Cracking the slot reels - Here you go!

[Zoozie]

I will be collecting a few 1000 spins on several machines, and maby some of you people can program a little piece of software to calculate between the reel positions to see if its random or not? This would be a job for maby you and zoozie?

Sure. Just give me a text-file and I will parse it at run the statistics. 1000 spins is a decent sample size as this would give about 30 hits on each position.

But I think your afford will be wasted. I am very certain slots like Thunderstruck and newer not are weighted but that the old slots are indeed weighted.

Zoozie

 

[steinhaug]

Sure. Just give me a text-file and I will parse it at run the statistics. 1000 spins is a decent sample size as this would give about 30 hits on each position.

Nice, I will.

But I think your afford will be wasted. I am very certain slots like Thunderstruck and newer not are weighted but that the old slots are indeed weighted.

Lets indeed hope so, I'm collecting on HOHOHO now, and will do some 1000s on Thunderstruck on low bet and on high bet, since I'm sure there are a difference here (some people in here are very against this). Now we can accually know for sure, We can accually close the discussion soon!

 

[steinhaug]

One more thing, interestingly enough - I also get the reel positions for each spin in freespin mode, so we can infact compare the freespin reelpositions with the positions earlier. Surely the data for freespins will not be so big since there arnt that many spins. But anyway.

 

[steinhaug]

Ok, here are 2380 spins in freeplay from HOHOHO on $1.5 wagering all lines. I might also add that the spins were pretty much 100% payout, didn't loose anything. The next post will be more interesting - maby - from Thunderstruck on $4.5 wagering, since I hit a very dry spell here.

The format is:

reelposition comma seperated|freespin(bool)|spintype
- - - - -
Alot of edits here, but attached you find a PNG with the total calculations from normal play besides freeplay. I took a PNG since then we have better formatting. The HTML is also included if you need the numbers.

 

[Kaynos72]

Very nice work, how did you do that ? I mean, you did not write each spin down 1 at the time ?

 

[steinhaug]

Very nice work, how did you do that ? I mean, you did not write each spin down 1 at the time ?

Nono, I simply set it on autospin and grab the XML-feeds from the server, then I parse the XML with a short little PHP script I tossed together, and calculate the %. So all in all it's pretty much automatic now, all i need is to set the autoplay and go!

 

[hobobiker]

Hehe, going thorugh action scripting is a lot of fun but most likely the flash binaries we download are only for presentational purposes (as you figured out by not finding what your were looking for). The interesting thing is that all reels, payouts, gamble, whatever are fed in the XML stream. The SWF binarie is just a handy tool that will visually show whatever the XML stream wants it to be.

Hehe ........sounds about as much fun as lying in a South American prison cell with your kneecaps smashed off.

 

[KasinoKing]

Zoozie, can we got back to your 'Loaded' post.
You said:-

Average number of spins each feature with retriggers (calculated):24.0

How can the average number of free-spins be 24?
To start with it can not re-trigger.
Therefore you can only chose 12, 16 or 24 - which averages 17.333 recurring.
The average multiplier would be x3.
Or if you calculate the value of each spin, average of 12x4, 16x3 & 24x2 = 48 'normal' spins (no multiplier).

Have you made an error, or am I missing something here?

 

[Zoozie]

Zoozie, can we got back to your 'Loaded' post.
You said:-


How can the average number of free-spins be 24?
To start with it can not re-trigger.
Therefore you can only chose 12, 16 or 24 - which averages 17.333 recurring.
The average multiplier would be x3.
Or if you calculate the value of each spin, average of 12x4, 16x3 & 24x2 = 48 'normal' spins (no multiplier).

Have you made an error, or am I missing something here?

If you try to load the slot "Loaded" in the slot-simulator you will get an explanation of this.

Payout is same for the 12*4,16*3,24*2. And average feature win is also the same. However I have to type one of the choices in as default.
(It does only matter for variance though)

I type "With retriggers always". But they are not allowed for Loaded. Therefore it is 24 spins average with the default 24 value.

 

[Zoozie]

Cool job, Kimss. I will make some analysis later. But as you can see from the data just by looking at them, they are very very uniform. The small variations does not look significant at all. I am now completely convinced they are uniform!

I will work in the progressive slots next.

 

[steinhaug]

Here is Thunderstruck on $4.5 wagering, $0.1 coinsize on 9x5 lines. I split the statistics in two, since I hit a really unlucky streak on the first one. After all the gameplay, almost 2000 spins went like 100% payout. First image, dry spell, is from start to the first big win, second is all 4026 spins + 25 features (430 freespins total).

I also noticed I forgot to post the Thunderstruck reels in this thread, here they are:

Thunderstruck

0 - Thor
1 - Hammer
2 - Hand
3 - Castle
4 - Lightning
5 - Horn
6 - A
7 - K
8 - Q
9 - J
10 - 10
11 - 9
12 - Feature, goats

Reel 1: 0,2,11,5,1,2,7,10,9,5,4,6,12,9,8,3,2,1,3,9,10,5,6,9,8,11,9,8,4,5
Reel 2: 0,11,12,4,2,1,11,9,5,6,7,9,11,4,5,3,9,10,3,9,2,4,3,6,9,4,11,7,8,9
Reel 3: 0,2,10,8,1,4,7,10,8,6,10,12,3,1,6,11,10,8,5,6,10,7,3,8,4,1,8,10,9,8
Reel 4: 0,4,9,7,11,6,5,1,2,7,8,7,11,10,9,3,7,4,5,11,7,3,12,6,2,1,5,6,10,11
Reel 5: 0,3,2,9,8,4,1,2,5,10,6,4,9,1,10,6,8,7,5,3,8,9,3,1,2,5,7,11,6,10,8,7,2,4,10,3,6,11,9,1,5,12,2,4

 

[Zoozie]

LotsALoot 5-Reel progressive slot cracked

Nice data. However the sample size from the freespins is a too small I think.

I have also been working hard on LotsAReels 5-Reel - the first progressive we have analyze . I think the general payout is a little low so maybe you can try check the reels on this one again when you have more time, Kimms?

The payout of LotsAReels 5-Reel depend on the jackpot size of course.
This can only be won on line 25, but for payout this is identical to given
each of the 5-wild wins on all 25-lines the same average value.

Here are the results:
Jackpot-size | payout%
5000$|90.8%
10000$|91.36%
20000$|92.76%
30000$|94.16%
40000$|95.57%
50000$|96.95%
60000$|98.37%
70000$|99.77%
71625$|100%
80000$|101.18%


As you can see the break-even point occurs when the jackpot is 71625$.
But I have can not remember ever to have seen the jackpot this high.

Gerilege: Maybe you can also try your program on it and confirm the results?

I really think the payout% sucks for this one. Unless of course you don't play it before some suckers have boosted the jackpot to about 40000$.

I have updated the slot-analyzer applet with this slot: Old / Expired Link

 

[steinhaug]

Nice data. However the sample size from the freespins is a too small I think.[/URL]

Nice work Zoozie, we are on a roll, I'll be sending the thunderstruck (since this is the most popular slot) into some 9999 autoplay modes during the next days, this will most likely get us more freespin data. Since it's supposedly true random, taking a chunk of 3000 spins here, and some 4000 tomorrow and splicing them together this shouldnt matter?

Another thing, I will most likely upgrade my stats script to generate some more statistics. Like, overall random is nice, but what about random when a good win lines up on reel 1,2,3... does reel 4 and 5 then behave random?

Theese are the things possible to analyze now, This is kinda fun, and timeconsuming, hehe.

I'll be checking out your slot analyzer now!
(Edit - removed the part where I dint see the info button, )

 

[Simmo!]

Nice work Zoozie, we are on a roll, I'll be sending the thunderstruck (since this is the most popular slot) into some 9999 autoplay modes during the next days

Don't forget to set Quickspin

 

[KasinoKing]

Don't forget to set Quickspin

Don't forget 'quick spin' doesn't work on Thunderstruck/Ladies/Break...

 

[steinhaug]

Don't forget 'quick spin' doesn't work on Thunderstruck/Ladies/Break...

And that's annoying! However, the autoplay also plays through freespins and keeps going after this, So just start it up and let it spin in the background.

 

[Simmo!]

Don't forget 'quick spin' doesn't work on Thunderstruck/Ladies/Break...

Er...it does here on Tstruck - I just tried it

 

[steinhaug]

Er...it does here on Tstruck - I just tried it

When I'm collecting the data I need to do it in the flash casino, and there the quickspin feature doesn't exist (atleast I can't see it). In the standalone it works perfectly, but then i would need to decompress TCP/IP packets, something I don't know.

 

[brianzz]

Also the WagerWorks Cleopatra would be interested if anyone want to crack it the old fashioned way. But I think you can see the reels quite easy on cleopatra.
Zoozie

I have the PAR sheets for that game, so if you can get the reel layouts it should be pretty easy to figure out, if they're using the original IGT program.

 

[steinhaug]

Also the WagerWorks Cleopatra would be interested if anyone want to crack it the old fashioned way. But I think you can see the reels quite easy on cleopatra.

I think mapping theese reels might be a problem, the XML feed from the server does not reveal the reel positions like MG does. Example of the a feed is like this:

<REELSTATE><REELS aSymbol0="s03" aSymbol1="rK" aSymbol2="s02"/><REELS aSymbol0="s05" aSymbol1="rJ" aSymbol2="rQ"/><REELS aSymbol0="rJ" aSymbol1="s08" aSymbol2="rQ"/><REELS aSymbol0="s07" aSymbol1="r10" aSymbol2="rK"/><REELS aSymbol0="s04" aSymbol1="r09" aSymbol2="s08"/></REELSTATE>

So we get the excact symbols for each spins, but no position. I also notice that one of the files loaded are this one:

Outdated URL (Invalid)

I havnt installed any SWF decompiler, however I doubt it will work since the reelposition is not served in the XML feed, meaning there is no need for any reels at all. The full reels will always be on the server at all times, you have your nifty animation and the spin stops on the symbols served in the XML feed. For some reason MG does both, but they don't need to. I'm almost starting to wonder if they want us to break the reels this way, since they have no need to serve the complete reelbands as they do now anyways.

Cracking Cleopatra has to be done the old way, so good luck to anyone who want that job, :/

 

[brianzz]

Most likely on that xml feed it gives symbol numbers and they probably go left to right, the first set of three are the first reel, second set of 3 are the 2nd reel and so on. The 02 and 03 symbols are probably the higher paying ones, J, 10, Q, K are pretty easy to figure out.

 

[steinhaug]

Most likely on that xml feed it gives symbol numbers and they probably go left to right, the first set of three are the first reel, second set of 3 are the 2nd reel and so on. The 02 and 03 symbols are probably the higher paying ones, J, 10, Q, K are pretty easy to figure out.

This is correct, the <REELSTATE> node has 5 children (5 reels). Each of the reels has 3 attributes, aSymbol0 aSymbol1 and aSymbol2 which is from top to bottom. Knowing the excact symbols is nice, but if we only had that reelposition mapping the reels would only take a few spins. Since we don't have this we need to use the pen and look at the screen. This is timeconsuming, and opens up for error since a reel might have 3 symbols identical 2 or more places.

Still nobody knows how to decode a TCP packet?

 

[Zoozie]

I have the PAR sheets for that game, so if you can get the reel layouts it should be pretty easy to figure out, if they're using the original IGT program.

Cracking Cleopatra has to be done the old way, so good luck to anyone who want that job, :/

Cracking it the old way takes 10 hours at least.

But Brianzz, maybe you can send me the sheets? It would still be interesting. And I can do a few spins and see if they seem to match the wagerworks version.

Zoozie

 

[KasinoKing]

Er...it does here on Tstruck - I just tried it

Really? That's very strange then.

For me it's NEVER worked on TS, LN, SB, & Tally Ho at ANY downloaded MG casino I've ever played, either on my laptop or PC. (And that's quite a few!)
Selecting 'Quick Spin' on these 4 makes no discernible difference to the speed at all.
It works fine on all the other slots...

 

[gerilege]

Gerilege: Maybe you can also try your program on it and confirm the results?

I will try to do that today.

I checked the payout table of 5 reel drive, so 500 was correct and your payout% was correct. Thanks a lot, I somehow made a typo in the paytable.

I am doing this now, but on the feature slots. I have a feeling theese are weighted aswell since I know certain reel positions just never happend. I will be collecting a few 1000 spins on several machines, and maby some of you people can program a little piece of software to calculate between the reel positions to see if its random or not? This would be a job for maby you and zoozie?

Thanks and ok, but as Zoozie said, the sample is quite uniform in case of the newest feature slots. Could you please collect a 1000 element sample on 5 reel drive on any other old 5 reel slot? Because there's an obvious weighting (on reel1 I guess one combinaition occurs 30-35% of the time...). And it would be extremely interesting to examine the payout% of a weighted slot...

 

[brianzz]

But Brianzz, maybe you can send me the sheets? It would still be interesting. And I can do a few spins and see if they seem to match the wagerworks version.

Zoozie

Yep, I'll have to do it from home, do PM's here allow attachments? It should follow the b/m game to the tee, it's a copyrighted game, I don't think wagerworks can change it, they just lease it from IGT.

 

[steinhaug]

Here is a larger spin amount on Thunderstruck $45 (max) wagering. I will we waiting some time to get a bunch of theese before I post next time.

Attached is the data and screenshot. Note the data has some more info now from my parsing:

reel positions|freespin(bool)|spin name|win amount|win lines

 

[Zoozie]

Maximum win combination "Loaded" when playing all 25-lines

This is the highest possible win at Loaded playing all 25 lines. Of course it has the 5 wilds win on one of the lines, but it is also interesting
that you can also hit five of the second highest paysymbols (girls) with *3 wild multiplier.
(W= wild symbol)

H H W C H
Y W Y W Y
W Y B Y W
Total win :10608
Scatter win:0
Line 1:180
Line 2:24
Line 3:0
Line 4:0
Line 5:7000
Line 6:0
Line 7:0
Line 8:0
Line 9:15
Line 10:5
Line 11:0
Line 12:0
Line 13:180
Line 14:240
Line 15:2400
Line 16:180
Line 17:0
Line 18:0
Line 19:180
Line 20:0
Line 21:24
Line 22:180
Line 23:0
Line 24:0
Line 25:0

 

[gerilege]

Microgaming?

I'm wondering whether Microgaming has anything to say to this topic. Weighted reels in online 5reel video slots are something uncommon, and I'm wondering why this thread doesn't get more attention.

Brian, if you have some time during the renovation, could you please ask somebody at MG about this issue?

 

[steinhaug]

I'm wondering whether Microgaming has anything to say to this topic. Weighted reels in online 5reel video slots are something uncommon, and I'm wondering why this thread doesn't get more attention.

Brian, if you have some time during the renovation, could you please ask somebody at MG about this issue?

I would think not, for them to go down to grass roots levels and talk to simple players as us would probably just look un-professional for them since they would be pounded with questions from us anyway. They would most likely need a team of lawyers to forulate their statement not to start raving fires between the players in here for some weak sentence or whatever. there are several camps in here, and most likely one or two camps would be triggered on something.

Let Brian have a chat with them, that sounds like a much better idea. Then he can report in his own words, and they would be free from charges,

 

[Zoozie]

I'm wondering whether Microgaming has anything to say to this topic. Weighted reels in online 5reel video slots are something uncommon, and I'm wondering why this thread doesn't get more attention.

Brian, if you have some time during the renovation, could you please ask somebody at MG about this issue?

It is also a mystery to me why this has not caused a major riot yet. Maybe slots people are not so aware or care about this. Gambling authorities like WizardOfOdds etc. does also not care about slots. If his BJ card was weighted I think it would be another matter...


I am working on Cleopatra now, the first non-MG slot. And I can already tell you now that it is not weighted and IGT knows the exact maths of 5-reel slots and can also calculate the effect of free spins. They seems to be ahead of many online software providers even though it is actually not that advanced math. I know this because I was mailed some intersting documents from IGT.

Maybe slot people do not know or care, but it is interesting that they really seem to like the non-weighted slots. When Thunderstruck came it was huge succes and people also like IGT slots (I do!).

 

[steinhaug]

It is also a mystery to me why this has not caused a major riot yet.

I would assume that this thread is brought to the coffetable up for discussion especially in MG-HQ, that doesn't mean that they will interact in this thread. It could just be that their system is fair, in that case this thread will infact strengthen their software since it's tested to the max. This would infact make everybody extremely happy I would think,

 

[gerilege]

Confirmed

The payout of LotsAReels 5-Reel depend on the jackpot size of course.
This can only be won on line 25, but for payout this is identical to given
each of the 5-wild wins on all 25-lines the same average value.

Here are the results:
Jackpot-size | payout%
5000$|90.8%
10000$|91.36%
20000$|92.76%
30000$|94.16%
40000$|95.57%
50000$|96.95%
60000$|98.37%
70000$|99.77%
71625$|100%
80000$|101.18%


As you can see the break-even point occurs when the jackpot is 71625$.
But I have can not remember ever to have seen the jackpot this high.

Gerilege: Maybe you can also try your program on it and confirm the results?

I can confirm the above payout% except for $5000 which is 90.65%, but that was only a typo. 90.8% is for $6000.
Base payout (i.e jackpot would be $1000) is 90.09%.

And that means that Lotsaloot is likely not weighted.

Updated analyzer is attached.

 

[steinhaug]

Here are some more spins, went for a smaller sample size this to get the overview.

• 5 Reel Drive
• Loaded
• Oriental Fortune
• Reel Strike

Dont mind the first line on 5 reel drive, the one with rp:1, this is due to an empty line in the datafile.

 

[aka23]

SPECTACULAR SLOT REELS ARE VOID!

After doing some more studying on this there is something strange going on on theese reels. Seems that there are different layouts for each reel with the same symbols. One needs to map different symbols for each reel, therefore I void this setup. If there is an admin in here please delete the spectacular mapping from my previous post.

For Spectacular, I consistently get results matching your original post with the missing symbol 14 being empty. I am using HTTPAnalyzer, rather than HTTPWatch. I recall that HTTPWatch requires upgrading to the professional version (pay version) to view content on most web sites, but I am not certain about that.

 

[Zoozie]

I have a question about the B&M version of Enchanted Unicorn.

On the WagerWorks version the rules say retriggers only allowed up to a total
of 180 free spins. But I can not find this wierd rule in the B&M version papers I have on " Enchanted Unicorn". Anyone here that has played it live and can remember seeing this wierd rule?

For payout% this rule is negligible though.

Zoozie

 

[SlotsWizard]

I have a question about the B&M version of Enchanted Unicorn.

On the WagerWorks version the rules say retriggers only allowed up to a total
of 180 free spins. But I can not find this wierd rule in the B&M version papers I have on " Enchanted Unicorn". Anyone here that has played it live and can remember seeing this wierd rule?

For payout% this rule is negligible though.

Zoozie

I've played that game at a couple of B&Ms - but I didn't even know that it had a free spins feature! I thought its only feature was where you get the treasure chest on reels 1 and 5, which is similar to Chain Mail's bonus round. How on earth do you get the free spins? Obviously it must be pretty difficult because I played that game quite a bit and never got them once!

Anyway.... that's not why I came to this thread. I was actually going to put my thoughts in about the weighting of the 5-line 5-reel slots. I don't really see anything wrong with having 1 symbol on each reel, weighted, for this particular kind of game (more on that in a moment). Three things:

1. They were created back in the day, so they are probably similar to 3-reelers which of course use weighting. Plus, I don't think many people play these games much anyway.

2. There's no difference between having symbol A weighted to appear at a 5:1 ratio compared to symbol B, versus having an unweighted reel strip with five symbol A's and one symbol B.

3. The reason why this can only work for this kind of game is because there are no scatters. I think that's the key. Weighting wouldn't work if there were scatter symbols, because they appear 3 times as often as the payline symbols (you could weight them but it wouldn't be as effective as a non-scatter game).

So, that's my theory... I'm not sure if it's correct, it's just a hunch.

 

[Zoozie]

I've played that game at a couple of B&Ms - but I didn't even know that it had a free spins feature! I thought its only feature was where you get the treasure chest on reels 1 and 5, which is similar to Chain Mail's bonus round. How on earth do you get the free spins? Obviously it must be pretty difficult because I played that game quite a bit and never got them once!

1. They were created back in the day, so they are probably similar to 3-reelers which of course use weighting. Plus, I don't think many people play these games much anyway.

2. There's no difference between having symbol A weighted to appear at a 5:1 ratio compared to symbol B, versus having an unweighted reel strip with five symbol A's and one symbol B.

3. The reason why this can only work for this kind of game is because there are no scatters. I think that's the key. Weighting wouldn't work if there were scatter symbols, because they appear 3 times as often as the payline symbols (you could weight them but it wouldn't be as effective as a non-scatter game).

So, that's my theory... I'm not sure if it's correct, it's just a hunch.

Sorry, my mistake. I was talking about "Cleopatra"! But I wrote "Enchanted Unicorn by mistake"

2. Yes, you this is correct.

3. "Five Reel Drive" have scatters and is still weighted, so you are a little wrong here.

 

[brianzz]

Bonus games
Three or more Sphinx symbols in any position on any reel initiate the Cleopatra Free Spin Bonus. The game automatically plays 15 free spins at triple the pays based on the original wager. 3 or more scatter Sphinx symbols during the bonus game re-triggers the bonus and you are awarded an additional 15 free spins. The bonus ends when the free spin meter reaches 0 or 999 free bonus spins have been played. You are then shown the total win for the bonus, credits added to the credit meter, taken back to the base game and any line and scatter pays from the initiating play are then added to the credit meter.This bonus feature accounts for up to 9% of the total return for this game.

 

[Mousey]

First off, most of this is all waaay over my head. :notworthy However, I do greatly appreciate the hard work, particularly Zoozie and kimss, and your sharing all this info with the forum. Payout percentages per slot is highly interesting and appreciated, and is much more info than we receive from the casinos. Perhaps when all is said and done, a list of slots (and clones) w/payout percentages could be shared?

And the fact that 5 reelers are weighted, while it doesn't surprise me, doesn't sit well with me as a player.

And again, thank you all.

 

[Zoozie]

Bonus games
Three or more Sphinx symbols in any position on any reel initiate the Cleopatra Free Spin Bonus. The game automatically plays 15 free spins at triple the pays based on the original wager. 3 or more scatter Sphinx symbols during the bonus game re-triggers the bonus and you are awarded an additional 15 free spins. The bonus ends when the free spin meter reaches 0 or 999 free bonus spins have been played. You are then shown the total win for the bonus, credits added to the credit meter, taken back to the base game and any line and scatter pays from the initiating play are then added to the credit meter.This bonus feature accounts for up to 9% of the total return for this game.

Thank you. Where do you have this information from? But if it is true we know that the IGT games are not identical in the B&M and online version. What a shame. I am still examing the reel on Cleopatra. Will return later.

When I played 5-reel freespin in Australia and LV I never read about this 'max number of free spins' allowed though I did read the rules. It does not mean much because it almost never happens, but it is still a wierd rule.

 

[brianzz]

I got most of my info from IGT long ago

 

[SlotsWizard]

Thank you Zoozie! I guess my theory was just that, a theory.

I haven't checked, but is "What a Hoot" weighted as well? I like that game, and it has scatters too. I have a hunch that it's weighted. It seems like they only weighted the non-feature slots?

I wonder if the reason for that is because it was faster to develop by weighting the symbols instead of making a long, unweighted reel strip?

 

[Rusty]

What a fantastic thread, how did I miss it?
This maybe the most important thread ever posted here.

The reason that reel weighting is unacceptable is because there is absolutely no way of knowing the true % payout without knowing exactly how the reels are weighted.

Also this weighting could be live and dynamic.
Infact that is one good reason to weight a 5 reel slot.

It is really NOT difficult to design a slot where the reels are NOT weighted and have it well balanced.

If there is 1 Wild symbol on a 30 symbol reel I want it to have a 1 in 30 chance of landing on line 1.
That is a fair game.

The only way the payout % of a slot should be determined is through the paytable (adjusted to reflect the probability of each win).

Again, fantastic informative thread and special thanks to the main contributors.
I will read on with interest.

 

[SlotsWizard]

The only way the payout % of a slot should be determined is through the paytable

I do agree with you there - it should operate like video poker. How can they expect us to hack, reverse-engineer, or analyze a game if they don't provide us with everything we need to be able to do so accurately?

From an analysis standpoint, it would be much better to have an unweighted reel strip versus a weighted one (assuming the weights are unknown).

And... I shouldn't really have said "us" since I personally haven't been anything more than an observer in this thread ... so by "us" I mean Zoozie, kimss, aka23, brianzz and gerilege.

 

[Zoozie]

I haven't checked, but is "What a Hoot" weighted as well? I like that game, and it has scatters too. I have a hunch that it's weighted. It seems like they only weighted the non-feature slots?

It is weighted as well, and so are: Gophers Gold ,Crazy Chameleons ,Oriental Fortune

so by "us" I mean Zoozie, kimss and aka23.

Brianzz and gerilege has been helping as well.

 

[gerilege]

Need more data for 5reeldrive

Here are some more spins, went for a smaller sample size this to get the overview.

Dont mind the first line on 5 reel drive, the one with rp:1, this is due to an empty line in the datafile.

I extrapolated the weighted results, but the overall payout is very sensitive to the scatter payout and the weights around scatters.

First of all I assumed (learned the hard way) that the real positions you posted are for the middle line. (Either top or bottom line would produce too high scatter payout). But I need more exact data near the scatter symbols. For the line winnings it doesn't really matter. But the below results are not accurate regarding scatter wins because of the sample size:

Analyzing weighted 5 reel drive:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win as multiples of total bet per spin: 186200.99473494824
Scatter win: 66046.05549368466
Payout ratio: 1.0137243209419724

I don't think that the line wins will change a lot, but the scatter wins will.

Just to illustrate how does weighting influence the payout, I reduced the probability of a scatter at 3rd row on reel1 (i.e. only one position of the three possible on only one reel of the fice were reduced from ~10 to ~5 percent!!!) to the half of what you gave, and:

Analyzing 5 reel drive:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win as multiples of total bet per spin: 185607.6903637479
Scatter win: 51896.985657074656
Payout ratio: 0.9544780254180434

 

[gerilege]

What comes next?

And until I'm waiting for the bigger sample for 5reeldrive, I will do a weighted slot without scatters, likely a 5liner like Gopher's Gold. A smaller sample should be enough here.

 

[steinhaug]

First of all I assumed (learned the hard way) that the real positions you posted are for the middle line. (Either top or bottom line would produce too high scatter payout). But I need more exact data near the scatter symbols.

The reelpositions are the accual position on the reels, and for all three symbols not the middle symbol. A zero (0) would mean that the reel is in its first possition showing the three first symbols from the top. First number is reel 1 from top to bottom, next is second reel and lastly the third number is the final reel.

I also have the data for the symbols on each reel, however this data is meaningsless and why I dropped it in the text file. I can regenerate the text files with more data if someone would have interest in this. I can also set a flash casino to do 10.000 spins, however the data from my spins clearly shows that the reels are weighted.

 

[gerilege]

Breaking news

First of all I assumed (learned the hard way) that the real positions you posted are for the middle line.
...
Analyzing weighted 5 reel drive:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win as multiples of total bet per spin: 186200.99473494824
Scatter win: 66046.05549368466
Payout ratio: 1.0137243209419724

I guess I have it now. After experiencing problems with the scatter payout I realized that if the reels are weighted, winlines DO matter. You can't simplify the analysis to one winline any more. I try to explain it. Basically it's because the symbols are not equally likely on different positions on a reel. With other words the fact that a symbol has double weighting on reel1 at middle position means that the symbol below it will have double probability of landing on bottom position on reel1. And 5reel drive has only one payline starting from the middle position. So analyzing different individual winlines will lead to different payout, and you have to analyze all paylines.

Take the following imaginary reel segment for the first reel, x means the weighting, so if there's 12 symbols on a reel, 2x means 2/12 chance, 1x means 1/12 chance.

2x 0.2x 1x 0.1x 1x
Pie, Dice, Wheel, Scatter, Yellow truck

If that weighting is for the middle reel, than the wheel will be in middle position with 1/12 chance, at bottom position with 0.2*(1/12) chance, and at top position with 0.1*(1/12) chance. But please note that middle position on reel 1 is crossed by only one payline, but top and bottom positions are crossed by 4 paylines each. So if you only measure the middle straight payline with that weighting, you will get false results, because you calculate the wheel on reel1 on a winline with 1/12 (=0.0833) probability. In fact it is 1/12 probability on the middle straight winline, 4*(0.2)/12 probability on the bottom, and similarly 4*(0.1)/12 on the top. That means that the real probability for the Wheel being on first reel on a winline is:

(1/12 + 0.8/12 + 0.4/12)/9 ~= 0.02 instead of the above 0.0833.

I hope it was clear. After finding that out, I went back to a version of my program with all winlines, set the winlunes up for middle position weighting, and the results are much accurate I guess:


Number of spins: 248832
Total line win: 1541986.3517717584
Scatter win: 66046.05549368466
Total win as multiplies of total bet: 171331.81686352871
Payout ratio: 0.9539684299335028

But it would be still interesting to see a larger sample.

The attached file has two versions of the calculation, one with all winlines included (method analyze1), and another with only a single winline (method analyze). Furthermore I added the weights from kimss (weightreel), and a uniform weighting (weightreel1). You can easily switch between the reel weightings by exchanging their names. It's funny to see that the two methods give the same result in case of uniform reels, but differ in case of weighted reels.