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Colosseum, Grand Hotel, Vegas7 etc refusing bonus after wagering

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by Catwoman, Apr 22, 2005.

    Apr 22, 2005
  1. Catwoman

    Catwoman Banned - violation of 1.10 (player fraud) and 2.3

    Location:
    Leeds
    A couple of weeks ago this group of casinos sent me a bonus offer at six of their casinos I am a member of. To get the bonus I had to wager my deposit a certain number of times and have won 20% more than I deposited or lost my full deposit.

    I took them up at all six but now they are refusing to give me the bonus at any of the casinos claiming I did not meet the wagering. What it all comes down to is that I included doubles in video poker as wagering, but they say it is not included so I therefore fall short.

    This is ridiculous to me, a double in video poker is clearly a wager. You even get comp points for them at Playtech casinos and it is clearly a stake.

    The rep stated that 'extended bets' on the same hand do not count as wagering. That would mean that doubles and splits etc at blackjack would not count as wagering which we all know is not the case.

    At no points in the terms of the offer does it state doubles or 'extended bets' do not count towards the wagering.

    What are other people's thoughts on this?
     
  2. Apr 22, 2005
  3. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    Doubles have never been included in wagering. Part of the reason for this is that Microgaming's Playcheck system does not record this information - only the end result. So no Microgaming casino can even see this value, let alone calculate this towards wagering requirements.

    Having said that, I would agree that doubling should be counted. It's just not possible at the moment.
     
  4. Apr 22, 2005
  5. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Here is an explanation given to me from the casino group - and it makes sense:

    "Wagers" come from your pot - your balance - it is your initial bet. If you double in VP, you are not increasing your wager but you are betting your winnings. However, due to the fact that your winnings are added to the pot, you do get a chance to make that count towards the wagering, it is just a longer process.

    At the same time, losses are not subtracted. If you loose your wagered hand, it is not subtracted from the pot, but is added to your wagering efforts.


    I would just go back and complete the wagering without doubling.
     
  6. Apr 22, 2005
  7. VegasVIP Lounge

    VegasVIP Lounge Dormant Account

    Occupation:
    Support Representative
    Location:
    UK
    Dear Catwoman & Everyone Else,

    Please note that as a result of extensive discussions on this matter with all parties involved, all the casinos in question has updated the T & Cs pages to explain how the wagering is calculated - acting upon my recommendation.

    Catwoman - I do understand your frustration, as I have said to you before, and I hope you can find it within yourself not to judge any of these establishments based on this matter alone!

    I wish to invite anyone to participate in this discussion - which I will be following personally in the hope to find an amicable understanding to this.

    I do welcome any input from the players, as ultimately, you are the business, and any constructive input is valued by the operators!

    Adri Sinclair
     
  8. Apr 22, 2005
  9. Catwoman

    Catwoman Banned - violation of 1.10 (player fraud) and 2.3

    Location:
    Leeds
    The point is the casinos did not exclude doubles on video poker from being included in their terms for the offer.

    They are a wager whichever way you look at. If I risk 75 credits on a higher or lower bet, then I have clearly wagered 75 credits no matter whether they've come from my pot or my winnings from the hand.

    There is no way I can be expected to know that it does not count towards wagering, as I said Playtech counts it so how on earth can I be expected to know that Microgaming doesn't without being told?

    By the way Bryan, the wagering needed to be completed by a date before the bonuses were even given so I'm not able to complete the wagering even if I thought I should.
     
  10. Apr 22, 2005
  11. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    it makes sense to me that they wouldn't. They do not make any money on the double, the odds are evens and the bet pays evens.

    But is undeniably a wager, and if they don't make it clear they should let you complete the wagering, even though the time has expired.

    It does depend on the software, but I would personally assume it is *not* counted. Usually you can see either explicitly or from comp points, but if not I would always check with the casino to confirm things.
     
  12. Apr 22, 2005
  13. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    To me,this looks like a genuine claim for a bonus. Players cannot be expected to know that doubles do not count towards wagering especially since they would have listed excluded games and if you dont say you cannot double that's it. There is a risk involved and doubling seems to be either betting or big or small in sic bo,red or black in roulette and so on. The right thing for the casino to do now is give the bonus and amend the terms and Conditions immediately. After all,the bonus has to be wagered x times before withdrawal. And yes,remember not to wager the bonus on doubles.
     
  14. Apr 22, 2005
  15. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    I am not sure about this. When dobling at video poker,do you lose or push if you get the same value card as the dealer. If the former holds true,then they do have a house advantage,similar to WAR and they do make money on it.
     
  16. Apr 22, 2005
  17. Catwoman

    Catwoman Banned - violation of 1.10 (player fraud) and 2.3

    Location:
    Leeds
    The bet is 50-50, you push at ties so there is no house edge.

    It's still a wager though.
     
  18. Apr 22, 2005
  19. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    This group has improved a lot in recent times in my experience. Time was I had no end of hassles with them - gory details omitted. Right now, everything seems to be running smooth as silk. They've also now updated their terms and conditions as a result of this thread - that's a creditably fast response.

    Neither Microgaming nor Playtech have ever included the VP double up in wagering requirements since there is no house edge.
     
  20. Apr 22, 2005
  21. Catwoman

    Catwoman Banned - violation of 1.10 (player fraud) and 2.3

    Location:
    Leeds
    You're definitely wrong regarding Playtech, I've won on a number of occasions playing with bonuses and they've always included it and paid me with no problems.

    As stated previously you even get comp points for it.

    Anyway even if they didn't it doesn't take away from the fact that it is a wager that wasn't excluded in the terms and conditions.

    Even spearmaster agrees doubles should be recorded as a wager.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2005
  22. Apr 22, 2005
  23. Catwoman

    Catwoman Banned - violation of 1.10 (player fraud) and 2.3

    Location:
    Leeds
    Also interesting to see that they say they've updated their T&Cs, I've just got exactly the same offer through from them again and I can't see any mention of it whatsoever.


     
  24. Apr 22, 2005
  25. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    Try clicking on "wager", "wagered", "wagers".

    That's news to me about Playtech, but I'll defer to you greater experience.
     
  26. Apr 23, 2005
  27. chalupa

    chalupa Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Loaf
    Location:
    USA
    Playtech casinos do count the double-down, which often makes Video Poker (assuming it isn't excluded) by far your best bet for meeting bonus requirements.

    I think that Microgaming used to also count doubling (a year ago or so), and it showed up in the play history as separate bets. I may be confusing that with something else... but it definitely isn't counted now anywhere that I've played a Micrograming site.


    By the way... the bonus offers from this group of casinos (Mini Vegas group I think) are now all horrible, in my opinion. They went to their current onerous terms a few months ago, and as they stand now I think you'd be better off playing with no bonus at all. Too bad, as they used to have some good offers.

    For better regularly-offered Microgaming bonuses, try Spin Palace and Ruby Fortune.
     
  28. Apr 23, 2005
  29. tfny

    tfny Dormant account

    Occupation:
    homemaker
    Location:
    oh
    I was also refused a bonus, but for a different reason at vegasslot. I signed up for the free 15.00 under the flash casino. Received that, a month or two later I downloaded and signed in with my flash account(thinking I would be creating another account if I didn't) and made a 50.00 deposit expecting to receive the 100% match. I called when I never received the bonus and they stated I had to open a real account on the download version to qualify for the bonus. Isn't the flash casino a real account? I also called cs to confirm that I would be eligible for the bonus since I had an account for awhile before I deposited and they assured me I was eligible. They made no mention of having to create another account.
     
  30. Apr 23, 2005
  31. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    To the best of my now dated knowledge regarding Playcheck, it has never recorded doubles as bets.

    What Meister posted from the T&Cs also makes some sense - but doubling my winnings is exactly the same as if I won $100 at blackjack, and put that $100 right back into the next hand, except that the house has a slight edge here.

    I guess we're in kind of a strange bind here - but I am not really in favor of counting doubles in this particular instance since it is impractical to do so and has not been done in the past - and this question has been asked before. But I also believe Catwoman has a reasonable point regarding whether or not doubles should be counted.

    So, to clarify my position - at present it is not practical to count doubling at Microgaming casinos. I will urge them to find a way to make this possible, but it may take some time as I am not sure how complicated this will be.

    But in this particular case I would side with the casino because it is following the standard procedure followed by all Microgaming casinos without exception, and they are not being prejudiced in this decision.
     
  32. Apr 23, 2005
  33. Dirk Diggler

    Dirk Diggler Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Company Secretary
    Location:
    UK
    Wow - just spotted this and this is all quite surprising to me. I've been gambling online regularly for over two years and I'd just presumed doubles were counted.

    I've also come from the Playtech school of doubling on VP and it has always been included in wagering, and I'm quite amazed MGS is not the same. Afterall it is a wager.

    Personally I think in this instance it is unfair to have expected Catwoman to have known that it would not be counted and she should be at least given the chance to complete the wagering - if not given the bonuses. If they do not offer her at least this then I think she's being very badly treated.

    I'm a very experinced gambler (30+ RFs) and I've been gambling online for over two years and I didn't have a clue about this, so I don't know a regular gambler would be expected to know

    I've also had some problems getting bonuses credited of this group due to wagering issues - and this explains why.
     
  34. Apr 23, 2005
  35. paul1

    paul1 Dormant account

    This is one of the best groups of casinos, period. They've got great continuous offers. They pay fast. No hassles. This group is very player-friendly in my opinion. And I think they're forward looking, also. I expect them to be around a long time.

    Regarding the double feature, next time you know better, that's all. Maybe they should have mentioned it in the Terms, but they didn't. Can't think of everything. To me it looks like this group is trying real hard to please players, and earn their respect and their business.

    And I like the way their typical Terms read. They throw it right out there to you. Generally, they want you to double the bonus given, or go broke. That's a pretty fair deal if you ask me. They've only recently increased wagering requirements on some offers. It used to be a lot less. But understandably, the players hit them hard. But I don't see them crying. They're not pulling no crap like some other casinos we all know.

    Let this issue drop, and just move forward. But keep this group on your list of places to play at, for your own benefit. It's a good group. :thumbsup:
     
  36. Apr 23, 2005
  37. Bet it Up

    Bet it Up Dormant account

    Location:
    LA
    Playtech, Wagerlogic, and OddsOn all count doubling. Microgaming and RTG do not. Hmm, what does that say about MG to be lumped with RTG?
     
  38. Apr 23, 2005
  39. largeeyes

    largeeyes Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    North America
    VegasVIP,

    I think your current rules will only lead to a majority of upset players. Given my experience with you, I have been quite pleased with your establishment. However, the requirement to have the bonus+deposit intact at the end of the wagering is one of the most bizarre rules I've ever seen. I am assuming, at the players request, they can give up and just have the bonus removed? Otherwise, without the ability to try to double up on a game where the player has some chance of that, this is a very unplayer friendly bonus.
     

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