Does everyone use the bonuses?

[dunover]

No, the target of the player is not to meet the wagering on every single deposit, if you do you will lose money in the long run. The way to create a +EV situation is to often bust out before wagering much. While some casinos do block some of the highest variance games, the variance in pretty much any slot is still high enough.

This is just math, the casino gives you free money in the form of a bonus. The only way they make that money back in the long run, is by you wagering. The results don't matter, only the TRTP of the games and amount of wagering you do. If you can avoid some of the wagering by busting out, you create EV for the player.

So you're saying the slots are compensated and not random?

 

[syrus2]

No worries Jon, you just keep doing what you feel is right for you.

As you know I rarely take bonuses but IMO if it is your day you'll cruise through any wagering, no matter if it is 25x (VS) or 90xB (Energy). Often enough we or rather me struggle to wager 5x the balance before having to hit the "cashier" button again, so it wouldn't matter what wagering would be needed if a bonus would be attached to it.

I took in the past 2 days 2x 50% bonuses (CL/Next 1 each) and busted before completing to wager 4x and 6x the total balance. Third casino a deposit without a bonus and i played for 4 hrs, wagering it probably in excess of 50x before busting.

None of the options, bonus or bonus free deposit, are a guarantee that you will do better or worse. The only guarantee with a bonus is a longer playtime if you stick to the same bet sizes, hence more chances to hit something worth a few bucks. Even then the remaining WR might eat up all those bucks.

I stopped caring if EV- or EV+ as long as the WR is not higher than 40x. As i said, if it is my day and time then it'll be a lot of fun to wager through and then hitting the withdrawal button once completed.

+10 to this post !!

 

[Jono777]

So you're saying the slots are compensated and not random?

Never doubt you Mr D as you have a lot more all round experience than myself, however I do have my thoughts as I said in a post last night (no idea where somewhere on here) that nothing is truly 100% random.

Compensated (such as land based B3's, AWP's etc) may be the wrong word but I do believe that there are some sort of 'inhibitors' or restrictions in the slots programming code that blocks (again for want of a better word) certain 'random' outcomes.

Truth is no-one can or will ever prove 100% who is right or who is wrong or if a percentage of what we say is accurate or not.

The bottom line is that I believe we as players are given a fair 'crack of the whip' and are NOT fighting against 'rigged' or 'rogue' code as we play.

I will continue to happily play and take my chances as I know (well more or less) what I am getting into the moment I make my deposit(s)

Plenty of conspiracy/foil hat moments will always arise after a bad run, regardless of how much the player is in control, its human nature!

 

[Janek12]

CASHABLE bonus = ALWAYS a good thing

I am quite surprised that nobody pointed out the most obvious advantage of cashable bonuses.

If you are a regular/heavy player - which I assume most of the active visitors to this forum are - then every cashable bonus is COLD HARD CASH to you.

And the reason behind this is that whether you bust out before meeting the WR or not is that you would play next morning, next afternoon, next weekend, etc. anyway, regardless of any wins or losses; but instead of spending e.g. 500 EUR on slots per month, you only spend 333 EUR (assuming you take 50 % bonuses).

So each month, you save around 170 EUR, i.e. 2000 EUR per year. And you save it in cash. So that's the most important advantage of cashable bonuses IMO.

 

[zap987]

So you're saying the slots are compensated and not random?

No, not at all. It's all very simple math.

1. Casino gives out money for free in the form of bonus. They need to make it back or the player wins so they set a wagering requirement.

2. The casino only makes money by people wagering on their games. It's the whole basis of the industry, people play on games with a <100% TRTP and the difference in the long run goes to the casino.

For example lets say I deposit 100 at a casino, I go play their roulette and put it all on red. I lose, how much profit did the casino make? The answer is 2.70, the theoretical loss for a 100 bet on roulette. The actual results of this individual bet is irrelevant, repeat it enough times and their average profit will be 2.70.

So when it comes to a bonus with a WR, the only time they make money is when you bet, if you take a long series of bonuses and take a high enough risk that you bust out well before reaching the WR, the total wagering you generate will not reach the value of the bonus given. This money will end up with the player.

Not sure how much clearer I can explain it, there are no compensated slots or anything involved, just pure math. I do realise it's very counterintuitive that the player in the long run makes money by busting out but math is math, luck or feeling has nothing to do with it. I would really suggest you try and understand the math and reasoning instead of finding flaws.

 

[Naokia980]

Bonuses are good to use when trying to complete the wagering requirements.Like x50 times wagering requirements are so high and i never take this kind of bonuses.Also nor all games count to playthrough %.

 

[interlog]

No, not at all. It's all very simple math.

1. Casino gives out money for free in the form of bonus. They need to make it back or the player wins so they set a wagering requirement.

2. The casino only makes money by people wagering on their games. It's the whole basis of the industry, people play on games with a <100% TRTP and the difference in the long run goes to the casino.

For example lets say I deposit 100 at a casino, I go play their roulette and put it all on red. I lose, how much profit did the casino make? The answer is 2.70, the theoretical loss for a 100 bet on roulette. The actual results of this individual bet is irrelevant, repeat it enough times and their average profit will be 2.70.

So when it comes to a bonus with a WR, the only time they make money is when you bet, if you take a long series of bonuses and take a high enough risk that you bust out well before reaching the WR, the total wagering you generate will not reach the value of the bonus given. This money will end up with the player.

Not sure how much clearer I can explain it, there are no compensated slots or anything involved, just pure math. I do realise it's very counterintuitive that the player in the long run makes money by busting out but math is math, luck or feeling has nothing to do with it. I would really suggest you try and understand the math and reasoning instead of finding flaws.

Call me thick but if you deposit 100 and lose it on one bet, the profit for the casino is 100 (minus any overheads but let's not take that into account). How you get 2.70 I don't know.

At the end of the year the profit the casino makes from me is total deposits minus withdrawals. It doesn't matter how much I have wagered or played.

 

[syrus2]

Call me thick but if you deposit 100 and lose it on one bet, the profit for the casino is 100 (minus any overheads but let's not take that into account). How you get 2.70 I don't know.

At the end of the year the profit the casino makes from me is total deposits minus withdrawals. It doesn't matter how much I have wagered or played.

you're not .


what he should say is : casino makes 2.7 percent chance to win ( NOT PROFIT ) . My own cousin is dealer working at casino. I've asked him about this matter more than once in last 20 years.
I do'nt wanna go off the topic nor open a can of worms here and explain it ( just in case this has been discussed here in past ).
But , I'm pretty sure that our fellow Member is wrong.

 

[zap987]

Not so much thick as looking at it from the wrong direction. Look at it from the casinos perspective, your 100 bet is one of many thousand bets they will handle each day. They don't care about each individual bets outcome, only about the long run. In the long run, for each 100 bet on roulette, they will profit 2.7.

 

[interlog]

Not so much thick as looking at it from the wrong direction. Look at it from the casinos perspective, your 100 bet is one of many thousand bets they will handle each day. They don't care about each individual bets outcome, only about the long run. In the long run, for each 100 bet on roulette, they will profit 2.7.

I don't give two hoots about the casino. It is my money that I am concerned about.

Besides, my point stands - on that particular bet, the casino made a 100 profit off me - simple as that.

 

[asadzareef89]

I only take bonuses at certain Casinos 32 Red is being one of them as the wagering is not high and can play all the games.
I don't think there is any bet restrictions either only for the welcome bonus I think.

Guts & Betspin I like taking their 40% double bonus

I don't take Bonuses where Neteller is not allowed.

betspin don't allow neteller?

 

[zap987]

I did make a mistake including an outcome in the example, indeed their profit is 100 after the result is known. That part is however not important for the overall reasoning, their profit before the result is known is +2.7 and that's all that matters in the long run.

 

[mina1929]

betspin don't allow neteller?

Yes Betspin allow Neteller deposits for Bonuses and so does Guts that's why I play there often but not Casino Cruise or Leo Vegas.

 

[asadzareef89]

Yes Betspin allow Neteller deposits for Bonuses and so does Guts that's why I play there often but not Casino Cruise or Leo Vegas.

okay than betspin might only have that rule for brits cuz they told me few months back my bonus didnt credit because i used neteller n now everytime i receive an email its stated there, no neteller/skrill for bonuses

 

[mina1929]

okay than betspin might only have that rule for brits cuz they told me few months back my bonus didnt credit because i used neteller n now everytime i receive an email its stated there, no neteller/skrill for bonuses

Must be, I mainly use their 40% bonus and no problem using Neteller. Casino Cruise I get a lot of good offers 75% bonus etc but no Neteller it annoys me. lol

 

[SlotGrinder]

Zap987 is right . Because wagering instantly becomes zero if a player goes bust . It's way better to play max bet whilst on a bonus and either bust quickly or hit big wins and then have more chance of completing wagering . That's why casinos have a max bet rule AND the rule about not drastically reducing your stake when in profit . Because the optimal way to play is go large at the start and then when in big profit it's just a case of completing wagering and at that point the lowest stakes provide the safest route to securing that cashout

I don't know of a slot variance simulator but here is an example for roulette adjusted to 96% RTP doing 10000 trial runs for each betsize . As you can see as the betsize increases the average return increases and the maximum return increases . On the negative side the chance of busting increases also BUT on average you will win more (with bigger winning sessions which is fun of course)

£100 deposit + £100 bonus = £200 start balance

£5000 wagering

Betsize £1

Avg End Balance £71
Max End Balance £378
Chance of gain 31%
Chance of Bust 23%

Betsize £2

Avg End Balance £77
Max End Balance £432
Chance of Gain 35%
Chance of Bust 35%

Betsize £4

Avg End Balance £91
Max End Balance £592
Chance of Gain 40%
Chance of Bust 45%

Betsize £5

Avg End Balance £93
Max End Balance £660
Chance of Gain 38%
Chance of Bust 49%

--------------------------------------

Betsize £10

Avg End Balance £108
Max End Balance £1000
Chance of Gain 36%
Chance of Bust 57%

Betsize £100

Avg End Balance £147
Max End Balance £2600
Chance of gain 18%
Chance of Bust 82%

Of course slots are not the same as roulette so these numbers are just to give an idea of the principle but the fact is that bigger bets = more money won (or less lost) per £1 wagered

Having said all that , playing slots is not a sound financial decision to begin with so you may want to sacrifice some financial ev for increased playtime and maybe entertainment . Plus bonuses don't grow on trees and you can't instantly start a new bonus if you bust the 1st one so for these reasons it makes sense to lower your stakes if you prefer . From a purely financial standpoint though you want to stake as high as possible whilst playing with bonus funds

 

[mina1929]

and now I'm lost again....well almost

Surely the more spins the merrier, more random outcomes 96% of which should be in a players favour

Don't worry I am lost as well, we will just low roll all the way to the bank

 

[Harry_BKK]

Not so much thick as looking at it from the wrong direction. Look at it from the casinos perspective, your 100 bet is one of many thousand bets they will handle each day. They don't care about each individual bets outcome, only about the long run. In the long run, for each 100 bet on roulette, they will profit 2.7.

With all due respect that is totally misleading just like your other posts. Stop saying that a casino/game operator and the whole industry is living off 3-4% as it is laughable at best. Do you really believe that yourself? Would Wynn and friends be really billionaires? Would this industry be in such a boom over a 3-4% profit margin?

If i deposit 100$ and lose it then the casino made 100 gross profit....They have to pay though the game operator, overheads, tax etc., but it is 100$ gross profit. Period!

I'll try to explain it in a simple way. The one and only way casinos would make only 3-4% is the following:

- deposit 100$, make 100 spins @ 1$, withdraw the balance
- deposit again 100$, make 100 spins @ 1$, withdraw the balance
- ...repeat infinite times with an infinite number of players and it would average out at 96-97%, whatever the RTP for the slot is
- this would be the only way for a casino to be left with whatever edge the RTP is providing
- result would be that all casinos and game operators would go bust in a relatively short period or investors would just lose interest in the industry as you can get a higher ROI on far safer options.

However:

- when you start re-staking the "wins" from the balance after 100 spins that is when the casino is making real profit.
- the RTP is calculated on the total of all wins a slot is giving, including the very small ones which are immediately re-staked.
- we keep re-betting our "wins" until the balance is gone
- hence, even with a high RTP for your session you still lose your deposit because you keep re-betting
- end result: the casino made 100$ profit, even when your RTP was exactly the TRTP.

The real gross profit of a casino is deposits - withdrawals! Nothing else.

I would welcome it if all would stop telling this magic fairy tale that all these so "poor and innocent" casinos live off just 3-4% as it is totally misleading uninformed, inexperienced players into the believe they can deposit 100$, play as long as they like and stand to lose only 3-4$ when they stake the 100$. We all know that it is not true!

 

[syrus2]

With all due respect that is totally misleading just like your other posts. Stop saying that a casino/game operator and the whole industry is living off 3-4% as it is laughable at best. Do you really believe that yourself? Would Wynn and friends be really billionaires? Would this industry be in such a boom over a 3-4% profit margin?

If i deposit 100$ and lose it then the casino made 100 gross profit....They have to pay though the game operator, overheads, tax etc., but it is 100$ gross profit. Period!

I'll try to explain it in a simple way. The one and only way casinos would make only 3-4% is the following:

- deposit 100$, make 100 spins @ 1$, withdraw the balance
- deposit again 100$, make 100 spins @ 1$, withdraw the balance
- ...repeat infinite times with an infinite number of players and it would average out at 96-97%, whatever the RTP for the slot is
- this would be the only way for a casino to be left with whatever edge the RTP is providing
- result would be that all casinos and game operators would go bust in a relatively short period or investors would just lose interest in the industry as you can get a higher ROI on far safer options.

However:

- when you start re-staking the "wins" from the balance after 100 spins that is when the casino is making real profit.
- the RTP is calculated on the total of all wins a slot is giving, including the very small ones which are immediately re-staked.
- we keep re-betting our "wins" until the balance is gone
- hence, even with a high RTP for your session you still lose your deposit because you keep re-betting
- end result: the casino made 100$ profit, even when your RTP was exactly the TRTP.

The real gross profit of a casino is deposits - withdrawals! Nothing else.

I would welcome it if all would stop telling this magic fairy tale that all these so "poor and innocent" casinos live off just 3-4% as it is totally misleading uninformed, inexperienced players into the believe they can deposit 100$, play as long as they like and stand to lose only 3-4$ when they stake the 100$. We all know that it is not true!

Of cors Not , That's just a myth .
A casino would'nt even bother to set up suche investment if it came to 3/4 prct profit !!

 

[zap987]

With all due respect that is totally misleading just like your other posts. Stop saying that a casino/game operator and the whole industry is living off 3-4% as it is laughable at best. Do you really believe that yourself? Would Wynn and friends be really billionaires? Would this industry be in such a boom over a 3-4% profit margin?

If i deposit 100$ and lose it then the casino made 100 gross profit....They have to pay though the game operator, overheads, tax etc., but it is 100$ gross profit. Period!

I'll try to explain it in a simple way. The one and only way casinos would make only 3-4% is the following:

- deposit 100$, make 100 spins @ 1$, withdraw the balance
- deposit again 100$, make 100 spins @ 1$, withdraw the balance
- ...repeat infinite times with an infinite number of players and it would average out at 96-97%, whatever the RTP for the slot is
- this would be the only way for a casino to be left with whatever edge the RTP is providing
- result would be that all casinos and game operators would go bust in a relatively short period or investors would just lose interest in the industry as you can get a higher ROI on far safer options.

However:

- when you start re-staking the "wins" from the balance after 100 spins that is when the casino is making real profit.
- the RTP is calculated on the total of all wins a slot is giving, including the very small ones which are immediately re-staked.
- we keep re-betting our "wins" until the balance is gone
- hence, even with a high RTP for your session you still lose your deposit because you keep re-betting
- end result: the casino made 100$ profit, even when your RTP was exactly the TRTP.

The real gross profit of a casino is deposits - withdrawals! Nothing else.

I would welcome it if all would stop telling this magic fairy tale that all these so "poor and innocent" casinos live off just 3-4% as it is totally misleading uninformed, inexperienced players into the believe they can deposit 100$, play as long as they like and stand to lose only 3-4$ when they stake the 100$. We all know that it is not true!

Do you realise that you are using this wall of text to think you disagree with me when in fact you are agreeing? By betting low when using a bonus you will keep re-staking your money over and over and the RTP will eat it all. The casinos live off a few %, but few % of a very large number because as you say people will keep betting the same money over and over. The same applies to any bonus money they give out, they only win it back if we keep betting it over and over.

There is nothing misleading, bonuses are +EV for the player in most cases as long as the player adjusts betsize towards maximum allowed.

 

[spintee]

I agree that casino can not survive on a 3 -4% margins, Unless of course there taking in millions, They have to rent the games, pay staff, bills, offices, internet connections, phone lines the list goes on,

A big win can whack a casino out of the game, But its swings and round abouts, You could lose 1k on one site than win it back of another

 

[dunover]

Do you realise that you are using this wall of text to think you disagree with me when in fact you are agreeing? By betting low when using a bonus you will keep re-staking your money over and over and the RTP will eat it all. The casinos live off a few %, but few % of a very large number because as you say people will keep betting the same money over and over. The same applies to any bonus money they give out, they only win it back if we keep betting it over and over.

There is nothing misleading, bonuses are +EV for the player in most cases as long as the player adjusts betsize towards maximum allowed.

Er.....using your argument against you here:

In the long run you said house edge is 2.7% in one example. I bet 1000x £10 house makes 9730 according to you. I bet 10000x £1 house makes 2.7% er.... 9730 in the long run.

They win the bonus back (and the corresponding deposit) when we LOSE irrespective of how many plays we have and at which stake.

Then we must look at the most important statistic in SLOTGRINDER'S table - the chances of bust INCREASE exponentially with an increase in stake!! The 'chance of gain' remains consistent on all stakes (30-40%) until he blows it in 2 games of £100. Therefore, as I said, the bonus he uses is 50xB EV-.............
And then you both go on to say the casinos prohibit large stakes under bonus and 'big-hit-then-small-stakes' play anyway!

Your arguments are moot both mathematically and practically.

Jon Mincher for example gets his £50 match - is he interested in playing a long-term strategy at that casino whereby he will sacrifice his bonus and deposit in 20 spins or is he trying for the chance to grind it out, cash it in and make a profit today after having had some fun? Whichever, he will still be getting a 96% TRTP.

Whether your casino wins the £200 off of you in a thousand spins or twenty spins is irrelevant to them. And this subject is getting bogged down in pedantry because people have dug themselves in a hole and are trying to dig themselves out using totally pointless examples that are prohibited in the bonus terms anyway.

The OP was simply asking if it's practical to take bonuses for profit because he's worried about hitting a win and then the large WR thereafter. All I have said is that it depends on the WR multiples attached to the bonus. I still stand by that and I think most players here do too, as we often see them make comments criticizing outlandish WRs like 60xB or 35xD+B.

If the others here are consistently beating EV- bonuses with their 'strategy' then of course they can show us bonus-ban e-mails, spreadsheets of EV- bonuses cashed in etc?

The math is indisputable - at ANY stakes the games pay the same TRTP. Anything over 25xB means the long-term odds favour the casino

 

[spintee]

Take it from me, And I think Jon will agree on this, I am a bonus man, I have probably took more than most players, Bonus is there for extra play and thats about it, I am not saying you canot beat them as I have many of times, It always works out in favour of the casino, As if you on a lucky streak than it does not matter if its 30x or 300x as for some reason you will either bust quick or play for ever,

I am really surprised why casino do not offer more bonus than they do? Take DrVegas for example, send out bonus every day, let it be 50% or 100% or 10 free spins or £5 worth of points, Verry rare there is not an offer, Withdraw cash any time, Yet I am still way out of pocket ?

Just take redbets 400% the other day, had some cracking wins including a £275 on 40p but busted But like I said I would take them any day of the week, as 99% of the time I bust or lose cash any way,

If I had deeper pockets I would not dream of taking a bonus, I would on sites like Drvegas as you have nothing to lose, I think a £4 - 5 cap on max bet and no jackpots,

 

[zap987]

The casinos don't offer more bonuses, because unlike people here they actually know math. Those that don't went out of business.

What dunover is failing to see in Slotgrinders table are the important numbers. Average end balance-100 is the actual EV of the bonus. Notice how it goes up at the same time as betsize. Yes the chance of bust goes up, that's the whole point, but also the max end balance goes up. By betting higher you will have fewer cashout but for larger amounts, and you will wager less in the long run turning the bonus into an advantage.

The answer to the original question is: Yes, it is practical to take bonuses for profit, as long as you adjust your betsize upwards. If you take bonuses for increased playtime and keep bets low, they are bad for EV but good for playtime.

This is completely opposite of dunovers initial statment that bonuses are for grinders playing 0.20 bets, that is the worst possible way to play a bonus and if people take his advice as truth it will cost them money.

 

[spintee]

I think maths is out of the question when it comes to gambling, No matter what table your working from it is impossible to work out the real odds,

I think saying that people on here do not know maths is abit rude, If casino know the maths than its about bugger all they do know, I am a prime example of taking bonus and grinding away, It rarely works out, So yes in theory beting big is probably the way to go but also take note that you can bust out real quick,

The casinos don't offer more bonuses, because unlike people here they actually know math. Those that don't went out of business.

What dunover is failing to see in Slotgrinders table are the important numbers. Average end balance-100 is the actual EV of the bonus. Notice how it goes up at the same time as betsize. Yes the chance of bust goes up, that's the whole point, but also the max end balance goes up. By betting higher you will have fewer cashout but for larger amounts, and you will wager less in the long run turning the bonus into an advantage.

The answer to the original question is: Yes, it is practical to take bonuses for profit, as long as you adjust your betsize upwards. If you take bonuses for increased playtime and keep bets low, they are bad for EV but good for playtime.

This is completely opposite of dunovers initial statment that bonuses are for grinders playing 0.20 bets, that is the worst possible way to play a bonus and if people take his advice as truth it will cost them money.