street betting and gambling chains will be the ones to benefit from this end of the market, and they may misuse the monopoly situation this grants them by giving such players a much poorer deal because they can't "shop around" among the online only operations.

Oddly enough, a quirk in the UK system means that whilst many UK citizens would be excluded, EVERY immigrant of whatever type would have the necessary photo ID to play, as there IS a national ID card system for those entering the country, as opposed to having been born here with citizenship rights.

Given the added complication that arose in another thread, it seems that even a government issued photo ID is not necessarily enough, as some government issued photo ID is also being rejected. It is possible that even the UK driving license could end up being rejected at some point, and already the new format for the UK passport seems to be getting rejected at a very small number of casinos. This could lead to an absolute exclusion of all UK players from much of the industry, but I expect the UK government would not complain, as it would make it easier to keep UK betting within the country, and thus easier to tax. Since it would be the operators refusing to take the UK players, not the government putting up barriers, the industry would have no grounds for complaint.

It's odd how photo ID was not such a "deal breaker" when the US market was providing the vast majority of players. It seemed that casinos were accepting ID documents that differed on a state by state basis, some with photo, some without. The US Social Security number was often something that casinos asked for, and this seemed to remove the need for a passport or drivers license. It's also very odd, since there was never a means to verify the information with the US government since businesses were not supposed to have this information to start with, so the only bodies able to use it for verification were US government ones.

I also noticed it wasn't a problem when I started playing online using Neteller. I was told repeatedly that since I had passed the KYC at Neteller, there was no need to pass KYC at individual casinos. It was only when I used a card to deposit that I found documents being requested.

I don't recall EVER having to provide documents to 32Red, yet they are one of the most stable and profitable long term operators in the business. If 32Red can do it without photo ID, then so can every other operator.

32Red may be the place those players should try if others reject them because of no photo ID.

32Red could even use it in their advertising.

"Don't drive, never been abroad - then 32Red is the ONLY casino you can rely upon" (There are others, such cases have come up before, and almost all have been resolved via the rep, and it has involved using an alternative means to verify the players' ID - this has even included casinos that officially say there is no other way).

There is only ONE Solution to this mess, verify players up front. If they don't pass, don't activate the account. It is better than having players deposit, and only then have them find out they could never have been paid any winnings.

What rules? Where does it say that all online casinos must KYC all players before they play/when opening an account? Why aren't there hundreds of court cases involving OCs that don't KYC their players upfront?

Again, you're passing your opinions off as facts. If there was a legal requirement for redbet to do this, their lawyers would be ensuring that they do it. Maybe they should hire you instead, seeing as you claim to know far more than they do

It cannot possibly be down to the operator exclusively to ID their players i.e. it is up to the player to prove their identity when asked. If the operator CAN do it remotely somehow, then great....but you cannot have a situation where a player who cannot be verified this way says "Oh well too bad. I'm not sending any ID, but you still have to pay me. VWM says so."

As I said before, more and more meandering paragraphs about, as Andy points out, a VERY small issue affecting a TINY amount of players.

The solution is VERY simple. It involves a little common sense and proactivity on the player's part, which one would think an intelligent person who cares about being paid their winnings would be prepared to do.

It's easy:

If you don't have photo ID:

1. Read the KYC terms on the casino website. All of them have it. If photo ID is required, then

2. Contact the casino and ask if the ID you HAVE got is acceptable to them as a substitute for photo ID.

3. If they say YES, then send the docs and have them verified, and go play.

4. If they say NO, then your choices are a) obtain some photo ID, or b) play elsewhere.

It really is SO simple, and will avoid ALL situations where a UK player has their account locked/closed and/or winnings retained/declined.

I just don't see why operators should have to spend time, money and resources on solving a problem that can be totally avoided by the player taking a little responsibility. It's not like you only realize you don't have photo ID after you win.....you know in advance there may be a problem, so take steps to remedy it.

As I said before, I can probably count on my hands the times I have seen complaints about UK players not passing KYC and being denied winnings. Some of those involved fraudsters anyway, which is why they didn't pass KYC, and the rest IIRC were sorted out between the parties via a different verification method e.g. notarized docs etc.

Pre-verification of all players new and existing would be a logistical nightmare which would involve players either waiting weeks to be able to start or continue playing. The current system may have it's flaws, but it works as a rule. It is seldom that a GENUINE player finds it impossible to prove their identity to the casino's satisfaction.

Conclusion....it is a NON ISSUE. It is an anomaly that can be easily avoided, and just as easily solved via current processes.

 

[vinylweatherman]

What rules? Where does it say that all online casinos must KYC all players before they play/when opening an account? Why aren't there hundreds of court cases involving OCs that don't KYC their players upfront?

Again, you're passing your opinions off as facts. If there was a legal requirement for redbet to do this, their lawyers would be ensuring that they do it. Maybe they should hire you instead, seeing as you claim to know far more than they do

It cannot possibly be down to the operator exclusively to ID their players i.e. it is up to the player to prove their identity when asked. If the operator CAN do it remotely somehow, then great....but you cannot have a situation where a player who cannot be verified this way says "Oh well too bad. I'm not sending any ID, but you still have to pay me. VWM says so."

As I said before, more and more meandering paragraphs about, as Andy points out, a VERY small issue affecting a TINY amount of players.

The solution is VERY simple. It involves a little common sense and proactivity on the player's part, which one would think an intelligent person who cares about being paid their winnings would be prepared to do.

It's easy:

If you don't have photo ID:

1. Read the KYC terms on the casino website. All of them have it. If photo ID is required, then

2. Contact the casino and ask if the ID you HAVE got is acceptable to them as a substitute for photo ID.

3. If they say YES, then send the docs and have them verified, and go play.

4. If they say NO, then your choices are a) obtain some photo ID, or b) play elsewhere.

It really is SO simple, and will avoid ALL situations where a UK player has their account locked/closed and/or winnings retained/declined.

I just don't see why operators should have to spend time, money and resources on solving a problem that can be totally avoided by the player taking a little responsibility. It's not like you only realize you don't have photo ID after you win.....you know in advance there may be a problem, so take steps to remedy it.

As I said before, I can probably count on my hands the times I have seen complaints about UK players not passing KYC and being denied winnings. Some of those involved fraudsters anyway, which is why they didn't pass KYC, and the rest IIRC were sorted out between the parties via a different verification method e.g. notarized docs etc.

Pre-verification of all players new and existing would be a logistical nightmare which would involve players either waiting weeks to be able to start or continue playing. The current system may have it's flaws, but it works as a rule. It is seldom that a GENUINE player finds it impossible to prove their identity to the casino's satisfaction.

Conclusion....it is a NON ISSUE. It is an anomaly that can be easily avoided, and just as easily solved via current processes.

The rules that the casinos always claim they have to abide by to prevent money laundering. They claim these rules are out of their hands, imposed by international agreement. Odd then that they DON'T properly comply with them when it suits them, but they are a good excuse to screw over the players whilst blaming someone else for it, a bunch of faceless international lawmakers.

If these laws really DID exist, the UK government would also be in trouble for non compliance in not introducing a national ID card scheme that suited these rules.

It is really a case of the casinos' lawyers making it up. KYC does NOT necessarily require photo ID, it is simply a loose framework that any business has to show best efforts have been made to comply, but within the limitations of what is possible.

No way can it be fair to impose an impossible requirement on a consumer, and the OFT agrees. There are dozens of companies that thought they could get away with it, and dozens of companies getting caught out and fined. It's not just casinos, they are all at it, scamming the customer whenever lax rules and regulations present an opportunity. The biggest household names in the UK have been involved, and not all have yet been caught. There are no businesses that can really be trusted, and UK consumers are absolutely fed up with the repeated scandals that they have suffered, and which keep on emerging.

The banks used to try the same BS, refusing to accept anything but photo ID. They got a bollocking from the regulator, and were forced to admit that the whole thing was really designed to screen out low value customers unlikely to do anything other than use their current accounts to store money and pay the bills. They trod on the wrong toes, the DWP who were trying to move towards direct payment of pensions and benefits, but found this being held up by banks not playing ball and allowing many benefit claimants to open accounts. This is how the basic bank account was born, and the banks were told to either play ball, or have the scheme forced upon them. The banks backed down rather than have anything forced on them, and so we have basic bank accounts.

We can also get rid of this "must have photo ID even if the government doesn't operate such a scheme" bullshit if enough pressure is applied. The issue only affects a small number of countries, but it is about big business telling governments how to govern, not something that should be deemed acceptable, even though many people know it goes on behind the scenes.

I have often seen threads where players have asked the casino about ID requirements, and they have been brushed off with an "we'll let you know when the time comes", sometimes followed immediately by pressure to hurry up and make that first deposit. It seems casinos are not willing to tell players that they can never be paid through having the wrong documents until the player has already played and managed to make a first withdrawal.

It's nothing to with it being impossible to pre verify players, it's a "can't be arsed" attitude from casinos. However, it is sometimes truly impossible for UK players to provide photo ID, not just a case of "can't be arsed".

People from elsewhere just can't see the problem because for them this isn't a problem as they already have a national ID card, and one that they have found casinos always accept.

For the UK government, this shouldn't be a problem, but with online gambling becoming mainstream, it may be an issue that cannot be ignored as only affecting a niche hobby community for much longer.

How about some BIG print warnings to players about this, not just having something squirreled away in the smallprint about withdrawal procedures, and what "may" be required in vague terms. Players need SPECIFICS, such as naming which documents "will" be requested before paying a withdrawal. A vague "some form of government issued ID" is what I see in many casinos' guidance on the matter. I also see "drivers license" named specifically, but then casinos reject many UK driving licenses simply because they were issued many years ago and are a paper format.