Expired ID, passports and driving licences

[Reelsoffun]

Hi,

Can someone confirm whether these docs can be used to verify an account or not?

I don't see how the fact they are expired no longer proves you are who you are but casinos are rejecting them.

What is correct? Rejected or acceptable? And does anyone know the reason they are inconsistently rejected?

 

[budskap]

I've had ID denied because it was expired, when in reality it wasn't because they read it the wrong way.

What would be the point of expiry date if it didn't matter? I've had an ID rejected in an IRL store too because of expiry date (and it really was expired at that time too) so why would a casino accept it.

 

[Reelsoffun]

oops

 

[Reelsoffun]

I've had ID denied because it was expired, when in reality it wasn't because they read it the wrong way.

What would be the point of expiry date if it didn't matter? I've had an ID rejected in an IRL store too because of expiry date (and it really was expired at that time too) so why would a casino accept it.

Well I asked as all casinos have rejected it so far, yet the dispute im in with at the moment over returning funds and closing the account at casumo have accepted it.

Im assuming that had I won casumo would have used it as an excuse to not pay, but as my cashout is less than deposits they are letting me cashout with an expired licence.

Funny that huh?

 

[goatwack]

ID checks are inconsistent at best, and there is no definitive authority on what is accepted and what isn't. They make it up as they go along....

Which has worked both for and against me, so it's more of a lottery than anything. Had expired passports approved myself, albeit with selfie of me holding said passport. That ought to be sufficient anyway to be honest, if it is a case of identifying my likeness and the document isn't too out of date.

Still not going to stop casinos wrongfully withholding winnings when it suits them though, that's always the danger

 

[Reelsoffun]

Just been on casumo chat to confirm:-

A couple of highlights of another "accredited" casino

Casumo-Johnny
Wed not do anything that way and we inform you of the KYC process when youre about to create an account with us. The only reason your ID got accepted, was that your account is closed and Im sure you didnt mind having to send us a new ID just to get those remaining funds to your bank account.

ME:-yet here we are on logging on it says I self excluded which I DID not

Casumo-Johnny
If your account would have been open and continued to be used, then we would have needed an ID that is still valid.So it was definitely an exception.
ME: i dont have new ID this is the point so if i had won £1000 last night i would have been about to cash out as an exception too?

Casumo-Johnny
Every case is different



Me:- What i am saying is that i never wanted to close it for self exclusion I wanted to close it as I had been told that the ID was expired so wouldnt be able to verify and that if i cant verify then deposits would be returned and i wouldnt be worth playing as would never be able to cashout any winnings?
Casumo-Johnny
That is correct you would not have been able to verify your account without a valid ID.


Is that not admitting my deposits were cashable winable? Absolute Joke. This is the straw that broke the camels back, im done with online, in constant fear of only being able to lose and not being able to cash out, no thanks.

 

[slotter999]

@Reelsoffun Suppose the casino refused to payout. Suppose you went to a court of law to enforce the debt and wob. Would your expired documents be a factor? Absolutely not. Just casinos making up rules to suit themselves as usual. Standard stuff.

 

[colinsunderland]

My thoughts.

1. I would get the SE closure sorted. Casumo are a large casino, even if you don't want to play there again, if they buy other properties, you will end up excluded there too, which could cause problems down the line.
2. It's up to the casino if they want to accept it or not. I wouldn't in the current climate. Just to also say though, the casino would still have to pay you, even if you couldn't verify the account, especially if it was a random check and you were already verified previously. If they didn't then you could take them to court.

 

[pinnit2014]

Pretty sure there is UKGC narrative on what they can accept in the AML guidance?

My favourite is when they say the statement isn’t in colour and you’re like ‘that’s how it was posted..Presume environmental reasons why it’s not in colour’

 

[Reelsoffun]

My thoughts.

1. I would get the SE closure sorted. Casumo are a large casino, even if you don't want to play there again, if they buy other properties, you will end up excluded there too, which could cause problems down the line.
2. It's up to the casino if they want to accept it or not. I wouldn't in the current climate. Just to also say though, the casino would still have to pay you, even if you couldn't verify the account, especially if it was a random check and you were already verified previously. If they didn't then you could take them to court.

No the point is they wouldnt accept if i was in profit but now im below the deposit value they happy to accept it. They basically werent going to accept before the account closure, and wont reverse the account closure without a in date one madness pretty much making there own rules up, I really cant see how some of these accredited casinos can keep there status when they are allowed to be inconsistent on something that is the difference between a locked account or a cash out.

As for taking them to court not worth it for such a small amount, would be easier to chargeback the three transactions on grounds that i didnt get the service to which the payments were authorized for which if not resolved next week i might as well do. Yet they are now paying my balance i had left not the full deposit amounts even tho they have admitted i was never going to be able to cashout any win.

Time to quit online gaming, as even the accredited ones are now bending the new rules to hold onto peoples deposits, funds and winnings to ransom, what chance do we have when even the good ones are using flexible rules.

 

[colinsunderland]

No the point is they wouldnt accept if i was in profit but now im below the deposit value they happy to accept it. They basically werent going to accept before the account closure, and wont reverse the account closure without a in date one madness pretty much making there own rules up, I really cant see how some of these accredited casinos can keep there status when they are allowed to be inconsistent on something that is the difference between a locked account or a cash out.

As for taking them to court not worth it for such a small amount, would be easier to chargeback the three transactions on grounds that i didnt get the service to which the payments were authorized for which if not resolved next week i might as well do. Yet they are now paying my balance i had left not the full deposit amounts even tho they have admitted i was never going to be able to cashout any win.

Time to quit online gaming, as even the accredited ones are now bending the new rules to hold onto peoples deposits, funds and winnings to ransom, what chance do we have when even the good ones are using flexible rules.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make, especially on the chargeback side.
You have a balance in your account. They are paying it to you. Why exactly are you talking about doing a chargeback, when they pay you, they will owe you £0.00 surely?

Disregard what live chat reps tell you when it comes to complicated matters, usually they don't have training on stuff like this. They might not have accepted the ID had you won a grand, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't get paid, there is nothing in the legislation allowing them to confiscate your funds in a situation like this, you may have to wait a while for them while the authorities make a decision, but the casino won't get to keep it.

 

[ed skull murphy]

We are not legally required to have a photo ID in Britain, AFAIK, did you mention that to them? There must be an alternative possibility.

 

[Reelsoffun]

They have only agreed to pay now they have closed my account had i known i was never going to be able to withdraw in the first place without closing it i would never have deposited knowing the only result i could have had was a loss.

they waited until i had lost before triggering the verify and when told them i would not be able to they said they would have to refund deposits. But they closed the account anyway Its far to long winded to put all what happened here.


It boils down to they put me in a position where i was never going to be able to win and cashout as i have no ID they would accept and I expect them to request SOW on the next cashout to which again i would not be able to provide.

This has made it quite clear to me that these new rules have made it a complete mugs game to play online and im more than happy to go back to BM casinos to gamble, where never in my life have i had to wait for a cashout or had it denied for any reason.

 

[Reelsoffun]

We are not legally required to have a photo ID in Britain, AFAIK, did you mention that to them? There must be an alternative possibility.

They would not accept it being out of date , then when i had lost they were happy to accept it to cashout on closing my account its all dodgy. Thats the odd thing, the only way i was allowed to cashout is close the account and only when my balance was lower than deposits for that day.

 

[slotter999]

They would not accept it being out of date , then when i had lost they were happy to accept it to cashout on closing my account its all dodgy. Thats the odd thing, the only way i was allowed to cashout is close the account and only when my balance was lower than deposits for that day.

The fact you could not show ID at the time of them requesting it has no bearing on whether or not you would have been paid. Regardless of ID status it would have been a legally enforceable debt in the UK. Win or lose you would have got paid eventually.

 

[zap987]

Seems logical that if you refuse to get a valid ID, you shouldn't play online. Don't see a problem here at all, if you had won you would have been able to cash out as soon as you sorted out ID, now they appear to be helping you by letting you cash out the remaining balance when closing the account without getting new ID.

 

[colinsunderland]

They would not accept it being out of date , then when i had lost they were happy to accept it to cashout on closing my account its all dodgy. Thats the odd thing, the only way i was allowed to cashout is close the account and only when my balance was lower than deposits for that day.

So did someone from compliance tell you that, or or a normal CSR on live chat/email?
You would have been able to cashout if you had won, and they can accept other things than photo ID, you just need to go up the chain to get someone who understands that.

If you chargeback, in my view, it will be fraudulent, due to the fact you already played the deposits, and they would have returned any winnings, even if it was after account closure.

You're making out the casino are trying to scam you, when in fact all you are going on is your assumptions, not facts.

 

[ed skull murphy]

Time to quit online gaming, as even the accredited ones are now bending the new rules to hold onto peoples deposits, funds and winnings to ransom, what chance do we have when even the good ones are using flexible rules.

The Gibraltar based casinos are generally not so stringent, especially the larger ones, who do auto-verification through your bank account. The CS are a lot more efficient at sorting out any issues you may have, and are only a free phone call away, 24/7.

 

[mack341]

I think if the casino know your id documents have expired [driving licence and passport] and they want you to reverify, it should be requested before allowing you to re-deposit and lose money and then this problem won't occur. They are not treating customers with enough care or respect, possibly because they do not employ enough staff, but in the scenario here a good computer system/database is all that is required. When the original verification took place, the expiry date of the ID documents would be added to the database etc..., if the casino's rule is out of date ID needs to be reverified, a block on deposits is triggered when the expiry date passes.

 

[robby811]

If i play at a new Casino i first started the verification Progress Upload the Documents and then Deposit , since bad experiences while waiting for Verifcation Lost a lot of WInnings few times... so its much better that way someone here in the Forum gave me the Advice i think Harry

 

[Reelsoffun]

So did someone from compliance tell you that, or or a normal CSR on live chat/email?
You would have been able to cashout if you had won, and they can accept other things than photo ID, you just need to go up the chain to get someone who understands that.

If you chargeback, in my view, it will be fraudulent, due to the fact you already played the deposits, and they would have returned any winnings, even if it was after account closure.

You're making out the casino are trying to scam you, when in fact all you are going on is your assumptions, not facts.

They already told me if i had won i wouldnt have been able to cash out without a valid ID. They only accepted the ID when the closed the account, when i asked about the verify:-

Casumo-Kathrin
They will be locked until we receive all the necessary documents from the player

ME:-and if you dont or cant get them

Casumo-Kathrin
Your deposit will be refunded in case an account is blocked due to that reason

There is a little more to it, but the fact they stopped my play and cant even resume a unfinished game on a slot as the account is closed and how its been handled i did not get the service i paid for, i paid for goods or services which were withdrawn before I had finished so the fact is they should allow me to continue or put me back to before any of it happened. I am waiting for them to contact me on Monday and will go from there. I am happy to discuss it with someone higher up than a chat operative.

The key bit here is i was told it would be locked if i cant verify eg out of date docs, and that all deposits refunded, then they realized that they would have to refund me the full amount instead of a 3rd ( about £100 ) so then instead they decided to now take the out of date docs and verify after all, even tho its out of date and against what they told me was acceptable and closed the account mid games. This is whats not right.
And this feels to me fraudulent and i'm within my right to let the card provider decide who is in the wrong, and go with that, if it comes to it.

And for this reason I will not say any more about it on here.

 

[Reelsoffun]

If i play at a new Casino i first started the verification Progress Upload the Documents and then Deposit , since bad experiences while waiting for Verifcation Lost a lot of WInnings few times... so its much better that way someone here in the Forum gave me the Advice i think Harry

I joined casumo in 2017 this is not first deposits, not had a problem here before and deposited over 2000 apparently according to the email, and they claim i wasnt verified but it was the first thing i do.

 

[robby811]

yes sorry my bad, i have now read anyhing , but the Advice is good !!! but did not helps you in your case sorry

 

[Reelsoffun]

I think if the casino know your id documents have expired [driving licence and passport] and they want you to reverify, it should be requested before allowing you to re-deposit and lose money and then this problem won't occur. They are not treating customers with enough care or respect, possibly because they do not employ enough staff, but in the scenario here a good computer system/database is all that is required. When the original verification took place, the expiry date of the ID documents would be added to the database etc..., if the casino's rule is out of date ID needs to be reverified, a block on deposits is triggered when the expiry date passes.

Finally someone gets it. Thats all i have the issue with, apart from this i have found casumo to be a good fun casino to play at and have even recommended them several times including friends.

 

[ed skull murphy]

Finally someone gets it. Thats all i have the issue with, apart from this i have found casumo to be a good fun casino to play at and have even recommended them several times including friends.

Oh, we get it alright, but most of us have driving licences and passports.

 

[zap987]

I really don't see the issue here, maybe you're not explaining it clear enough. As I understand it, you deposited, played and lost some then wanted to cash out the remaining balance. They asked you to verify and you didn't have a valid id. You then closed your account and they agreed to process your cashout based on your expired id.

If this is the case, there is no way they owe you anything more, as long as they pay your withdrawal. Why they choose to accept an expired id when you closed the account is up to them, it only helps you as you get your money easier. I just can't understand how you can think you are owed anything more.

If they would refund all your deposits based on your id being expired, people could go deposit, play, if they lose they claim their id is expired and for deposits to be refunded, if they win they get a valid id and cashout? You played, lost and if you try to charge it back you're effectively trying to steal money from the casino.

 

[mack341]

I haven't been able to find any guidance on from the UKGC on re-verification. However in one of the ukgc articles about identity checks it does say: "Failing to request information early could also lead to customers depositing money, and gambling in false belief that they will be able to withdraw any deposits or winnings without unreasonable delays."

Once a gambling business has confirmed the customer is over 18, they are who they say they are and their address, I'm not sure of the logical need from the casino for the customer to go through the identity verification a second time?

Also regarding passports not everybody renews theirs straightaway if they're not planning to travel abroad.

With respect to chargebacks I know there is a strict procedure for banks to follow for debit cards, its a neutral process with various conditions that need to be met, its not a 'thieving your money back facility' so I would certainly not accuse the op of basically being a thief.

 

[zap987]

Once a gambling business has confirmed the customer is over 18, they are who they say they are and their address, I'm not sure of the logical need from the casino for the customer to go through the identity verification a second time?

I don't see anywhere it states that this is a reverification, it appears to be first verification?

 

[mack341]

I don't see anywhere it states that this is a reverification, it appears to be first verification?

well reelsoffun posted "I joined casumo in 2017 this is not first deposits, not had a problem here before and deposited over 2000 apparently according to the email, and they claim i wasnt verified but it was the first thing i do."

I have definitely read of customers having to do reverification especially at withdrawal time.

Also the UKGC state with regard to age "You will not be allowed to withdraw any winnings until your age is confirmed. If the company’s checks show that you are not old enough to gamble the money that you staked or deposited in your account must be returned, but you will not get any winnings.

which kind of ties in with what the casumo person told the op

 

[colinsunderland]

well reelsoffun posted "I joined casumo in 2017 this is not first deposits, not had a problem here before and deposited over 2000 apparently according to the email, and they claim i wasnt verified but it was the first thing i do."

I have definitely read of customers having to do reverification especially at withdrawal time.

Also the UKGC state with regard to age "You will not be allowed to withdraw any winnings until your age is confirmed. If the company’s checks show that you are not old enough to gamble the money that you staked or deposited in your account must be returned, but you will not get any winnings.

which kind of ties in with what the casumo person told the op

This will be enhanced verification, that almost all casinos do at the £2k point.
The part you quote about age obviously doesn't apply to the OP as he has an expired driving license, so therefore is almost guaranteed to be over 18.

 

[slotmaster]

Anyone else thought this was a spam thread of someone selling, passports and id's?

 

[mack341]

This will be enhanced verification, that almost all casinos do at the £2k point.
The part you quote about age obviously doesn't apply to the OP as he has an expired driving license, so therefore is almost guaranteed to be over 18.

I think I had this at dr vegas, but all that was required was for them to send me a code in the post and when I received it I had to email them the code number. I didn't have to send them any other ID in. I think it was a kind of anti money laundering procedure to make sure my address matched the one I'd given them. But it happened about 2 yrs into my membership with them, however not sure I was up to 2k in deposits at that point but I think they added in withdrawals to calculate 2k in transactions overall.

The part I quoted about age was to show there is a UKGC precedent in relation to another identity issue whereby they require money staked to be returned; apparently during the op's conversations with casumo they said if identity cannot be confirmed they return the deposits but then realising this would mean a refund of monies lost they changed their mind and confirmed his ID with an expired document. I don't know the full sequence of events so I could be wrong about this.

 

[mack341]

I wonder which other ID documents casumo would accept in a situation like this, birth certificates have no expiry date and bank statements and utility bills are commonly accepted as proof of ID in the UK. It seems a shame a customer who had enjoyed playing at a online casino has to have their account terminated simply because of an expired driving licence.

edit: have removed ukgc guidance because it was irrelevant.

 

[cncas2123]

Just a general question on the verification part, but what if the address is different than the registered address at the site? I know theres a couple of sites that I’ve regestered my work address rather than my home address, so what would happen if I’m asked to verify with a utility bill ?

 

[ed skull murphy]

Just a general question on the verification part, but what if the address is different than the registered address at the site? I know theres a couple of sites that I’ve regestered my work address rather than my home address, so what would happen if I’m asked to verify with a utility bill ?

I would contact those casinos ASAP and inform them of the situation, or at least change the registered address to your official residential one.

 

[colinsunderland]

Just a general question on the verification part, but what if the address is different than the registered address at the site? I know theres a couple of sites that I’ve regestered my work address rather than my home address, so what would happen if I’m asked to verify with a utility bill ?

As Ed says above, I wouldn't deposit any more until you contact them and change your address. I wouldn't just change it though, I would speak to them, as doing that might trigger KYC in itself, or in the future they may ask for proof of the previous address. I'm quite surprised you haven't been caught out on that yet, as you won't be on the electoral roll there, so electronic verification should fail, triggering a paper KYC check. Presumably these casinos aren't large ones or you haven't made withdrawals from them? I have footprints all over my credit file from casinos doing KYC verifications.

 

[ed skull murphy]

I'm quite surprised you haven't been caught out on that yet, as you won't be on the electoral roll there, so electronic verification should fail, triggering a paper KYC check. Presumably these casinos aren't large ones or you haven't made withdrawals from them? I have footprints all over my credit file from casinos doing KYC verifications.

Yep, spot on. When I moved back to England, I opened a new betfair account (multiple accounts were possible then), but I didn't have a bank account at that time, so I had to submit proof of ID, even though they knew who I was from when living abroad.

 

[halibaker]

i just signed up with an Australian ID verification service that is quite new, i wonder if they have anything similar in countries that can actually online gamble, it makes things so much easier.
anyway its essentially a phone app you can use online and with a QR code in person, to verify your age and identity, without having to send ( NOT AGAIN ) proof of who you are -always have to be new or less than 3 mths old, a clear scan of your boobs- with all 4 corners visible. (i hope thats not just me? ) copies of your license from every possible angle and of course a govt doc showing your address.
And they say once you get it done, it never expires, pretty sweeeet if you ask me, which you didn't... but too bad.
AUSSIES get on board with this so it gets more users and online businesses.
so much easier to verify who you are just the once.
ooh you can even upload an expired lic /passport, as long as its not toooooooo far gone. then boooyah all done.
its accepted at the likes of bottle shops and clubs& pubs, the post office, and online ( just not a great deal of sites on board as yet)
the app is called "digital id"
i dont work for them either, im totally unemployed atm, but i think it could be pretty good.

 

[cncas2123]

As Ed says above, I wouldn't deposit any more until you contact them and change your address. I wouldn't just change it though, I would speak to them, as doing that might trigger KYC in itself, or in the future they may ask for proof of the previous address. I'm quite surprised you haven't been caught out on that yet, as you won't be on the electoral roll there, so electronic verification should fail, triggering a paper KYC check. Presumably these casinos aren't large ones or you haven't made withdrawals from them? I have footprints all over my credit file from casinos doing KYC verifications.

It’s William Hill and I’ve made numerous withdrawals since I opened the account in 2010. I remember at the time I had to send my passport and driving license ( which has my home address) for verification and that was accepted.
Thanks to both Ed & Colin for the advice