Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion

[ChopleyIOM]

My mother-in-law got vaccinated in the middle of last week, even though we're Covid-Free here - (you know, zero Covid, that 'threat to democracy' thing) - we're still moving through a vaccination programme among similar lines to the UK because we want the extra protection of having a vaccinated population.

(As an aside, I can't quite believe we've entered a sort of weird alternate reality where the phrase 'vaccinated population' has been taken by some people to imply some kind of oppressive Orwellian dystopia, as opposed to a population that has better health prospects than an unvaccinated population.)

She was given the Pfizer vaccine and will be getting her second dose at around the recommended 21 day interval. Because there is a (very small!) risk of anaphylaxis with the Pfizer vaccine (around 2 incidents per one million doses) she was taken to a waiting room for 15 minutes afterwards in case it occurred with her, and they are on hand with the shot of epinephrine if it occurs.

There was no problem so she went home with my father-in-law afterwards, and then later that day felt a bit tired and woozy, also her arm got sore. But she went to bed later that evening as normal, woke up feeling fine in the morning, and indeed has been fine since. (They both came round yesterday for a cup of tea and a chat, as our lockdown has finished now. You know, lockdowns, those things that never work.)

My father-in-law is due to get his first shot at the start of next month, as he's a bit younger than my mother-in-law so falls into the next age category down. Like my mother-in-law, he's not stressing about it at all, also, like people of their generation they can remember a time when diseases like polio were still a thing and remember the miracle of vaccination freeing entire populations from the risk of such disease.

I can't imagine I'll be in line for vaccination any time soon as I'm under 50 and don't have any other health complications, but if we get to a point a few months down the line where everyone else has been done and they offer the vaccine to me, I'll get it done.

 

[mack341]

I bl**dy hope the vaccines are alright as I've got close family on the brink of having them, for some poor buggers though there have already been serious ill-effects, so to my mind this is not some mild medicine like cough syrup.

Benefits can outweigh the disadvantages for a population of millions, [probably do] however we're not a choiceless hive of bees or colony of ants but individuals. It is hard to work out risk, but the immune system is not totally useless against covid [and therapeutic meds could have been used too, to assist] and the vaccines are nothing without the immune system and its weapons.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Except it's not hard to work out the risk, because it's been quantified and the information has been made publicly available. That is why, for example, when my mother-in-law had her jab the other week she was taken to a waiting room afterwards, in case the VERY RARE AND STATISTICALLY KNOWN risk of her going into anaphylaxis occurred, and she could be administered epinephrine to counter it.

Moreover, the phrase 'herd immunity' that many in this thread are so fond of - (albeit by nonsense means such as enough people getting ill and many of them dying via massive infection levels, which wouldn't even work anyway) - well, that herd immunity is achieved via mass vaccination programmes whereby we get as close to 100% coverage as possible.

Diseases such as measles can start to take hold surprisingly quickly when vaccination rates start to drop even a relatively small amount.

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What are the 'disadvantages' for mass vaccination in a population of millions, and how do they outweigh the benefits? And I'm talking about an evidence-based answer here, not something along the lines of 'I feel a bit funny about it because mRNA is a new tech'. That's not evidence. Also, 'things might happen in the future that I've just made up in my head' isn't evidence either.

Our immune system can fight Covid to an extent, in some people it can fight it very effectively indeed, in others it can fail to the extent that they get very sick, and in many cases it can fail to an extent that the infected person dies, or is left with debilitating long-Covid.

This is no different in some regards to diseases such as Polio, which had a similar sort of range of effects on people, and we still thought it worthwhile to eradicate it with vaccination.

Maybe we should wind back the clock and decide to just let Polio have another throw of the dice? Most people infected were either completely asymptomatic or only got very mildly ill.

In fact, you could argue the Polio numbers don't really look that bad. Like some people continue to do with Covid, which up to now has killed over 110,000 people in the UK and hasn't finished yet by a long chalk.

So honestly mack, I'm genuinely curious, what are the disadvantages of mass-vaccination of which you speak?

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[mack341]

Chopley, I am looking at personal accounts/stories from twitter and the internet, incl articles in newpapers e.g. this recent one in the new york times about thrombocytopenia

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And If you look at the 2 databases the mhra provide, there are all manner of things listed, most side effects will be mild but some rare ones more serious because the immune system is involved.

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Taking into account that the pfizer safety trial is not completed until 2023, is not pie in the sky for a healthy person to think about, though somebody in their 60- 70's, or with poor health and terrified of covid, probably can't afford to wait.

Also they're going to adjust the vaccine by august to take account of the SA variant, potentially reactions could get more complex and unknown if you have a 3rd shot within 8 months, the first two could be mRNA and then the next one DNA, does anyone know for certain it's okay.

I wouldn't advise anybody not to have the vaccine, just giving my view as to why some, including me, won't be rushing to the docs to get it. Ditto the influenza jab even though the last time I had flu it was horrendous, an individual's health and the immune system is quite complicated, therefore I prefer to go natural as far as possible. Even after vaccination people are still advised to maintain social distancing and masks etc...things which supposedly are important to protect you.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So your evidence of a 'disadvantage' is the publicly available data that proves the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and produces adverse reactions very rarely, and severe adverse reactions even more rarely.

Considering that your stated goal is for life to get back to normal and for lockdowns to be lifted and all the rest of it, which route do you think would be best, considering that we can demonstrate with evidence that the vaccine is massively less likely to harm someone than Covid itself?

1) We vaccinate everyone against Covid, and accept that in a vanishingly small number of cases there will be an adverse reaction, which may extremely rarely, turn out to be serious. (Albeit non-fatal.)

2) We just let Covid do its thing in the (misguided) hope that we will achieve natural herd immunity, and accept that it will, along the way, compared to a mass vaccination programme, make massively more people ill and kill hundreds of thousands of people in the UK alone.

Even as a relatively young and healthy person, one is far more likely to be made ill by Covid than they are the vaccine.

If we look at, say, 'The Great Barrington Declaration', sooner or later pretty much everyone is going to end up catching Covid (as infinite shielding, even if it were acceptable, is impossible), and we know for a fact that's going to kill a lot of people.

So we're comparing the thing that's killed loads of people, and will kill loads more people if we don't do anything about it (Covid), to the thing that is capable of bringing the pandemic to an end and saving untold numbers of lives (the vaccine), and somehow concluding, 'Meh, I think on balance I prefer letting Covid take its best shot, I'm not so sure about this vaccine at all. Pass me the zinc'.

 

[shadow123]

Know 3 people who have had the Astra vaccine, all had same side effects, totally knackered and lethargic the day after,
just wanting to sleep,but all were fine the following day.Wont be too long before I get mine now hopefully so expecting
similar symptoms, certainly not enough to put me off having it.

 

[Borgie]

Know 3 people who have had the Astra vaccine, all had same side effects, totally knackered and lethargic the day after,
just wanting to sleep,but all were fine the following day.Wont be too long before I get mine now hopefully so expecting
similar symptoms, certainly not enough to put me off having it.

Many vaccines cause a day of arm aching or mild flu like symptoms . But 24 hours later as you say all is ok again. I think the benefits of vaccine far outweigh the risk of not taking it .

 

[cncas2123]

So far around 10 million people in the uk have received their first vaccines.
Of these 10 million vaccines there have been very few severe adverse events , around the 150 and this includes deaths that happened within a few weeks of taking the vaccine that cannot be directly attributed to the vaccine.
This is 0.000015% chance of adverse reaction as a maximum, and that’s pretty remarkable in my opinion.

Edited to correct the figure.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

'Yep, that vaccine is making me suspicious. As for Covid, nothing to really be afraid of, let's just get on with living our lives.'

'Oh but did they really die of Covid? I bet they didn't.'

etc

 

[mack341]

So your evidence of a 'disadvantage' is the publicly available data that proves the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and produces adverse reactions very rarely, and severe adverse reactions even more rarely.

Considering that your stated goal is for life to get back to normal and for lockdowns to be lifted and all the rest of it, which route do you think would be best, considering that we can demonstrate with evidence that the vaccine is massively less likely to harm someone than Covid itself?

1) We vaccinate everyone against Covid, and accept that in a vanishingly small number of cases there will be an adverse reaction, which may extremely rarely, turn out to be serious. (Albeit non-fatal.)

2) We just let Covid do its thing in the (misguided) hope that we will achieve natural herd immunity, and accept that it will, along the way, compared to a mass vaccination programme, make massively more people ill and kill hundreds of thousands of people in the UK alone.

Even as a relatively young and healthy person, one is far more likely to be made ill by Covid than they are the vaccine.

If we look at, say, 'The Great Barrington Declaration', sooner or later pretty much everyone is going to end up catching Covid (as infinite shielding, even if it were acceptable, is impossible), and we know for a fact that's going to kill a lot of people.

So we're comparing the thing that's killed loads of people, and will kill loads more people if we don't do anything about it (Covid), to the thing that is capable of bringing the pandemic to an end and saving untold numbers of lives (the vaccine), and somehow concluding, 'Meh, I think on balance I prefer letting Covid take its best shot, I'm not so sure about this vaccine at all. Pass me the zinc'.

Yes I'm willing to face covid unvaccinated and hope my immune system/health is able to beat it, I simply don't have the same faith that you do in the pharma people, and for me trials lasting about 10 months before they got approved aren't long enough to fully determine potential side effects.

Could be a very bad decision on my part, but presently I'd rather face a 'random' outcome which is likely tipped in my favour through age and not being obese or diabetic, having high blood pressure etc...

The other thing is when the trials took place were the participants in lockdown, following social distancing and mask wearing rules, just how much real exposure to the virus did they face?

And I have read a few times, that the vaccines reduce the severity of symptoms but not totally prevent you catching the virus, so if like many I experienced a mild illness that's the same outcome for the vaccinated elderly person [60-70 years old]

I am still pleased the option of having a covid vaccinaton exists, rather than there being none, for those that are vulnerable [which is a lot of people], but I remain unconvinced there are/were no therapeutic drugs in the medicine list book that could be repurposed, like ivermectin, which could make a difference to the deaths total.

 

[mack341]

Covid-19 is 'becoming an endemic' and 'we may have to learn to live it' says epidemiologist​

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Professor David Heymann, of the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, was asked on the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme if people were going to have to “learn to live with” coronavirus circulating.

He replied: “It certainly seems like that in the shorter term, and probably in the long term as well.

“Most experts believe that this disease is now becoming endemic, but the good thing is that we have many tools including vaccines with which we can deal with this virus.”

Asked if he believed closing borders would have an immediate impact, Prof Heymann said: “We’ve seen that countries that have closed their borders, such as New Zealand, have kept the virus out, but now their problem is what they do when they begin to open their borders?

Professor Adam Finn, an academic from the University of Bristol’s School of Clinical Sciences, said that it could take months for new vaccines to be created.

The member of the Joint Committee on Vaccines and Immunisations told BBC Breakfast: “It will take some time, simply because although the new variants can be adjusted in the vaccines they then have to come through the regulators, and then have to be manufactured at scale in order to be available.

“So it’s not a matter of a month or two, it’s probably more than that.

“But we currently have vaccines that are effective against the strains that are predominating in the UK and that should be clear in everybody’s minds that we’re not in a position where vaccines have suddenly stopped working entirely.”

 

[Jono777]

Yes I'm willing to face covid unvaccinated and hope my immune system/health is able to beat it, I simply don't have the same faith that you do in the pharma people, and for me trials lasting about 10 months before they got approved aren't long enough to fully determine potential side effects.

Could be a very bad decision on my part, but presently I'd rather face a 'random' outcome which is likely tipped in my favour through age and not being obese or diabetic, having high blood pressure etc...

The other thing is when the trials took place were the participants in lockdown, following social distancing and mask wearing rules, just how much real exposure to the virus did they face?

And I have read a few times, that the vaccines reduce the severity of symptoms but not totally prevent you catching the virus, so if like many I experienced a mild illness that's the same outcome for the vaccinated elderly person [60-70 years old]

I am still pleased the option of having a covid vaccinaton exists, rather than there being none, for those that are vulnerable [which is a lot of people], but I remain unconvinced there are/were no therapeutic drugs in the medicine list book that could be repurposed, like ivermectin, which could make a difference to the deaths total.

Spot on

Divulged and discussed during our last/latest Pharmacy Group Meeting and not one of the attendee's (100 ish) was in disagreement. Obviously these are people in the industry or at least those who have a lot closer connection to those in the industry than your average Joe!

 

[sufferinsilence]

Covid-19 is 'becoming an endemic' and 'we may have to learn to live it' says epidemiologist​

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Professor David Heymann, of the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, was asked on the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme if people were going to have to “learn to live with” coronavirus circulating.

He replied: “It certainly seems like that in the shorter term, and probably in the long term as well.

“Most experts believe that this disease is now becoming endemic, but the good thing is that we have many tools including vaccines with which we can deal with this virus.”

Asked if he believed closing borders would have an immediate impact, Prof Heymann said: “We’ve seen that countries that have closed their borders, such as New Zealand, have kept the virus out, but now their problem is what they do when they begin to open their borders?

Professor Adam Finn, an academic from the University of Bristol’s School of Clinical Sciences, said that it could take months for new vaccines to be created.

The member of the Joint Committee on Vaccines and Immunisations told BBC Breakfast: “It will take some time, simply because although the new variants can be adjusted in the vaccines they then have to come through the regulators, and then have to be manufactured at scale in order to be available.

“So it’s not a matter of a month or two, it’s probably more than that.

“But we currently have vaccines that are effective against the strains that are predominating in the UK and that should be clear in everybody’s minds that we’re not in a position where vaccines have suddenly stopped working entirely.”

New Zealand has already said that they will open their borders again when their population has reached the herd immunity through vaccination. They'd prefer it to be the whole population tho. Most likely they will be very cautious as to who is allowed to enter the country, perhaps only people who can prove they've been vaccinated to start with.

 

[sufferinsilence]

I am still pleased the option of having a covid vaccinaton exists, rather than there being none, for those that are vulnerable [which is a lot of people], but I remain unconvinced there are/were no therapeutic drugs in the medicine list book that could be repurposed, like ivermectin, which could make a difference to the deaths total.

Not sure if this has been posted yet, Israelian scientists have found something that seems to work fairly well.

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[colinsunderland]

Today's figures compared to last week

12,364 cases in the UK. -4,476
1,052 deaths in the UK. -397
1,987 patients admitted to hospital in the UK. -655
26,723 patients in hospital in the UK. -5,743
3,230 patients on ventilation in the UK. -496

Although they aren't great, they are massively down on what they were a few weeks ago. Cases are about 15% of what they were, people in hospital dropped about 35%. Deaths are still quite high, but the majority of them would have caught it a month ago so they should continue falling too.

Hopefully within a few weeks we might see some of the restrictions lifted, especially as the vaccination program is going so well (almost 3 million in the last week!)

Amazing how the thread troll keeps telling everyone lockdowns don't work, but here we are again, with massively lower figures than when it started.

 

[shadow123]

Got my vaccine appointment on Sunday, doing over 65s (yes I am that old which might explain a lot )
My sister told me they were doing them now but it wasnt on the news.
Second jab is booked as well but not till May,but you can bring it foward if you keep re scheduling it.

 

[dealer wins]

Amazing how the thread troll keeps telling everyone lockdowns don't work, but here we are again, with massively lower figures than when it started.

Amazing how there is still anyone alive in Sweden, according to the thread troll they should all be dead by now.

 

[mack341]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, Israelian scientists have found something that seems to work fairly well.

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I did see that on twitter, it sounds very promising, hopefully we could incorporate it here into our treatment options soon. It goes back to the 'cytokine storm' which was mentioned very early on, the body producing lots of inflammation and damaging the organs, the lungs being the worse area to suffer.

 

[KasinoKing]

Got to be honest - I haven't read this thread because I don't have a couple of weeks to spare...

But just wanted to report that I had my first jab today!
One small step...

KK

 

[dealer wins]

A little plug for the company I will be booking my next holiday with

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They get it

 

[Jono777]

A little plug for the company I will be booking my next holiday with

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They get it

I just read their "mission statement"

Although I actually do agree in part. I cannot believe a business trying to make money would actually share their beliefs in this matter so blatantly!

 

[Borgie]

I just read their "mission statement"

Although I actually do agree in part. I cannot believe a business trying to make money would actually share their beliefs in this matter so blatantly!

I agree totally. They say " the Uk government is a rogue government " !!!! So all the people who vote conservative are now unlikely to use them as their travel company of choice . Shoot yourself in foot why not. Next they will say only lefties welcome here. Are they for real?

 

[pinnit2014]

I agree totally. They say " the Uk government is a rogue government " !!!! So all the people who vote conservative are now unlikely to use them as their travel company of choice . Shoot yourself in foot why not. Next they will say only lefties welcome here. Are they for real?

Prob wouldn't stop them from accepting any state subsidies tho

When i read 'boutique' i normally equate it with over priced anyhow.

 

[Playford7]

A bit of corona cooking in manchester..

mega kebab, 3 meats, naan bread, dhansak sauce and mint and garlic sauce.

seriously it’s huge...

eaten half before I took the pic, what I’m showing you is what’s left...

 

[colinsunderland]

A little plug for the company I will be booking my next holiday with

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They get it

nah they just talk shite to get gullible people to post their links on forums

'Our view is that mandatory vaccinations, quarantine and travel restrictions are unlawful and impinge hugely on Human Rights'

So obviously they will have started high court proceedings on that?

 

[dealer wins]

nah they just talk shite to get gullible people to post their links on forums

'Our view is that mandatory vaccinations, quarantine and travel restrictions are unlawful and impinge hugely on Human Rights'

So obviously they will have started high court proceedings on that?

They are right, fundamental human rights are just that mate, they can never be removed .

 

[colinsunderland]

They are right, fundamental human rights are just that mate, they can never be removed .

So again, have they started court proceedings?
Which section of the Human Rights Act does it breach?

Will this turn out to be like the masks that you insisted was against human rights, then the disability act, but you refused to say which part because you were wrong?

 

[interlog]

They are right, fundamental human rights are just that mate, they can never be removed .

Whilst I don't agree with mandatory vaccinations (I am hazarding a guess that they may well be against the Human Rights Act), the other two elements are not in my opinion. The UK (and any other Country) has a right to deny entry. Governments have even prior to this Covid given out travel advice and when a Country is put on a list where it is not recommended to travel to, it first of all invalidates your travel insurance and secondly, airlines take heed of that advice. Example being Tunesia after they had those terrorist attacks against tourists.

 

[gonzo fonso]

even if the vaccine is not mandatory it will get to the stage if you dont have it you wont be accepted in society,no covid passport no entry in public places will be as simple as that,dont get me wrong in not a fan of the vaccine im 52 but feel that life will be very very restricted if one doesnt have it,they took our freedoms and do not want to give it back even with vaccines,this will backfire big time in the near future

 

[Borgie]

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.

Look at all these vaccines ... some have been around since the 50s when i am guessing we knew a fraction of what we do now with testing them. Yet the vast majority of people vaccinated are just fine. There will always be a tiny number who have a reaction. Some of these diseases are horrific. I for one am very grateful to the scientists who developed these vaccines, that smallpox has been eradicated world wide and no longer needs to be vaccinated against because enough people took the vaccine.

I will hopefully soon get the covid vaccine. I'm not at all worried about it. I want to protect others. Its not just about me me me me me.

 

[electronictonic]

even if the vaccine is not mandatory it will get to the stage if you dont have it you wont be accepted in society,no covid passport no entry in public places will be as simple as that,dont get me wrong in not a fan of the vaccine im 52 but feel that life will be very very restricted if one doesnt have it,they took our freedoms and do not want to give it back even with vaccines,this will backfire big time in the near future

 

[cncas2123]

Total bollocks as usual . 11 million vaccines administered, 143 deaths that cannot be attributed directly to the vaccine.
That’s a rate of 0.000001% deaths if they have been caused by the vaccine .
How does that compare to % deaths versus number of people infected by Covid ???
And if you get hit by a bus it’s attributed to Covid if you’ve been tested positive?? Nope, more misinformation as no doctor in his right mind would list Covid as contributing factor on a death certificate if someone died because of a RTA.
But why let fact, truth or evidence get in the way of a conspiracy theory.....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

COVID CONFIRMED KILLS IN THE UK - 115,000

COVID VACCINE CONFIRMED KILLS IN THE UK - ZERO

CONCLUSION - COVID VACCINE IS SCARY AND NOT TO BE TRUSTED, COVID NOT THAT BAD LET'S JUST TAKE A PUNT ON IT

Tune in for tomorrow's episode called 'Why the moon is made of cheese', shortly to be followed by 'Why is the earth is flat and how I can prove it'.

 

[colinsunderland]

trolling again
Sad lives people must live if their daily entertainment is trolling a thread about people dying.

 

[Masquerade67]

Tune in for tomorrow's episode called 'Why the moon is made of cheese', shortly to be followed by 'Why is the earth is flat and how I can prove it'.

You don't need to. "Tradewinds" have got that in their mission statement !!

 

[mack341]

COVID CONFIRMED KILLS IN THE UK - 115,000

COVID VACCINE CONFIRMED KILLS IN THE UK - ZERO

CONCLUSION - COVID VACCINE IS SCARY AND NOT TO BE TRUSTED, COVID NOT THAT BAD LET'S JUST TAKE A PUNT ON IT

Tune in for tomorrow's episode called 'Why the moon is made of cheese', shortly to be followed by 'Why is the earth is flat and how I can prove it'.

It is something like 95% of the dead had a known comorbidity, plus age is the strongest factor to risk, it goes up regardless. The Covid vaccines are unknown in terms of safety data beyond about 10 months, putting aside 'pathogenic priming' and what happens once the antibody levels fall, there are still a lot of unknowns.

My relative so far has had no ill-effects from the oxford one given about 30 hrs ago, which I am very pleased about, if it's going to be forced on all of us eventually, safety must be utmost.

Hopefully even ardent vaccinators like yourself would pause before vaccinating babies and young children or must they also receive the jab in order to protect everybody else?

 

[shadow123]

Managed to get my appointment brought foward, had the pfizer jab tonight, got to,admire the organization.
Little note to the anti vaccers , it really doesnt hurt

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Managed to get my appointment brought foward, had the pfizer jab tonight, got to,admire the organization.
Little note to the anti vaccers , it really doesnt hurt

Yes but 17 years from now you might trip over in the street and bang your head and that will be the vaccine's fault.

Prove it wasn't the vaccine that did it!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hopefully even ardent vaccinators like yourself would pause before vaccinating babies and young children or must they also receive the jab in order to protect everybody else?

Well we do already vaccinate babies and young children against several diseases that are still present and/or a potential danger in society and able to flare up when the immunity level in the population starts to fall, whether or not Covid or its variants fall into that category at some point is yet to be seen.

(We still vaccinate babies against polio, but we haven't had a case of that since 1984 in the UK, however it still exists elsewhere in the world and could be imported, so we vaccinate our entire population against it.)

I'm sure you received several vaccinations yourself mack when you were a baby/child, and like me, you continue to enjoy the health benefits of living in a society where many deadly diseases have been completely eliminated or almost eliminated through vaccination.

I'll mention polio again because the numbers are important, at the time of mass vaccination against polio being introduced in the 1950s, there were fewer than 10,000 cases of polio in the UK per year, and less than 1,000 deaths.

Covid has been killing more than 1,000 people per day in the UK for many days in 2021.

Vaccines have always been, ever since we first invented them, overwhelmingly safe, and the health benefits have always, and continue, to massively outweigh the very, very small risks.

To argue otherwise is to state that black is white, and indeed, that the earth is flat.

 

[Playford7]

Lads treated me for my 40th

 

[mack341]

Well we do already vaccinate babies and young children against several diseases that are still present and/or a potential danger in society and able to flare up when the immunity level in the population starts to fall, whether or not Covid or its variants fall into that category at some point is yet to be seen.

(We still vaccinate babies against polio, but we haven't had a case of that since 1984 in the UK, however it still exists elsewhere in the world and could be imported, so we vaccinate our entire population against it.)

I'm sure you received several vaccinations yourself mack when you were a baby/child, and like me, you continue to enjoy the health benefits of living in a society where many deadly diseases have been completely eliminated or almost eliminated through vaccination.

I'll mention polio again because the numbers are important, at the time of mass vaccination against polio being introduced in the 1950s, there were fewer than 10,000 cases of polio in the UK per year, and less than 1,000 deaths.

Covid has been killing more than 1,000 people per day in the UK for many days in 2021.

Vaccines have always been, ever since we first invented them, overwhelmingly safe, and the health benefits have always, and continue, to massively outweigh the very, very small risks.

To argue otherwise is to state that black is white, and indeed, that the earth is flat.

Funny how big pharma is fined billions, routinely exaggerates the benefit of their drugs while downplaying the side effects, hides data from its trials but it's those damn vaccine sceptics that need smearing.

Polio is contracted via the 'fecal to oral' route so I expect sanitation and basic hygiene also played a part, I can't remember all the childhood vaccines I had, BCG was one, or whether they were for 'deadly' diseases. Something I read the other day was that smallpox is the only disease that has been eliminated through vaccines.

In general terms, all vaccines work the same way: they prime the immune system to recognize and attack a particular pathogen if it shows up in the body in the future. This can be done in a variety of ways: you can generate a vaccine by inactivating the pathogen (as in the injected polio vaccine) or weakening it (as in the measles vaccine), by using only part of it (pertussis), or by combining it with something else that helps it provoke an immune response (pneumococcal vaccine). Whichever method is used, the vaccine primes the immune system to respond quickly to the pathogen if it enters the body in the future.

They are nothing without the immune system that nature gave us, if my immune system can cope with this virus there is no large benefit derived from priming it to do so, and a small risk of adverse effects now or unknown effects later on. [the earth is round]

 

[mack341]

Davis has a degree in molecular science so must know a fair bit, could it be the pharma companies have exaggerated the potential benefit regarding severe cases and the very elderly? [the vaccine is still reliant on the host's immune system remember...and probably more reason why vitamin d and other supplements need to be provided]

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Davis has a degree in molecular science so must know a fair bit, could it be the pharma companies have exaggerated the potential benefit regarding severe cases and the very elderly? [the vaccine is still reliant on the host's immune system remember...and probably more reason why vitamin d and other supplements need to be provided]

It's almost as if elderly people die from other issues but COVID...

All the stats that I have looked at (including the ones from Israel) suggest that the vaccines are having a positive effect on reducing morbidity from COVID in the elderly population.

 

[mack341]

It's almost as if elderly people die from other issues but COVID...

All the stats that I have looked at (including the ones from Israel) suggest that the vaccines are having a positive effect on reducing morbidity from COVID in the elderly population.

I'm presuming a man of davis's standing wouldn't post something flippantly without also first considering the point you have made?

Flu is supposedly down to negligible levels so it won't be that, everyone of advanced age shielding and staying in, so unlikely other viruses. I suppose the mental toll of lockdown and not being able to see relatives, unable to see GP, nhs services restricted etc...will also have added to the death totals.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Davis has a degree in molecular science so must know a fair bit, could it be the pharma companies have exaggerated the potential benefit regarding severe cases and the very elderly? [the vaccine is still reliant on the host's immune system remember...and probably more reason why vitamin d and other supplements need to be provided]

I don't know when and if the elderly people in this case have gotten their 2nd jab yet but it's reported that it takes about 2 weeks after the 2nd jab to have the advertised protection.

 

[mack341]

from the bbc [NB 6 days ago- everything can change rapidly though atm]

French president Emmanuel Macron claimed that it was "quasi-ineffective" for people over 65.
"the early results we have are not encouraging for 60 to 65-year-old people concerning AstraZeneca".

Following Mr Macron's comments, France's Health Authority made an official recommendation on 2 February that the vaccine should not be used for people over 65. It said more studies were needed before it was rolled out to older age groups.
Other European countries have taken a similar position: Germany, Austria, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain and Poland only recommend it for people under 65, and Italy and Belgium for those under 55.

Switzerland - not an EU country - has ruled against approving the vaccine for any age group. The Swiss medical regulator said there was not enough data yet on safety, effectiveness and quality to do so.

---------

Just how many of the vulnerable groups [known comorbidities and age] took part in the vax trials, did they keep the number down because the results might not look as good, or for a different practical reason?

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Just how many of the vulnerable groups [known comorbidities and age] took part in the vax trials, did they keep the number down because the results might not look as good, or for a different practical reason?

Mack, it's impossible to keep people alive artificially. If their co-morbidities are severe then they are at end of life most likely. Unfortunately death will still be a part of life.

The vaccine is there to protect individuals who otherwise would have had years left to live. To stop people from dying before their time, people with manageable conditions etc

 

[mack341]

Mack, it's impossible to keep people alive artificially. If their co-morbidities are severe then they are at end of life most likely. Unfortunately death will still be a part of life.

The vaccine is there to protect individuals who otherwise would have had years left to live. To stop people from dying before their time, people with manageable conditions etc

Okay but is that how the majority of the public have been sold the plan, as it were, which was: we wait in lockdown for the vaccines to protect the vulnerable, but it could end up they receive the least amount of benefit, which goes more to the middle 40-65 group.

I'm sure I read when the trial results first came out, that they hadn't answered the question regarding being able to prevent deaths from covid, but more turning moderate cases into mild.

If deaths don't fall significantly in the 80 group [where the majority of deaths are coming from iirc] then hard to see how the lockdown measures will be lifted soon.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Okay but is that how the majority of the public have been sold the plan, as it were, which was: we wait in lockdown for the vaccines to protect the vulnerable, but it could end up they receive the least amount of benefit, which goes more to the middle 40-65 group.

I'm sure I read when the trial results first came out, that they hadn't answered the question regarding being able to prevent deaths from covid, but more turning moderate cases into mild.

If deaths don't fall significantly in the 80 group [where the majority of deaths are coming from iirc] then hard to see how the lockdown measures will be lifted soon.

In Israel it was quite a significant drop in hospitalisations amongst elderly who had their 2nd vaccination. I think I've showed that statistic in this topic a couple of days, a week max, ago.

I know patience is running thin but please... it's science and not magic.

 

[Steviedoo]

Total bollocks as usual . 11 million vaccines administered, 143 deaths that cannot be attributed directly to the vaccine.
That’s a rate of 0.000001% deaths if they have been caused by the vaccine .
How does that compare to % deaths versus number of people infected by Covid ???
And if you get hit by a bus it’s attributed to Covid if you’ve been tested positive?? Nope, more misinformation as no doctor in his right mind would list Covid as contributing factor on a death certificate if someone died because of a RTA.
But why let fact, truth or evidence get in the way of a conspiracy theory.....

Stop with facts...no one wants to hear this....