Baptism by Fire Chancehill giving it a go

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Seems our affiliate manager was a bit worse at FIFA than what he bragged about, quite a bit of no deposits given out :lolup:

shame on you :) would of been cheaper to put that kettle on, I would of been first to score goals but I not play theses computer games, last time I had a good game was tetris thats how much I play computer games
 
My Experience - excellent

Hi,

Just thought I'd share my experience with this casino.

Fantastic layout and speedy website - I did sign up early when they where not UK licensed but was told very politely on live chat to come back once they are licensed in a few weeks and they would offer a little something. So that's what I did.

They credited 10 spins on spinate Grande or whatever it's called haha, won a couple of quid, but eventually lost it.

Made my first deposit a few weeks back and it was a breathe of fresh air to go onto live chat and speak to fully fluent, patient and kind agent vs some other casinos where the live chat can't wait to sod you off. Had a small problem with a game not loading, agent said one sec, came back error fixed and even offered a few non wager spins for my trouble. That's how you do customer service :)

Since then I've played a good few more deposits , not had any luck but I'd be very confident putting in a withdrawal request with these guys judging from what I've witnessed so far.

Defiantly will be putting more deposits their way.

Oh and the Thunder kick games they have are great. Fruit Warp and Zoom, never played or seen them before but very much enjoyed them.

All round fantastic experience so far, little to no fault. If I had to nit pick it would be that live chat is not 24/7 but that's about it.
 
Withdrawal

Hi,

I made a withdrawal request yesterday, I also uploaded documents at the same time. I got an email asking me to send some ID which i did again, I am awaiting approval of my withdrawal now, Hoping its quick as it is with others. Fingers cross. Overall though I am pretty pleased with the site, the games and the customer service.....and will be even more pleased if my withdrawal goes through in the next day or so...
 
Updates

Hey guys,

Hope you had a great weekend.

Just some small updates:

- WMS and Scientific games are now live on Chance Hill

- On Fridays we will be holding a 3 week competition, where we will be raffling 2 tickets to Ibiza, you will find all of the details in our promo page.

And as always if you need anything, I will be here to help!

Best,

Rafelito
 
You're right mate - it reads like you can't play ANYTHING AT ALL while using a bonus. 0% games are ineligible as are games 'over 0% contribution'.

Therefore you can't play any games at all, except solitaire on your computer while you wait for the end of the universe.

In simple English it's f*cking ridiculous.

Haha.... brilliant :-)
 
Signed up here early hours on tuesday - clicked the claim 100% bonus button and it linked me straight to the deposit options . Skrill was on there so I used that .. then didn't receive the bonus money . Went to live chat and it wasn't available at that time (was maybe 1am UK time , can't remember exactly) . Just played with the money and lost it . I know , I should have checked that skrill was an eligible option for the deposit bonus but still I think when you click on "Yes give me the 100% bonus" or similar then it should ONLY link you to deposit options that actually will give you the bonus or at least give a warning like "If you deposit with this method you will not receive the bonus.. etc". It was late and only a small deposit so I didn't really care but that was my experience :(
 
Signed up here early hours on tuesday - clicked the claim 100% bonus button and it linked me straight to the deposit options . Skrill was on there so I used that .. then didn't receive the bonus money . Went to live chat and it wasn't available at that time (was maybe 1am UK time , can't remember exactly) . Just played with the money and lost it . I know , I should have checked that skrill was an eligible option for the deposit bonus but still I think when you click on "Yes give me the 100% bonus" or similar then it should ONLY link you to deposit options that actually will give you the bonus or at least give a warning like "If you deposit with this method you will not receive the bonus.. etc". It was late and only a small deposit so I didn't really care but that was my experience :(

Its simple, If they cannot remove the option which really should not be a problem than add a note,

I must admit I have just looked and found the rule easier, But why is it under the reload bonus? when above the reload bonus terms it states A minimum deposit of €20 (20chf, $25, £20, 200kr) is required to claim any deposit or reload bonus

Deposit Or reload bonus (Deposit or) being the question here, Where are the rules for the deposits or? Yes the rules are there for the reload but I am sure most sites have a slight different rule for first deposit
 
Hey guys,

Hope you had a great weekend.

Just some small updates:

- WMS and Scientific games are now live on Chance Hill

Oops looks like when you added the WMS games you forgot to counter the Super Monopoly Money loophole and one online forum's members clocked it pretty quickly and started wagering their 1st deposit bonuses on it. Your live chat operators were not best pleased - and neither are they too well trained given their responses:

"I can actually say I hate you"
"It's people like you who are ruining this industry"
"I find it hard to be nice to a guy who is clearly fraudulent and abusing the casino love"
"Your account is suspect of bonus abuse.it seems like you followed the classic pattern of 100GBP deposit on first 100% reload deposit, played exclusively Super Monopoly Money to take advantage of the bonus round special to that game. On top of this, this was performed at the exact same time as 18 other users who played the exact same game with the exact same bet size."
"ah so you came from Google, that will narrow it down for our team of investigators". - Yes....that narrowed it down to just several billion Web sites available via google

Less amusing and rather a concern was a LC operator telling someone that the UKGC requires users to wager deposits before requesting a withdrawal - "said UK gambling commission states that I need to play my deposit - so one spin on a slot and then I can withdraw." - The person did a 1p spin on Starburst to "comply with UK Gambling Commission regulations
 
I don't understand wamphyri.

Were you one of those guys who got caught out, or is that just taken from different chat's that's been posted somewhere in a forum we don't know about?
It's not smart posting something just out of the air like that. Someone said to someone that someone said....
 
Oops looks like when you added the WMS games you forgot to counter the Super Monopoly Money loophole and one online forum's members clocked it pretty quickly and started wagering their 1st deposit bonuses on it. Your live chat operators were not best pleased - and neither are they too well trained given their responses:

"I can actually say I hate you"
"It's people like you who are ruining this industry"
"I find it hard to be nice to a guy who is clearly fraudulent and abusing the casino love"
"Your account is suspect of bonus abuse.it seems like you followed the classic pattern of 100GBP deposit on first 100% reload deposit, played exclusively Super Monopoly Money to take advantage of the bonus round special to that game. On top of this, this was performed at the exact same time as 18 other users who played the exact same game with the exact same bet size."
"ah so you came from Google, that will narrow it down for our team of investigators". - Yes....that narrowed it down to just several billion Web sites available via google

Less amusing and rather a concern was a LC operator telling someone that the UKGC requires users to wager deposits before requesting a withdrawal - "said UK gambling commission states that I need to play my deposit - so one spin on a slot and then I can withdraw." - The person did a 1p spin on Starburst to "comply with UK Gambling Commission regulations

Ha. It appears that one person may have got away with it but they had to tell others and their organised sting got them stung :lolup:
 
I don't understand wamphyri.

Were you one of those guys who got caught out, or is that just taken from different chat's that's been posted somewhere in a forum we don't know about?
It's not smart posting something just out of the air like that. Someone said to someone that someone said....

No I did not get caught out.
 
Oops looks like when you added the WMS games you forgot to counter the Super Monopoly Money loophole and one online forum's members clocked it pretty quickly and started wagering their 1st deposit bonuses on it. Your live chat operators were not best pleased - and neither are they too well trained given their responses:

"I can actually say I hate you"
"It's people like you who are ruining this industry"
"I find it hard to be nice to a guy who is clearly fraudulent and abusing the casino love"
"Your account is suspect of bonus abuse.it seems like you followed the classic pattern of 100GBP deposit on first 100% reload deposit, played exclusively Super Monopoly Money to take advantage of the bonus round special to that game. On top of this, this was performed at the exact same time as 18 other users who played the exact same game with the exact same bet size."
"ah so you came from Google, that will narrow it down for our team of investigators". - Yes....that narrowed it down to just several billion Web sites available via google

Less amusing and rather a concern was a LC operator telling someone that the UKGC requires users to wager deposits before requesting a withdrawal - "said UK gambling commission states that I need to play my deposit - so one spin on a slot and then I can withdraw." - The person did a 1p spin on Starburst to "comply with UK Gambling Commission regulations

Can you post a screenshot of those chats or a link to where it was said?
If they are accurate it isn't very professional.
 
No I did not get caught out.

So you're just posting rumours you've heard or read somewhere without a reason for doing it?

I think it's sad that people are reading things at other forums and then bring the gossip here in fragments.

Obviously the casino made a mistake. They just have to pay the players, close their accounts and change the rules so it won't happen again.
What support have said is probably true but it's still in fragments and we don't know.
 
Can you post a screenshot of those chats or a link to where it was said?
If they are accurate it isn't very professional.

Its made up, Sometimes I read stuff and think are they talking real or bullshit,I think All that may have been stated but in a sentence and they have just chop shopped it, The bits that stand out,

Example

"I can actually say I hate you"

They may have stated we :do not like the abusers on our site:
 
So you're just posting rumours you've heard or read somewhere without a reason for doing it?

I think it's sad that people are reading things at other forums and then bring the gossip here in fragments.

Obviously the casino made a mistake. They just have to pay the players, close their accounts and change the rules so it won't happen again.
What support have said is probably true but it's still in fragments and we don't know.

Nope these are most definitely not rumours but believe what you will.
 
Its made up, Sometimes I read stuff and think are they talking real or bullshit,I think All that may have been stated but in a sentence and they have just chop shopped it, The bits that stand out,

Example

"I can actually say I hate you"

They may have stated we :do not like the abusers on our site:

I can assure you it is not made up though the forum is a subscription only one & I am not sure if I am allowed to discuss other forums here. Feel free to PM me and am happy to message back with screengrabs of the for all you non-believers.
 
Oops looks like when you added the WMS games you forgot to counter the Super Monopoly Money loophole and one online forum's members clocked it pretty quickly and started wagering their 1st deposit bonuses on it.

Players exploiting things like this is exactly why Terms get longer and more convoluted and wagering requirements become unreasonable. If I was in Customer Service I'd be pissed off too.
 
Oops looks like when you added the WMS games you forgot to counter the Super Monopoly Money loophole and one online forum's members clocked it pretty quickly and started wagering their 1st deposit bonuses on it. Your live chat operators were not best pleased - and neither are they too well trained given their responses:

"I can actually say I hate you"
"It's people like you who are ruining this industry"
"I find it hard to be nice to a guy who is clearly fraudulent and abusing the casino love"
"Your account is suspect of bonus abuse.it seems like you followed the classic pattern of 100GBP deposit on first 100% reload deposit, played exclusively Super Monopoly Money to take advantage of the bonus round special to that game. On top of this, this was performed at the exact same time as 18 other users who played the exact same game with the exact same bet size."
"ah so you came from Google, that will narrow it down for our team of investigators". - Yes....that narrowed it down to just several billion Web sites available via google

Less amusing and rather a concern was a LC operator telling someone that the UKGC requires users to wager deposits before requesting a withdrawal - "said UK gambling commission states that I need to play my deposit - so one spin on a slot and then I can withdraw." - The person did a 1p spin on Starburst to "comply with UK Gambling Commission regulations

Hello,

Just checked the chat history, seems you might be exaggerating a bit, it also seems the conversation you are referring to is just one in specific.

Any how I do not believe it is very smart to brag about abusing bonuses, you are just making it worse for people that actually play it honestly.

P.S. add me to your sign up only forum, would love to be part of that.

Best,

Rafelito
 
Players exploiting things like this is exactly why Terms get longer and more convoluted and wagering requirements become unreasonable. If I was in Customer Service I'd be pissed off too.

Granted though a couple of people had their withdrawals returned as bonus funds with wagering attached and have completed the wagering legimitaly with £1k+ and £2k+ balances & have now had their winnings confiscated. I have pointed them to this forum/thread/Casino rep as I am sure Raphael will be able to explain the reasoning behind Chanchill doing this.
 
Granted though a couple of people had their withdrawals returned as bonus funds with wagering attached and have completed the wagering legimitaly with £1k+ and £2k+ balances & have now had their winnings confiscated. I have pointed them to this forum/thread/Casino rep as I am sure Raphael will be able to explain the reasoning behind Chanchill doing this.

Hello Wamphyri,

Just amazes me how openly you guys are admitting to being organised. You clearly have details about all of the fraud that is occurring at Chance Hill casino. Syndicate play is also against our terms.

Not much mire I may add here.

Best,

P.S. Are you stating before it was not legitimate?

Rafelito
 
Granted though a couple of people had their withdrawals returned as bonus funds with wagering attached and have completed the wagering legimitaly with £1k+ and £2k+ balances & have now had their winnings confiscated. I have pointed them to this forum/thread/Casino rep as I am sure Raphael will be able to explain the reasoning behind Chanchill doing this.

Well as Rafelito has replied and you seemed to ignore his post, and suggested thats not what was said, why not post the screenshots of the live chat. Not sure what the rules are on linking to another forum, but certainly screenshots of a chat will be fine as its regularly done on here.
 
My withdrawal has been cancelled twice with them now - I'm the person who was told by one of their chat representatives: "due to gambling commission requirements you have to wager your deposit" and followed with "You have to play the money deposited at least once" they then went on to say that if I "play once" I could withdraw my deposit. I played a 1p spin on Starburst and then attempted to withdraw.
I have waited days for the withdrawal to go through and have had various verification emails which I have complied to and have now had my withdrawal cancelled again???
 
Hello Wamphyri,

Just amazes me how openly you guys are admitting to being organised. You clearly have details about all of the fraud that is occurring at Chance Hill casino. Syndicate play is also against our terms.

Not much mire I may add here.

Best,

P.S. Are you stating before it was not legitimate?

Rafelito

Not a syndicate at all, merely a discussion forum like this one.

Also you may want to read up on the recent IBAS class action ruling against GALA Casino who denied winnings from players who took advantage of the Castle Builder loophole and had the appeal ruled in their favour with IBAS citing that it was basically the casino's problem if they had not 'plugged' a loophole that allowed their customers to circumvent their wagering requirements. Indicating this is not fraud, as you seem to think, at all. Casino T&C neither superceed the regulator's rules nor the law I am afraid.
 
Not a syndicate at all, merely a discussion forum like this one.

Also you may want to read up on the recent IBAS class action ruling against GALA Casino who denied winnings from players who took advantage of the Castle Builder loophole and had the appeal ruled in their favour with IBAS citing that it was basically the casino's problem if they had not 'plugged' a loophole that allowed their customers to circumvent their wagering requirements. Indicating this is not fraud, as you seem to think, at all. Casino T&C neither superceed the regulator's rules nor the law I am afraid.


Dear Wamphyri,

It seems what the people from your "discussion forum" forgot to check was the following term:

Bonus abuse.
Chance Hill management reserves the right to void any bonuses and/or winnings obtained by fraudulent behaviour.
Delaying any game round in any game, including free spins features and bonus features, to a later time when you have no more wagering requirement and/or performing new deposit(s) while having free spins features or bonus features still available in a game is prohibited.

I hope this helps clear things for you.

Best,

Rafelito
 
Also you may want to read up on the recent IBAS class action ruling against GALA Casino who denied winnings from players who took advantage of the Castle Builder loophole and had the appeal ruled in their favour with IBAS citing that it was basically the casino's problem if they had not 'plugged' a loophole that allowed their customers to circumvent their wagering requirements. Indicating this is not fraud, as you seem to think, at all. Casino T&C neither superceed the regulator's rules nor the law I am afraid.

Do you have a link to that?
 
Dear Wamphyri,

It seems what the people from your "discussion forum" forgot to check was the following term:

Bonus abuse.
Chance Hill management reserves the right to void any bonuses and/or winnings obtained by fraudulent behaviour.
Delaying any game round in any game, including free spins features and bonus features, to a later time when you have no more wagering requirement and/or performing new deposit(s) while having free spins features or bonus features still available in a game is prohibited.

I hope this helps clear things for you.

Best,

Rafelito

Clear as day, I have no issue with that, nor does anyone who got caught up trying to do the loophole - it's a fair cop.

My issue is that your support has returned people's withdrawals and told them to complete the wagering (at 45x which is more than the orignal 35x of your 1st deposit bonus offer) - fair enough adding another 10x as punishment for trying it on. However then when they have legitimately completed the, larger, wagering requirments as instructed and ended up with a sizeable profit they have had this taken off them because you simply don't want to pay out.

You have form for this as posted previously in this thread referring to your customer in Cyprus from whom you withheld over £20k of legitimate winnings.

Ultimately this smacks of a casino who is quite happy to take people's money but when anyone wins a decent amount and tried to withdraw you hide behind one T&C or another to get out of having to stump up to your responsibilities.

(For the record I have no personal axe to grind as I am not an injured party here)
 
Do you have a link to that?

I can't find it quickly at the moment but I did keep a transcript, will have a look around the IBAS website to see if they make their judgments public record later:

Edit - Apparently IBAS do not publicly publish their cases/rulings

Full Verdict

Several Gala Casino customers complain that the company have refused to pay them winnings they had accpaed through playing Castle Builder and in addition have retained the deposits which generated those winnings. The company have told them they were entitled to do this because they believed they had been guilty of bonus abuse.

The customers disagree with that accusation and make the point that they had won the disputed funds by using 'real' money, not the deposit used to activate a bonus they had previously accepted or the bonus itself. The bonus was for 400% of a first deposit up to €400.

The Panel see many cases involving bonuses and the term 'bonus abuse' usually applies to situations where a customer tries to obtain more than one bonus by opening multiple accounts by using different identities or fails to comply with the terms and conditions attached to the bonus.

Gala argue that this case should also be considered bonus abuse as though the customers did not open multiple accounts and had complied with the bonus terms and conditions they had nonetheless used the bonus to exploit the methodology of the game to their advantage. Gala have not argued that the game malfunctioned.

Gala have explained that the object of the game was to build a castle and as the player progresses with the building process so do the potential winnings. The game also had a memory so the customer's progress was stored across multiple sessions.

Gala therefore argue that a player using bonus funds to build the castle was exploiting a flaw in the game in that it enabled them to reach a higher levels of the game using bonus funds rather than their own money before returning to take advantage of those higher levels with real money.

Gala have also said that they believed the customer was one of a group who had joined their site simply to exploit the flaw in the game and thus they were not genuine players.

Gala have also acknowledged that Castle Builder should have been excluded from the games for which bonus funds could be used and say once they realised how customers could benefit from the game's design they took that action.

Gala have also stated that if there had been an isolated case of a customer profiting from playing Castle Builder by using bonus funds to advance through the game stages they would have paid out winnings and deposits but allege 'this is an organised attempt to defraud the company. '

10 Gala have quoted their terms and conditions which deal with collusion, cheating and obtaining an unfair advantage.

Paragraph 7 oftheir promotional terms and conditions states: 'Participants whether individually or acting in a group, will be found to be in breach of these and promotional specific terms if the promoter at its sole discretion has reason to believe that a promotion has been abused, manipulated or that irregular, fraudulent, collusive or illegal activity has occurred "

Paragraph 7.1 of their general terms and conditions states: "The following acts ("Prohibited Acts") are expressly prohibited in relation to Your use of the Service and will constitute a material breach of the Terms: Involvement in collusion, match rigging, or cheating ofany kind (including obtaining any unfair advantage);

The Panel are aware that one of the complainants in these cases operates a betting advice website and it would be naive not to assume that many, if not all, of the Castle Builder players were directed to the Gala website by that website.

The Panel do not believe, however, that in itself that would mean there was collusion. The accepted legal definition of collusion is collaboration between two or more people to defraud or gain an unfair advantage over a third party. Simply acting in concert with, or in the same manner as, another person is not of itself collusion.

The Panel also do not believe that Gala have established that the complainants have committed bonus abuse. That would only have occurred if they had not met the bonus terms and conditions or had submitted false identities in order to open multiple accounts.

The Panel therefore believe that this matter can only be decided on whether the use of bonus funds to advance the Castle Builder game to higher levels was obtaining an unfair advantage,

The Panel note that Gala do not dispute that they knowingly included Castle Builder in the list of games for which bonus ftnds could be used. They have not argued that their intention had been to exclude the game but through human error the game was included.

The Panel also note that Gala have acknowledged that even reaching the higher levels did not in itself guarantee customers a win but meant that if they did win their winnings would be higher than if they had not used bonus funds to advance through the game levels.

The question therefore would seem to be why using bonus funds to play Castle Builder would be unfair. The Panel have considered that question carefully and do not see why it would be.

The decision to issue a bonus and to specify the terms and conditions associated with it rests with the operator. It is common practice for operators to exclude games where they do not wish the bonus to be used. Gala did not exclude Castle Builder.

If a game is not excluded then the Panel can see no reason why the use of the bonus would be unfair. Effectively if there is no exclusion then bonus funds have the same standing as 'real' money. If real money was acceptable for play on Castle Builder then in the Panel's opinion so were bonus funds. Gala effectively acknowledge that to be the case when saying that they would have paid if there had been an isolated case of a customer employing the strategy.

The Panel appreciate that, with hindsight, Gala now feel they should have realised how customers could use bonus funds to their advantage when playing Castle Builder but the simple fact is that they didn't. In the Panel's opinion that someone else was clever enough to spot that design flaw does not entitle Gala to void winnings retrospectively.

In the end the Panel can only conclude that Gala knowingly took a business decision to offer a 400% bonus and to allow customers to use that bonus playing Castle Builder. The Panel do not see why customers responding to that offer should be deemed to be accused of cheating or defrauding the company, The Panel would also point out that some who responded to the offer lost money playing the game. The Panel do not understand why Gala would think they were entitled to void winnings but retain the stakes from both winning and losing customers.

The Panel also believe that, as in all commercial activities, the onus was on Gala to have tested the game and to have ensured its operation was acceptable. It was not for the customers to decline to utilise a playing strategy which could be to their benefit because they were uncertain as to whether Gala had tested the game fully or had not realised how the use of bonus funds could benefit customers.

The Panel therefore adjudicate in favour of the customers.
 
Clear as day, I have no issue with that, nor does anyone who got caught up trying to do the loophole - it's a fair cop.

My issue is that your support has returned people's withdrawals and told them to complete the wagering (at 45x which is more than the orignal 35x of your 1st deposit bonus offer) - fair enough adding another 10x as punishment for trying it on. However then when they have legitimately completed the, larger, wagering requirments as instructed and ended up with a sizeable profit they have had this taken off them because you simply don't want to pay out.

You have form for this as posted previously in this thread referring to your customer in Cyprus from whom you withheld over £20k of legitimate winnings.

Ultimately this smacks of a casino who is quite happy to take people's money but when anyone wins a decent amount and tried to withdraw you hide behind one T&C or another to get out of having to stump up to your responsibilities.

(For the record I have no personal axe to grind as I am not an injured party here)


Hello Wamphry,

I am not sure what you mean by 10x more, our original deposit bonus is 45x, so I don't where you are getting your information from, but definitely not from our website.

We have had to review every account for this, quite time consuming by the way, in order to take a decision, depending on their play and breach of our terms we have taken a decision or another.

Best,

Rafelito
 
My withdrawal has been cancelled twice with them now - I'm the person who was told by one of their chat representatives: "due to gambling commission requirements you have to wager your deposit" and followed with "You have to play the money deposited at least once" they then went on to say that if I "play once" I could withdraw my deposit. I played a 1p spin on Starburst and then attempted to withdraw.
I have waited days for the withdrawal to go through and have had various verification emails which I have complied to and have now had my withdrawal cancelled again???

Hello Rafelito,

I have also sent you a PM a couple of days ago but have not received a reply. I did not start a bonus just decide a few hours after depositing that I could not afford to play at that time a try to withdraw but have had quite a few issues as you can see. Mostly from incorrect information provided by your live chat representatives. I have been able to withdraw from other casino sites so why am I having so much of a problem withdrawing from yours?
 
Hello Wamphry,

I am not sure what you mean by 10x more, our original deposit bonus is 45x, so I don't where you are getting your information from, but definitely not from our website.

We have had to review every account for this, quite time consuming by the way, in order to take a decision, depending on their play and breach of our terms we have taken a decision or another.

Best,

Rafelito

My error then, I assumed it was the generally standard 35x wagering.

Some of the people have had their deposits impounded without even firing up the slot and attempting the loophole though is that fair?
 
Hello Rafelito,

I have also sent you a PM a couple of days ago but have not received a reply. I did not start a bonus just decide a few hours after depositing that I could not afford to play at that time a try to withdraw but have had quite a few issues as you can see. I have been able to withdraw from other casino sites so why am I having so much of a problem from withdrawing from yours?


Hey Paradiddleman,

I believe I replied with an explanation.

Best,

Rafelito
 
Hello Wamphry,

I am not sure what you mean by 10x more, our original deposit bonus is 45x, so I don't where you are getting your information from, but definitely not from our website.

We have had to review every account for this, quite time consuming by the way, in order to take a decision, depending on their play and breach of our terms we have taken a decision or another.

Best,

Rafelito

I must say that initially I thought this was a scam and that you were within your rights to take the money, however, you do seem selective in what you are replying to which casts doubt on things, for example,

However then when they have legitimately completed the, larger, wagering requirments as instructed and ended up with a sizeable profit they have had this taken off them because you simply don't want to pay out.

If that is true and they were told they could withdraw after meeting wagering requirements, which part of your T&C's are you relying on to withhold winnings now? You would have done the review before returning the funds as bonus funds obviously, so can't rely on that, and you wouldn't have returned the funds if you thought there was anything that breached your terms either, so can't rely on that.
 
I must say that initially I thought this was a scam and that you were within your rights to take the money, however, you do seem selective in what you are replying to which casts doubt on things, for example,



If that is true and they were told they could withdraw after meeting wagering requirements, which part of your T&C's are you relying on to withhold winnings now? You would have done the review before returning the funds as bonus funds obviously, so can't rely on that, and you wouldn't have returned the funds if you thought there was anything that breached your terms either, so can't rely on that.


Dear Colin,

I am sorry you feel I am being selective in what I reply, I just believe this is not the main issue of this thread and try to be concise in my replies.

But just to clear things, I will explain the issue as much as I am allowed to.

On August 17th, Scientific Games was added to our list of game providers. As you all know, Super Monopoly Money is included within their game list. At this stage, Super Monopoly Money was NOT excluded from bonus wagering. Therefore, the game was available for players to play while wagering their reload bonuses.

On August 18th, at about 17:00, we had over 20 deposits of 100 pounds, all subsequent (meaning that sign up IDs were one straight after the other). Just to illustrate, when the first player signed up, he received number ID 1, player 2 received ID 2. So basically, we had 20 UK players with subsequent IDs 56223, 56224, 56225 (not the real IDs, simply to illustrate). All of them claimed the first welcome bonus of 100% up to 100GBP. In a smaller casino such as ourselves, having over 20 100GBP deposits in such a short span really stands out.

Since Super Monopoly Money was available for wagering, players were able to access it and play it under bonus. Nothing wrong here.

However, we found that most players lost their funds but were all requesting withdrawals. As it is known, SMM allows an accumulative bonus feature which players were delaying. Once their wagering was finished or bonus lost, they spun the wheel, collected the winnings and withdrew. So, in other words, they were turning bonus money into real money without wagering it. This is where the bonus abuse takes place: it is strictly forbidden in our terms: "Delaying any game round in any game, including free spins features and bonus features, to a later time when you have no more wagering requirement and/or performing new deposit(s) while having free spins features or bonus features still available in a game is prohibited." Outdated URL (Invalid)

Therefore, all withdrawals were cancelled. IGC risk team was contacted and, while they investigated, the wheel of spin funds were returned to players with the actual wagering of our welcome bonus, so as to keep bonus money as bonus money until it was wagered into real money. If the IGC team confirmed that this was a group of connected players following a collective bonus abuse strategy, the funds would be removed and non-played deposits returned. It was certainly confirmed.

Over the last few days, most of these players have come to chat. Most of them provide vague answers as to where they found about SSM being eligible for bonuses (one even claimed he typed in welcome bonuses in Google and found us. I wish we had that great SEO!). Some of them have provided the exact same screenshots of our site, which clearly comes to show they are connected.

From our point of view, the case is quite clear. Players who tried to abuse the system and lost their deposit have been banned. Players who deposited and didn't play the bonus wheel have had their deposits refunded (they clearly requested a withdrawal as soon as SSM was removed from the site).

To summarise: thirty 100GBP deposits in a very short time span, with subsequent IDs, with the same screenshots, ONLY playing SSM, delaying the bonus round until wagering was finished and many of them with 3.5GBP bet size. Same attitude on chat.

If you wish to discuss this further, we may also take it on PM.

Best,

Rafelito
 
Dear Colin,

I am sorry you feel I am being selective in what I reply, I just believe this is not the main issue of this thread and try to be concise in my replies.

But just to clear things, I will explain the issue as much as I am allowed to.

On August 17th, Scientific Games was added to our list of game providers. As you all know, Super Monopoly Money is included within their game list. At this stage, Super Monopoly Money was NOT excluded from bonus wagering. Therefore, the game was available for players to play while wagering their reload bonuses.

On August 18th, at about 17:00, we had over 20 deposits of 100 pounds, all subsequent (meaning that sign up IDs were one straight after the other). Just to illustrate, when the first player signed up, he received number ID 1, player 2 received ID 2. So basically, we had 20 UK players with subsequent IDs 56223, 56224, 56225 (not the real IDs, simply to illustrate). All of them claimed the first welcome bonus of 100% up to 100GBP. In a smaller casino such as ourselves, having over 20 100GBP deposits in such a short span really stands out.

Since Super Monopoly Money was available for wagering, players were able to access it and play it under bonus. Nothing wrong here.

However, we found that most players lost their funds but were all requesting withdrawals. As it is known, SMM allows an accumulative bonus feature which players were delaying. Once their wagering was finished or bonus lost, they spun the wheel, collected the winnings and withdrew. So, in other words, they were turning bonus money into real money without wagering it. This is where the bonus abuse takes place: it is strictly forbidden in our terms: "Delaying any game round in any game, including free spins features and bonus features, to a later time when you have no more wagering requirement and/or performing new deposit(s) while having free spins features or bonus features still available in a game is prohibited." Outdated URL (Invalid)

Therefore, all withdrawals were cancelled. IGC risk team was contacted and, while they investigated, the wheel of spin funds were returned to players with the actual wagering of our welcome bonus, so as to keep bonus money as bonus money until it was wagered into real money. If the IGC team confirmed that this was a group of connected players following a collective bonus abuse strategy, the funds would be removed and non-played deposits returned. It was certainly confirmed.

Over the last few days, most of these players have come to chat. Most of them provide vague answers as to where they found about SSM being eligible for bonuses (one even claimed he typed in welcome bonuses in Google and found us. I wish we had that great SEO!). Some of them have provided the exact same screenshots of our site, which clearly comes to show they are connected.

From our point of view, the case is quite clear. Players who tried to abuse the system and lost their deposit have been banned. Players who deposited and didn't play the bonus wheel have had their deposits refunded (they clearly requested a withdrawal as soon as SSM was removed from the site).

To summarise: thirty 100GBP deposits in a very short time span, with subsequent IDs, with the same screenshots, ONLY playing SSM, delaying the bonus round until wagering was finished and many of them with 3.5GBP bet size. Same attitude on chat.

If you wish to discuss this further, we may also take it on PM.

Best,

Rafelito

Thanks for the reply

Just to say, I think it is a valid discussion for the thread as you are asking to be accredited and if you were unfairly withholding funds that would/should be a consideration in if you get it in my view.

You didn't say any of your post above in your initial replies, and, as I said, I did think it was bonus abuse when I first read it, now you have explained I do think it was too.

However, if a customer was told they could withdraw after meeting wagering requirements and weren't told as long as the investigation comes back clear, then in my view they should be paid.

I'm also slightly confused. If you aren't paying because they delayed the bonus rounds until after the wagering, then thats a specific breach of your terms there, so firstly, why return the funds to bonus funds when you didn't have to and why start another investigation when you already had the right to confiscate anyway? That seems to have added confusion and can't see how it would have turned out any differently? Why not just remove the funds straight away as whatever the investigation showed you wouldn't have been paying out would you?
 
Thanks for the reply

Just to say, I think it is a valid discussion for the thread as you are asking to be accredited and if you were unfairly withholding funds that would/should be a consideration in if you get it in my view.

You didn't say any of your post above in your initial replies, and, as I said, I did think it was bonus abuse when I first read it, now you have explained I do think it was too.

However, if a customer was told they could withdraw after meeting wagering requirements and weren't told as long as the investigation comes back clear, then in my view they should be paid.

I'm also slightly confused. If you aren't paying because they delayed the bonus rounds until after the wagering, then thats a specific breach of your terms there, so firstly, why return the funds to bonus funds when you didn't have to and why start another investigation when you already had the right to confiscate anyway? That seems to have added confusion and can't see how it would have turned out any differently? Why not just remove the funds straight away as whatever the investigation showed you wouldn't have been paying out would you?

Hello Colin,

Basically we wanted to keep the original deposit until we made a decision on whether giving the deposits back or forfeiting the whole amount. As these players played their balances down to 0 we came to the conclusion that deposits would not be returned. Maybe this was not the clearest way to do it, but operationally it had to be done this way.

I hope this helps clarify a bit more :)

Best,

Rafelito
 
As it is known, SMM allows an accumulative bonus feature which players were delaying. Once their wagering was finished or bonus lost, they spun the wheel, collected the winnings and withdrew.

Assuming that this description is accurate this case doesn't bare scrutiny when compared to the Gala IBAS ruling previously detailed.

Where the Gala players appear to simply have played Castle Builder with a bonus, lost all their bonus funds, then benefited from the improved payouts available in the latter stages of the game when playing with their own funds, this group appear have been triggering bonus features then presumably exiting the game. This withholds the winnings that will be generated from the bonus play. They then lose the rest of the bonus funds causing the system to reset the wagering requirement to zero. What they've done here is trick the system into believing there are no funds left by withholding winnings. Once the system resets the wagering requirement to zero they can then claim the bonus round winnings and withdraw them as cash.

There's a very significant difference between simply playing bonus funds to advance through a stage game and intentionally creating a false zero to cause the system to incorrectly reset wagering requirements.

TP
 
Assuming that this description is accurate this case doesn't bare scrutiny when compared to the Gala IBAS ruling previously detailed.

Where the Gala players appear to simply have played Castle Builder with a bonus, lost all their bonus funds, then benefited from the improved payouts available in the latter stages of the game when playing with their own funds, this group appear have been triggering bonus features then presumably exiting the game. This withholds the winnings that will be generated from the bonus play. They then lose the rest of the bonus funds causing the system to reset the wagering requirement to zero. What they've done here is trick the system into believing there are no funds left by withholding winnings. Once the system resets the wagering requirement to zero they can then claim the bonus round winnings and withdraw them as cash.

There's a very significant difference between simply playing bonus funds to advance through a stage game and intentionally creating a false zero to cause the system to incorrectly reset wagering requirements.

TP


No it is pretty much excatly the same. The Castle Builder loophole also relied upon the accumulation of funds (from the bonus) in the feature to be cashed out by triggering the feature once the bonus had expired or been cancelled.
 
No it is pretty much excatly the same. The Castle Builder loophole also relied upon the accumulation of funds (from the bonus) in the feature to be cashed out by triggering the feature once the bonus had expired or been cancelled.

That's not what the IBAS report states. If that's the case then I would personally absolutely disagree with the ruling. Fooling the system into believing that there is no balance by not claiming winnings is absolutely creating an 'unfair advantage'. This isn't use of the inherent nature of the game or the bonus, it's manipulation of a specific trigger intended to stop bonus wagering requirements rolling over onto subsequent deposits.

TP
 
I've just spent some time playing Super Monopoly Money and Castle Builder. Both games share a similar quality.

Castle Builder - to trigger the bonus feature you need to collect a certain amount of winning combinations with the 'Resources' symbol. While it may be possible to do this in a single round, more likely is that it will take you several rounds to collect these combination. As such combinations are banked and saved as they're collected. So a player could collect nearly all the required combinations without actually triggering the bonus feature then come back when playing with their own funds (non-bonus) and play to collect the last required Resource wins to trigger the bonus feature.

As this is built into the game I wouldn't view this a creating an artificial zero and would support the IBAS ruling. In this instance the game actively gives you the facility to collect the triggers over time and the bonus has not at this point been won. That's different from actively winning a bonus and forcing delay of the bonus round.

Super Monopoly Money - When you receive a specific Wild symbol on reel five some of your funds are banked at the top of the reels. This money is held separate from your main balance. At any point after you've got some balance in the bank at the top of the reels you can click to activate the bonus feature which will award a multiplier on your banked balance. Alternatively you can continue to spin leaving the funds in the banked balance to accumulate before activating the feature.

The difference between Castle Builder and Super Monopoly Money is that with Castle Builder collection of the triggers does not equate to winning. If you collect less than the required amount to trigger the feature the banked triggers in of themselves have no value. With Super Monopoly Money the moment you have banked balance you have got guaranteed winnings. This is a feature that's built into the game though. You are actively allowed to bank the Bonus Wheel feature funds and I wouldn't consider that to the be an intentional delay of bonus rounds. Otherwise any innocent player who banked for even a spin could be considered to be delaying the bonus round.

Where this impacted wagering requirements however (i.e. banked funds held while a zero account balance resets the WR to zero) the first course of action would be to restore the wrongly zeroed wagering requirement.

After that this specific case would come down to an issue of multi-accounting. I haven't seen the specifics of this case, but I will say that 20 accounts signed up subsequent to each other (assuming that's true) is suspicious and worthy of further investigation. The outcome would ultimately come down to how much supporting evidence there was that the accounts involved were related by more than just chatting on a message board.
 
After that this specific case would come down to an issue of multi-accounting. I haven't seen the specifics of this case, but I will say that 20 accounts signed up subsequent to each other (assuming that's true) is suspicious and worthy of further investigation. The outcome would ultimately come down to how much supporting evidence there was that the accounts involved were related by more than just chatting on a message board.

None of the accounts will have any relation to each other than the owners simply being subscribed to a matched betting website/forum which has a dedicated sub-forum thread for discussion of casino loopholes. The only thing relative to all accounts is that their owners read the post about the SMM loophole being active on Chance Hill's webiste at some point between the post about it being made and Chance Hill rumbling what was going on. I believe this consisted of some 18 separate accounts (accoding to a claim made by a live chap rep at the time), none of which were created by any individual who had any connection with another aside from being a member of the website.
 
None of the accounts will have any relation to each other than the owners simply being subscribed to a matched betting website/forum which has a dedicated sub-forum thread for discussion of casino loopholes. The only thing relative to all accounts is that their owners read the post about the SMM loophole being active on Chance Hill's webiste at some point between the post about it being made and Chance Hill rumbling what was going on. I believe this consisted of some 18 separate accounts (accoding to a claim made by a live chap rep at the time), none of which were created by any individual who had any connection with another aside from being a member of the website.

That's a bold statement to make unless you know each of the account holders personally. Can you say with absolute certainty that none of them are running more than one account?
 
That's a bold statement to make unless you know each of the account holders personally. Can you say with absolute certainty that none of them are running more than one account?

OK then for the sake of pedantry - it is highly unlikely, I would say 99.99% chance that all accounts were unrelated.
 
OK then for the sake of pedantry - it is highly unlikely, I would say 99.99% chance that all accounts were unrelated.

From an independent perspective I'd disagree with that figure. I'm not going to say it's likely, but I'm not going to say it's unlikely either. That number of accounts signed up one after another does suggest connections that are worthy of investigation. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable saying there's only a 0.01% chance that any of these accounts are associated in ways beyond reading the same forum.

Anyway, given the player success with the Gala issue, I'm sure the impacted players will be keen to take their case to IBAS if there's nothing untoward going on.
 
None of the accounts will have any relation to each other than the owners simply being subscribed to a matched betting website/forum which has a dedicated sub-forum thread for discussion of casino loopholes. The only thing relative to all accounts is that their owners read the post about the SMM loophole being active on Chance Hill's webiste at some point between the post about it being made and Chance Hill rumbling what was going on. I believe this consisted of some 18 separate accounts (accoding to a claim made by a live chap rep at the time), none of which were created by any individual who had any connection with another aside from being a member of the website.

So in other words, it could be seen as a syndicate then with the purpose to do over the casino.
 
So in other words, it could be seen as a syndicate then with the purpose to do over the casino.

I'd be VERY wary of that interpretation. At the point where simply having a conversation on a message board with another player is interpreted as syndicate play then essentially every poster on the CM forums is in breach of terms.

I also seem to remember there was an affiliate issue here recently where an aff account of a CM forum member got closed because a player CM forum member signed up through them. The program viewed this as a breach of the 'can't sign-up anyone you know' term in their contract.

Things can get very rocky for everyone very quickly if too harsh an interpretation of this type of term is applied.
 
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