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Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion

Any post that does nothing but slag off forum members and say how shit things are here is unwelcome. Please cease and desist.
I don't think you're an idiot, but I don't like that you keep posting things, pretty much nightly, that either aren't true or that you can't back with with facts at all. I have asked you multiple questions on loads of things you have posted, and I honestly don't think you have replied to a single one. I could actually argue for some of the posts you have made better than you have, and I've barely agreed with any of them.

I don't care if someone has different views than me, I am happy to discuss opinions, I've changed my mind about quite a bit since January, so am definitely open to being wrong, but when you just post 'blah blah blah' then refuse to back it up at all, then theres no point crying when people challenge your opinion.

Your posts are regularly inaccurate but instead of discussing them or saying, oh shit, yeah that makes no sense, you just go forward posting more rubbish you have read on facebook.

I'm going to hazard a guess here, but I bet you haven't lost anyone to this virus? I will also bet your views would be different if you had.
To be fair this guy has posted opposite views to most of you who dominate these threads. He has made his views very clearly and has never responded with personal attacks as far as I have read.
Not everyone has the benefit of time to research data or counter arguments and only the stupid can now claim that the readily available is so very bias and sensored
Borgies infantile personal "passive aggressive"response is so typical of what is left in this forum. It is left with just mostly like minded posters and maybe why so many people have abandoned posting in CM?
Is there a reason why other none casino related threads are dominated by one side of the discussion yet the balance of power seems so slim in America for example?
How many Americans living there contribute to threads that concern their Country post in those threads?


What is left in CM is dominated by so few yet it is killing the site due to bullying folk from expressing an opinion that they do not agree with.
 
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So where is Sweden now?
We were on top when i left this thread, but i feel things may have changed.


yy.webp
 
Thats not what you said though. Can you give the figures for all those things you've mentioned for Norway so we can see how bad things are there. I had a quick google and couldn't find any, but you obviously have them to hand?

Sweden have 20 times the deaths, with twice the population. So I suppose if you think letting a lot more people die is doing it the right way, then you are right.

Going on million population figures

Sweden deaths 654 cases 23344
Norway deaths 58 cases 6301
The cases per million is actually lower in the UK than Sweden, being 23145

But yeah, Sweden are doing great.

So uk = lockdown, norway = lockdown, how would you explain the different results achieved, [also how long was norway's lockdown, and are they using it now?]

edit: just seeking an opinion, casual conversation, not setting homework or requesting a scientific paper to be written :cool:
 
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To be fair this guy has posted opposite views to most of you who dominate these threads. He has made his views very clearly and has never responded with personal attacks as far as I have read.
Not everyone has the benefit of time to research data or counter arguments and only the stupid can now claim that the readily available is so very bias and sensored
Borgies infantile personal "passive aggressive"response is so typical of what is left in this forum is left with just mostly like minded posters and maybe why so many people have abandoned posting in CM?
Is there a reason why other none casino related threads are dominated by one side of the discussion yet the balance of power seems so slim?

What is left in CM is dominated by so few yet it is killing the site due to bullying folk from expressing an opinion that they do not agree with

Most of what he's posted has been stuff he's lifted from Facebook and/or Twitter where people make claims that then get shared, but when the claims are examined, are found to be false.
He has more than once claimed Sweden took the right approach in not having a lockdown as their figures showed that to be the case. The fact is, they don't. When you compare them to a similar country that did have a lockdown, ie Norway, they are MUCH worse. 10 times worse in fact.
I've repeatedly asked how he thinks Sweden have done so much better when they have worse figures, to be completely ignored. It's not a case of having time to research arguments or suchlike, if you post something as fact, then surely you have already looked into it, or why post it as though you have?

If he posts something I don't agree with then I will say so and always try to back up my argument with facts or reasons why I disagree. I have called him a troll a couple of times recently, as thats what he was doing. Posting something he knew others would disagree with, then refusing to engage or say why, when asked. That is literally what a troll does.

I am also fully aware that lockdowns can cause other effects, suicides, job losses etc, but those effects can't be counted yet, so no one can say they will be worse, or better, than what would have happened if we didn't have a lockdown. Just like I wouldn't try to argue that we need lockdowns as the cost to the country in the future will be massive due to the crippling after effects of this virus, damage to lungs etc, as we don't actually know how bad it will be.
 
To be fair this guy has posted opposite views to most of you who dominate these threads. He has made his views very clearly and has never responded with personal attacks as far as I have read.
Not everyone has the benefit of time to research data or counter arguments and only the stupid can now claim that the readily available is so very bias and sensored
Borgies infantile personal "passive aggressive"response is so typical of what is left in this forum. It is left with just mostly like minded posters and maybe why so many people have abandoned posting in CM?
Is there a reason why other none casino related threads are dominated by one side of the discussion yet the balance of power seems so slim in America for example?
How many Americans living there contribute to threads that concern their Country post in those threads?


What is left in CM is dominated by so few yet it is killing the site due to bullying folk from expressing an opinion that they do not agree with.
Yet I have Max telling me that I treat the site as if it is my own.
This is just one forum among countless others.

This particular poster, just posts fake facts, they are not just his view, they repetitive nonsense.

If someone is posting comments and links as fact, they damn well should take the time to do some research.

It's lazy and dangerous.
 
Most of what he's posted has been stuff he's lifted from Facebook and/or Twitter where people make claims that then get shared, but when the claims are examined, are found to be false.
He has more than once claimed Sweden took the right approach in not having a lockdown as their figures showed that to be the case. The fact is, they don't. When you compare them to a similar country that did have a lockdown, ie Norway, they are MUCH worse. 10 times worse in fact.
I've repeatedly asked how he thinks Sweden have done so much better when they have worse figures, to be completely ignored. It's not a case of having time to research arguments or suchlike, if you post something as fact, then surely you have already looked into it, or why post it as though you have?

If he posts something I don't agree with then I will say so and always try to back up my argument with facts or reasons why I disagree. I have called him a troll a couple of times recently, as thats what he was doing. Posting something he knew others would disagree with, then refusing to engage or say why, when asked. That is literally what a troll does.

I am also fully aware that lockdowns can cause other effects, suicides, job losses etc, but those effects can't be counted yet, so no one can say they will be worse, or better, than what would have happened if we didn't have a lockdown. Just like I wouldn't try to argue that we need lockdowns as the cost to the country in the future will be massive due to the crippling after effects of this virus, damage to lungs etc, as we don't actually know how bad it will be.
Forgive me but I will reply tomorrow because I am up at 530 in the morning for the 14th time in a row for work and I am off to bed. I will reply mate
 
So uk = lockdown, norway = lockdown, how would you explain the different results achieved, [also how long was norway's lockdown, and are they using it now?]

edit: just seeking an opinion, casual conversation, not setting homework or requesting a scientific paper :p
The way the country is. Norway has almost half the population of London. London is 1500 sq km, Norway is 385000 sq km. Sweden is 450000 sq km & has roughly the same population as London. Thats why you can't compare the UK with Sweden or Norway as the population density is so different.
You have to compare like with like, Norway and Sweden are similar enough to make comparisons, and why I don't think Sweden's approach was better than the UK's. As I said earlier, cases per million are actually worse in Sweden than in the UK, so I honestly don't know why people keep saying their 'no lockdown' method was better.

I think Norways lockdown was shorter than ours, but started earlier, and included quarantining people coming into the country, something I think we should have done. They have local lockdowns in place at the moment I believe, but am happy to be corrected :)
 
Just to say, I've posted for months on all the same issues, the swedish model, collateral damage etc.. at times at length, generally speaking the people who favour the lockdown idea/theory just ignore many of the points, graphs and stats, or worse become personal and cantankerous

There are plenty of top scientists endorsing the swedish approach/barrington declaration, the harsh reality is the route we've gone down is going to lead to many premature deaths from other things, quality of life and shorter lives from poverty effects [it is crazy, for example, that cancer tests and treatments have been posponed and delayed]

Most probably to repay the govt debt there will be more future cutbacks to services which help provide quality of life to elderly/vulnerable. [when the govt cut funding to the county councils etc.., and they in turn cut OAP services yet still waste money elsewhere]

AFAIK viruses don't do waves unless they have mutated, it has no where to retreat and reform to mount another attack like an army. It doesn't get back onto the plane to china and then return with reinforcements, it is whatever that was originally circulating with transmission spikes, like when that food factory came down with it a while back. We do have seasonal flu but that is not waves.
 
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The way the country is. Norway has almost half the population of London. London is 1500 sq km, Norway is 385000 sq km. Sweden is 450000 sq km & has roughly the same population as London. Thats why you can't compare the UK with Sweden or Norway as the population density is so different.
You have to compare like with like, Norway and Sweden are similar enough to make comparisons, and why I don't think Sweden's approach was better than the UK's. As I said earlier, cases per million are actually worse in Sweden than in the UK, so I honestly don't know why people keep saying their 'no lockdown' method was better.

I think Norways lockdown was shorter than ours, but started earlier, and included quarantining people coming into the country, something I think we should have done. They have local lockdowns in place at the moment I believe, but am happy to be corrected :)

So for you population density is the key factor to cases and deaths? [in terms of norway and uk achieving different results from lockdown]
 
Just to say, I've posted for months on all the same issues, the swedish model, collateral damage etc.. at times at length, generally speaking the people who favour the lockdown idea/theory just ignore many of the points, graphs and stats, or worse become personal and cantankerous

I honestly hope I haven't came across like that, I try to look at the whole picture then make my mind up from that.

There are plenty of top scientists endorsing the swedish approach/barrington declaration, the harsh reality is the route we've gone down is going to lead to many premature deaths from other things, quality of life and shorter lives from poverty effects

and many who don't endorse it. Time will tell which was correct.

Most probably to repay the govt debt there will be more future cutbacks to services which help provide quality of life to elderly/vulnerable. when the govt cut funding to the county councils etc.., and they in turn cut OAP services yet still waste money elsewhere

That happened before the virus. I think the bulk of it will be from increased taxes. I don't like a lot of what this government have done, especially handing multi billion £ contracts to shell companies with no assets owned by mates of MP's.

AFAIK viruses don't do waves unless they have mutated, it has no where to retreat and reform to mount another attack like an army. It doesn't get back onto the plane to china and then return with reinforcements, it is whatever that was originally circulating with transmission spikes, like when that food factory came down with it a while back. We do have seasonal flu but that is not waves.

I think everyone knew there would be a second wave/spike after the lockdown was relaxed, back in June/July I remember reading many people predicted a second lockdown in November, and a third end of Jan/start of Feb.

So for you population density is the key factor to cases and deaths? [in terms of norway and uk achieving different results from lockdown]

I think population density plays a large part. Obviously if a million people a day use the tube in London the virus will spread quicker than if 5 people use a bus in rural Norway. People in Northumberland are furious at the moment as they are in tier 3, and a lot of the area is made up by small villages who haven't had a single case, but their figures look bad as they come under hospital trusts that cover badly hit, highly populated areas, like Newcastle.
 
As I've said before, and can only reiterate, I enjoyy your posts @mack341 - they are always thought out and well-written.
But I hope you lean into them with research and follow-ups.
Everyone learns by dissenting opinions; they just need credibility to balance them out :)
 
Just to say, I've posted for months on all the same issues, the swedish model, collateral damage etc.. at times at length, generally speaking the people who favour the lockdown idea/theory just ignore many of the points, graphs and stats, or worse become personal and cantankerous

There are plenty of top scientists endorsing the swedish approach/barrington declaration, the harsh reality is the route we've gone down is going to lead to many premature deaths from other things, quality of life and shorter lives from poverty effects [it is crazy, for example, that cancer tests and treatments have been posponed and delayed]

Most probably to repay the govt debt there will be more future cutbacks to services which help provide quality of life to elderly/vulnerable. [when the govt cut funding to the county councils etc.., and they in turn cut OAP services yet still waste money elsewhere]

AFAIK viruses don't do waves unless they have mutated, it has no where to retreat and reform to mount another attack like an army. It doesn't get back onto the plane to china and then return with reinforcements, it is whatever that was originally circulating with transmission spikes, like when that food factory came down with it a while back. We do have seasonal flu but that is not waves.

Thing is Mack, whilst i don't agree with some of your points/posts, i do read and respect them as you have obviously researched and formed your own opinion and are very much open to debate.

It's the masses on FB that just share fake news and believe it without so much of a thought which get me, which leads to the poster on here who just puts fake bullet points constantly, yet will not address a single one.
 
I appreciate the compliments, don't really want to get drawn into the argy bargy side of things [have enough of that as it is!] but I feel Dealerwins is speaking from a strong sense that there is something seriously wrong happening here, rather than being swayed by posts on facebook. He may not want to spend hours and hours trying to convince others who haven't changed their mind so far, you have to be allowed just to post an opinion. If I stop writing longer posts, it's likely what I will do.

And at some point I will have to post a lot less, everything is very polarised these days and that is wearing; I was spending a fair bit of time reading posts on twitter about covid/lockdown etc.., [mainly from scientists and docs, journalists etc..] my twitter covid bookmark currently runs to about 90 items :eek2:... so had to recently open 'covid lockdown 2' as a new blinking folder of bookmarks!

Obviously this is the biggest society event/crisis in my lifetime, so feel it warrants the time reading up about it, but at the end of the day, the govt and its science advisers have probably already decided how they are going to navigate this...up and down restrictions until enough vaccinations take place.

I hold out a slim chance this govt only has benevolent intentions, and solely acting only out of concern for the vulnerable and the elderly, and things like the decision to cancel nhs hospital treatments and services [to prioritise hospitals for covid], returning half recovered covid patients to care homes, were the result of bungling and not from a lack of concern.

If the UK comes out, at the end of it, better in many areas of life then maybe I could say I was wrong, but there will still have been many real sacrifices along the way from this uk lockdown approach. [edit: just to add the role the media are playing /have played in raising and promoting fear and the all consuming focus, is also a big part and taking a huge toll pyschologically on the public]
 
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What the hell, wrong place.
I promise im not drunk.

To get back on kind of topic.
You know i love you Mack, even if i dont say it enough.
In a manly way of course, like how a viking loves a fellow viking.


bgf.webp
*

New years resolution, no politics 2021.
2021 is going to be all sunshine and rainbows.

*Dont be fooled by the ugly beardless viking in the picture above.
I look more like this hunk of a viking.
bgf.webp
 
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Nice hit on the 7's, I think low rolling is more fun in swedish money, it looks like nearly £1,900! ... I worked that out as a £215 win on 9p stake roughly 2400x ?
Bet was 1sek, so it was 1891x which is about £3.50 when converted to queen currency. (about £166)
Lowrolling is the only way i enjoy playing slots.
When i start getting close to £1/spin, im not having fun anymore,i just sit there thinking about how quick the money drains away.
I used to play like that. Get a hit and then immediately up the stakes and chase next hit.
Which 99% of the time ended in a bust.
Id rather keep spinning at 10-20p now even after a good hit like the one i just got.
No stress that way. =)
 
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I mean, they call it a "strategy" but what i really think happened is that they had a meeting to decide who would lead the corona task force, and nobody was willing to be responsible for making decisions.
That went on for a couple of months, until other countries started noticing us doing nothing.
Thats when it became a strategy.
 
I appreciate the compliments, don't really want to get drawn into the argy bargy side of things [have enough of that as it is!] but I feel Dealerwins is speaking from a strong sense that there is something seriously wrong happening here, rather than being swayed by posts on facebook. He may not want to spend hours and hours trying to convince others who haven't changed their mind so far, you have to be allowed just to post an opinion. If I stop writing longer posts, it's likely what I will do.

I disagree, it got to the point where I could guess what he was going to post due to what I had seen circulating on social media that day. Look at what sufferinsilence has just posted, its the complete opposite of what dealerwins has been saying about Sweden. If he has the time to find links from obscure sources (as some were) then surely he was seeing the other side too, it was 2-3 months ago the stories about Sweden start circulating on social media, saying how great it had worked for them, yet even then you could see the figures weren't that great if you looked into them in any detail. They certainly weren't the worst, but they weren't as good as people were making out.

If he has the time to go onto worldometer and check Sweden's stats, then I'm sure he has the 3-4 seconds to change the country and check out other figures and to realise they aren't actually that great. He said 'it's time to talk about' then refuses to talk about it as soon as anything that opposes whatever he has posted is shown. How is that not trolling?

From the Bloomberg article: In a recent OECD study, Sweden consistently ranked among the hardest hit nations in Europe, as measured by relative Covid mortality and infection rates. It was also the slowest at containing transmission.

Doesn't really sound as though the world fucked up and Sweden got it right. Why isn't he talking about China, who have a much greater population density than we do and a much larger population, who are reporting around 20 new cases a day, much lower than Sweden and the UK, but then China had a really harsh lockdown, so doesn't fit his narrative. Sweden have also had around 50% more deaths than china, despite China having 1.4 billion people living there, as opposed to 10 million in Sweden.

The difference between you (and pretty much everyone else who posts the lockdown was the wrong strategy) is you will take the time to say why you think that way and come back and respond to points people have made. I might not agree with you completely, but thats what a discussion forum is about, not necessarily changing people's minds, but discussing different views and why people think that way. Just because I disagree with someone it doesn't mean I don't respect their opinion. However, if they just post random links saying they mean one thing when it isn't true, then refuse to discuss it, then I do lose respect for them.

If lockdowns were right or wrong is unlikely to be something anyone can say for certain for years to come. What we can say now is, Sweden's attempts to control the virus haven't worked better than some other countries, especially those similar to them. They have worked better than some, but they certainly aren't world beaters at controlling things, which is what dealerwins was pushing.
 
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I disagree, it got to the point where I could guess what he was going to post due to what I had seen circulating on social media that day. Look at what sufferinsilence has just posted, its the complete opposite of what dealerwins has been saying about Sweden. If he has the time to find links from obscure sources (as some were) then surely he was seeing the other side too, it was 2-3 months ago the stories about Sweden start circulating on social media, saying how great it had worked for them, yet even then you could see the figures weren't that great if you looked into them in any detail. They certainly weren't the worst, but they weren't as good as people were making out.

If he has the time to go onto worldometer and check Sweden's stats, then I'm sure he has the 3-4 seconds to change the country and check out other figures and to realise they aren't actually that great. He said 'it's time to talk about' then refuses to talk about it as soon as anything that opposes whatever he has posted is shown. How is that not trolling?

From the Bloomberg article: In a recent OECD study, Sweden consistently ranked among the hardest hit nations in Europe, as measured by relative Covid mortality and infection rates. It was also the slowest at containing transmission.

Doesn't really sound as though the world fucked up and Sweden got it right. Why isn't he talking about China, who have a much greater population density than we do and a much larger population, who are reporting around 20 new cases a day, much lower than Sweden and the UK, but then China had a really harsh lockdown, so doesn't fit his narrative. Sweden have also had around 50% more deaths than china, despite China having 1.4 billion people living there, as opposed to 10 million in Sweden.

The difference between you (and pretty much everyone else who posts the lockdown was the wrong strategy) is you will take the time to say why you think that way and come back and respond to points people have made. I might not agree with you completely, but thats what a discussion forum is about, not necessarily changing people's minds, but discussing different views and why people think that way. Just because I disagree with someone it doesn't mean I don't respect their opinion. However, if they just post random links saying they mean one thing when it isn't true, then refuse to discuss it, then I do lose respect for them.

If lockdowns were right or wrong is unlikely to be something anyone can say for certain for years to come. What we can say now is, Sweden's attempts to control the virus haven't worked better than some other countries, especially those similar to them. They have worked better than some, but they certainly aren't world beaters at controlling things, which is what dealerwins was pushing.

Yes china is a strange one, japan is another, a country I brought up a while back, they've probably had the best results overall with no harsh lockdowns. I don't think the sweden situation can be determined just yet, they've got more options of measures they can introduce and still be far more normal than the uk. And I saw an article earlier that stated their current death rate was still lower then germany's.

Sufferinsilence also mentioned there is maybe a covid mutation from spain that has caused all these rising cases and deaths in europe, perhaps that reached sweden as well?

There is a lot of censorship on twitter, facebook and youtube regarding covid matters, [including quite highly qualified scientists being censored] surely can't be a situation here where you can't post a dissenting opinion from the majority held one, unless and only if you are willing to make further follow up posts and enter into, let's be honest, hostile and lengthy discussions.

Atm it's only a few of us offering a dissenting opinion, maybe that offends people, it's the life and death issues, I think dealer knows when the financial damage hits, thousands of people will be left high and dry, [it's happening now] no one should be rounded on for stating they think there is or was a better approach, the swedish officials certainly felt that way [anders tegnell and his predecessor] and I highly doubt they are people without compassion. whereas neil ferguson and hancock I wouldn't be so certain.
 
Yes china is a strange one, japan is another, a country I brought up a while back, they've probably had the best results overall with no harsh lockdowns. I don't think the sweden situation can be determined just yet, they've got more options of measures they can introduce and still be far more normal than the uk. And I saw an article earlier that stated their current death rate was still lower then germany's.

Sufferinsilence also mentioned there is maybe a covid mutation from spain that has caused all these rising cases and deaths in europe, perhaps that reached sweden as well?

There is a lot of censorship on twitter, facebook and youtube regarding covid matters, [including quite highly qualified scientists being censored] surely can't be a situation here where you can't post a dissenting opinion from the majority held one, unless and only if you are willing to make further follow up posts and enter into, let's be honest, hostile and lengthy discussions.

Atm it's only a few of us offering a dissenting opinion, maybe that offends people, it's the life and death issues, I think dealer knows when the financial damage hits, thousands of people will be left high and dry, [it's happening now] no one should be rounded on for stating they think there is or was a better approach, the swedish officials certainly felt that way [anders tegnell and his predecessor] and I highly doubt they are people without compassion. whereas neil ferguson and hancock I wouldn't be so certain.

It's not deadlier per se, it's just noted that the mutation of the virus that originated amongst Spanish farmers has rapidly spread through Europe and especially the UK after the summer holidays.

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It's not deadlier per se, it's just noted that the mutation of the virus that originated amongst Spanish farmers has rapidly spread through Europe and especially the UK after the summer holidays.

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That would make sense in terms of wiping out some of the gains from immunity in the countries, I remember reading early on, the reason why a vaccine has never been developed successfully for any of the coronavirus family of viruses [for humans not certain about animals] is the fact they tend to mutate and change a lot.

Maybe that's why these new vaccines are focusing on the spike protein aspect, as afaik that doesn't seem to change as the method by which they lock onto and infect our cells. [Corona means crown or something]
 
Yes china is a strange one, japan is another, a country I brought up a while back, they've probably had the best results overall with no harsh lockdowns. I don't think the sweden situation can be determined just yet, they've got more options of measures they can introduce and still be far more normal than the uk. And I saw an article earlier that stated their current death rate was still lower then germany's.

You also have to bear in mind, China quite possibly aren't being totally truthful with their figures, although I doubt they are under estimating them to the extent that would take them from one of the best coping countries in the world to one of the worst.
I don't know what it's like around you, but certainly up here, the lockdown hasn't done anything, if anything places are busier. They may as well have just closed the pubs than made a full lockdown. The shops that are left open are busier than they were during the last one, the roads are busier than normal, beaches and parks are busier than they usually are on a hot summers day, and social distancing seems non existent most the time.

Sufferinsilence also mentioned there is maybe a covid mutation from spain that has caused all these rising cases and deaths in europe, perhaps that reached sweden as well?

There is a lot of censorship on twitter, facebook and youtube regarding covid matters, [including quite highly qualified scientists being censored] surely can't be a situation here where you can't post a dissenting opinion from the majority held one, unless and only if you are willing to make further follow up posts and enter into, let's be honest, hostile and lengthy discussions.

What annoys me is when things are posted as fact, not so much on here, but on social media with links to scientific reports to back up the claims, which, lets be honest, most people won't understand. They then start spreading whatever has been posted as fact, people believe them and ends up with no one having any idea what they can/can't do, what is/isn't true. If I started posting as fact 'don't take the vaccine as the government are going to embed microchips into your blood' and refused to discuss it, just kept reposting it, would you think that was acceptable? Look at some of the things he posts, a Daily Mail articles from almost 3 years ago, linking to government advice on mask wearing claiming it says you can't challenge anyone who isn't, when it says nothing of the sort and I had already posted the law, claiming mask wearers are 'moaners and on a high horse' if they complain about people who don't, stating as fact the peak was reached before we went into the first lockdown, despite there being 5 times more cases a month later.

As I say, I don't have any problem with anyone having a different view to me, and I'm much less convinced this second lockdown was needed than the first, but I do take issue with anyone who backs up their statements with lies. If I posts a fact and it's made up, or plainly wrong, then I would expect to get pulled to bits for saying it.

Atm it's only a few of us offering a dissenting opinion, maybe that offends people, it's the life and death issues, I think dealer knows when the financial damage hits, thousands of people will be left high and dry, [it's happening now] no one should be rounded on for stating they think there is or was a better approach, the swedish officials certainly felt that way [anders tegnell and his predecessor] and I highly doubt they are people without compassion. whereas neil ferguson and hancock I wouldn't be so certain.

It certainly doesn't offend me :) I like debate, and differing views, it challenges me to look further into things and get a greater understanding of things.

Obviously I'm aware of the anti lockdown arguments and I agree with some of them. Job losses are going to be horrendous, especially in the leisure and hospitality industries. I'm not sure that they will be gone forever though, and, just as some people claim, the virus isn't killing people, it's just shortening their lives by a few months (which is the same thing really), pubs were closing at an alarming rate before the virus, surely you could argue the lockdown has just sped up what was inevitable anyway? People will still want to go out for meals when this is over, the hospitality venues that have closed and laid staff off will likely re-open if they were previously profitable, either by the original owners or by someone who has bought/rented the business. They will then be taking staff on again. Some industries have boomed, supermarkets for example, I know my local Morrisons took on almost 70 new staff they were so much busier than before. Many hotels will re-open, people will still want holidays when this is over, businesses will have overnight stays again, a lot of staff will be re-employed.
 
Hey we are all entitled to our opinions, and I respect everyone on here and love casinomeisters great forum.

Just seen this on Twitter but the article is behind a paywall, not great if Bristol Uni are right, lockdown will kill 10 times as many people than covid in England.

Without seeing the article obviously can't say anything concrete, but it is all guesswork. It might cause 560000 deaths, but it might cause 50. What these headline grabbing articles never do is do a forecast of how many people would have died if we didn't have a lockdown and compare the figures, they always go from the figures we have now, but that isn't right. The first lockdown clearly stopped the spread and stopped as many people dying. If it hadn't happened, the deaths would have been much bigger. There was around a 500% increase in the first month of lockdown in deaths, and you could easily argue that percentage would have been greater without restrictions. Even working on 500%, without lockdown daily deaths could have been 5000 by mid may, then 25000 mid june, 125000 mid july. Obviously it's not as simple as that, but that tends to be how the forecasts work.

The article will, no doubt, say things like '5000 people were stopped from having treatment for cancer', but doesn't say how many of those 5000 were terminal and would have died within 12 months anyway. And I know thats not good, but when people are arguing that Covid isn't killing people, as most people would have died within 12 months anyway, then you have to argue the same for the cancer deaths.
 
You also have to bear in mind, China quite possibly aren't being totally truthful with their figures, although I doubt they are under estimating them to the extent that would take them from one of the best coping countries in the world to one of the worst.
I don't know what it's like around you, but certainly up here, the lockdown hasn't done anything, if anything places are busier. They may as well have just closed the pubs than made a full lockdown. The shops that are left open are busier than they were during the last one, the roads are busier than normal, beaches and parks are busier than they usually are on a hot summers day, and social distancing seems non existent most the time.

What annoys me is when things are posted as fact, not so much on here, but on social media with links to scientific reports to back up the claims, which, lets be honest, most people won't understand. They then start spreading whatever has been posted as fact, people believe them and ends up with no one having any idea what they can/can't do, what is/isn't true. If I started posting as fact 'don't take the vaccine as the government are going to embed microchips into your blood' and refused to discuss it, just kept reposting it, would you think that was acceptable? Look at some of the things he posts, a Daily Mail articles from almost 3 years ago, linking to government advice on mask wearing claiming it says you can't challenge anyone who isn't, when it says nothing of the sort and I had already posted the law, claiming mask wearers are 'moaners and on a high horse' if they complain about people who don't, stating as fact the peak was reached before we went into the first lockdown, despite there being 5 times more cases a month later.

As I say, I don't have any problem with anyone having a different view to me, and I'm much less convinced this second lockdown was needed than the first, but I do take issue with anyone who backs up their statements with lies. If I posts a fact and it's made up, or plainly wrong, then I would expect to get pulled to bits for saying it.

It certainly doesn't offend me :) I like debate, and differing views, it challenges me to look further into things and get a greater understanding of things.

Obviously I'm aware of the anti lockdown arguments and I agree with some of them. Job losses are going to be horrendous, especially in the leisure and hospitality industries. I'm not sure that they will be gone forever though, and, just as some people claim, the virus isn't killing people, it's just shortening their lives by a few months (which is the same thing really), pubs were closing at an alarming rate before the virus, surely you could argue the lockdown has just sped up what was inevitable anyway? People will still want to go out for meals when this is over, the hospitality venues that have closed and laid staff off will likely re-open if they were previously profitable, either by the original owners or by someone who has bought/rented the business. They will then be taking staff on again. Some industries have boomed, supermarkets for example, I know my local Morrisons took on almost 70 new staff they were so much busier than before. Many hotels will re-open, people will still want holidays when this is over, businesses will have overnight stays again, a lot of staff will be re-employed.


I didn't trust the chinese figures when I saw them, but then again japan's are low. There is the issue of 'died with covid', could it be countries with low obesity fare better. I think obesity can affect your breathing normally, you get shortness of breath from exercise far quicker for example.

My town is still quite busy now, whereas before in April and May it was way more quiet, like a sunday when shops were closed, the commuter bike racks are empty whereas before you couldn't move for bicycles. We've had a precarious economy for many years, everything is interlinked, confidence-demand-retail-housing market, so I don't think the effects will be contained to hospitality.

The true costs may not be discovered for many years, the media are starting to cover that side now but I sense it's huge and mostly not reaching the headlines, for example the level of domestic incidents, violence/abuse are surging, so then there will be family break-ups.

I haven't seen or read anything to date that convinces me much that Johan Giesecke was wrong in his interview with unherd back at the start, and that the human immunity factor must be discounted and discarded from any debate, otherwise london's figures couldn't be this low in a pandemic situation, tfl recently ran tests and detected no coronavirus in the underground system.

The govt should be presenting strong evidence their measures are the right way, and yet why would any decent, serious & solemn govt appoint hancock as the health minister to lead on this type of challenge. There must be a better candidate somewhere in conservative ranks.
 
I didn't trust the chinese figures when I saw them, but then again japan's are low. There is the issue of 'died with covid', could it be countries with low obesity fare better. I think obesity can affect your breathing normally, you get shortness of breath from exercise far quicker for example.

My town is still quite busy now, whereas before in April and May it was way more quiet, like a sunday when shops were closed, the commuter bike racks are empty whereas before you couldn't move for bicycles. We've had a precarious economy for many years, everything is interlinked, confidence-demand-retail-housing market, so I don't think the effects will be contained to hospitality.

The true costs may not be discovered for many years, the media are starting to cover that side now but I sense it's huge and mostly not reaching the headlines, for example the level of domestic incidents, violence/abuse are surging, so then there will be family break-ups.

I haven't seen or read anything to date that convinces me much that Johan Giesecke was wrong in his interview with unherd back at the start, and that the human immunity factor must be discounted and discarded from any debate, otherwise london's figures couldn't be this low in a pandemic situation, tfl recently ran tests and detected no coronavirus in the underground system.

The govt should be presenting strong evidence their measures are the right way, and yet why would any decent, serious & solemn govt appoint hancock as the health minister to lead on this type of challenge. There must be a better candidate somewhere in conservative ranks.

Some experts are taking this into account. I've read, for the Belgian situation fyi, that because of the fact that in my province we were the hardest hit in the 1st wave the 2nd wave never really took off because of 1. some form of herd immunity in the hardest hit places and 2. people being far more cautious because of what happened in spring.

Dr. Barbé, a highly respected biostatistician who also provides our government's corona taskforce with statistics, is estimating that there is around 24% immunity amongst the Belgian population right now (that'd mean around 2.5 million people have had the virus on an official count of around 600k). It's not insignificant and it could mean that if there's a possible 3rd wave the virus has a harder time finding hosts and being transmitted.
 
While some posters are hellbent to see lockdowns as evil and doing more harm than good, they should also look how things have been handled in some Asian countries. I'd personally be more interested to see how things are going on in e.g. Taiwan (densely populated island nation) than Sweden if I lived in the UK.

Lockdowns

Yes, Japan and Taiwan for example did not have harsh national, mandatory lockdowns. But the governments asked people to either stay in voluntary quarantine or used incentives wisely (stay in quarantine and get paid, don't stay in quarantine and get fined).

It's not really about if lockdowns work or not. It's pretty clear that lockdowns do work in slowing down the pandemic. This should be a non-issue, especially now, since the vaccines are in the horizon. Some people focus too much if a lockdown is mandatory or not. Lockdowns are actually used all over the globe. In some places, they are just taken seriously without the need for legislation or regulation. In other places, people see if as unnecessary interference of their rights and liberties. There are Karens in every single country, some just have more than is reasonable.

Taiwan was also one of the worst places hit by Sars in 2003, so they were prepared and knew how to react to Covid-19. For example, they had a smart health card system in place, which was effective in distributing masks to everyone (they see masks as a "physical vaccine") and enforcing quarantine restrictions.

Europe and the US were too careless and focused on the wrong things at the beginning. Until the pandemic reached their shores.

Masks

The use of masks are common in many Asian countries. You use them because they are seen as effective towards the health of others, not yourself. Again, people use them without much thinking about it. But some western societies again blow this out of proportion. "My body and nobody is going to say how I treat it", or something as retarded as that.

Social distancing

In many countries people respect the personal space of others naturally. And in a pandemic situation it's just common sense. Once again, you can see this as something negative since it's mandated by the government or other authorities. Or you could see it as something which makes sense.


All of the above measures are effective in slowing down the virus. Yes, there's a cost to every restriction. So does everything else in life. For some, the cost might seem too high for the benefits achieved by these restrictions.

But in a pandemic situation it's not about you, it's about other people. You either care or you don't. It's decent human behaviour or assholery of epic proportions.

That choice is true freedom btw. Freedom is not something awarded to you from a constitution or something handed down to you by some fictious deity. Like I said earlier, you freedom ends when my freedom starts. It's all about courtesy and respect of others.
 
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While some posters are hellbent to see lockdowns as evil and doing more harm than good, they should also look how things have been handled in some Asian countries. I'd personally be more interested to see how things are going on in e.g. Taiwan (densely populated island nation) than Sweden if I lived in the UK.

Lockdowns

Yes, Japan and Taiwan for example did not have harsh national, mandatory lockdowns. But the governments asked people to either stay in voluntary quarantine or used incentives wisely (stay in quarantine and get paid, don't stay in quarantine and get fined).

It's not really about if lockdowns work or not. It's pretty clear that lockdowns do work in slowing down the pandemic. This should be a non-issue, especially now, since the vaccines are in the horizon. Some people focus too much if a lockdown is mandatory or not. Lockdowns are actually used all over the globe. In some places, they are just taken seriously without the need for legislation or regulation. In other places, people see if as unnecessary interference of their rights and liberties. There are Karens in every single country, some just have more than is reasonable.

Taiwan was also one of the worst places hit by Sars in 2003, so they were prepared and knew how to react to Covid-19. For example, they had a smart health card system in place, which was effective in distributing masks to everyone (they see masks as a "physical vaccine") and enforcing quarantine restrictions.

Europe and the US were too careless and focused on the wrong things at the beginning. Until the pandemic reached their shores.

Masks

The use of masks are common in many Asian countries. You use them because they are seen as effective towards the health of others, not yourself. Again, people use them without much thinking about it. But some western societies again blow this out of proportion. "My body and nobody is going to say how I treat it", or something as retarded as that.

Social distancing

In many countries people respect other the personal space of others naturally. And in a pandemic situation it's just common sense. Once again, you can see this as something negative since it's mandated by the government or other authorities. Or you could see it as something which makes sense.


All of the above measures are effective in slowing down the virus. Yes, there's a cost to every restriction. So does everything else in life. For some, the cost might seem too high for the benefits achieved by these restrictions.

But in a pandemic situation it's not about you, it's about other people. You either care or you don't. It's decent human behaviour or assholery of epic proportions.

That choice is true freedom btw. Freedom is not something awarded to you from a constitution or something handed down to you by some fictious deity. Like I said earlier, you freedom ends when my freedom starts. It's all about courtesy and respect of others.

Thats very well said and set out.
I was wondering earlier if some people had different definitions of 'worked' surrounding lockdowns. When I say they seem to work, it's for the reason you say, they slow down the virus, but I do think some people say they don't work as the virus is still here. In fact I've seen people say that on social media.
The social distancing side of it is also particularly relevant in my view. I'm not exaggerating when I saw, almost every time I've been out shopping since March I have had to say something to someone for getting too close. I don't mean slightly under a metre, but touching, or inches away. How I say something does depend on who it is, usually its a jokey 'wow thats a bit close' type of thing, but have had a couple of times when youngish lads (usually early 20's) have got a bit lippy, which is then quite funny watching them slink away when I've explained to them why it wasn't a good idea to do that ;)
 
Some of the collateral damage in the uk from govt decisions and handling of the covid virus.

The lancet editorial:

On Oct 6, 2020, in response to questions in Parliament regarding cancer outcomes during COVID-19, the UK Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, stated the “best way to keep cancer services running is to suppress [coronavirus]”. We beg to differ. The notion that cancer care provision should be contingent on the success of policies to contain COVID-19 is as offensive as it is irresponsible.

Cancer care cannot be put on hold; cancer care during the pandemic should not be beyond the capacity of the UK’s ostensibly world-class health system; and patients with suspected or prevalent cancer must not be denied timely access to care.

The devastating effect of the first UK lockdown earlier this year on cancer screening, diagnosis, treatment, and supportive care has been widely documented. So far, an estimated 3 million people have missed cancer screenings, and between April and August, 2020, suspected cancer referrals were down 350,000 compared with the same period in 2019.

Other countries have managed to continue with provision of cancer care despite COVID-19 and will not have the devastating legacy the UK will endure in the years to come.

Yet, in Parliament on Oct 15, Hancock reiterated that “unless we suppress the virus, we cannot keep non-COVID NHS services going

Hancock, and by extension, the UK Government, have set up a false choice between COVID-19 and other life-threatening diseases; the way forward must be to find an equitable and humane way to address both. Mr Hancock, we implore you: provide patients with cancer the continuity of care they deserve. If you are unable to achieve this, you should relinquish your role immediately to someone who can.

------------


I'd put this into the criminal category of failure of govt, brought about by short sightedness or sheer lack of concern, and worthy of the description 'assholery of epic proportions' (to quote ternur).
 
Some of the collateral damage in the uk from govt decisions and handling of the covid virus.

The lancet editorial:

On Oct 6, 2020, in response to questions in Parliament regarding cancer outcomes during COVID-19, the UK Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, stated the “best way to keep cancer services running is to suppress [coronavirus]”. We beg to differ. The notion that cancer care provision should be contingent on the success of policies to contain COVID-19 is as offensive as it is irresponsible.

Cancer care cannot be put on hold; cancer care during the pandemic should not be beyond the capacity of the UK’s ostensibly world-class health system; and patients with suspected or prevalent cancer must not be denied timely access to care.

The devastating effect of the first UK lockdown earlier this year on cancer screening, diagnosis, treatment, and supportive care has been widely documented. So far, an estimated 3 million people have missed cancer screenings, and between April and August, 2020, suspected cancer referrals were down 350,000 compared with the same period in 2019.

Other countries have managed to continue with provision of cancer care despite COVID-19 and will not have the devastating legacy the UK will endure in the years to come.

Yet, in Parliament on Oct 15, Hancock reiterated that “unless we suppress the virus, we cannot keep non-COVID NHS services going

Hancock, and by extension, the UK Government, have set up a false choice between COVID-19 and other life-threatening diseases; the way forward must be to find an equitable and humane way to address both. Mr Hancock, we implore you: provide patients with cancer the continuity of care they deserve. If you are unable to achieve this, you should relinquish your role immediately to someone who can.

------------


I'd put this into the criminal category of failure of govt, brought about by short sightedness or sheer lack of concern, and worthy of the description 'assholery of epic proportions' (to quote ternur).
As much as I don't disagree that cancer treatments should have continued, I'm not sure the lockdown contributed fully to the figures. My friend had cancer treatment (an operation that left him in ICU for over 2 weeks in April) during lockdown, and a lot of the screenings were missed because people weren't going to GP's etc as they were scared of catching Covid, that is covered in the link below

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and more recently

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It could also be argued that if the lockdown hadn't happened, the NHS would have been overwhelmed and wouldn't have been able to deliver cancer services at all, so it certainly isn't black and white.
 
As much as I don't disagree that cancer treatments should have continued, I'm not sure the lockdown contributed fully to the figures. My friend had cancer treatment (an operation that left him in ICU for over 2 weeks in April) during lockdown, and a lot of the screenings were missed because people weren't going to GP's etc as they were scared of catching Covid, that is covered in the link below

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and more recently

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It could also be argued that if the lockdown hadn't happened, the NHS would have been overwhelmed and wouldn't have been able to deliver cancer services at all, so it certainly isn't black and white.

As the lancet states other countries found a way, although I read earlier sweden did pause a lot of its cancer screening at the height of the covid cases.

I accept it is complicated, so have to defer to the various experts, including the lancet, and patient's testimonies. At the moment it's pointing me in one direction, that thousands have been let down.

Maybe we should have had a stricter but shorter lockdown earlier; cancelled air travel, cancelled sporting events like cheltenham?

------------------

Just seen this article in the Mail:
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A three-month investigation by the Sunday Times, which spoke to more than 50 witnesses, including doctors, bereaved families, care home workers, politicians and government advisers, concluded that the NHS was denying elderly and frail patients a bed in ICU based on the assumption they would be less likely to beat the virus.

As part of the investigation, the paper claims some GPs were asked to identify frail and elderly patients who would be left at home, even if they needed hospital treatment due to complications from Covid-19.

It also claims NHS England issued guidance about groups of patients who should not ordinarily be taken to hospital without the green light from a senior doctor. These groups include all care home residents.

Meanwhile, paramedics were told to be more selective about who they take into hospital, the paper added.

The paper also claims the controversial triage tool, which was first discussed by the UK's Moral and Ethical Advisory Group (MEAG) at the start of the pandemic in March, was used in hospitals in Manchester, Liverpool, London, the Midlands and the southeast.

The tool was to be used to give a score to patients using their age, frailty and pre-existing health conditions. That score would then be used work out if a patient should be selected for critical care, should they need it, with 'eight' being the cut-off point.

Under the tool, those over the age of 80 would score nine on their age alone, meaning they would automatically be excluded, while over 75s were marked close to eight to begin with. Even those aged over 60 could be at risk of missing out on treatment on the triage tool, if they had an underlying health condition and were considered frail.

------------


Hope bojo and his cronies don't attempt to hide behind the 30 year rule...
 
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There was an alarming 20% rise in babies being killed or harmed during the first lockdown, Ofsted's chief inspector Amanda Spielman has revealed.

Sixty four babies were deliberately harmed in England - eight of whom died. Some 40% of the 300 incidents reported involved infants, up a fifth on 2019.

Ms Spielman believes a "toxic mix" of isolation, poverty and mental illness caused the March to October spike. Health staff and social workers were hampered by Covid restrictions. And many regular visits could not take place, while others were carried out remotely, using the telephone or video links.

She added: "The pandemic has brought difficult and stressful times. Financial hardship, loss of employment, isolation, and close family proximity have put extra pressure on families that were already struggling.

"Poverty, inadequate housing, substance misuse and poor mental health all add to this toxic mix.
"You'll be well aware of the increase in domestic violence incidents over the summer - just one symptom of the Covid pressure cooker."

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
Most of what he's posted has been stuff he's lifted from Facebook and/or Twitter where people make claims that then get shared, but when the claims are examined, are found to be false.
He has more than once claimed Sweden took the right approach in not having a lockdown as their figures showed that to be the case. The fact is, they don't. When you compare them to a similar country that did have a lockdown, ie Norway, they are MUCH worse. 10 times worse in fact.
I've repeatedly asked how he thinks Sweden have done so much better when they have worse figures, to be completely ignored. It's not a case of having time to research arguments or suchlike, if you post something as fact, then surely you have already looked into it, or why post it as though you have?

If he posts something I don't agree with then I will say so and always try to back up my argument with facts or reasons why I disagree. I have called him a troll a couple of times recently, as thats what he was doing. Posting something he knew others would disagree with, then refusing to engage or say why, when asked. That is literally what a troll does.

I am also fully aware that lockdowns can cause other effects, suicides, job losses etc, but those effects can't be counted yet, so no one can say they will be worse, or better, than what would have happened if we didn't have a lockdown. Just like I wouldn't try to argue that we need lockdowns as the cost to the country in the future will be massive due to the crippling after effects of this virus, damage to lungs etc, as we don't actually know how bad it will be.
The fact remains that being personal is not conductive to stimulating debate or encouraging people to post their thoughts. It is alternative opinions that fuel debate no matter how outlandish they may be to the reader. Personal insults and attacks do kill debate and decrease forum traffic.
If I wished to I could post unbiased data endlessly that would stimulate endless debate but it would only encourage outrage and personal abuse to some degree from complicity theorists and those who simply can not abide those who have a differing opinion or present differing arguments to their own.
 
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There was an alarming 20% rise in babies being killed or harmed during the first lockdown, Ofsted's chief inspector Amanda Spielman has revealed.

Sixty four babies were deliberately harmed in England - eight of whom died. Some 40% of the 300 incidents reported involved infants, up a fifth on 2019.

Ms Spielman believes a "toxic mix" of isolation, poverty and mental illness caused the March to October spike. Health staff and social workers were hampered by Covid restrictions. And many regular visits could not take place, while others were carried out remotely, using the telephone or video links.

She added: "The pandemic has brought difficult and stressful times. Financial hardship, loss of employment, isolation, and close family proximity have put extra pressure on families that were already struggling.

"Poverty, inadequate housing, substance misuse and poor mental health all add to this toxic mix.
"You'll be well aware of the increase in domestic violence incidents over the summer - just one symptom of the Covid pressure cooker."

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
Having seen Social Services in action recently, I have absolutely no faith in them to do anything correctly, certainly in this area.
 
The fact remains that being personal is not conductive to stimulating debate or encouraging people to post their thoughts. It is alternative opinions that fuel debate no matter how outlandish they may be to the reader. Personal insults and attacks do kill debate and decrease forum traffic.
If I wished to I could post unbiased data endlessly that would stimulate endless debate but it would only encourage outrage and personal abuse to some degree from complicit theorists and those who simply can not abide those who have a differing opinion to their own.
There is no debate when someone posts an 'OMG' link then refuses to answer a single point you raise. As I said earlier, if you post fake news, then people will question it. Plus he doesn't post a lot of stuff as opinion, he's posting it as fact. Calling someone a troll for trolling isn't a personal attack, it's just stating what they are doing.
I don't call mack a troll, he has pretty much the opposite view to me on most things on this thread, but he will explain why and use good links to back up his opinion, therefore he isn't trolling, he is having a discussion. Thats miles away from putting a 3 year old Daily Mail link into the thread then refusing to discuss it.
 
There is no debate when someone posts an 'OMG' link then refuses to answer a single point you raise. As I said earlier, if you post fake news, then people will question it. Plus he doesn't post a lot of stuff as opinion, he's posting it as fact. Calling someone a troll for trolling isn't a personal attack, it's just stating what they are doing.
I don't call mack a troll, he has pretty much the opposite view to me on most things on this thread, but he will explain why and use good links to back up his opinion, therefore he isn't trolling, he is having a discussion. Thats miles away from putting a 3 year old Daily Mail link into the thread then refusing to discuss it.
I was not pointing the finger at you specifically but the guy you mention has every right to post his opinions without being told in effect to fuck off. Because that is exactly what the posters will do leaving only those who are like minded to post endless nodding messages to each other
 
As the lancet states other countries found a way, although I read earlier sweden did pause a lot of its cancer screening at the height of the covid cases.

I accept it is complicated, so have to defer to the various experts, including the lancet, and patient's testimonies. At the moment it's pointing me in one direction, that thousands have been let down.

Maybe we should have had a stricter but shorter lockdown earlier; cancelled air travel, cancelled sporting events like cheltenham?

------------------

Just seen this article in the Mail:
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A three-month investigation by the Sunday Times, which spoke to more than 50 witnesses, including doctors, bereaved families, care home workers, politicians and government advisers, concluded that the NHS was denying elderly and frail patients a bed in ICU based on the assumption they would be less likely to beat the virus.

As part of the investigation, the paper claims some GPs were asked to identify frail and elderly patients who would be left at home, even if they needed hospital treatment due to complications from Covid-19.

It also claims NHS England issued guidance about groups of patients who should not ordinarily be taken to hospital without the green light from a senior doctor. These groups include all care home residents.

Meanwhile, paramedics were told to be more selective about who they take into hospital, the paper added.

The paper also claims the controversial triage tool, which was first discussed by the UK's Moral and Ethical Advisory Group (MEAG) at the start of the pandemic in March, was used in hospitals in Manchester, Liverpool, London, the Midlands and the southeast.

The tool was to be used to give a score to patients using their age, frailty and pre-existing health conditions. That score would then be used work out if a patient should be selected for critical care, should they need it, with 'eight' being the cut-off point.

Under the tool, those over the age of 80 would score nine on their age alone, meaning they would automatically be excluded, while over 75s were marked close to eight to begin with. Even those aged over 60 could be at risk of missing out on treatment on the triage tool, if they had an underlying health condition and were considered frail.

------------


Hope bojo and his cronies don't attempt to hide behind the 30 year rule...

Did other countries offer the full service though? I must admit I haven't looked at this massively, so it is a genuine question. From the chart on the links I posted it seemed as though we were still starting over 15000 treatments per week, so it's not as if all cancer treatment stopped completely, and the evidence shows that a lot of people weren't going for appointments as they were scared of catching the virus, rather than being told they couldn't. Surely if the lockdown hadn't happened, that would have been the case anyway? I know I read somewhere that GP appointments were down massively in the week before the lockdown.

Letting Cheltenham go ahead was a ridiculous decision, and clearly mistakes were made early on, but in fairness to the government, this was something they hadn't expected and they were clearly making decisions based on scientific evidence and forecasts, a lot of which has been shown to be wrong. Thats also part the reason why I don't take too much notice of the same scientists making claims about what will happen in months/years to come.

Again, the ICU admissions procedure was clearly flawed, but thats in hindsight, and lets be honest, if your 80 year old grandmother had a condition that would cause her usually to be taken to hospital, and she was going to be placed into an ICU bed next to someone who had Covid-19, which if she caught it would almost certainly cause her to die, it wouldn't be an easy decision to decide if she should go in or not.

I think the government got a lot wrong, but would be more inclined to forgive early mistakes when we knew so much less about the virus, than ones recently.

I was not pointing the finger at you specifically but the guy you mention has every right to post his opinions without being told in effect to fuck off. Because that is exactly what the posters will do leaving only those who are like minded to post endless nodding messages to each other

When he starts posting his opinions as opinions rather than facts and/or at least discussing them, then I won't say he's trolling. What he has done multiple times on this thread is the exact definition of trolling :(.
 
Think the gov is doing the right thing, I know Xmas is coming up but now is the time when restrictions are going to play
a major role is seeing us through till we can get vaccinated,I know its shit but i have been personally affected by covid,a friend
has died from it as well, its got to be the best way to eradicate it, if we dont take a firm stance now it will continuous stop start
lockdowns for the forseeable future.
 
Again, the ICU admissions procedure was clearly flawed, but thats in hindsight, and lets be honest, if your 80 year old grandmother had a condition that would cause her usually to be taken to hospital, and she was going to be placed into an ICU bed next to someone who had Covid-19, which if she caught it would almost certainly cause her to die, it wouldn't be an easy decision to decide if she should go in or not.

I may have misread that then as I thought it meant the elderly with covid were denied hospital treatment, either way it's still bad, should have been a way of keeping covid patients seperate fom non-covid, probably has exposed the inadequacy of the nhs to cope with emergencies and challenging health, cross contamination etc.. similar to the hospital super bugs problem they had/have. the NHS needs root and branch reform imo - just as an outpatient from time to time, you can see they're struggling.

Did other countries offer the full service though? I must admit I haven't looked at this massively, so it is a genuine question. From the chart on the links I posted it seemed as though we were still starting over 15000 treatments per week, so it's not as if all cancer treatment stopped completely, and the evidence shows that a lot of people weren't going for appointments as they were scared of catching the virus, rather than being told they couldn't

not sure, only going on what the lancet said, also sufferinsilence did say to me once, in belgium they managed to keep the normal treatment service going. other countries have a private health system subsidised by govt not run by govt, so could be they're more efficiently run away from political interference and crap management. Well i think 'protect the nhs' was maybe the wrong message, people were scared to use the nhs - either from catching covid or feeling their problem could wait as covid was more important - again this was the message being framed by the media and govt. If that person then has a worse health outcome due to delay, then that's no good, no point protecting something in order for it to then run at 20% for non-covid issues, which can be more serious like cancer.
 
I may have misread that then as I thought it meant the elderly with covid were denied hospital treatment, either way it's still bad, should have been a way of keeping covid patients seperate fom non-covid, probably has exposed the inadequacy of the nhs to cope with emergencies and challenging health, cross contamination etc.. similar to the hospital super bugs problem they had/have. the NHS needs root and branch reform imo - just as an outpatient from time to time, you can see they're struggling.

I might have came across wrong on that point, I know some people were refused treatment, a lot of operations were cancelled or put back, but it wasn't solely that. As an example, my friend was told he would be dead in 6 months if he didn't have the operation within a few days. Luckily it was scheduled at the Freeman in Newcastle which, at that time, had had zero cases and was totally clear. That was the only reason he went ahead with it. He said, if it had been at Sunderland he would have refused it, as 6 months was better than 2-3 weeks in ICU then dying of Covid, which I had to agree with. It was rampant in Sunderland at the time, so much so that they set up temporary morgues out the back, they were expecting so many deaths. But that would have been his choice, not anything to do with lockdown, but solely a decision he would have made because of Covid. Obviously thats only one case, but I presume others had the same sort of choice to make.

not sure, only going on what the lancet said, also sufferinsilence did say to me once, in belgium they managed to keep the normal treatment service going. other countries have a private health system subsidised by govt not run by govt, so could be they're more efficiently run away from political interference and crap management. Well i think 'protect the nhs' was maybe the wrong message, people were scared to use the nhs - either from catching covid or feeling their problem could wait as covid was more important - again this was the message being framed by the media and govt. If that person then has a worse health outcome due to delay, then that's no good, no point protecting something in order for it to then run at 20% for non-covid issues, which can be more serious like cancer.

I don't particularly disagree with that, I think the NHS do a great job, but is extremely badly run, and the amount of money wasted is criminal. Stuff like £850 to supply and fit a roller blind (
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), I've heard from Doctors that the contractors can charge £100 to replace a light bulb if it's outside of working hours, something a member of staff could do for £3 if they bought it themselves.

That message from the government and media was correct though, certainly back in March/April. The hospitals were crawling with it, it was (and is) highly infectious and the ICU beds were almost full of people who had it. You had a very high chance of getting it if you needed to go into an ICU ward. Yes, in a perfect world they should have isolated the people with it, but if you have 20 ICU beds in a hospital, with 20 sets of ICU equipment, spread over 2 wards of 10, and you have 17 people with Covid taking up 17 beds, you can't isolate the other 3 beds. You could refuse treatment to 7 of the covid cases and keep a ward 'clean', but then you would basically be saying, sorry, you need to go home and die to the 7 they didn't treat. Again though, I don't think that had anything to do with lockdown, more the virus. I'm also not really sure what a worse health outcome to death would be.

What I've never seen explained is how we were supposed to contain the spread of COVID from April onwards, without having a lockdown, the inevitable consequence of which, is missed appointments. If we didn’t lockdown then the sheer number of deaths and staff absences would have cancelled the services for us, only with many more deaths to boot. I've seen plenty of people be asked similar questions when they have been saying we shouldn't have had a lockdown, but apart from 'Sweden' (didn't work) and 'Herd Immunity' (which wouldn't work) answers, I've never seen one that made any sense.
 
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Think the gov is doing the right thing, I know Xmas is coming up but now is the time when restrictions are going to play
a major role is seeing us through till we can get vaccinated,I know its shit but i have been personally affected by covid,a friend
has died from it as well, its got to be the best way to eradicate it, if we dont take a firm stance now it will continuous stop start
lockdowns for the forseeable future.

I have nothing but admiration for people who are prepared to have the vaccine. I will be amazed if 20% of people have it. Anyone remotely healthy and under 70, its literally adding to your chance of dying!!
 
I have nothing but admiration for people who are prepared to have the vaccine. I will be amazed if 20% of people have it. Anyone remotely healthy and under 70, its literally adding to your chance of dying!!
How?
I thought you were against lockdowns anyway? If only 20% of the population have the vaccine, herd immunity won't be achieved and therefore this time next year we will still be going through restrictions and lockdowns.
 
How?
I thought you were against lockdowns anyway? If only 20% of the population have the vaccine, herd immunity won't be achieved and therefore this time next year we will still be going through restrictions and lockdowns.
I dont agree with lockdowns or rushed risky vaccines, for a virus that kills just 0.02 of healthy under 60 yr olds even if they are unlucky enough to catch covid.

We should have saved our £700 billion war chest JIC a real pandemic comes along, one that actually is devastating and takes 1 in 5 of all ages and would actually need a lockdown, not that anyone would even need to be instructed to lockdown in that scenario.
 

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