card counting?

free4all

Banned User
can you actually beat the landbased casinos with counting cards? or is that just a myth? or do they shuffel to offen for the counting to work?

Im not asking for any method or anything, just wondered if people still do it.
 

Bruce Hamilton

Dormant account
A group of students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology took Vegas casinos for millions by card counting a few years ago, so it is possible but not recommended unless you want to be persona non grata at every land casino in the country.
 

Ivy29

Dormant account
card counting

They've done things like implement continuous shuffle machines to replace the shoes and cut the shoes deeply (penetration) to make it harder for counters. Many people seem to think it's illegal, which it is not, but it's not welcomed.
 

Bruce Hamilton

Dormant account
Ivy29 said:
...cut the shoes deeply (penetration) to make it harder for counters.
Counters don't count the cards remaining in the shoe. :D
They memorize face values so they know what cards have already been played on the table. Best way to stop a counter is to shuffle the deck every hand.
 

bpb

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
PABnonaccred
PABnorogue
It's still done.
It's getting harder.
It requires a lot of memorization.
It's boring as hell.
It requires a huge bankroll.
 

Ivy29

Dormant account
Penetration

Bruce Hamilton said:
Counters don't count the cards remaining in the shoe. :D
They memorize face values so they know what cards have already been played on the table. Best way to stop a counter is to shuffle the deck every hand.
That wasn't what I was saying. The way I understand it the more cards played from the decks the better it is for the counters.
 

dickens1298

Dormant account
Bruce Hamilton said:
A group of students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology took Vegas casinos for millions by card counting a few years ago, so it is possible but not recommended unless you want to be persona non grata at every land casino in the country.
Same group also suffered their share of losses, not to mention several reincarnations.
 

dickens1298

Dormant account
free4all said:
can you actually beat the landbased casinos with counting cards? or is that just a myth? or do they shuffel to offen for the counting to work?

Im not asking for any method or anything, just wondered if people still do it.
You can create a positive expectation game - meaning that you may still be unlucky and lose, but at least the percentages are on your side.

Most people think that card-counting simply involves figuring out the number of ten-valued cards and aces remaining in the shoe, then altering the wager accordingly. It also involves altering basic strategy; most effective card counters also use a half-deck divisor to better approximate shoes with low penetration.
 

GrandMaster

Ueber Meister
CAG
Varying your bets is more important than varying your strategy, although single deck can be beaten by strategy variations. Here are the average hourly loss/win figures from Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong (1994, p. 50). (I am not quite sure how many decks, it could be 4 or 6).

Flat bet, basic strategy: -$15/hr
Flat bet, vary strategy with count: -$14/hr
Vary bet with count, basic strategy: +$12/hr

It is clear that bet variation is much more important.

There is another factor, you can also take insurance bets with positive expectation when you are counting.
 

dickens1298

Dormant account
GrandMaster said:
Varying your bets is more important than varying your strategy, although single deck can be beaten by strategy variations. Here are the average hourly loss/win figures from Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong (1994, p. 50). (I am not quite sure how many decks, it could be 4 or 6).

Flat bet, basic strategy: -$15/hr
Flat bet, vary strategy with count: -$14/hr
Vary bet with count, basic strategy: +$12/hr

It is clear that bet variation is much more important.

There is another factor, you can also take insurance bets with positive expectation when you are counting.
Of course one must vary the bet when you card-count, but the most effective strategy involves variations in both wager size and basic strategy. For example, although most would normally double on an 11, a shoe with a very high negative count (meaning fewer tens left) might dictate a hit rather than a double on an 11.

Most casinos, btw, also have strategems to prevent players from effectively "Wonging" in - eg watching a table and counting as a spectator, then suddenly jumping into the middle of the shoe. Many double deck games, for example, do not allow mid-shoe entry, and the 4-6 deck shoes set a lower max bet for those players (eg a 200 max limit for someone Wonging in vs the table limit of 1000).
 

GrandMaster

Ueber Meister
CAG
My point is that you can play a positive expectation game just by varying your bet and playing basic strategy without bothering with index numbers.
 

dickens1298

Dormant account
GrandMaster said:
My point is that you can play a positive expectation game just by varying your bet and playing basic strategy without bothering with index numbers.
True, but why not utilize every advantage possible?

To wit, if a player is counting, when should s/he increase his wager? A +4 means far less on a 6-deck shoe than on a double deck...and if the count is far in the negative, would a player still be as apt to double their 11 against a dealer 10?

Every basis point counts.....
 
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