Does everyone use the bonuses?

Savatage79

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Just curious, I haven't used them as I felt the amount you had to spin over before you can withdraw seemed high, is the idea to just hopefully hit big while using their money and not worry about the amount in which you have to spin?

I just didn't want to win some and not be able to take it out due to using the bonuses. But perhaps I'm going about it wrong
 

syrus2

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Same here . I never take them. as you mantioned, mostly useful if you hit Sumthing big. although, sent a mail to Energy casino last wk an asked them about (t & c Bet an that kind of stuff). I gotta say, They had a intresting offer. so I May gonna take it an give it a try. you never know what may happens. also depends on what kind of bonus. IMO 100 prct above your depo, would be worth to give it a try ( depending on t & c, of course).
Having said that , plnty players ve won an got through the wgr an cashed out . So , it's the matter of
personal preference i gusse !!
 

Jono777

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As has been mentioned many times bonuses are there for the casinos not the player.

However they do serve a good purpose if used correctly.

I like to win, in fact I love to win and I adore withdrawals, however these I consider in the main as added extra.

The main reason I deposit is for game time / play time, kill the boredom, share some good videos and screen shots and get a buzz from big hits.

In this case a bonus can be a huge boost, especially if your a low roller with a limited gaming budget like me. (Also never in danger of even getting close to max bet sizes allowed when playing with a bonus :p)

Now I always put play time first but also have realism and a withdrawal in the back of my mind.

So yes I like to take bonuses (I'd say 70% - 80% of my total deposits are with bonuses) BUT I will not take ones with ridiculous wagering requirements attached.

In fact I was thinking only the other day about starting a thread aimed at casino reps to readdress the insane WR at their casino(s) (you know who your are :p)

Best to reads all T&C's as much of a chore as this may seem before playing with any bonuses.
 

mina1929

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I only take bonuses at certain Casinos 32 Red is being one of them as the wagering is not high and can play all the games.
I don't think there is any bet restrictions either only for the welcome bonus I think.

Guts & Betspin I like taking their 40% double bonus :)

I don't take Bonuses where Neteller is not allowed.
 

Deeplay

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I used to take every bonus known to man kind. But the last few years and have taken them less and less. I would say 90% of my deposits are without a bonus. I cant stand getting wrapped into high wagering requirments and all the game restriction and max bet restrictions. So prefer to play it straight with my own cash win or loose.

I will take a 100% with a decent WR 30x or there abouts and if its over 100% match bonus but anything under I dont see the point. But do understand many like them to get more from the money time wise etc. Personal choice I suppose. But these days I stick with sites such as Video slots who have wager free payback built in. This past week managed around £50 quid in race wins, and cash back all wager free and FS from the free
 

KasinoKing

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As above, I take them if the WR is not crazy, as that virtually guarantees you will lose.
Although I have taken a few with high % matches & stupidly high WR just for the fun of the extended play-time.

KK
 

dunover

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Nope. Bonuses are for the 'grinders' players who love to plug away at 20/30p spins all the while hoping that they may cash out a free 20 or 30 quid for their trouble. Casinos offer them in the main because firstly they reduce greatly the chance of a player cashing out from that deposit and secondly they reduce their affiliate payments with them.

The huge majority of them will never be near EV let alone EV+ and that should tell the story. Just in case you may have fun while using the bonus many will prohibit games like Bitchmaster/DoA or even whole softwares like WMS on them. And if you're a clever bastard who ekes out the best math on them they'll prohibit high RTP games.

They're bugger-all to do with 'extending gameplay' as the casinos profess - after all if you last 10 hours before busting all you have are square eyes, a headache and as well as wasting your deposit you've wasted your power at home. Whether the bonus lasts 20 minutes or 8 hours, the casino doesn't give a flying one, the result is still the same for them - you lose.:rolleyes:

Oh! And just in case you win they may remove it from the withdrawal or if not cap the withdrawal.

The thing is, now I have seen the affiliate side of things the bonus brings players back. I have tens of existing players at sites like Redbet/Whitebet (who rarely give bonuses) that seldom play, and I've noticed the sites that offer daily bonuses or more than 1 a week tend to get repeat play from existing players on a weekly or monthly basis.

So in general it's a self-fulfilling cycle - players are used to them, so the casinos offer them, so the players expect them and then play at those sites despite the EV- math.:cool:
 

zap987

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So much misinformation. Bonuses are quite often +ev as long as you adapt your betsize. There is a reason they never have a minimum bet with bonuses but almost always a max bet.
 

dunover

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So much misinformation. Bonuses are quite often +ev as long as you adapt your betsize. There is a reason they never have a minimum bet with bonuses but almost always a max bet.

Show me an EV+ SUB? Betsize is irrelevant as the WR/RTP decide whether the bonus is EV+ or not. The only reason bet size is limited is that one relatively small hit (say 50x stake) at a larger stake say of 10e would then make it nearly certain the player cashes the bonus out by reducing stakes from thereon in - simply because his balance would then make it EV+ when the remaining WR is taken into consideration.

Betsize over time makes no difference - 100x3e spins on a 96% RTP slot will produce the same result as 1000x 0.3e spins.
 

Jono777

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Could someone please give me a nice and simple example of what EV+/- is and how it works.

I have succeeded more often than failed whilst playing bonuses over the years so want to know exactly how momentous my achievement is :D

Edit: I've also accidentally caught the <CTRL> and some other key whilst posting this and its totally changed my font on CM, any ideas what I've done here also please?
 

slotter999

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I personally never take bonuses. Can't be arsed with the T&Cs attached to them and believe ultimately they exist to prevent you cashing out.
 

spintee

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I not read the posts, I got by half way Jons than decide to post,

Bonus only good for casion, now when most got max cash etc, Bonus is always god for smal player, Not only does it increase you start but also a chalange, Some sites sites are worthles as max cash out on most 888 / casva sites is 400, yes not many small rollers take out a 400 but it seems thats the only times you win,

I would take bonus as small roller,I if had the cash than I would not think of it
 

dunover

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Could someone please give me a nice and simple example of what EV+/- is and how it works.

I have succeeded more often than failed whilst playing bonuses over the years so want to know exactly how momentous my achievement is :D

Edit: I've also accidentally caught the <CTRL> and some other key whilst posting this and its totally changed my font on CM, any ideas what I've done here also please?

OK say the game TRTP is 96% of slots you play (most are around that).

You get £100% for £100 so you have £200.

The wagering is 25x bonus.

So you need to wager 2,500. You will lose 1/25th (4%) of each pound. So 2500x 4p = £100. You will end up with your £100 deposit so EV = you won't lose nor win.

The wagering is 20x bonus. 2000 x 4p = £80 so EV+ slightly as you would cash out £120.

Wagering 30 x bonus = 3000 x 4p so 120 lost so you would be left with 80 of your 100 deposit so slightly EV-

35 X bonus say like 32red so 3500 x 4p = £140 lost £60 left of your deposit so lose 40 overall.

So in the 30-45x bonus range you are EV-.

50 x bonus or equivalent (like 25x D+B) is where you hit the stupidity point - on average you will make wagering after losing your £100+£100 bonus as 5000 x 4p = £200.

Anything higher than 25x D+B or 50 x B should be avoided.

Between 25x B and 50 x B you have a sliding scale of chance of redeeming like 50%-40%-30% (not exact figures but an idea of your chance of withdrawing £200 by the time WR is met.) :)
 

zap987

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EV means expected value and EV+ is generally used to indicate the player has an advantage in the long run, EV- an advantage for the casino.

The flaw that is still being made in these calculations is that people are still considering you ALWAYS fulfill the full WR on every deposit. Both me and other people have tried to explain this many times before and it's definitely not intuitive, but the reason a lot of casino bonuses even with very high WR are EV+ for the player is that if you bet high enough you will bust out a lot before meeting full WR.

To take an extreme example, lets say Casino A opens up. They offer a 100% 100x(D+B) bonus. 100 people decide to take this offer, they deposit 100, get 200 to play with and a 20k WR. The casino has now gotten 10k from these players in deposits. 100x(D+B) is of course a terrible deal, not many offers are that bad. Everyone is expected to lose 1000 while fulfilling WR so the casino thinks they are safe.

They all go to play the same slot, this slot has 95% RTP, 99/100 you lose and 1/100 you win 95x your bet. So 99 of the 100 people play 1 spin at 200, lose and bust out. The last person however wins 19000 and he will have a WR of 19800 left. At 95% RTP he is expected to lose 990 more and can then cash out 18010. It doesn't really matter how this player plays out the remainder of the WR, even if he sticks to high bets the RTP is still the same.

In the end the casino is down 8010 and the bonus was EV+ for the players, just the variance was very high. The single thing that makes this happen is the fact that when a player busts out before meeting the WR, less play is generated to give the casino a chance to make money.

While you will never find a slot like this in the real world the example is still valid for lower betsizes and lower variance. It does reduce the player advantage the more restrictions there are on maximum betsize since you are less likely to bust out fast and therefore wager more. In short, bet the max allowed and play high variance slots, you will have an advantage over the casino on pretty much any bonus as long as there is no max cashout. Just don't ever think of playtime, playtime is good for the casino.
 

Jono777

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Thanks Guys :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Knew how Wagering and bonus benefits the casino in the main and only benefits players if lady luck is in their corner at the time.

Never understood this EV at all but glad to say I do now :)

Thank you both for the detailed explanations and examples, much appreciated.
 

interlog

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EV means expected value and EV+ is generally used to indicate the player has an advantage in the long run, EV- an advantage for the casino.

The flaw that is still being made in these calculations is that people are still considering you ALWAYS fulfill the full WR on every deposit. Both me and other people have tried to explain this many times before and it's definitely not intuitive, but the reason a lot of casino bonuses even with very high WR are EV+ for the player is that if you bet high enough you will bust out a lot before meeting full WR.

To take an extreme example, lets say Casino A opens up. They offer a 100% 100x(D+B) bonus. 100 people decide to take this offer, they deposit 100, get 200 to play with and a 20k WR. The casino has now gotten 10k from these players in deposits. 100x(D+B) is of course a terrible deal, not many offers are that bad. Everyone is expected to lose 1000 while fulfilling WR so the casino thinks they are safe.

They all go to play the same slot, this slot has 95% RTP, 99/100 you lose and 1/100 you win 95x your bet. So 99 of the 100 people play 1 spin at 200, lose and bust out. The last person however wins 19000 and he will have a WR of 19800 left. At 95% RTP he is expected to lose 990 more and can then cash out 18010. It doesn't really matter how this player plays out the remainder of the WR, even if he sticks to high bets the RTP is still the same.

In the end the casino is down 8010 and the bonus was EV+ for the players, just the variance was very high. The single thing that makes this happen is the fact that when a player busts out before meeting the WR, less play is generated to give the casino a chance to make money.

While you will never find a slot like this in the real world the example is still valid for lower betsizes and lower variance. It does reduce the player advantage the more restrictions there are on maximum betsize since you are less likely to bust out fast and therefore wager more. In short, bet the max allowed and play high variance slots, you will have an advantage over the casino on pretty much any bonus as long as there is no max cashout. Just don't ever think of playtime, playtime is good for the casino.

Or that person could have deposited 200 and walked away with a 18800 profit rather than 17910.

I hardly ever play with bonuses simply because if you hit big you can walk away rather than attempt to clear the wagering.
 

brianmon

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I take a bonus on about 80% of my deposits, and cash-out from them about 70% of the time.
Last month's minion data with show I made around 25 withdrawals last month alone. the vast majority of those were from a bonus.
In fact I cash-out more often from a bonus, than from a cash deposit.

I do tend to stick to bonuses with 30-45% WR. But I've often taken on the likes of Energy casino's reload bonus of 90xWR, and had some decent cash-outs even from them.

It's all about good bankroll management, choosing the right variance game at the right time, and at the appropriate stake for that game and your balance.
 

zap987

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Or that person could have deposited 200 and walked away with a 18800 profit rather than 17910.

I hardly ever play with bonuses simply because if you hit big you can walk away rather than attempt to clear the wagering.

Of course, but you do need to realise that over 100 deposits that way you will end up losing 1000 to the casino instead of winning 8000 from them.
Nothing at all wrong with playing without bonuses, but it's important to know what the choice to be able to cash out whenever you want costs in the long run.
 

interlog

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Of course, but you do need to realise that over 100 deposits that way you will end up losing 1000 to the casino instead of winning 8000 from them.
Nothing at all wrong with playing without bonuses, but it's important to know what the choice to be able to cash out whenever you want costs in the long run.

Peace of mind, not having to worry about breaking T's and C's and being able to cash out when you feel like it are good enough reasons for me to continue playing without a bonus.

I've seen others play with bonuses on stream and more often than not they still don't make a withdrawal, even when playing your suggested system of playing the biggest bets allowed on high variance machines.
 

brianmon

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I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It's all down to personal preference, whether you do or don't take a bonus.

I do think, however, that you need a decent starting balance to play a bonus successfully.

I'd never dream of taking a 50% bonus on a £20 deposit, I'd rather just deposit the extra £10. But i would take 50% on £100 deposit.
 
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