Colosseum, Grand Hotel, Vegas7 etc refusing bonus after wagering

paul1 said:
Largeeyes, You're being a little nearsighted.
What the heck? If giving your opinion to a casino,however great,is nearsighted,we might as well shut up. In any business,customers' opinions are very important and they should be heeded if possible to maintain a long-term relationship. Both Largeeyes and Macgyver are trying to help the casino to improve its image unlike a handful of posters who are screaming out of their minds just to get some benefits.
 
paul1 said:
I'm sure the op was not "hurt" by this. Get back in there, give the casino the action they want, and move on with it. I'll stand by my earlier statement. This is one of the best group of casinos in cyberspace and many gamblers just aren't sophisticated enough to know a great deal when they see one.

More wagering may very well "hurt" the op (if by op, you mean player). I agree that the easiest course is to go back and finish the extra WR, but disagree that the player should "get over it" and not make sure that other players don't fall victim to the belief that we should all be psychics.

I'll be looking for any future posts if a casino screws you over by not stating terms explicitly, so that I can tout how wonderful they are (whoever they may be).

Unless this group is the only one you play at ...

EDIT: Just saw this from chuchu59 in another post and it fits this discussion perfectly:

Even great casinos may not be right every time.
 
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Macgyver said:
I'll be looking for any future posts if a casino screws you over by not stating terms explicitly, so that I can tout how wonderful they are (whoever they may be).


Oh for goodness sake. They didn't screw anyone over in this case. And they said they'd fix it. sheesh!

Now I'm just giving my opinion, also, like you, or chuchu59, or anyone else. And it's a pretty good opinion at that. D'ya wanna make money at a good casino that will pay you fast and give you good promos, or what? Well, here y'go. The Vegas VIP Group. :thumbsup:
 
paul1 said:
Oh for goodness sake. They didn't screw anyone over in this case. And they said they'd fix it. sheesh!

Now I'm just giving my opinion, also, like you, or chuchu59, or anyone else. And it's a pretty good opinion at that. D'ya wanna make money at a good casino that will pay you fast and give you good promos, or what? Well, here y'go. The Vegas VIP Group. :thumbsup:

agree with paul here, i play this group fairly often, have never ever had a problem with them, and the double the bonus needed to cash out is a very good idea, because it stops the bonus hunters just making a quick buck, and makes you have at least one big hand of something to withdraw. ref to the terms of doubling counting towards wr, this is not a problem for catwoman, because i know this group will just give her another chance to finish wr off, and give her the bonus anyway....i am a vip at 32 red, but to be very honest here, this group of casinos are not far behind them, or even might be on par with them..........
 
paul1 said:
Oh for goodness sake. They didn't screw anyone over in this case. And they said they'd fix it. sheesh!

Now I'm just giving my opinion, also, like you, or chuchu59, or anyone else. And it's a pretty good opinion at that. D'ya wanna make money at a good casino that will pay you fast and give you good promos, or what? Well, here y'go. The Vegas VIP Group. :thumbsup:

What do you mean they didn't screw anyone over? They've screwed me by 600 by refusing to give the bonus I deposited and wagered for at six of their casinos.

To repeat myself once again, I do NOT have the choice to go back and do the wagering (even if I thought I should, which I dont as I already have by their terms) to get the bonus as the wagering had to be completed by the end of sunday two or three weeks ago.

I also agree that this group has generally been good with me, but does that means its ok to suddenly rip me off by 600? If they did this to you would you still think they were fine?

The only question that needs answering by all this is should a casino be allowed to exclude wagering without having it in their terms and conditions?

This is what this group of casinos has done to me.
 
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Catwoman said:
What do you mean they didn't screw anyone over? They've screwed me by 600 by refusing to give the bonus I deposited and wagered for at six of their casinos.

To repeat myself once again, I do NOT have the choice to go back and do the wagering (even if I thought I should, which I dont as I already have by their terms) to get the bonus as the wagering had to be completed by the end of sunday two or three weeks ago.

I also agree that this group has generally been good with me, but does that means its ok to suddenly rip me off by 600? If they did this to you would you still think they were fine?

The only question that needs answering by all this is should a casino be allowed to exclude wagering without having it in their terms and conditions?

This is what this group of casinos has done to me.


You mean you thought you were getting over by giving them action on a no vig situation, and you're pissed off that it didn't work. Frankly, I don't see why Playtech DOES give credit for the double feature. But that's their business. Yes, it would have been nice to know that Microgaming doesn't do the same. That would have saved you the effort and time you spent trying to be clever. I guess you're new to Microgaming or you would have been up on such matters.

Guess what, I don't blame them for not wanting to GIVE you free money when you took none the worst of it on the action you gave playing the double feature. If you wanna play the game, you've got to give a little to get a little. If you play the game right, this group will give you great bang for your buck. And THEN, they'll pay you fast to boot.

Like I said, just move on with it. I'm sure they'll be sending you more great promos next weekend. Some of the BEST deals on the internet. It's a GOOD group!
 
Paul, are you a casino customer service rep? You seem well-qualified. :)

The guy followed the rules as he understood them, and the casino didn't even let him play out his bonus according to their apparently confusing conditions -- note that the original poster was not the only one who thought double-downs counted.

Once again a casino amazes me in their shortsighted customer service.

How much better would it have been for them to simply let him play out the bonus ON THEIR OWN TERMS, no less... and immediately modify their bonus T&C's to make it explicitly clear for others who might be confused in the future?

Avoid this bad PR, keep a good* customer, and life goes on.



* In my mind, anyone who plays one of their current-style bonuses offers is an awfully good customer for them to have.
 
Dear All,

I have just caught up with all the comments on this thread, and I have to say that all your opinions, comments and constructive input in this is appreciated.

I need to press it on you that the wagering calculations is not regulated or controlled by the casino(s) but by MGS.

In hindsight, and on my recommendation on your behalves, the casino(s) has fixed the issues with regards to explaining the wagering calculations; all be it a matter of too little too late, they feel that they are making an effort to accommodate this matter and avoid future confusion.

Concerning Catwoman finishing the wagering, in fact, since she did not qualify for the promotion, her deposit is a straightforward deal, and she can make a withdrawal at any given time. This should be clear to her, as she has been with the casinos for a period more than three months now.

Catwoman, due to the frustration caused by this promotion, I made a point to NOT allow the casinos in question to send you the same bonus again; by removing you from their mailing list. The fact that you did get it is concerning. I have personally checked that this was implemented and would like to apologise for your inconvenience of having received it again. Could you please let me know which of the casinos use which e-mail address to send this promotion to you?

The operators also instructed me to make sure that you all understand the T & Cs in its entirety with regards to this bonus, and should you wish, I can explain it to you in private, or make it available here.

Again, I would like to reiterate that the casino(s) do not control the calculation of the wagering system; but this matter is being discussed with MGS.

Sirius Please let me know about the mentioned unresolved problems you are referring to. I would dearly wish to sort this matter out with you and the players in question!

TFNY Could you PM me your account number and I will take your case before the casino(s) in question. Please be aware that the Flash Account, and the downloaded Real accounts have separate bonuses altogether, and the one should not be confused with the other. Having said that, I will gladly have a look into this matter should you wish me to!

I would also like to state for the record that, to my knowledge, Paul is not a CS rep for any of the casino(s) in question! :notworthy

Please note that I am literally the go-between for yourselves and the casino(s) in question. None of this information reflect my own personal input, other than the fact that I am privileged to get first-hand information from you guys and by doing so, hoping to improve on the services by/from this group!

Thank you for the positive feedback from some of you, and again, thank you very much for all the constructive input by everyone!

To Summarize:
1 The T & Cs are updated to reflect the wagering Calculations to avoid
future disappointments.
2 Catwoman Can make a withdrawal on her deposit at any given time she
wish since there are no wagering requirements on this
3 This matter is now being discussed with MGS.
4 I extend an invitation to all members and non-members of this board to
allow me, as an intermediary, to work with you in resolving outstanding
matters, or at the very least, extract explanations of actions by the
casino(s) in question!
5 In all sincerity, I wish to apologise on behalf of this group, for the
frustrations caused, but would like to add: In the event that the offers
does not appeal your particular needs or game-play, that you do not
have to take up on them.

Should there be any further comments, questions on general input, I'd be happy to hear from - here, or in private!

Adri Sinclair
 
So to summarize:

1) Even though I met the wagering of the terms and conditions as they stood they are refusing to give me the bonus.

2) They sent the same offer out again last weekend with the EXACT same terms and conditions. There is no mention of doubles in video poker being excluded.

3) They are screwing me out of 600.

P.S Can I ask why you asked for me to be removed from the mailing lists? I did not request this and am quite capable of doing it myself if wished.
 
VegasVIP Lounge said:
Dear All,

I have just caught up with all the comments on this thread, and I have to say that all your opinions, comments and constructive input in this is appreciated.

I need to press it on you that the wagering calculations is not regulated or controlled by the casino(s) but by MGS.

In hindsight, and on my recommendation on your behalves, the casino(s) has fixed the issues with regards to explaining the wagering calculations; all be it a matter of too little too late, they feel that they are making an effort to accommodate this matter and avoid future confusion.

Concerning Catwoman finishing the wagering, in fact, since she did not qualify for the promotion, her deposit is a straightforward deal, and she can make a withdrawal at any given time. This should be clear to her, as she has been with the casinos for a period more than three months now.

Catwoman, due to the frustration caused by this promotion, I made a point to NOT allow the casinos in question to send you the same bonus again; by removing you from their mailing list. The fact that you did get it is concerning. I have personally checked that this was implemented and would like to apologise for your inconvenience of having received it again. Could you please let me know which of the casinos use which e-mail address to send this promotion to you?

The operators also instructed me to make sure that you all understand the T & Cs in its entirety with regards to this bonus, and should you wish, I can explain it to you in private, or make it available here.

Again, I would like to reiterate that the casino(s) do not control the calculation of the wagering system; but this matter is being discussed with MGS.

Sirius Please let me know about the mentioned unresolved problems you are referring to. I would dearly wish to sort this matter out with you and the players in question!

TFNY Could you PM me your account number and I will take your case before the casino(s) in question. Please be aware that the Flash Account, and the downloaded Real accounts have separate bonuses altogether, and the one should not be confused with the other. Having said that, I will gladly have a look into this matter should you wish me to!

I would also like to state for the record that, to my knowledge, Paul is not a CS rep for any of the casino(s) in question! :notworthy

Please note that I am literally the go-between for yourselves and the casino(s) in question. None of this information reflect my own personal input, other than the fact that I am privileged to get first-hand information from you guys and by doing so, hoping to improve on the services by/from this group!

Thank you for the positive feedback from some of you, and again, thank you very much for all the constructive input by everyone!

To Summarize:
1 The T & Cs are updated to reflect the wagering Calculations to avoid
future disappointments.
2 Catwoman Can make a withdrawal on her deposit at any given time she
wish since there are no wagering requirements on this
3 This matter is now being discussed with MGS.
4 I extend an invitation to all members and non-members of this board to
allow me, as an intermediary, to work with you in resolving outstanding
matters, or at the very least, extract explanations of actions by the
casino(s) in question!
5 In all sincerity, I wish to apologise on behalf of this group, for the
frustrations caused, but would like to add: In the event that the offers
does not appeal your particular needs or game-play, that you do not
have to take up on them.

Should there be any further comments, questions on general input, I'd be happy to hear from - here, or in private!

Adri Sinclair

and you should give her the bonus...since she was unaware of the rules and now you have updated them.
 
chalupa said:
Paul, are you a casino customer service rep? You seem well-qualified. :)

The guy followed the rules as he understood them, and the casino didn't even let him play out his bonus according to their apparently confusing conditions -- note that the original poster was not the only one who thought double-downs counted.

Once again a casino amazes me in their shortsighted customer service.

How much better would it have been for them to simply let him play out the bonus ON THEIR OWN TERMS, no less... and immediately modify their bonus T&C's to make it explicitly clear for others who might be confused in the future?

Avoid this bad PR, keep a good* customer, and life goes on.



* In my mind, anyone who plays one of their current-style bonuses offers is an awfully good customer for them to have.


Frankly, Chalupa, I find that online gaming is the best thing since sliced bread. As I've said, this group gives better deals than you'll find in a B&M casino in Vegas. Together with the fact that they are reputable, legit, and pay fast, makes this a slam dunk. We should be thrilled to find a good group like this. If not, then there's always plenty of Black Widow/Grand Banks-types out there if you REALLY like to gamble. Ha! Gamble whether you'll get paid, I mean.

I don't want to be too harsh on the op but if she had been sharp, she wouldn't have automatically assumed that the action on the double feature is counted. Afterall, it IS zero vig, she knows THAT. So she could have asked and/or tested the waters with a smaller investment. It is a reasonable question to ask oneself whether that double feature counts.

But now that we all know it doesn't, just chalk it up and suck it up. And move on. This group is going to give her more good promos very soon. Well, at least they WERE.

Once again, I think this group is trying very hard to treat people well.

And Chalupa, I'm not a casino rep. I'm just another sick gambler who knows a good deal when I see one. And if YOU are not playing at this group, you're missing a good deal there buddy. That's odd, because I think you're one of the sharper gamblers I've seen posting here.
 
Catwoman said:
2) They sent the same offer out again last weekend with the EXACT same terms and conditions. There is no mention of doubles in video poker being excluded.

This is not true. I looked at the terms for all casinos in the group this last weekend from their emails, and they were all updated to include a reference to the "no double-up" rule - though admittedly it's so utterly confused, incorrect, rambling and unclear that a case could almost be made to the effect that it really doesn't add too much clarity to the matter one way or the other.

VVL - if you want a hand with that page so it actually makes sense and is correct, let me know.
 
Dear Catwoman,

Since this matter was not resolved to your satisfaction with regards to this particular bonus, I felt that it would serve no purpose to send it to you again. I thought it would be in bad taste - and practice - to extend this particular offer to you while you are still feeling the matter to be unresolved!

You will receive any other offers from the casino(s) in question, and you will be given an opportunity to make use of this bonus as soon as you are satisfied with the outcome of this matter - which clearly you are not.

The casino(s) do not feel that you have been 'screwed' out of any money, since "the hands that was won went back into the pot, allowing a chance to add that to the wagers anyway" - I really do understand your frustration. I am still curious to find out how they managed to send the offer and by which casino this was - as clearly, they have managed to upset you even further!

Please take the time to look at the terms and conditions page for the promotion(s); you will notice that the word "wager" is highlighted in yellow as a clickable link. Following that link, you will see how the wagering is calculated.

Caruso: Please feel free to make any suggestions with regards to the wording on this - like I've said before, all input is welcomed, and from a player's perspective, it is always a good idea to make sure that EVERYONE involved understand what is being said! You can PM me or post it here, I for one would be happy for any assistance!

Slotchick - It is not within my reach to make a decision such as this. I am STILL in communication with the operators as events unfold and comments made. I cannot force them to see things your way, my way or even Catwoman's way - as they have indicated that their decision is final.

On a personal note: I know that the software differs from one group to the other and although it is not an excuse, I hope that a lesson could be learned from this too on both sides; Not to make assumptions about anything or anyone.

I have really, tried my best to assist in this matter, and will continue to do so for as long as it is required!

Adri Sinclair
 
I'm just another sick gambler who knows a good deal when I see one. And if YOU are not playing at this group, you're missing a good deal there buddy. That's odd, because I think you're one of the sharper gamblers I've seen posting here.
Lol, thanks (I think). :)

I have accounts at all the casinos in this group, and have played there in the past, and have not had any problems with withdrawals, etc. So yes, they are a good deal from that standpoint. And they used to have good bonuses as well.

But their current bonus offers are really pretty bad.

If the restrictive terms fit with your usual pattern of gambling (i.e. if you normally wager a bunch on video poker or various relatively bad games, and don't quit until broke or signficantly ahead), then I guess why not... if you're lucky you'll pocket a small bonus, and if you're additionally lucky you'll not lose your winnings trying to qualify for a cashout.

But for the rest of the possibly less-sick population :), there are much better offers out there with reputable casinos.



And I still think they handled this player's issue poorly. If she has 600 in bonus that she thought she qualified for, it likely means she already lost far more than that in some of the six casinos she played (qualifiying requires wagering 13x the purchased amount, plus winning 20% along the way, i.e. a bunch of wagering and it can't all be the lower-risk tiny flat betting kind).

If they simply gave her the 600 and explained things for the future, she is still required to wager a further 13x that amount or 7800. Lower-variance low-edge games are excluded, so she would likely continue to play video poker (with its high variance).

She would then have had a good chance of losing that 600 in bonuses in ADDITION to being required to risk her existing balance and winnings in the accounts with which she qualified.

So... how much would it have really cost the casino in expected value if they had just coughed up the bonus, and then fixed their terms to be clearer? Maybe 300 in expected value?

Compare that to how much it costs to acquire even ONE new high-stakes customer to replace Catwoman.

And compare that to how much it has cost them in less-than-wonderful PR on this popular message board.

To be sure, this casino group is not alone in their logic-defying behavior. Similar poor handling of legitimate player confusion happens all the time. But I find it baffling.
 
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chalupa said:
And I still think they handled this player's issue poorly. If she has 600 in bonus that she thought she qualified for, it likely means she already lost far more than that in some of the six casinos she played (qualifiying requires wagering 13x the purchased amount, plus winning 20% along the way, i.e. a bunch of wagering and it can't all be the lower-risk tiny flat betting kind).

If they simply gave her the 600 and explained things for the future, she is still required to wager a further 13x that amount or 7800. Lower-variance low-edge games are excluded, so she would likely continue to play video poker (with its high variance).

They've got other promotions, y'know. I've watched them tighten up a little over the years. But not by much. A couple years ago, they frequently didn't require any wagering, just doubling of the bonus. And many promos do not restrict the games you can play. They just want you to have a nice win, or bust out. imho, that's the way it should be played anyway.

Incidentally, variance is your friend.
 
i have sung praises of this group in the past, particularly colosseum casino.

well i'm changing my tune, an event this morning has been quite unsettling to me and i will no longer recommend these casinos to any of my friends

i won't discuss my problem here yet until i have tried to resolve with vegas vip lounge privately, but i highly encourage others to do research and be very wary when playing with them
 
paul1 said:
They've got other promotions, y'know. I've watched them tighten up a little over the years. But not by much. A couple years ago, they frequently didn't require any wagering, just doubling of the bonus. And many promos do not restrict the games you can play. They just want you to have a nice win, or bust out. imho, that's the way it should be played anyway.

Incidentally, variance is your friend.
Actually I would argue variance is not your friend when you had to suffer through it with your own money, only to receive a tiny bonus.

And since you only receive the bonus if you have made a PROFIT, variance is once again not much of a friend because it makes it it more difficult to retain your profit.

If you made a big profit, it's not a friend at all -- you'd probably be better off to bail out before getting the bonus (assuming that's allowed). If you made the minimum profit, it'd be a small friend.

If you got the bonus FIRST (or if they gave it to you even if you suffered a loss), THEN variance is your friend, because you get to leverage the casino's money in an all-or-nothing kind of deal.


And tightened up only a LITTLE in their promos? Here are the
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that I remember. From that link:

In order for you to withdraw the bonus and the winnings gained, you must wager the bonus at least once. Moreover, you must have in your account at least the amount you originally deposited plus double the bonus amount.

All games fulfil the wagering requirements for this promotion.
This promotion does not overlap with any other promotion.

This promotion is only for the members of our mailing list and cannot be passed to others and cannot be posted to forums.
This was even done at least once in conjunction with a 100% Firepay match bonus match. Can you say "all on banker"? Kaaaaching! :)
 
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Dirk Diggler said:
Wow - just spotted this and this is all quite surprising to me. I've been gambling online regularly for over two years and I'd just presumed doubles were counted.

I've also come from the Playtech school of doubling on VP and it has always been included in wagering, and I'm quite amazed MGS is not the same. Afterall it is a wager.

Personally I think in this instance it is unfair to have expected Catwoman to have known that it would not be counted and she should be at least given the chance to complete the wagering - if not given the bonuses. If they do not offer her at least this then I think she's being very badly treated.

I'm a very experinced gambler (30+ RFs) and I've been gambling online for over two years and I didn't have a clue about this, so I don't know a regular gambler would be expected to know

I've also had some problems getting bonuses credited of this group due to wagering issues - and this explains why.
The best guide to the amount wagered is what's recorded in Playcheck. I think wager should mean the amount of your own money that you can lose.
This should also take care of possible hedging bets in games where such things are possible. If you drop 5 quarters into a VP machine, the most you can lose is $1.25, that's you wager. I think Playtech is very generous in counting double-up as wager.

In craps, there are bets that can take several dice rolls to resolve. Should your bets be counted on every roll? What if you remove your bet before it is resolved?
 
In my experience, Craps wagering within Playcheck shows the total wagered for a complete roll (i.e. until you seven-out) within one entry. So if you removed a bet before it was resolved, I would assume it simply doesn't show up.

Note that odds bets DO count as wagering, which seems counterintuitive to the Video Poker double-down situation here (since both wagers are zero house edge).

So if you can find a Microgaming casino that allows craps wagering as part of a bonus, the new Vegas Craps (with 3x odds) is a good bet.

Unfortunately I've only found Craps wagering to (sometimes) count when you must wager a deposit 1x to receive a bonus, and then the bonus requires further non-Craps wagering. If anyone knows of a Microgaming casino that allows Craps wagering for bonus withdrawal requirements I'd be interested to know.
 
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chalupa said:
If anyone knows of a Microgaming casino that allows Craps wagering for bonus withdrawal requirements I'd be interested to know.

Last time I looked, Crazy Vegas, Sun Vegas, Maple, etc. allowed play on craps.

Regarding your other post and your response to my comment about variance being your friend, I think you misundertood what I was getting at.

Variance, is what allows the possibility of long-term advantage gambling to exist in the first place. Whether in casino play, or at the poker tables. That's what I meant. It's your friend.
 
chalupa said:
In my experience, Craps wagering within Playcheck shows the total wagered for a complete roll (i.e. until you seven-out) within one entry. So if you removed a bet before it was resolved, I would assume it simply doesn't show up.

Note that odds bets DO count as wagering, which seems counterintuitive to the Video Poker double-down situation here (since both wagers are zero house edge).
My points that odds bets require you to put additional money on the table, which you can lose, so it is not the same as doubling up.
 
I seriously cannot see how anyone can argue that a double at VP is not a wager. The argument that because it's not from your original stake it isn't a wager is ludicrous in my opinion. As soon as you hit the 3 of Kind, Full House etc then that money is yours, if you choose to gamble it on double up bet then you are making an additional wager. By your reasoning if you deposit $/1 at a casino and win a /$1000 jackpot on a slot then any wagering you do after this is not wagering, as it's not from your original stake.

Here's the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary's definition of a wager:

an amount of money that you risk in the hope of winning more, by trying to guess something uncertain, or the agreement that you make to take this risk; a bet:

Seeing as you are risking whatever amount you've just won on the the hand of video poker there is no doubt to me that it is a wager.

VegasVIP Lounge - if that is really the casino's final decision then they are showing extremly poor decision skills IMO.

The terms of the offer did not exclude doubles at VP at the time and by not even giving the player the chance to go back and finish the wagering requirement you are showing a complete lack of flexibility and a willingness to rip off players when they follow your T&Cs.

All good casinos side with the player when there is any doubt. By not doing this you are showing to the gambling community that you aren't completely trustworthy.
 
Doubling is a wager, no two ways about it - the only difference is that you risk what remains of a previous bet.

All I am saying at the moment is that Microgaming does not currently track doubling so it is not possible for Microgaming operators to do anything about it.
 
Dirk Diggler said:
...All good casinos side with the player when there is any doubt. By not doing this you are showing to the gambling community that you aren't completely trustworthy.
Hey Dirk, you need to reread the thread. This has absolutely nothing to do with trust, it's about how Microgaming records what is a wager, and what is not a wager. MG's explanation is posted earlier and does not consider doubling part of the wagering - again this has been mentioned a number of times.

And just a side note: I have been playing online for nearly seven years now. I rarely ever take bonuses - even sign up bonuses and I have never ever had a problem!

Some of you should think about that long and hard. :D
 
I hate to disagree with the Site God (I fear lightning :)) but this has EVERYTHING to do with trust... specifically whether the player can trust the casino to stand behind their T&Cs.

The T&Cs as written could be interpreted by a reasonable person to include double-down as a wager (and they were in fact were interpreted that way, by at least a couple of seemingly reasonable and intelligent posters here).


A side note FYI... the "Gamble" feature found on certain of the Micrograming slot machines (directly analogous to the Video Poker double down) IS included in the Playcheck transactions as a wager. As are Craps true-odds bets as previously mentioned.

So it would appear that Video Poker double-down is the ONLY zero-house-edge bet that is not treated as a wager.

Makes sense... er, right? :)
 
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