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card counting?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by free4all, Oct 10, 2005.

    Oct 10, 2005
  1. free4all

    free4all Banned User

    Occupation:
    asasd
    Location:
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    can you actually beat the landbased casinos with counting cards? or is that just a myth? or do they shuffel to offen for the counting to work?

    Im not asking for any method or anything, just wondered if people still do it.
     
  2. Oct 10, 2005
  3. Bruce Hamilton

    Bruce Hamilton Dormant account

    Occupation:
    What's a job?
    Location:
    USA
    A group of students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology took Vegas casinos for millions by card counting a few years ago, so it is possible but not recommended unless you want to be persona non grata at every land casino in the country.
     
  4. Oct 10, 2005
  5. Ivy29

    Ivy29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Internet Time Waster
    Location:
    Midwest
    card counting

    They've done things like implement continuous shuffle machines to replace the shoes and cut the shoes deeply (penetration) to make it harder for counters. Many people seem to think it's illegal, which it is not, but it's not welcomed.
     
  6. Oct 10, 2005
  7. Bruce Hamilton

    Bruce Hamilton Dormant account

    Occupation:
    What's a job?
    Location:
    USA
    Counters don't count the cards remaining in the shoe. :D
    They memorize face values so they know what cards have already been played on the table. Best way to stop a counter is to shuffle the deck every hand.
     
  8. Oct 10, 2005
  9. bpb

    bpb Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr PABnorogue PABnonaccred

    Location:
    Haverhill
    It's still done.
    It's getting harder.
    It requires a lot of memorization.
    It's boring as hell.
    It requires a huge bankroll.
     
  10. Oct 10, 2005
  11. Ivy29

    Ivy29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Internet Time Waster
    Location:
    Midwest
    Penetration

    That wasn't what I was saying. The way I understand it the more cards played from the decks the better it is for the counters.
     
  12. Oct 12, 2005
  13. dickens1298

    dickens1298 Dormant account

    Location:
    LA, California
    Same group also suffered their share of losses, not to mention several reincarnations.
     
  14. Oct 12, 2005
  15. dickens1298

    dickens1298 Dormant account

    Location:
    LA, California
    You can create a positive expectation game - meaning that you may still be unlucky and lose, but at least the percentages are on your side.

    Most people think that card-counting simply involves figuring out the number of ten-valued cards and aces remaining in the shoe, then altering the wager accordingly. It also involves altering basic strategy; most effective card counters also use a half-deck divisor to better approximate shoes with low penetration.
     
  16. Oct 12, 2005
  17. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    Varying your bets is more important than varying your strategy, although single deck can be beaten by strategy variations. Here are the average hourly loss/win figures from Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong (1994, p. 50). (I am not quite sure how many decks, it could be 4 or 6).

    Flat bet, basic strategy: -$15/hr
    Flat bet, vary strategy with count: -$14/hr
    Vary bet with count, basic strategy: +$12/hr

    It is clear that bet variation is much more important.

    There is another factor, you can also take insurance bets with positive expectation when you are counting.
     
  18. Oct 12, 2005
  19. dickens1298

    dickens1298 Dormant account

    Location:
    LA, California
    Of course one must vary the bet when you card-count, but the most effective strategy involves variations in both wager size and basic strategy. For example, although most would normally double on an 11, a shoe with a very high negative count (meaning fewer tens left) might dictate a hit rather than a double on an 11.

    Most casinos, btw, also have strategems to prevent players from effectively "Wonging" in - eg watching a table and counting as a spectator, then suddenly jumping into the middle of the shoe. Many double deck games, for example, do not allow mid-shoe entry, and the 4-6 deck shoes set a lower max bet for those players (eg a 200 max limit for someone Wonging in vs the table limit of 1000).
     
  20. Oct 12, 2005
  21. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    My point is that you can play a positive expectation game just by varying your bet and playing basic strategy without bothering with index numbers.
     
  22. Oct 13, 2005
  23. dickens1298

    dickens1298 Dormant account

    Location:
    LA, California
    True, but why not utilize every advantage possible?

    To wit, if a player is counting, when should s/he increase his wager? A +4 means far less on a 6-deck shoe than on a double deck...and if the count is far in the negative, would a player still be as apt to double their 11 against a dealer 10?

    Every basis point counts.....
     

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