Diamond Games Steal IP

Geoff Hall

Dormant account
As part of my work as a games inventor, I am involved with another company that produces a casino-style Hold'Em variant. The game is mainly in land-based casinos around Europe.

My colleague has asked me to post this, on his behalf, as he has been notified of his game being used, on the Internet, without permission :-

Texas Hold'em Poker as a House Game

Please note that I am the owner of the Intellectual Property Rights (patent
and copyright material) for Texas Hold'em as a House Game against the
Dealer.

I have not granted any licence to Diamond Games
(
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,
Stan James Casino (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
,
Carib Sports Casino (www.caribsportscasino.com) or Blues Club Casino
(www.bluesclubcasino.com)
to use my game (Casino Hold'em Poker) on the Internet and therefore as at
to-day (25/Aug/2005) such use infringes my IPR and is without consent.

The unauthorised use of my game has only recently been drawn to my
attention.
Does anyone out there know of any other on-line use of the game, Texas
Hold'em Poker against the dealer?

If so please e-mail me at S@MillenniumCasinoGames.com


Stephen Au-Yeung
Proprietor Millennium Casino Games

Thankyou for reading this,

Best regards

Geoff
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Geoff Hall said:
As part of my work as a games inventor, I am involved with another company that produces a casino-style Hold'Em variant. The game is mainly in land-based casinos around Europe.

My colleague has asked me to post this, on his behalf, as he has been notified of his game being used, on the Internet, without permission :-

Texas Hold'em Poker as a House Game

Please note that I am the owner of the Intellectual Property Rights (patent
and copyright material) for Texas Hold'em as a House Game against the
Dealer.

I have not granted any licence to Diamond Games
(
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
,
Stan James Casino (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
,
Carib Sports Casino (www.caribsportscasino.com) or Blues Club Casino
(www.bluesclubcasino.com)
to use my game (Casino Hold'em Poker) on the Internet and therefore as at
to-day (25/Aug/2005) such use infringes my IPR and is without consent.

The unauthorised use of my game has only recently been drawn to my
attention.
Does anyone out there know of any other on-line use of the game, Texas
Hold'em Poker against the dealer?

If so please e-mail me at S@MillenniumCasinoGames.com


Stephen Au-Yeung
Proprietor Millennium Casino Games

Thankyou for reading this,

Best regards

Geoff
Mansion Casino has it.

Out of interest, are game ideas copyrightable and enforceable?

I thought the sites just changed the names and that was it.

Like 3 card poker, which I'm sure has not been licensed by most of the software providers.
 

mary

Dormant account
Game designs (the mechanics/procedures of the game) are patentable in the US.

They may not be outside of the US; UK explicitly calls out games as unpatentable. The actual name of the game has trademark protection internationally.

Software companies based in the US (such as Realtime Gaming) have to honor game designer's rights. I would think that reputable companies in other jurisdictions would do so and certainly any company that has any hope of doing business in the US should it even become a regulated jurisdiction would do so (Wagerworks, Cryptologic).

Diamond I'm afraid has always been sleazy.
 

eek

Dormant account
Thanks Mary.
I did wonder about that stuff because the US has some pretty daft patent laws compared to other western countries.

Software is currently under threat, apparently Amazon has the "Patent" for one click payments in the USA.
Apparently such unique genius should not go unrecognised :notworthy

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tends to be the route other places use.

So if I tweak BJ slightly and rotate who's the dealer every three hands I can call it eekBJ and patent it.... :D

...they could start it up at those online poker sites that are already loaded with tables of players and take a rake...

PokerBJ a "new" patented game !

Easy Peasy...

If you ask me the present US Patent laws are a muppets charter but the underlying reason is political.
Open source software is a huge threat to US
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and iffy patent laws are a good barrier to external threats.
 
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dominique

Dormant account
Wasn't there a case involving Dr.Ho and Webcam? Or something like that?

There is a very fuzzy recollection of this in the recesses of my mind...
 

mary

Dormant account
That was a patent on using the internet to gamble, as opposed to a patent on a specific game.

I think Ho and Webcam paid an inventor in the UK; I think he's being paid by some other companies too.
 

scrollock

Senior Member
Geoff Hall said:
As part of my work as a games inventor, I am involved with another company that produces a casino-style Hold'Em variant. The game is mainly in land-based casinos around Europe.

My colleague has asked me to post this, on his behalf, as he has been notified of his game being used, on the Internet, without permission :-

Texas Hold'em Poker as a House Game

Please note that I am the owner of the Intellectual Property Rights (patent
and copyright material) for Texas Hold'em as a House Game against the
Dealer.

I have not granted any licence to Diamond Games
(
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
,
Stan James Casino (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
,
Carib Sports Casino (www.caribsportscasino.com) or Blues Club Casino
(www.bluesclubcasino.com)
to use my game (Casino Hold'em Poker) on the Internet and therefore as at
to-day (25/Aug/2005) such use infringes my IPR and is without consent.

The unauthorised use of my game has only recently been drawn to my
attention.
Does anyone out there know of any other on-line use of the game, Texas
Hold'em Poker against the dealer?

If so please e-mail me at S@MillenniumCasinoGames.com


Stephen Au-Yeung
Proprietor Millennium Casino Games

Thankyou for reading this,

Best regards

Geoff
in the UK most bookmakers include in their contract of employement with you, a clause regarding intellectual property rights to anything you may develop for them while in their employment. thus i think it must be a legal concept that is enforceable.
 

Geoff Hall

Dormant account
scrollock said:
in the UK most bookmakers include in their contract of employement with you, a clause regarding intellectual property rights to anything you may develop for them while in their employment. thus i think it must be a legal concept that is enforceable.
Scrollock

In fairness I believe that Stan James has removed the game from it's site pending investigation.

This would add weight to what you say.
 

Annorax

Dormant account
Something tells me this is the sort of thing an attorney could sort out a lot quicker and more effectively than anyone on these forums...unless Bryan happens to be an IP lawyer and didn't tell us :cool:

One thing you could do to try to sort this out would be to file for an American patent on either holdem as a table game or holdem in general. Current Patent Office policy allows for patenting
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, regardless of prior use, current use, or anything else that would matter in a civilized country. :p If Microsoft can get away with it, you can too.
 

Macgyver

Dormant account
PABnononaccred
KasinoKing said:
Geoff,
As you know so much about this game, can you tell me why this was a push?
(I would win in 'normal' hold'em!)
It looks like (to me) it's because the Queen of Diamonds was the high card in the flush, but the Queen was a community card.

Isn't there a small line near both hands that says "Flush Q" or is that just my bad eyesight?
 

GrandMaster

Ueber Meister
CAG
Annorax said:
. Current Patent Office policy allows for patenting
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, regardless of prior use, current use, or anything else that would matter in a civilized country.
Not quite.

US CODE, TITLE 35, PART II, CHAPTER 10, 102

"A person shall be entitled to a patent unless
(a) the invention was known or used by others in this country, or patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country, before the invention thereof by the applicant for patent, or
(b) the invention was patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country, more than one year prior to the date of the application for patent in the United States, or"
 

pokeraddict

Webmaster
Macgyver said:
It looks like (to me) it's because the Queen of Diamonds was the high card in the flush, but the Queen was a community card.

Isn't there a small line near both hands that says "Flush Q" or is that just my bad eyesight?
Check out the kickers, the player wins this hand. This is an obvious bug or a bad rule. What did support say when you emailed them or did you not?
 

Geoff Hall

Dormant account
KasinoKing,

This is the problem with companies who just use the game without checking the rules/software with the designer. You should have won that hand and been paid 2/1 on your ante for the flush, so you should have made a $4 profit on the hand.

GrandMaster,

You are correct that you cannot patent something that is considered 'Common Knowledge' i.e has been released into the public domian. Say, for example, that you designed a completely new game and you had it installed on an Internet site. After that you would not be able to patent it - you have to do that before any release to other people.

As far as the Hold'Em poker goes, there is a fine line between what is considered common knowledge and what can be patentable. Aside from copyright issues, the game here is protected by at least 3 full (not pending) patents. Although certain elements of 'Casino Hold'Em Poker' contain common knowledge there was enough inventiveness for the examiner to issue a US patent on the design.

Thanks for all your replies.

Best regards

Geoff
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Hi Geoff,

Does your client have a lawyer? This is definately something that needs to be addressed by someone who has expertise in this field. If he is in Europe, I can put you in touch with one who deals with this sort of thing.
 

Geoff Hall

Dormant account
casinomeister said:
Hi Geoff,

Does your client have a lawyer? This is definately something that needs to be addressed by someone who has expertise in this field. If he is in Europe, I can put you in touch with one who deals with this sort of thing.
Thanks Bryan,

If your contact is based in England then that could be very useful as we are both based there. However, any professional assistance should put him better in the picture.

I ought to contact my lawyer in Las Vegas but thought (maybe wrongly) that because of the US Internet laws he would not be able to help.

If you could kindly email him any details then I will notify him although I know that he is following this thread.

Best regards

Geoff
 

Annorax

Dormant account
GrandMaster said:
Not quite.

US CODE, TITLE 35, PART II, CHAPTER 10, 102

"A person shall be entitled to a patent unless
(a) the invention was known or used by others in this country, or patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country, before the invention thereof by the applicant for patent, or
(b) the invention was patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country, more than one year prior to the date of the application for patent in the United States, or"
Check the article. If Microsoft can get away with retroactive patenting, there's a good chance Geoff can too, especially since he (IMHO, not lawyer, don't rely on my opinion) rightfully should have a patent on that game.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
pokeraddict said:
Check out the kickers, the player wins this hand. This is an obvious bug or a bad rule. What did support say when you emailed them or did you not?
I didn't bother - it was only $4 lost.
But having read more of this thread I might just contact them now.
Mansion are rumoured to have very good CS - so lets see what they say about this 'bug' and their apparent 'stealing' of IP.

Macgyver, your eyesight is fine - but maybe you need to review how similar poker hands are compared! ;)
 

Macgyver

Dormant account
PABnononaccred
KasinoKing said:
Macgyver, your eyesight is fine - but maybe you need to review how similar poker hands are compared! ;)
Ask me about blackjack or some bonus-related questions, KK, and I can come up with answers. ;)

Just never got into the poker craze ...
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
I contacted Mansion, and their CS was very quick in responding. :thumbsup:

They have now pulled this game while they investigate the payout problem with their software.
(Shame - I like this game!)

They declined to comment on the 'stealing IP' issue.
 
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