Casino reducing bet limits: opinions wanted?

[Andy Walker]

Thousands (I ended up about 7k up). For the record, I don't often max bet - I have my limits But as I said, when I test, I test playing with big bets (£10+) as I want to test a casino properly, not just with a cursory in-and-out. And this thread proves why. I find the bigger you can afford to play, the more you learn about how they run their business. I know how to manage my budgets and although I am playing to get a big win to test the cash-out process and how they treat bigger bettors, it's important to remember I don't aim to finish "up" (sometimes I do win, but mostly I don't, obviously). Going in with that attitude means it doesn't get emotional, which is where big losses tend to come in.



3,750,000 x linebet. But the odds of hitting it are 1 in 430,208,500,811 spins (that's 1 in 430 BILLION spins!!). It does expose a casino to risk but you should remember that a casino will insure itself against something like that happening anyway, so it shouldn't matter.

Believe it or not but members look upon you as a steadying course, one whiff of the fact that you maybe lose is a shock, horror moment

 

[naththo]

Absolutely ridiculous! They do not need to force limit bet. Its player's right to bet whatever they like, its not casino's right. It is a mistreat against customer. Also I recalled that Intercasino had one or more slot now on low bet limit, now thats ridiculous again! Please take that off that nonsense low bet limit or you are scaring many customer away. That applies to people who are not on bonus.

I am suspecting they have casino fund/budget problem most likely. But they still make a huge profit every 1 second as a turnover each millions spin played around the world.

Everyone seems to agree each other that low limit bet is just plain stupid.

Nathan.

 

[mattsgame]

Hi guys

Interested in your opinion. I was recently testing a Playtech casino who shall remain nameless for now. I lost on my first sessions, kept playing and then finally hit a big one on Great Blue and cashed out. That all went OK so I played twice more: lost once, won once...both decent sums as I test as a VIP to see how they treat bigger players.

A few days later I logged in and the bet limits on the 3 slots I had been playing (Great Blue, Avengers and Fantastic 4) along with some other games had changed. Avengers & Fantastic 4 down from £40+ a spin to 60pence (yes, really!) and Great Blue down from (I forget exactly but around £30) to £7.50.

I was told the casino manager had made the decision but it wasn't specified if it was general so I checked with someone else who played there and their bet limits were still the default ones I first experienced. It's clearly a message they don't want me playing there anymore (although why they would do this when I was a) in a winning position, b) I never take a bonus and c) you always lose long term on slots anyway is a bit odd).

I was interested in other people's opinions on a casino that does this. Bearing in mind it's their business and they have every right to refuse custom, how would it make you feel if it were you? Would you regard this as odd for an accredited casino or not bothered?

Myself, I'm caught in two minds: I feel it's sneaky and reveals something about the way the casino management thinks that makes me uncomfortable but then again, they paid out no problem and I can just go and play elsewhere, so it's not a big issue. Thoughts?

Cheers,

Simmo!

That's a strange business model for V.I.P's and High Rollers. Most casino up the limits for these sorts of players as they usually win in the long run. Maybe they don't have the cash flow for a player like yourself Simmo

 

[Nifty29]

what is more alarming is they can control it at the individual player level.

makes me wonder, can they control which rtp they're serving up to the individual player as well?

So do the playtech casinos have the max-bet rule for bonuses, if casinos can limit the bet size, then they can do it for those that take bonuses so they don't get trapped by the max-bet rule.

maybe there is something more to me just being paranoid about online casinos targeting players.

Every time this bet restriction issue comes up, people draw an incredibly long bow and say that casinos can and do control individual TRTP as well.

The difference between individual bet adjustment and individual TRTP adjustment is HUGE.

Adjusting bets per player has been going on forever. For example, CW have done it as long as I can remember. All they are doing is limiting the "coins" you can spin at once....absolutely NO changes to the actual slot symbols and mechanism...in fact anything internally involved in the generation of results...is required.

Conversely, changing the actual TRTP for winning players involves major changes. I'm not a programmer, by my collective knowledge thus far tells me it's not as easy as "flicking a switch" on a player account.

Common sense also comes in to play. Reducing Simmos bet limits was done to reduce the CASINO exposure to big payouts, and quite possibly to deter him altogether. So why do this if they can just reduce his TRTP to 60%? On a high variance slot it might not even be noticeable in the short term. It would mean that his chances of hitting big would be hugely reduced regardless of what he bets. It also wouldn't immediately piss him off, and he would likely lose a packet....in which case he would leave with his tail between his legs, leaving his cash behind. Which is EXACTLY what the CASINO obviously WANTS. So why do it publicly, obviously and crudely when you could achieve the same or even better result by just cutting his TRTP? Well, you just wouldn't. It's crazy. Now, they won't get a chance to recoup their losses....whereas as they could have fleeced him totally with nobody any the wiser.

Bottom line is if the casinos DID have a personal TRTP switch, they wouldn't NEED to adjust the bet sizes and piss a whole lot of players off in the process.

Another thing to consider is the effect on overall actual RTP across the casino. The slots are designed to pay out for e.g. 95% naturally. Once you start tinkering with individual TRTP, especially for high rollers, there WILL be a noticeable affect on the monthly published figures....unless they're RAISING TRTP on other players, which kind of defeats the purpose.

Sorry,the personal TRTP. conspiracy theory just doesn't hold water IMO.

 

[jetset]

I too think it gives the impression that the operator is scared of a big hit (although some of the tricks pulled in the past by Playtech operators suggest that they might just find some other BS reason to kill a really big win).

I'm not in the GBP 100 a spin league, but I would certainly be resentful at being singled out to have my bet limits cut...and the fact that it appears to have been done in a stealthy fashion would exacerbate the offence this sort of action causes.

I think you're wise to involve the casino rep and see what they have to say - I'm really curious on this now - always good to have a full view of the issue from both sides.

 

[slotplayer]

here you go, from 2006. its 2013

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[mimi26]

Thousands (I ended up about 7k up). For the record, I don't often max bet - I have my limits But as I said, when I test, I test playing with big bets (£10+) as I want to test a casino properly, not just with a cursory in-and-out. And this thread proves why. I find the bigger you can afford to play, the more you learn about how they run their business. I know how to manage my budgets and although I am playing to get a big win to test the cash-out process and how they treat bigger bettors, it's important to remember I don't aim to finish "up" (sometimes I do win, but mostly I don't, obviously). Going in with that attitude means it doesn't get emotional, which is where big losses tend to come in.



3,750,000 x linebet. But the odds of hitting it are 1 in 430,208,500,811 spins (that's 1 in 430 BILLION spins!!). It does expose a casino to risk but you should remember that a casino will insure itself against something like that happening anyway, so it shouldn't matter.

that is not a lot at all is it, (well for an accredited casino anyway) I really cannot get my head around why an accredited casino would do this.

Congrats on the win

 

[67Mustang]

Bet limits and changing RTP

Hi guys,

I am a newbie, welcome to me

Just two quick points I'd like to make on this topic:

1. Casino's adjust bet limits to limit exposure - not other reason. Clever bet limits will be set according to volatility of a game. Whether this is a good or bad idea is up for debate.
2. Yes, land based casinos can change RTP on the fly, but they can NOT change the RNG on the fly (or rather, not use an RNG or a weighted RNG - which is not an RNG at all). Well regulated online casinos will also have a fixed RNG. To change RTP then, the paytable will have to change - something that would quickly be noticed by players, thus unlikely.

Just my 2p.

67M

Edit: or you could change the symbols on the virtual reels I guess.... still think players would "feel" the difference.

 

[Simmo!]

...so large bets greatly enhance your chance of winning the progressive, something paid in full by Playtech, and great exposure for any casino.

Actually the RTP stays the same irrespective fof bet size. Obviously your chances of hitting it increase with max bet, but so do your losses The RTP stays the same (with a 0.99% progressive contribution in this particular case)

Every time this bet restriction issue comes up, people draw an incredibly long bow and say that casinos can and do control individual TRTP as well.

The difference between individual bet adjustment and individual TRTP adjustment is HUGE.

I agree - You can never be 100% sure without knowing the mechanics but I know for a fact the RTP's issued by Playtech to each licencee are fixed for any given game.

I'm not in the GBP 100 a spin league...I think you're wise to involve the casino rep and see what they have to say - I'm really curious on this now - always good to have a full view of the issue from both sides.

Just to be clear, I'm nowhere near that league either but yes, I will ask the rep privately once this thread is played out.

 

[conker]

There have been some very informed guesses, but I suppose the only person that will tell you exactly why it has been done is the casino manager and I doubt they are going to come clean. Unless they realize that they have messed with the wrong guy here!

I join the chorus of other posters who assume that they are running scared after your nose bleed bets!

 

[Simmo!]

Hi guys,

I am a newbie, welcome to me

Just two quick points I'd like to make on this topic:

1. Casino's adjust bet limits to limit exposure - not other reason. Clever bet limits will be set according to volatility of a game. Whether this is a good or bad idea is up for debate.
2. Yes, land based casinos can change RTP on the fly, but they can NOT change the RNG on the fly (or rather, not use an RNG or a weighted RNG - which is not an RNG at all). Well regulated online casinos will also have a fixed RNG. To change RTP then, the paytable will have to change - something that would quickly be noticed by players, thus unlikely.

I am not sure if this is relevant but I'll throw this in at this point too. After my initial sessions, a VIP manager popped up, was very nice and did a very good job at keeping me involved. Since the max bets were changed, not a peep.
Just my 2p.

67M

Edit: or you could change the symbols on the virtual reels I guess.... still think players would "feel" the difference.

Ah we posted simultaneously

Welcome to CM, Mustang. I totally agree with your points. On exposure to risk, yes it is important and in the case of the game Great Blue, several operators have a low max-bet limit. But it seems strange to lower the max-bet for just the odd player and not across the board if that is the reason. And also, setting a meagre 60p for a max-bet on the Marvel slots is more than reducing exposure to risk in my eyes, it is saying, "go away". Which I don't have a problem with myself but it's still odd.

 

[Nifty29]

Hi guys,

I am a newbie, welcome to me

Just two quick points I'd like to make on this topic:

1. Casino's adjust bet limits to limit exposure - not other reason. Clever bet limits will be set according to volatility of a game. Whether this is a good or bad idea is up for debate.
2. Yes, land based casinos can change RTP on the fly, but they can NOT change the RNG on the fly (or rather, not use an RNG or a weighted RNG - which is not an RNG at all). Well regulated online casinos will also have a fixed RNG. To change RTP then, the paytable will have to change - something that would quickly be noticed by players, thus unlikely.

Just my 2p.

67M

Welcome!

1. I agree.

2. Yes they can change the TRTP of the MACHINE....but what is being suggested is that they can do it depending on WHO plays it. It's nonsense. The TRTP can only apply to everyone. For a start, most machines require adjustments to the interior software to change TRTP, so unless they have an attendant at each machine taking names and opening the MACHINE to adjust TRTP each time a new player sits down, it ain't happening. I know that are some in some countries that are all linked centrally which means no actual physical contact with the terminal is required....however the same issue arises regarding how does it KNOW when to change and change back?? The idea gets more and more silly as you go deeper.

Once extra staff costs are factored in, it would be a zero effect at best. The machines naturally do the job of fleecing players without attention, so why do it??

Depending on the software, it is normally unnecessary to change the paytable to change TRTP. Adding or removing symbols is all that's needed to alter the odds.

As I said earlier, if online casinos had this "adjustable personal TRTP" function...and if one has it, they all do...then why worry about bonus WRs or strict terms, or deterring advantage players, or multi accounters or ANY kind of rules and regulations? Why bother with teams of staff analysing play to spot rule breakers? All you need to do is reduce the TRTP for anyone that claims a bonus and make what looks like EV+ into EV- and rake in the suckers? Just identify the smart players and fleece them on the sly by offering 3% comp points and reducing their TRTP to 80%?

If this personal TRTP exists, it is being used in the stupidest possible way, and the casinos are spending huge amounts of money on behind the scenes staff and fraud processes they don't need.

 

[skiny]

If they could lower the TRTP it would really just be a matter of impatience. The casino is going to win in the long run either way all that would do is make them win faster and probably chase the player away in the process. It would be pretty short sighted.

Lowering the bet size lowers the short term risk. The only logical reason would be that they're not in a position to pay out a huge win but then casinos have been known to do things for illogical reasons. In fact lowering your bet size to .6 is basically telling you you're allowed to keep playing but only in fun mode. If Great Blue was set at 7.50, maybe the .6 was an accident. I can understand the casino wanting to lower the short term risk but not chasing the player away.

Maybe the casino is just more comfortable with people betting in the <10 range and someone got carried away lowering the Fantastic Four slot. If that's the case it was probably just risk management with some over zealous clicking... Assuming the FF game was the only one that was lowered to a ridiculous amount.

I'm actually surprised they have to sit and lower the bet size on each individual game. You would think it would be a simple matter of max coins per line across the board.

 

[bsilva028]

IMHO, if it was happened to me, i would stop playing there imediatly

1 thing is a player contact them to reduce the limits and have a better control (asked by the player)

another is the casino reduce only because they want to, without ask 1st by your agreement, thats not good for me.
i put my own limits, if i loose its my responsability, not the casino, if i win, same.

casino should not reduce or increase the bets / deposits limits without ask the player 1st.

 

[Nate]

Simmo,

I take it they don't like your play style. If you increment your bets often on the Marvel Slots, this may be a contributing factor...

When I play the Marvel games, I often end up betting much higher because I like to increment my bets.

Given the change - I would agree with you that they do not welcome your custom and are trying to limit their exposure to an extent.

Vote with your Wallet - I HOPE you made a profit at the very least.

Nate

 

[Simmo!]

Simmo,

I take it they don't like your play style. If you increment your bets often on the Marvel Slots, this may be a contributing factor...

When I play the Marvel games, I often end up betting much higher because I like to increment my bets.

That's pretty much how I play too Nate. I do either 50 or 100 spins on a certain bet size and if I don't hit the feature, I up it a bit. A bit Martingale-y but using increments instead of doubling up.

Kind of why I can't play most of the new Playtech slots because they don't allow it.

 

[mimi26]

Have you pm'd the rep Simmo?

 

[aceking123]

hi simmo . other than casinos not being to exposed ( funds ) the other part may well be they dont like your play style as this could make a very big dent in there overall balance sheet as you could end up hitting a very large win by doing this , what i would ask if you keep upping your bet over time & lose do you continue from the last point of your play 12.50 bet onwards , maybe this is what they dont like , because sooner or later your going to get a feature which pays well , if youve got the ammo your going to hit somewhere along the way.

 

[Simmo!]

Have you pm'd the rep Simmo?

I will have a discussion with them at some point when I know what I want to say

hi simmo . other than casinos not being to exposed ( funds ) the other part may well be they dont like your play style as this could make a very big dent in there overall balance sheet as you could end up hitting a very large win by doing this , what i would ask if you keep upping your bet over time & lose do you continue from the last point of your play 12.50 bet onwards , maybe this is what they dont like , because sooner or later your going to get a feature which pays well , if youve got the ammo your going to hit somewhere along the way.

Yes I agree with what you are saying but in my humble opinion, a casino should be in a position to be able to pay out on any hit which their bet limits open them up to. And as I previously mentioned, they will have insurance for this sort of thing. The chances are incredibly slim of it happening.

I fully get why a casino needs to assess and manage it's exposure to risk sensibly and set bet limits accordingly and I certainly wouldn't be offended if they lowered bet limits on games. The oddity I am exploring here is why they would do that to one player and not across the board and whether that is really a cause for concern or not. I'd never come across it before.

 

[aceking123]

I will have a discussion with them at some point when I know what I want to say



Yes I agree with what you are saying but in my humble opinion, a casino should be in a position to be able to pay out on any hit which their bet limits open them up to. And as I previously mentioned, they will have insurance for this sort of thing. The chances are incredibly slim of it happening.

I fully get why a casino needs to assess and manage it's exposure to risk sensibly and set bet limits accordingly and I certainly wouldn't be offended if they lowered bet limits on games. The oddity I am exploring here is why they would do that to one player and not across the board and whether that is really a cause for concern or not. I'd never come across it before.

other than they may well be very well under funded , if its a new casino maybe there running at bottom rate running costs & someone has overlooked there balance sheets

give us a update on what they say to you when you get chance , i would be interested at least what theyve got to say on the subject )

ive come across it twice only after hitting 5k plus )

 

[mimi26]

Have you stopped playing there for the time being

 

[Simmo!]

Have you stopped playing there for the time being

Yes. In all other aspects they have been very good to be fair but it's neither very productive in a testing capacity nor fun in a personal capacity for me spinning at 60p

 

[Vegasbum]

Wow... I thought all casinos did this and I accepted it , but now I see it is not that comnmon.

As most of you know I often play one line. Well of course sometimes I have huge wins. Many, many casinos reduce my line bet after a few hits. You would not believe how many casinos limit my bets. I was playing at Go Wild and after a couple hits most slots are now at 20 and 40 cents per line for top bet ( 2 cents X 10 or 20 coins). This happens at almost all casinos I play at. They hate my one line betting for large money.

So Simmo you are not alone. I could give you a list of casinos from all platforms that have reduced my bets. There are many casinos I don't plat at because of this.

 

[wobble33]

guys

would not surprise me if this is corals casino. they have treat me terribly since reaching silver vip status a few times now. and also the software is limited to £10 a strip but I think this is for everyone on v/p.

 

[slotplayer]

Wow... I thought all casinos did this and I accepted it , but now I see it is not that comnmon.

As most of you know I often play one line. Well of course sometimes I have huge wins. Many, many casinos reduce my line bet after a few hits. You would not believe how many casinos limit my bets. I was playing at Go Wild and after a couple hits most slots are now at 20 and 40 cents per line for top bet ( 2 cents X 10 or 20 coins). This happens at almost all casinos I play at. They hate my one line betting for large money.

So Simmo you are not alone. I could give you a list of casinos from all platforms that have reduced my bets. There are many casinos I don't plat at because of this.

thats underhanded imo.