New Slot Announcement Extra Chilli, BTG

[snorky510238]

Had about £10 left at VS today and thought I would low roll on 20p. I don’t play it often but over the time the feature buy had come down to £4.20 so as I wasn’t getting anywhere I thought I may aswell take a chance and buy it. All I can say is I will never bother again as I won a big fat 0. Not 1 win.

 

[lockinlove]

Anyone think this slot is random? It is 100% not at all or even close.

I know of 3 people compiling data who are at 3000 feature buys for the 50/50 and so far the win rate is 28.89% and they believe the slot is actually designed at 33.3%

Also just curious if anyone has ever got 4 wins in a row on it? I only ask cause their data shows they have never won 4 in a row but 35 times they have lost 5 in a row

Just curious if BTG know about this study being done and what they think of this?

 

[goatwack]

Anyone think this slot is random? It is 100% not at all or even close.

I know of 3 people compiling data who are at 3000 feature buys for the 50/50 and so far the win rate is 28.89% and they believe the slot is actually designed at 33.3%

Also just curious if anyone has ever got 4 wins in a row on it? I only ask cause their data shows they have never won 4 in a row but 35 times they have lost 5 in a row

Just curious if BTG know about this study being done and what they think of this?

I pretty much stated the same earlier, it's scripted nonsense with empty promises.

At least the older slots did a better job of disguising the lack of true randomness

 

[snorky510238]

Anyone think this slot is random? It is 100% not at all or even close.

I know of 3 people compiling data who are at 3000 feature buys for the 50/50 and so far the win rate is 28.89% and they believe the slot is actually designed at 33.3%

Also just curious if anyone has ever got 4 wins in a row on it? I only ask cause their data shows they have never won 4 in a row but 35 times they have lost 5 in a row

Just curious if BTG know about this study being done and what they think of this?

I don’t believe for 1 second that any slot can be random in the true sense of the word. If you think about it logically there are many facts to back this up. I don’t believe that all possible combinations/ outcomes are programmed in to start with. If I am wrong on this excuse me but I have never heard of anyone hitting 6 diamonds on “Rhino” yet they are on every reel. Never heard of 5 scatters let alone 6 on DHV. With the millions of spins being done on these slots it would come up sometime. Like I said if it has I haven’t heard of it. As for the gamble wheel on “chilli”. No I could never believe it’s random. Just like any other spinning wheel. The result is generally not in the players favour even when it’s depicted as 50/50. Take the bonus wheel at Rizk there are equal sized segments with various goodies up for grabs. 90% of the time you hit the lowest 5 spins. It’s not a coincidence.

 

[goatwack]

I don’t believe for 1 second that any slot can be random in the true sense of the word. If you think about it logically there are many facts to back this up. I don’t believe that all possible combinations/ outcomes are programmed in to start with. If I am wrong on this excuse me but I have never heard of anyone hitting 6 diamonds on “Rhino” yet they are on every reel. Never heard of 5 scatters let alone 6 on DHV. With the millions of spins being done on these slots it would come up sometime. Like I said if it has I haven’t heard of it. As for the gamble wheel on “chilli”. No I could never believe it’s random. Just like any other spinning wheel. The result is generally not in the players favour even when it’s depicted as 50/50. Take the bonus wheel at Rizk there are equal sized segments with various goodies up for grabs. 90% of the time you hit the lowest 5 spins. It’s not a coincidence.

I think with the Rizk wheel it is not proportional to the prizes available, as they'd probably make it a visual hot mess.

Yet with the Extra Chilli depiction, I was always led to believe it showed a true reflection. And still the odds and results are skewed. Fishy?

 

[snorky510238]

I think with the Rizk wheel it is not proportional to the prizes available, as they'd probably make it a visual hot mess.

Yet with the Extra Chilli depiction, I was always led to believe it showed a true reflection. And still the odds and results are skewed. Fishy?

Yes I know what you mean like there are more free spins than Jackpots etc but still you would get a slightly more mixed result than you do. As for Extra C the gamble from 12 to 16 is supposed to be 60/40 in the players favour. I watched some guy on YouTube buying and gambling every feature (someone posted it on here in this thread I think). You only have to watch that even though it’s a relatively small sample to realise you don’t need to know anymore. It’s horrendous.

 

[goatwack]

....and yet the likes of BTG continue to get away with rinsing everyone

These 'auditors' are doing a terrific job, really. But musn't be too judgemental, they have mortgages to pay after all

 

[nikantw]

...3000 feature buys for the 50/50 and so far the win rate is 28.89% ....

There is no way these numbers are within regulations!!

 

[snorky510238]

....and yet the likes of BTG continue to get away with rinsing everyone

These 'auditors' are doing a terrific job, really. But musn't be too judgemental, they have mortgages to pay after all

Yes that was my next point if these games are being checked properly by people who know what they are doing then it must be possible to tamper with them afterwards as they wouldn’t pass in their current state. It’s either that or getting them passed is a mere formality. There are ways around everything if you know the right man.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I pretty much stated the same earlier, it's scripted nonsense with empty promises.

At least the older slots did a better job of disguising the lack of true randomness

I agree, and I've been saying this for years, I think the first slots where you could really see it obviously were WMS slots from the Jackpot Party days, whereby what you were seeing on the reels clearly bore no resemblance to how the round was functioning or would pay out. (i.e. If the reels were 'real' the slot would be paying out 300% or something equally ridiculous.)

IMO all we're seeing now are more advanced realisations of that concept, but that doesn't mean that the slots aren't random or fair. What I think happens is the slot just pulls out a number from the RNG at the bonus round trigger (which is fair and random), but then engineers the rest of the bonus round around that as nothing more than an extended sound and light show.

Where that becomes problematic of course is that we can then see all sots of 'potential occurrences' that would pay massively, but in reality can never actually occur because what we're really seeing is a sort of 'glitzy frontend show' to distract from what is actually going on with the RNG behind the scenes.

It's not a massive problem insofar as I still do believe, for example, that on Bonanza and Extra Chilli, the bonus round result is a genuine random pick from the pool of possible total outcomes. It is a problem however, when you realise that the slot is engineering a visibly captivating 'what if!.....' scenario on a regular basis, to make that MEGA PAY POTENTIAL constantly look so close to happening. You only need to cast your eyes back to the old MG slots whereby you could work out the entire maths of the slot by looking at the reelstrips, and from there could work out the chance of anything happening, or not happening - to see how much things have changed. (But of course, those 'honest' slots didn't look/feel exciting enough.....)

That's why I think legislation is the way to go. (Because they won't do it voluntarily, but will cheerfully pimp out the INSANE PAY POTENTIAL of slots such as Donuts, without having to back that claim up with any sort of actual stats.) A simple odds table that splits the RTP of the slot into nice simple bands that anyone can understand, as the National Lottery in the UK has to do with their scratchcards. Let players make an informed choice about the slots they want to play. Or, of course, not to play.

 

[goatwack]

Yes that was my next point if these games are being checked properly by people who know what they are doing then it must be possible to tamper with them afterwards as they wouldn’t pass in their current state. It’s either that or getting them passed is a mere formality. There are ways around everything if you know the right man.

I don't think the designers tamper with their games as much as we'd like to think, rather, the auditing is a shocking shit-show.

(cigarette in mouth)

"Go on then lad, do these f***ing 10 spins and then we can get out of here"

Casino:

"Here you go! 10 spins! And they were all different!!"

 

[geordiecolin]

Anyone think this slot is random? It is 100% not at all or even close.

I know of 3 people compiling data who are at 3000 feature buys for the 50/50 and so far the win rate is 28.89% and they believe the slot is actually designed at 33.3%

Also just curious if anyone has ever got 4 wins in a row on it? I only ask cause their data shows they have never won 4 in a row but 35 times they have lost 5 in a row

Just curious if BTG know about this study being done and what they think of this?

But would that data be obsolete unless the RTP of all of those feature buys where included? There has to be a house edge

 

[lockinlove]

I pretty much stated the same earlier, it's scripted nonsense with empty promises.

At least the older slots did a better job of disguising the lack of true randomness

Yeah true. I think they will post all the stuff when its done (what they say anyways) or after they send it to the ilabs and gaming commissions. The one guy streams it every time he streams I think he has lost his marbles to do that. All he does is buy the bonuses lol.

I havent played slots for real money in a long time but doing it for fake money to see...that slot does not feel 50/50 to me at all. I found the times I would try it would be 10 buys at one time and it seemed like every time you would win 3 out of 10. I never won 6/10 ever. I watched a streamer last night log on to do 5 bonus buys. Lost all 5. He was pissed lol. I flipped a coin 10 times just messing around for awhile. never lost 5 in a row. Why is it so common on this slot?

This slot is a double edge sword. Because first you need to gamble and win at least 12 spins cause 99% of the time with 8 spins you will lose badly. So first you have to beat the gamble...then you have to hope the bonus actually pays.

Its probably the biggest money sucking slot in the entire gaming industry. Its basically BTG knocking on your door and asking you for your money and walking away.

 

[lockinlove]

There is no way these numbers are within regulations!!

They are doing 10,000 buys then sending it to some lab company and the gaming commissions then posting it on the forum. Not sure what forum. Everything is video recorded in real time so it cant b put into question

 

[lockinlove]

Yes that was my next point if these games are being checked properly by people who know what they are doing then it must be possible to tamper with them afterwards as they wouldn’t pass in their current state. It’s either that or getting them passed is a mere formality. There are ways around everything if you know the right man.

How can they check such a thing though? Dont they just run a test on it and get the rtp? I dont see how they test to see if the wheel itself is 50/50 and 60/40 etc.

Maybe the BTG rep can chime in on this.

I think the biggest draw for casinos is things like twitch but also the worst for software providers. Its a community that watch each other know each other and if there is any BS going on they will catch on. I think thats why this started because people always go on losing streaks but very very rarely winning streaks on this 50/50 wheel.

The game seems terrible to me lol

 

[lockinlove]

But would that data be obsolete unless the RTP of all of those feature buys where included? There has to be a house edge

I dont think so because of what the BTG rep claimed in here.

I know I have better things to do then 10k features on that disaster

 

[nikantw]

How can they check such a thing though? Dont they just run a test on it and get the rtp? I dont see how they test to see if the wheel itself is 50/50 and 60/40 etc.

Maybe the BTG rep can chime in on this.

I think the biggest draw for casinos is things like twitch but also the worst for software providers. Its a community that watch each other know each other and if there is any BS going on they will catch on. I think thats why this started because people always go on losing streaks but very very rarely winning streaks on this 50/50 wheel.

The game seems terrible to me lol

I asked trans about that IIRC and he said that the labs also test for anomalies like this, the labs don't only see the RTP. I never did a proper research on the subject thought (regulations and lab testing).

 

[geordiecolin]

I dont think so because of what the BTG rep claimed in here.

I know I have better things to do then 10k features on that disaster

To be fair I can never see myself buying a feature on any slot ever because for me it is all about the game play and not just about shit or bust!

My guess is that there will be a fad for and of buy in bonus games over the next few years because it takes so long from conception to being live. But that will die out once they get the spell of the next big thing or innovation.
In part I think that Netent's problem has been that their new games concept went down the wrong track a few years ago and it and we will not see their new vision and concepts for at least another year.
But I can not see the buy in thing having legs

 

[snorky510238]

How can they check such a thing though? Dont they just run a test on it and get the rtp? I dont see how they test to see if the wheel itself is 50/50 and 60/40 etc.

Maybe the BTG rep can chime in on this.

I think the biggest draw for casinos is things like twitch but also the worst for software providers. Its a community that watch each other know each other and if there is any BS going on they will catch on. I think thats why this started because people always go on losing streaks but very very rarely winning streaks on this 50/50 wheel.

The game seems terrible to me lol

I assume they test it over thousands of gambles and see if it comes close to 50/50. That’s the only way you could test it fairly. I mean something can’t be right because if it was random 50/50 the way we are led to believe you would in theory only need to numbers for the rng to pick from (to represent the sectors on the wheel). If that was the case you may get unlucky losing streaks sometimes but in contrast you should get lucky winning streaks this definitely doesn’t seem to be the case.

 

[nikantw]

I don't know if everybody realizes what we are talking about here. If the numbers are true, if someone has video from 3000 real money buy/gamble features and only 866 of them won the first gamble, the chances of that happening are (because that gamble has 50/50 chance):
1/81600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...... that is not all of the "0", it is 119 "0" in the actuall number!
Yes, it is 1 in 8.16E+121!

Can you even begin to realize how big that number is (8.16E+121)? Or how small that chance is? It is 0, ok. The chance for only 866 wins from 3000 is absolutely 0 if the game is not rigged.

 

[sufferinsilence]

If I am wrong on this excuse me but I have never heard of anyone hitting 6 diamonds on “Rhino” yet they are on every reel. .

A fellow forum member @Baitorbebaited has hit 6 diamonds on Raging Rhino. Proof is right here:

 

[mcgameboy]

A fellow forum member @Baitorbebaited has hit 6 diamonds on Raging Rhino. Proof is right here:

I know for a fact that Nicola once got 6 scatters on Rhino as well. It was quite a while ago though. At least 2 years.

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

If the numbers are true, if someone has video from 3000 real money buy/gamble features and only 866 of them won the first gamble

That's the big IF!
@torors - I noticed you did a simulator for Donuts - any chance you can run one on this game to ascertain the fairness of the wheel (which we've previously been assured is fair by @Big Time Gaming )

 

[slotter999]

I don't know if everybody realizes what we are talking about here. If the numbers are true, if someone has video from 3000 real money buy/gamble features and only 866 of them won the first gamble, the chances of that happening are (because that gamble has 50/50 chance):
1/81600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...... that is not all of the "0", it is 119 "0" in the actuall number!
Yes, it is 1 in 8.16E+121!

Can you even begin to realize how big that number is (8.16E+121)? Or how small that chance is? It is 0, ok. The chance for only 866 wins from 3000 is absolutely 0 if the game is not rigged.

If you believe in random then clearly it can never be absolutely 0 chance of an event happening.

 

[nikantw]

If you believe in random then clearly it can never be absolutely 0 chance of an event happening.

121 is a lot of "0". We say 1 in a million like it is something impossible and it has only 6 "0" in there! This has 121!! Try to imagine it.
I am skeptical about the data, not the math. I believe no lab or GC would let an anomaly like this happen.

 

[dunover]

The Donuts wheel is 30% on the first spin, 50% on the 12-16 spins and 16-20 and 20-24 spins. So those figures aren't too wide of the mark.

Don't be fooled by the visuals.

Think about it, you've got the same game as Bonanza essentially so 12 spins should occur every 460 spins with an average return of near 100x.

You buy the feature every spin and if you got 12 spins every time you'd have very little variance over time and an effective RTP of near 100%.

This is why the sub-par results are mainly restricted to the 8-spin bonuses and the better ones when you have 16+ spins. and are likely to hit over 100x bet.

I think people expect a real 50-50 all the way which would mean the slot couldn't function.

The losing gambles on the 8-12 are there to subsidize the larger average results on 16+ spins.

RTP can't be created from nothing, it needs paying for.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The Donuts wheel is 30% on the first spin, 50% on the 12-16 spins and 16-20 and 20-24 spins. So those figures aren't too wide of the mark.

Interesting. Where did you get those numbers from?

 

[paul7388]

I don't know if everybody realizes what we are talking about here. If the numbers are true, if someone has video from 3000 real money buy/gamble features and only 866 of them won the first gamble, the chances of that happening are (because that gamble has 50/50 chance):
1/81600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...... that is not all of the "0", it is 119 "0" in the actuall number!
Yes, it is 1 in 8.16E+121!

Can you even begin to realize how big that number is (8.16E+121)? Or how small that chance is? It is 0, ok. The chance for only 866 wins from 3000 is absolutely 0 if the game is not rigged.

Way i look at your figures is 866 out of 3000 spins is just less than 1 in 3 which to me is quite possible.

Really do not get how you have all these 0's and it is impossible.

From such a small sample of 3000 i think 866 is actually not that bad .

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Way i look at your figures is 866 out of 3000 spins is just less than 1 in 3 which to me is quite possible.

Really do not get how you have all these 0's and it is impossible.

From such a small sample of 3000 i think 866 is actually not that bad .

No disrespect but you're fundamentally misunderstanding how probability works when dealing with things that have an (alleged) 50% chance of occurring. If you think of the first gamble on the wheel the same as a flip of a coin, then it'd be equally unlikely to get the same results after 3000 flips of a coin.

Forget about the usual scenario with slots where they're tested for millions or billions of spins when it comes to reaching T-RTP. It's a far simpler calculation for something that's 50/50.

If there were a roulette wheel with no green 0 and an even number of red and black segments, we could say with absolute certainty that it was rigged if red only came up 866 times in 3000 spins.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think people expect a real 50-50.

I wonder why that is?

 

[dunover]

Way i look at your figures is 866 out of 3000 spins is just less than 1 in 3 which to me is quite possible.

Really do not get how you have all these 0's and it is impossible.

From such a small sample of 3000 i think 866 is actually not that bad .

Actually it is bad IF you were being informed it was a real 50-50 chance, which you aren't. You toss a coin 3000 times you would never vary from the mean EV that significantly. Remember the variation in outcomes relates to the number of trials. So even with 6 outcomes on a Die you throw it 1000 times and it would be possible but extremely unlikely you would get any number less than 100 times as that in itself would be a large deviation from the EV of 167 times.

Put it this way if I was given a coin to toss and it came out heads 2134/3000 times I would be checking the balance and weight of it because although POSSIBLE the odds against are astronomically high.

As this 8-12 wheel is only two outcomes, and they've tested it 3000 times and I've done it 1000 times and done only slightly better I am 100% convinced it's long term win ratio is 30%, 33% at the outside but I'm plumping for 30% because the numbers collected thus far are unlikely even to explain a 3% rise on 30%.

Some things are pretty obvious after even a small sample size because of the limited outcomes. Ask me to give you odds against 6-OAK diamonds on any given spin or purple chillis and then we WOULD need billions of tests runs.

 

[paul7388]

No disrespect but you're fundamentally misunderstanding how probability works when dealing with things that have an (alleged) 50% chance of occurring. If you think of the first gamble on the wheel the same as a flip of a coin, then it'd be equally unlikely to get the same results after 3000 flips of a coin.

Forget about the usual scenario with slots where they're tested for millions or billions of spins when it comes to reaching T-RTP. It's a far simpler calculation for something that's 50/50.

If there were a roulette wheel with no green 0 and an even number of red and black segments, we could say with absolute certainty that it was rigged if red only came up 866 times in 3000 spins.

I would have to disagree. I know what you are saying but sorry 3000 shots on a 50/50 chance with 866 winning is way to low to say certainty.

What would you say the odds are of 40 numbers between 1 and 40 drawing 19 even numbers out of 20 balls drawing. Then 2 minutes later drawing 17 even numbers out of 20 balls drew.

You would think impossible but i have watched it happen in bookies.

It would be quite possible for someone to flip a coin 3000 times and only get heads 866 times.

 

[KasinoKing]

If there were a roulette wheel with no green 0 and an even number of red and black segments, we could say with absolute certainty that it was rigged if red only came up 866 times in 3000 spins.

It doesn't take mathematics to work out that Extra Chilli is definitely NOT giving a true 50/50 chance on the gamble wheel
This gamble is UTTER FILTH. I still play the game now and then - but NEVER use the rigged gamble feature any more.

I haven't been keeping up to speed with this thread: does anyone know if the BTG rep has retracted his claim about the gamble being true 50%?

KK

 

[paul7388]

I would also totally agree that the wheel is not 50/50.

Think that is pretty clear from playing it and from all the posts on here. I was merely pointing out that 30% average out of 3000 spins could never be classed as enough proof.

People can quote any Mathematical statistic they want but although unlikely it is far from impossible to get 866 correct out of 3000 on any 50/50 scenario.

 

[nikantw]

We would like to confirm that the make up of the wheel does indeed reflect the true value RTP.
This would be a compliance issue (if we were not to display this) in Canada where we license games to the British Columbian Lottery and Lotto Quebec.

Another compliance ruling in Extra Chilli is The Danish Gambling Authority along with other jurisdictional authorities, stipulated that we state the best strategy in the help, which in this case is to Gamble with the wheel. However, you need to remember that the difference is as small increase in RTP and if you collect 8 consistently the RTP is 96.15% it's just less volatile. Whether you lose or win on the wheel the RTP remains the same, long term.

The Wheel

The first spin is 50/50 and all proceeding gambles are 60/40 odds on.
However on subsequent gambles the odds diminish to roughly a 1 in 10 chance of getting to 24 from 8.

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 10

With a natural scatter +4 it's 1 in 5 etc...
You can work out the others by adding/removing the wheel progressions.

The principle of the gamble is for players to push up the games volatility or not. A great deal of criticism in the Bonanza thread, was more often than not to do with the free spin frequency, where individuals stated they would like to see the feature more and wouldn't mind if it paid less (I'll have a look for the exact quote later). We have delivered the latter but we have also offered players something new, an option to raise the stakes and play a higher volatility bonus game or not.

With Extra Chilli you have a great deal more options and comparing it to Bonanza is a little bit like comparing apples and oranges. It's like comparing Rainbow Riches to Dead or Alive because that are both 3x5.

Just for the sake of argument, this morning, I donned my tin foil hat, flipped a coin ten times over 20 sessions to see how many it took to get a result of 5 heads/5 tails... after 20 groups of 10 I gave up trying realising that the coin was indeed rigged!

My last 4 results...

17) 1121211111 - 80% Heads
18) 1121212222 - 60% Heads (closest)
19) 1222222222 - 10% Heads
20) 1111211122 - 70% Heads - gave up!

However if you look at the bold section between 19 and 20 - I achieved 50/50 - just not during my set sessions.

As always, happy to answer any other questions.

Big Time Gaming official

The Donuts wheel is 30% on the first spin, 50% on the 12-16 spins and 16-20 and 20-24 spins. So those figures aren't too wide of the mark.

Don't be fooled by the visuals.

Think about it, you've got the same game as Bonanza essentially so 12 spins should occur every 460 spins with an average return of near 100x.

You buy the feature every spin and if you got 12 spins every time you'd have very little variance over time and an effective RTP of near 100%.

This is why the sub-par results are mainly restricted to the 8-spin bonuses and the better ones when you have 16+ spins. and are likely to hit over 100x bet.

I think people expect a real 50-50 all the way which would mean the slot couldn't function.

The losing gambles on the 8-12 are there to subsidize the larger average results on 16+ spins.

RTP can't be created from nothing, it needs paying for.

Found what BTG said:

"The Wheel
The first spin is 50/50 and all proceeding gambles are 60/40 odds on."

 

[nikantw]

Way i look at your figures is 866 out of 3000 spins is just less than 1 in 3 which to me is quite possible.

Really do not get how you have all these 0's and it is impossible.

From such a small sample of 3000 i think 866 is actually not that bad .

You can't use your "feeling" in statistics. The only truth is the math.
May look to you like that, but it is the math. Look it up, try "coin toss" on google or

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[dunover]

I would also totally agree that the wheel is not 50/50.

Think that is pretty clear from playing it and from all the posts on here. I was merely pointing out that 30% average out of 3000 spins could never be classed as enough proof.

People can quote any Mathematical statistic they want but although unlikely it is far from impossible to get 866 correct out of 3000 on any 50/50 scenario.

It's possible you'll pick the 6 lottos number this week, but the odds are 14m to 1. The devil is in the detail and as I have to pack for Amsterdam shortly I haven't the time to work it out, but 2134/3000 losses would be a mathematical catastrophe. I am going to plump for a ball park figure that exceeds 50,000/1. I think it's more if somebody can do the EV+deviation equation.

The BTG odds claim must be (slyly) referring to the VISUAL odds as it certainly isn't the TRUE odds!

Think about it - if representing true odds the wheel would be 5-blacks 3 greens and that would be 37.5% which at the outside is the absolute highest possible after various stats collected thus far.

Now if BTG depicted the wheel like that, who would gamble after waiting hundreds of spins for a feature, or paying through the nose to buy one? Therefore the gamble feature would be pointless and make the game design pointless.

I maintain that in order to keep the game feature potential and returns the same as Bonanza the maths simply would NOT allow a true 50-50 gamble at the initial 8-spin stage!

In fact although I said 30% on the 8-12 gamble wheel, possibly 33.33% we've all forgotten one thing that would make it 37.5% or at the outside 50% over time - the fact that it often drops 4 SCATTERS in when buying the feature.

When that is taken into consideration then it's possible that overall the chance of getting 12 spins is 50% BUT not just based on 8-12 wheel gambling!!

Pictorially that wheel should be changed to 4 green 6 black IMO.

 

[nikantw]

.....
The BTG odds claim must be (slyly) referring to the VISUAL odds as it certainly isn't the TRUE odds!....
Pictorially that wheel should be changed to 4 green 6 black IMO.

BTG said:

"We would like to confirm that the make up of the wheel does indeed reflect the true value RTP.
This would be a compliance issue .....
The Wheel

The first spin is 50/50 and all proceeding gambles are 60/40 odds on.
However on subsequent gambles the odds diminish to roughly a 1 in 10 chance of getting to 24 from 8.

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 10

With a natural scatter +4 it's 1 in 5 etc...
You can work out the others by adding/removing the wheel progressions."

I believe him, but I have no personal data to support it.

New Slot Announcement - Extra Chilli, BTG

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So we have BTG saying that the first gamble on the wheel is 50/50.

We also have stats to say with a convincing degree of mathematical certainty that it isn't.

Only one of these positions can be correct.

 

[Jory]

If the numbers are true, if someone has video from 3000 real money buy/gamble features and only 866 of them won the first gamble, the chances of that happening are (because that gamble has 50/50 chance):
1/81600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...... that is not all of the "0", it is 119 "0" in the actuall number!
Yes, it is 1 in 8.16E+121!

You could also look at it as the same odds the person running these tests is telling the truth.

If I told people I had a T-Rex living in my back garden, I'm sure they would expect some proof despite it being more likely than the number you posted.

That is why this person needs to post some evidence to back up their claim. I get the feeling these 3000 features will never be uploaded, yet this 30% theory will continue to spread because people enjoy more a good conspiracy than what is actually true.

Dunovers profile picture has never been more relevant.

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

Disappointing posts from dunover here...

 

[dunover]

Sorry, but the smaller wheel sample size I did was pretty much in line with the 3000 one spoken of. I am telling you is definitely isn't 50%! Try it yourselves. Just do 100 and even that low a number will indicate the claim has some truth in it.

Secondly if you know anything about slot maths you'd have worked out by now that the construct is different for this game. The allocation to the feature RTP is the same as Bonanza BUT there you get 12 spins guaranteed. If you gamble the EC feature once successfully you get those 12 spins. You're effectively creating more volatility by having the gamble function in the first place.

Given the feature yields will be on average far higher should you play 16, 20 or 24 spins then of course the gamble must compensate for that fact.

So to get 8-24 spins via the gamble you are doing 5/10x6/10x6/10x6/10 = 1080/10000 so if those odds were kosher you have a shade under 11% chance of doing so about 1/9.

To get to 20 spins it's 180/1000 about 1/5.5 chance.

To get to 16 spins it's 30/100 about 1/3.33 chance.

To get to 12 spins it's allegedly a 5/10 chance or 1/2.

So we are seeing the feature gamble award the 12 spins from 8 at approximately the same rate you'd expect to gamble from 8 to 16.

So something doesn't add up here BUT one thing I did notice when I tried it was that IF you get to 12 spins then losing from the 12-16 gamble seemed a bit rarer than it should have been at 60-40.

I think the issue may come down to the fact that when using the feature buy the game often drops 12 spins in the first place which means that this affects the 8-12 gamble success rate to well below 50-50. I further believe this as on gambles when I had already got 12 spins whether by drop-in on buy or the initial gamble I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary on further gambles.

So I suspect the overall variance occurring with feature buy (which means you can get 4 or sometimes 5 scatters drop in) is accounted for on the FIRST 8-12 GAMBLE WHEEL ONLY.

This would explain the 30-35% -ish results people are reporting on the initial 8-12 gamble AND still produce a 50% chance overall of getting 12 spins.....

 

[snorky510238]

The thing is with these sorts of issues they always come about when a player is given information that enables them to measure their judgement. Suspicions are always going to be aroused when figures seem to be massively skewed and ALWAYS in favour of the casino/providers. You could of bet your last penny that the 50/50 gamble would never be skewed that wide of the mark in favour of the player. Which tells you something.

 

[goatwack]

I think at this juncture we can confirm we're all imagining things and the 50/ 50 wheel is really really fair and that.

As you were, BTG

(kerching)

 

[dunover]

You could also look at it as the same odds the person running these tests is telling the truth.

If I told people I had a T-Rex living in my back garden, I'm sure they would expect some proof despite it being more likely than the number you posted.

That is why this person needs to post some evidence to back up their claim. I get the feeling these 3000 features will never be uploaded, yet this 30% theory will continue to spread because people enjoy more a good conspiracy than what is actually true.

Dunovers profile picture has never been more relevant.

LOL... GameArt came out with a similar statement when we told them their demo games were rigged.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

<< snip >>

So I suspect the overall variance occurring with feature buy (which means you can get 4 or sometimes 5 scatters drop in) is accounted for on the FIRST 8-12 GAMBLE WHEEL ONLY.

This would explain the 30-35% -ish results people are reporting on the initial 8-12 gamble AND still produce a 50% chance overall of getting 12 spins.....

Nice post there dunover and interesting to see your working.

The key issue for me here is that if that initial 8 to 12 spins gamble is anything other than 50/50, then BTG are deliberately misleading the player. (I do understand how you're working out overall that the initial feature trigger may be 12 spins 50% of the time through other factors.)

None of that changes the fact that if BTG are presenting a gamble with something all players will clearly understand as presenting the odds (i.e. a wheel, very similar to a roulette wheel), but the odds of the gamble are not that shown - then I think they're guilty of malfeasance.

For me, those 3000 feature buys prove it one way or the other, if the evidence for that is presented publicly, I'd say BTG are on the hook.

 

[zap987]

If someone actually has solid proof the first wheel isn't 50/50 they need to publish it instead of spreading rumours. If there is statistical evidence it would be a big deal, probably to the point where no respectable casino would ever offer BTG games anymore. Myself I find it hard to believe they would do anything so stupid though.

To comment on Dunovers post: Yes the feature hits about twice as often as Bonanza but gives 8 spins, and assuming the wheel is 50/50 you can choose to gamble and then end up with pretty much the same feature frequency as Bonanza, 12 free spins every 450ish spins. No further compensation to RTP is needed. Same thing with the other gambles really, you would expect the value of 16 free spins to be 67% higher than 12 spins because the wheel is 60/40. 20 spins a slightly smaller increase which is covered for by getting 8 spins on a loss, same deal for 24. Buying a feature costs 50x stake, the only compensation needed for dropping in +4s when buying is in the overall payout of the freespins, which most likely means an 8 free spin round has an average pay of around 40x and the remaining 8.5x is made up for by starting with 12+ spins. There is absolutely no need to do anything weird with the wheel to keep the numbers working, it's all in the reels during play.

 

[TheAddict]

I think Dunovers theory makes sense regarding the extra scatters it can roll in levelling out the odds. Though if so then IMO thats wrong to display the gamble itself as true odds per each gamble, which naturally will entice many to spin it rather than not.. and possibly get carried away and over time perhaps lose control (and likely much moolah)

If the wheel on the screen representing a coin flip is not 50/50 they can always do an update.
Im sure thousands of people who gambled and lost a fair few more times than they won from 8-12 spins while under the impression they were on a coin flip won't have a problem buying more features when logging in one day and being faced with a wheel that looks even worse than the one that was shafting them before

 

[Balthazar]

If someone actually has solid proof the first wheel isn't 50/50 they need to publish it instead of spreading rumours.

Exactly. We're all discussing something that may or may not exist (the 3000 spins data). Some forum member suggesting that the slot isn't random and that "he knows 3 guys that are compiling" isn't cutting it. Same forum member who previously said that streamers are "sketchy" and labeled another BTG slot as "the worst slot of all time". I think we need to take a step back until we get a little more details about that.

Keep in mind that BTG have everything to lose by lying about those odds. They are making so much money with their slots, it's going to take a bit more than those allusions to believe that they are dumb enough to compromise all their credibility with such frivolous lies.

If someone really wants to know if it's 50-50 or not, all it takes is a couple of hundred tries. Feel free to do it.

 

[Jono777]

Time to have a laugh at my expense but this post is based on personal findings with this slot and not just one or two either.

Not read every post fully, nor re-read but has anyone differentiated between brought features (or triggered by the final coin) against natural triggers?

I have noticed since release, the gamble wheel is FAR MORE forthcoming (in terms of winning!) when the feature triggers of its own accord and NOT purchased/triggered by final coin.

This in the main is from the 8-12 gamble where from natural triggers I have won many more times than I have lost.

Purchased features on the other hand have lost most of the gambles, plus the ones which actually do go to the 12 block the wins by continually placing 2x high symbol stacks on reels 1 and 2 - TOO often to be random outcomes.

Still play it though