Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

[ChopleyIOM]

Bloody hell, about time that some form of regulatory agency stepped in and did take responsibility, beggars belief that in these times of regulations etc that the only people involved in exposing it are completely independent entities with absolutely no leverage whatsoever (no disrespect intended).

Indeed.

I can honestly say that it's dreadful episodes such as this that really make me question the sanity of gambling online at all.

It's safe to assume that for every 'gaffed game' that gets called out as has happened here, several more escape detection, and I absolutely do not like the thought of me getting hammered by one of them.

The lack of any kind of meaningful response from the parties involved here not only harms them, it harms the entire online gambling industry.

To the man on the street, this kind of thing must absolutely stink to high heaven. It's no wonder that online gambling has such a trust problem IMO.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

... contacting the UKGC to discuss the licensing of Realistic Games

I have a full response from the UKGC that I have not published here, pending their okay. Send me an e-mail and I'll forward it to you.

 

[Seventh777]

Indeed.

I can honestly say that it's dreadful episodes such as this that really make me question the sanity of gambling online at all.

It's safe to assume that for every 'gaffed game' that gets called out as has happened here, several more escape detection, and I absolutely do not like the thought of me getting hammered by one of them.

The lack of any kind of meaningful response from the parties involved here not only harms them, it harms the entire online gambling industry.

To the man on the street, this kind of thing must absolutely stink to high heaven. It's no wonder that online gambling has such a trust problem IMO.

Agreed 100%, if it wasn't for Katie's well presented OP I wouldn't have even bothered replying, let alone putting her onto Eliot, it's been a fair few weeks now and ample time for some form of regulatory agency to step in and take control, maybe now Bryan has the time he can set the wheels in motion .

 

[ThePOGG]

Can anyone provide a comprehensive list of Realistic games? I found this list of slots games - hxxp://www.igamingsuppliers.com/vendor/realistic-games-ltd/ - that covers slots games, most of which i was aware of already. Specifically what i'm looking for is table games.

I've now emailed Betfred, Bet365, Boyle, NordicBet and Stan James. I'll follow up with Sporting Bet tomorrow as i don't currently work with them.

 

[thelawnet]

My analysis is:

Item 1

Finsoft use code from other suppliers, and alter it. For instance the Orbis/Electracade game Aladdin's Treasure is found at Ladbrokes, and uses the files
AladdinGame.swf and AladdinLogo.swf

The XML message sent at Ladbrokes is:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!DOCTYPE GameRequest SYSTEM "http://www.orbisuk.com/igf/dtd/GameRequest.dtd"><GameRequest><Header><GameDetails class="Aladdin" name="FreeAladdin" ver="1" channel="I" free_play="Yes" /><Customer cookie="" is_guest="Yes" balance="498.00" /></Header><Play stake="2.00"><Aladdin action="Low" action_index="0"><AladdinState game_state="18" game_status="B" current_winnings="0.00" current_bank="0.0" current_play="0" /></Aladdin></Play></GameRequest>

At Finsoft sites, the game has been recoded, using the following packages

/Games/AladdinsTreasure/AladdinsTreasureLogo.swf
/Games/AladdinsTreasure/AladdinsTreasureUI_Eng.swf
/Models/HighLow/HighLowProtocol.swf
/Models/HighLow/HighLowModel.swf

the XML request was:

<funplayrequests signature="0b0abcb616faaed8c845ad79773562fa942256070a2684be972d7c355332a0ae" site="BetFred" mode="FUN" game="ALADDINSTREASURE"><funplayrequest id="0" excludenumbers="6" allowduplicates="true" count="1" rangehigh="20" rangelow="1" method="generaterandomnumbers" /></funplayrequests>


Namespaces are under _Packages.IMP (imported?) at Finsoft, but under Packages.com.orbis at Ladbrokes.

Accordingly Finsoft have total responsibility for the games cheating in free play mode.

Item 2

The Realistic Games platform, known as ReGal can be found here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

or here
Outdated URL (Invalid)

They offer American and European Roulette, plus a few slots.

The offending hi-lo games are not offered at these ReGal sites.

Item 3

Finsoft alter the games from third-party providers, so irrespective of Realistic Games, bear the ultimate responsibility for the two or more hi-lo games that cheat in real play mode.

 

[just play]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

 

[Nifty29]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

When you consider the number of games and providers that exist, the actual number of proven cheating games is extremely low.

The OP did their own research, compiled a reasonable amount of data, had an expert review it, and presented it here to take it further. The reason they did this, is because their results led them to believe they were not playing a 100% RTP game as advertised. It was pretty much the same thing when English Harbour got caught cheating with their video poker double up.

The case here shows that particular games from a particular provider are gaffed/cheating/rogue etc.

What the case does NOT show, nor imply, is that any other games from any other providers are cheating. Now, I'm sure that others, like yourself, that have always questioned the fairness/randomness of just about every online casino software ever invented, will use this as a springboard to wave the "It's rigged I tells ya!!" flag referencing this issue every time someone tries to explain that the games ARE fair.

I think I can speak for most people here when I say that, when someone presents a case involving another game/provider e.g. RTG, MGS etc like the OP has in this thread, and the data and conclusions are verified by other experts, we will be all ears and eager to point the finger at the parties involved.

To date, the only "data" presented regarding RTG, MGS, Rival etc is "I lost" or "I don't get as many bonus rounds as I used to" etc etc....based on absolutely NO record keeping or any historical data whatsoever....which is why these threads posts receive the scorn they deserve.

Sorry for the derail, but I knew it was only a matter of time before someone put 2 and 2 together and got 69.

IMO, before ANY casino puts ANY games on their platform from a provider other than their main licensor, they should be tested IN HOUSE. If BF had done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion and they wouldn't be in a world of trouble.

 

[Seventh777]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

As far as slots go hun it's nigh on impossible, no matter what variance a slot is it's theoretical RTP is based on the reel strips and RNG and basically every possible combination that is possible, let's say for arguments sake there are 20 million different possible combinations, of these 15 million are dead spins (no return whatsoever), however unlikely a spell of 15 million dead spins is, it is still within the RTP of that particular slot, you can of course play this slot to the tune of 20 million spins and still avoid hitting every possible combination.

However, gambling features that offer a 50-50 chance of winning per attempt are a lot easier to assess, and should reflect these odds after a certain amount of tries.

 

[just play]

When you consider the number of games and providers that exist, the actual number of proven cheating games is extremely low.

The OP did their own research, compiled a reasonable amount of data, had an expert review it, and presented it here to take it further. The reason they did this, is because their results led them to believe they were not playing a 100% RTP game as advertised. It was pretty much the same thing when English Harbour got caught cheating with their video poker double up.

The case here shows that particular games from a particular provider are gaffed/cheating/rogue etc.

What the case does NOT show, nor imply, is that any other games from any other providers are cheating. Now, I'm sure that others, like yourself, that have always questioned the fairness/randomness of just about every online casino software ever invented, will use this as a springboard to wave the "It's rigged I tells ya!!" flag referencing this issue every time someone tries to explain that the games ARE fair.


I think I can speak for most people here when I say that, when someone presents a case involving another game/provider e.g. RTG, MGS etc like the OP has in this thread, and the data and conclusions are verified by other experts, we will be all ears and eager to point the finger at the parties involved.

To date, the only "data" presented regarding RTG, MGS, Rival etc is "I lost" or "I don't get as many bonus rounds as I used to" etc etc....based on absolutely NO record keeping or any historical data whatsoever....which is why these threads posts receive the scorn they deserve.

Sorry for the derail, but I knew it was only a matter of time before someone put 2 and 2 together and got 69.


IMO, before ANY casino puts ANY games on their platform from a provider other than their main licensor, they should be tested IN HOUSE. If BF had done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion and they wouldn't be in a world of trouble.

To the first bolded part...wth are you talking about? Me? I never scream rigged, I scream I can't win...HUGE difference. Don't add me into some "club" that claims rigged just because of your dislike for me, very childish, but not unexpected.

Second bolded part...It was an honest question, you can't see that? If this game is rigged why can't others be rigged? Pretty simple question I would think, no?

 

[just play]

Indeed.

I can honestly say that it's dreadful episodes such as this that really make me question the sanity of gambling online at all.

It's safe to assume that for every 'gaffed game' that gets called out as has happened here, several more escape detection, and I absolutely do not like the thought of me getting hammered by one of them.

The lack of any kind of meaningful response from the parties involved here not only harms them, it harms the entire online gambling industry.

To the man on the street, this kind of thing must absolutely stink to high heaven. It's no wonder that online gambling has such a trust problem IMO.

Nifty, no response to this?

Is it just me you like to get on?

 

[Seventh777]

To the first bolded part...wth are you talking about? Me? I never scream rigged, I scream I can't win...HUGE difference. Don't add me into some "club" that claims rigged just because of your dislike for me, very childish, but not unexpected.

Second bolded part...It was an honest question, you can't see that? If this game is rigged why can't others be rigged? Pretty simple question I would think, no?

I would like to hasten to add that I thanked nifty for his reply regarding the overall content and not his little dig at you , I would never find fault with a woman that looks like Julia Roberts and has naked pictures to enforce this fact, hell no .

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I would never find fault with a woman that looks like Julia Roberts and has naked pictures to enforce this fact, hell no .

Woah? What now?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nifty, no response to this?

Is it just me you like to get on?

I think everyone at CM has to take a Niftying once in a while, I've had a few myself, one just gets used to it

 

[just play]

I think everyone at CM has to take a Niftying once in a while, I've had a few myself, one just gets used to it

Chopley, no one should have to take a "Niftying" once in a while, it's against forum rules. And I don't get it just once in a while.


I said essentially the same thing you said, but get ragged on, you know why? Because Nifty doesn't like me, very immature.

 

[Seventh777]

And I don't get it just once in a while.

Glad to see someone getting it regularly .

 

[thelawnet]

IMO, before ANY casino puts ANY games on their platform from a provider other than their main licensor, they should be tested IN HOUSE. If BF had done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion and they wouldn't be in a world of trouble.

No casino tests anything inhouse. They rely on their providers to test stuff.

 

[max1mike]

Chopley, no one should have to take a "Niftying" once in a while, it's against forum rules. And I don't get it just once in a while.


I said essentially the same thing you said, but get ragged on, you know why? Because Nifty doesn't like me, very immature.

put him on ignore. it works great.

 

[just play]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

Just to get back on track.

This is an honest question.

 

[Nifty29]

Chopley, no one should have to take a "Niftying" once in a while, it's against forum rules. And I don't get it just once in a while.


I said essentially the same thing you said, but get ragged on, you know why? Because Nifty doesn't like me, very immature.

I hate to drag things up...and I'm not going to do it again...but I remember at the end of 2011 you said some VERY nasty things about me, my family, my body, and my wife right here in public... So, you could say I have no respect for you as a person.

What is really childish is "but you said this to me but not to him!!". Geez...really?

However, it is immaterial. I am arguing a point that is logical and sensible. If you don't think you belong to the "It's rigged" population, I suggest you go and read your posting history. If you have changed your views, then I apologize.

I didn't respond to chopley because I didn't see that remark, and I know he isn't unreasonable and understands that losing doesn't mean games are rigged, so yes, I probably would have responded differently.

I'll do what I should have done a while ago...put you on ignore. It's best for everyone IMO.

Sorry for the derail, but I felt I had to address this issue. Carry on.

 

[Nifty29]

No casino tests anything inhouse. They rely on their providers to test stuff.

Well, given the explosion in multi-provider platforms, it needs to start happening. After all, it appears that the providers themselves cannot be trusted to do it properly themselves. In the past it has been a minor consideration, with most casinos going with one provider (usually a large one). Now it is a different story, with some casinos only taking a few games from smaller providers.

And BTW..,..I didn't say they DID test them, I said they SHOULD...IMO, as I said.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well, given the explosion in multi-provider platforms, it needs to start happening. After all, it appears that the providers themselves cannot be trusted to do it properly themselves.

I realise I'm repeating myself here but this really is the crux of the problem.

Casinos such as Betfred just take in a big pile of games from several software providers, and they have no particular interest in and/or knowledge of any of them, beyond the fact that they want to make money out of them.

Casinos should be, no in fact, casinos HAVE TO BE, invested and interested in the software they're running, otherwise there's nothing standing between us, the players, and cheating software.

And we all know how this one is going to pan out, Betfred will apologise profusely, they'll cut Realistic Games/Finsoft loose, and then they'll carry on just as they were before, they'll still be accredited, and with no more accountability for the games they're promoting with their brand name than they were before this whole affair kicked off.

EDIT - At the very least Betfred should be dropped down to some sort of 'status pending' group, I really can't understand how they're still accredited and a 'Casinomeister's Pick' when they've been caught bang to rights running cheating software.

 

[just play]

I hate to drag things up...and I'm not going to do it again...but I remember at the end of 2011 you said some VERY nasty things about me, my family, my body, and my wife right here in public... So, you could say I have no respect for you as a person.

What is really childish is "but you said this to me but not to him!!". Geez...really?

However, it is immaterial. I am arguing a point that is logical and sensible. If you don't think you belong to the "It's rigged" population, I suggest you go and read your posting history. If you have changed your views, then I apologize.

I didn't respond to chopley because I didn't see that remark, and I know he isn't unreasonable and understands that losing doesn't mean games are rigged, so yes, I probably would have responded differently.

I'll do what I should have done a while ago...put you on ignore. It's best for everyone IMO.

Sorry for the derail, but I felt I had to address this issue. Carry on.

And I was the only one is this scenerio saying nasty things?

Don't act like you know what I think about things, I spend money on online gambling, so don't lump me into your "rigged population".

You didn't respond to Chopley because you didn't want to respond to that particular statement.

Address what issue? You following me around the forum, doing what you can to "rattle" me?

Ignore is a good idea.

 

[Seventh777]

I realise I'm repeating myself here but this really is the crux of the problem.

Casinos such as Betfred just take in a big pile of games from several software providers, and they have no particular interest in and/or knowledge of any of them, beyond the fact that they want to make money out of them.

Casinos should be, no in fact, casinos HAVE TO BE, invested and interested in the software they're running, otherwise there's nothing standing between us, the players, and cheating software.

And we all know how this one is going to pan out, Betfred will apologise profusely, they'll cut Realistic Games/Finsoft loose, and then they'll carry on just as they were before, they'll still be accredited, and with no more accountability for the games they're promoting with their brand name than they were before this whole affair kicked off.

EDIT - At the very least Betfred should be dropped down to some sort of 'status pending' group, I really can't understand how they're still accredited and a 'Casinomeister's Pick' when they've been caught bang to rights running cheating software.

Which brings about the question - What exactly do regulating based agencies regulate when doing the monthly / bi-monthly / quarterly audits etc?.

 

[Nifty29]

Which brings about the question - What exactly do regulating based agencies regulate when doing the monthly / bi-monthly / quarterly audits etc?.

They audit the figures that the casino provides...so it is really just a numbers check

Audits are not run on the actual games/software by third parties AFAIK i.e. they don't visit to inspect etc.

 

[Seventh777]

They audit the figures that the casino provides...so it is really just a numbers check

Audits are not run on the actual games/software by third parties AFAIK i.e. they don't visit to inspect etc.

Ah, I thought it was a more thorough process.