Canadians to target Kahnawake

[jetset]

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OTTAWA - The federal government said yesterday it is considering new measures to stamp out Internet gaming sites based on a native reserve in Quebec, in a move that could spark conflict between Ottawa and Canada's First Nations ahead of a second national "day of action" this summer.

The government deems the 400 or so poker and sports-betting sites operating from the Kahnawake reserve near Montreal to be illegal, but neither federal not provincial governments have attempted to enforce the law. Now Ottawa is reviewing that position.

"Following recent concerns surrounding Internet gambling in Canada, the Minister of Justice [Rob Nicholson] has asked his officials to examine whether the enforcement of the Criminal Code provisions could be assisted with other measures," said Genevieve Breton, Mr. Nicholson's director of communications.

The "other measures" are understood to be moves to restrict banks and credit card companies from conducting financial transactions with illegal Internet operators. Similar legislation was enacted in the United States two years ago......

 

[maxd]

Speaking as an ex-pat Canadian I can assure you that this kind of thing is a ritual in Canada. The tug of war between the feds and the reserves is perpetual, it's been going on my whole life. Almost every term of office sees this issue raised in one form or another and the net affect is usually absolutely zero.

The other thing that plays heavily here is that Kahnawake is based in Quebec and that severely restricts the reach that the feds have over them. Those of you familiar with Canadian politics will know that Quebec has been granted rather extensive powers within it's borders insofar as many federal issues are concerned. Reserve rights and powers are very definitely part of that.

The bottom line is that the feds can't touch the Quebec reserves unless Quebec agrees and even then anything that happens has to be done by Quebec on behalf of the feds. Given the often antagonistic history of relations between the (Francophone) Quebec government and the (largely Anglophone) feds I'll let you guess how rare that is.

I can certainly see the Feds going after the banks ala the US legislation -- the Canadian Feds are often lock-stepped behind the US in matters like this ... largely because the US has the "diplomatic influence" to see that it stays that way and that's doubly true with the current Canadian government -- but extending their reach to the reserves, especially the Quebec reserves, is an entirely different matter.

Look at it this way: the Canadian Feds are ever eager to be the friend of whatever US administration happens to be in power. The US has ten times the population of Canada and a million times the economic power ... you do the math. It is very rare indeed when a US administration comes down with some pet policy that the Canadians don't get up on the stage to bang the drum right along with them. The war on drugs, NAFTA, gas and oil, beef, lumber, water ... the list is endless. Basically whatever the US wants the US gets, however quiet the Canadian government may be about enforcing it. So ...

It would be a bit of a surprise if the Canadians didn't make some noise for the US re: the UIGEA, and one can well imagine that that means shaking the sabres at Kahnawake. I guess what I'm saying is don't hold your breath on the Canadian feds setting policy for Quebec reserves any time soon.

 

[maxd]

Can't resist. Here's more from the article Jetset cited (my italics):

The Mohawks of Kahnawake say these laws do not apply to them since they are a sovereign nation. They also cite section 35 of the Constitution, which was inserted to protect native culture. The Mohawks say that gaming has been central to their culture as a means of settling disputes through competition, not violence. Other native groups, such as the Alexander First Nation in Alberta, have said they plan to emulate Kahnawake.

What the Mohawks don't say is that because they are within Quebec borders they are basically a nation (the Mohawks) within a nation (Quebec) within a nation (Canada), a situation made possible by the systematic transfer of power from the Canadian central government to the regions over the last fifty or so years.

Basically what it boils down to is that the Feds in Canada have jurisdiction over the Anglos and those minorities who aren't strong or vocal enough to carve off their own powers.

It's worth noting that the situation is going to be quite different for the first nations peoples in Alberta. Historically they do what they're told to do by the Alberta government and Alberta is more or less the Texas of Canada ... in other words I wish them luck. Unless of course there's an economic benefit to the Alberta provincial government that is too significant to ignore, then Alberta can be quite tough in it's ability to stand up to and face down the feds.

 

[jetset]

Points well and interestingly made on the Canadian political scene.

A while back this might have been viewed with more alarm, but since the emergence of perhaps "better" jurisdictions closer to Europe the threat to the industry as a whole is mitigated even if the Kahnawake were to be taken down.

UK white-listing had the practical effect of influencing any number of licensees to seek additional jurisdictions anyway. And given the traditionally weak player-sensitivity of the Mohawks there will be little sympathy for them if the feds do move in.

The National Post story highlights something that the Canadians have yet to learn from their American [government] cousins - UIGEA has been effective to a degree, but it now seems to be bogging down on the practicalities of implementation - the criticisms of the regulations for example.

The USA gave a direction for other protectionist or monopolistic nations in the UIGEA - now we see suggestions that the French, Norwegians, Germans and Canadians are toying with the same sort of approach. One can only hope that good sense and Charlie McCreevy will put the brakes on that.

At the root it is not truly moral objections imo, but (depending on whose agenda it is) a mix of commercial protectionism, politics and religious groups with a control compulsion regarding their fellow citizens.

 

[maxd]

Good analysis Brian, I think you've pretty much nailed it.

The only part I'm not quite convinced of though is the motive for the recent noises from the Canadian gov't. I seriously think it's got more to do with the traditional weak-kneed Canadian "we're with the big guy" approach to international policy than it does with any home-grown Canadian protectionist policies.

I'll bet dollars to doughnut holes that the Canadians would have left the Mohawks to do their thing until the cows came home if they hadn't got one of those "this is what friends do (for us)" calls from Resident Dubya.

 

[littlebit]

Good analysis Brian, I think you've pretty much nailed it.

The only part I'm not quite convinced of though is the motive for the recent noises from the Canadian gov't. I seriously think it's got more to do with the traditional weak-kneed Canadian "we're with the big guy" approach to international policy than it does with any home-grown Canadian protectionist policies.

I'll bet dollars to doughnut holes that the Canadians would have left the Mohawks to do their thing until the cows came home if they hadn't got one of those "this is what friends do (for us)" calls from Resident Dubya.

Max,I think that would be an excellent bet to make. The government here wants to make sure to spread the misery around to their "friends".

 

[maxd]

The government here wants to make sure to spread the misery around ....

Sure seems that way, doesn't it?

 

[wangpoker]

I don't care Kahnawake, but the following message makes me very upset.

The "other measures" are understood to be moves to restrict banks and credit card companies from conducting financial transactions with illegal Internet operators. Similar legislation was enacted in the United States two years ago.

I'll never vote the Conservative.

 

[jetset]

Here's another - and expert - perspective on the issue:

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[maxd]

Good one Jetset, nice addition to the thread.

Just thought I'd add a footnote here. In this second article there's a quote:

"Practically speaking, I don't think the government is looking to move on this because it could lead to violence," Lipton said.

For any of you not familiar with the contemporary history of the Mohawks in Quebec there have been many such incidents. In the recent past, at least, the Mohawks have shown a distinct willingness to defend what they believe to be their sovereign rights and land with armed resistance. I can think of two or three such incidents off the top of my head.

The first was the infamous Oka incident in 1990 which ended up involving the Canadian Army and a lot of heavily armed Mohawk "Warriors" in a confrontation over treaty land rights.

Later that same year shots were fired on Mohawk lands over casino jurisdictions.

And a few years later the Canadian RCMP were in armed conflict with Mohawks selling cut-rate gasoline and cigarettes that they'd brought in from the US (both items are specifically controlled by Federal legislation).

To the best of my knowledge the Mohawks were eventually left to settle their own affairs in all of these incidents. They've got a pretty good track record of getting what they want when they demonstrate that they really want it.

 

[heatherad]

I seriously think it's got more to do with the traditional weak-kneed Canadian "we're with the big guy" approach to international policy than it does with any home-grown Canadian protectionist policies.
I'll bet dollars to doughnut holes that the Canadians would have left the Mohawks to do their thing until the cows came home if they hadn't got one of those "this is what friends do (for us)" calls from Resident Dubya.

 

[maxd]

Sorry heatherad, what does " " mean in this context?

I'm going to guess and suggest you were wondering what I meant by "one of those 'this is what friends do (for us)' calls", yes?

The US administration is historically quite willing to call the Canadian government and ask, point blank, that they support this or that US policy (NAFTA, the "war" on drugs, whatever). This usually results in a public statement from the Canadian government that they are now considering a policy which coincidentally looks remarkably like the US one, in affect if not actual wording. So "the call" is a reminder to a "special friend" what is expected of them.

 

[heatherad]

Sorry heatherad, what does " " mean in this context?

I was just curious if you were calling Canadians weak-kneed as a whole, or if you were just referring to the political aspect of it?
It has always been my opinion (and notice I said MY ) that Natives fought good and hard for what they thought was theirs no matter which country they lived in.
I'm not sure where I stand on the Kahnawake issue as you do make a strong, valid point that violence could play a big part in the factor.

 

[maxd]

Ah, I see now. When I said "the traditional weak-kneed Canadian 'we're with the big guy' approach to international policy" I was referring to international policy, or more specifically international economic policy.

In general I don't think Canadians are "week kneed" at all, rather the contrary actually, but the bottom line as I see it is that my country, Canada, is too often willingly subservient to the US. It's become who we are and what we do: living in the shadow of the beast has basically turned Canada into a vassal state of the US.

It's heartbreaking, "The True North Strong and Free" is a just a bunch of words because Canada is neither strong nor free: economically we are dependent on and heavily tied to the US and politically we're just the piss boy. Most Canadians don't even see the problem, they just think the US is great and what's there to bitch about? How does the saying go? Put a man in chains and he's your slave today, break his spirit and he's yours forever.

 

[jetset]

Canadian racetrack owners timing their run at online gambling well - I think this bears out what Max was saying about the Woodbine monopoly.

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[heatherad]

Thank you for clarifying that maxd
I had a nice size reply all typed out and when I hit submit the dang thing had logged me out.
Lets just agree to disagree about Canada living in the shadows of the U.S. and being subservient
I have too many questions that I don't know where to start and when to stop regarding Kahnawake. It just seems more and more, everyday, the government is finding new ways to step up and poke Canadians in the eye by telling them what they can and cannot do.
But on the other hand, do the Mohawks actually have the right to fight for this feverishly? Is it stated somewhere on a treaty or some other piece of paper that they do have the right?
I can't even argue the fact of a treaty because I know diddly squat about it.
Most importantly, is there a way Canadians, Americans or anyone else for that matter, can have a strong voice on the issue of online gambling? I mean we all know that whatever the government says, goes, and that there is more to life than online gambling, but when it comes down to it, isn't it like voting?
We have the right to vote, so I say lets take a vote on this!

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Very interesting thread and just a couple days ago I was discussing some of the Canadian/US political interactions with Pina (yes as adults we resolved our previous differences awhile back I am happy to say) as well as Canadians perceptions of Americans and the US in general......The previous Bodog threads (pre Max) educated me about some of the previous relations between the various branchs of the Canadian government and the Mohawks!!!

 

[maxd]

... It just seems more and more, everyday, the government is finding new ways to step up and poke Canadians in the eye by telling them what they can and cannot do.

Which more or less get's us back living in the shadows, etc etc.
My point there was that Canada often marches to the US tune on a lot of things and I think the erosion of freedoms and rights is a perfect example of that. I don't mean to harp on the point, just pointing out what I think is an excellent example of it.

... do the Mohawks actually have the right to fight for this feverishly? Is it stated somewhere on a treaty or some other piece of paper that they do have the right?

AFAIK, the old treaties have all pretty much been replaced by clauses in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I'm not sure of the specific terminology therein but the bottom line is that the first nations were granted the right to pursue a traditional lifestyle and given jurisdiction over aspects of their civil life connected thereto. This is why almost all of their arguements are worded in terms of "it's our heritage" or "our national identity", they're arguing that traditional lifestyle clauses of the Charter are applicable.

That said, I lived in Quebec for several years and I can tell you that the Mohawks pretty much take the "our land, our laws" approach to anything that is of concern to them. They're armed to the teeth, militant, and more than happy to defy provincial and federal law if they feel it necessary to do so.

Do they have the right? That's one for the courts, but in the meantime they'll blockade provincial highways at the drop of a feather if they think they're being pushed around by the province or the feds. And we're not talking teepees and buffalo hides here, it's automatic weapons and light artillery for these guys. They can and will shoot if they feel it necessary, friends of mine had the bullet holes in their vehicles to prove it. And the provincial response to all of this? They're quick to puff and bluster, often putting on a good show of rallying the provincial equivalent of the SWAT teams, but in the end the blockades usually come down when the natives are good and ready to take them down and my friends had to pay the body shop bills to get the bullet holes fixed.

Quebec isn't the only place where this happens by the way, BC has had it's fair share of similar things, but the BC tribes aren't quite so quick to climb into the body armour and pull out the sniper rifles.

 

[heatherad]

Thank you maxd, that bit of knowledge was very interesting to read
By the way, I did not know until this thread that you were a Canadian who lived in Quebec.

 

[jetset]

There's an interesting quote going the rounds at present from a Kahnawake official slamming the electronic media for making a mountain out of a molehill on this nevertheless important (in the online gambling context) story.

The Mohawk guy castigates the "lemming like" media and attempts to downplay this issue, implying that the Canadian Minister of Justice has said nothing to alarm the business. That's an interesting observation, given comments by the Minister's spokesperson quoted in Canadian media reports:

QUOTE: "A spokesperson for Rob Nicholson, the Canadian Minister of Justice told the newspaper: "Following recent concerns surrounding Internet gambling in Canada, the Minister of Justice has asked his officials to examine whether the enforcement of the Criminal Code provisions could be assisted with other measures," said Genevieve Breton, director of communications for the ministry.

The "other measures" are understood to be moves to restrict banks and credit card companies from conducting financial transactions with illegal Internet operators, following the model of the American Unlawful Internet Gambling and Enforcement Act introduced in October 2006, which caused substantial losses among a number of UK listed companies which withdrew from the US market. UNQUOTE

and

QUOTE: Liberal MP Roy Cullen, whose Etobicoke North riding includes Toronto's Woodbine Racetrack, said yesterday he plans to introduce a private members' bill that would require financial institutions and credit card companies to block Internet betting transactions.

Cullen claims that current laws prohibit all forms of Internet gambling in Canada with three exceptions: lotteries in provinces that allow online ticket sales; bettors who have telephone accounts at horse-racing tracks; and private bets between individuals. But he complains that the law is not being enforced.

The MP says that the problem is offshore operators, among them the 400 or so online poker and sportsbetting websites licensed and operating from the Kahnawake reserve just south of Montreal. UNQUOTE

Whilst I agree with Max here that it is unlikely the Canadian feds will risk another violent clash with the Mohawks over such a sensitive issue as tribal rights and priveleges under treaty, I do think that it is questionable for the Mohawk spokesperson to rail against the media when there clearly is an issue here.

 

[maxd]

...I do think that it is questionable for the Mohawk spokesperson to rail against the media when there clearly is an issue here.

Great additional material Jetset, thank you.

As to the Mohawk speaker I've gotta add this: he's been a lot more realistic about it than the minister or his spokesperson ... and he's also protecting the Mohawk interests. In Canada things often come down to a "don't fix it if it ain't broke" way of doing things, politically speaking, so there's a great advantage to the Mohawks to have this issue fade away quickly.

That said the minister is probably up for reelection in his riding or somesuch and is trying to make hay for the constituents. If I had $5 for every time this "casino bad" thing has popped up in the Canadian media over the last ten years I'd be vacationing someplace warm at the moment.

I know I'm sawing on about this but honestly, as a Canadian, I ask myself the following questions, more or less in descending order of significance:

- What's the minister _really_ on about and is he looking at an election in his riding any time soon? The point being that it could simply be electioneering and we all know how much that has to do with post-election realities.

- Is the government rattling the sabres to appease the Americans and the UIGEA bee they've got in their bonnet? If so, how realistic is it that they could actually do something to change the status quo here. I'm suggesting the answers here would be "probably yes" and "not much".

- How is this any different that the countless other times this has come up? Non-native Canada often bristles at the apparently endless exceptions the treaty and reserve natives seem to enjoy, hence the frequent agitation about things like the gambling issue. If this is more of the same then it's almost certainly steam being vented not actions being undertaken.

- Finally, if the issue is genuine and there's a will to actually do something here instead of just talk about it how practical is it that the type of changes being discussed could actually be implemented? And that brings us back to recent Canadian history: if the natives, particularly the Mohawks are making buckets of money off of something then the realistic chances that the province or the feds can stop them doing it are almost nil. They've tried a few times over the last 20 or so years and as far as I know they've failed every time: casinos, gas, cigarettes, fish, water rights, you name it. The natives win every time, largely because the feds are terrified of being seen as today's oppressors of our historically oppressed first nations. That is political suicide in Canada, plain and simple.

So, all that to say yes, I think the Mohawk spin-doctor was more or less being truthful about the situation. The politicians are banging a can, the media whores are punting it off as real news and the natives don't like the boat being rocked. My bet is on the natives.

... I did not know until this thread that you were a Canadian who lived in Quebec.

Well, if I may put on a bit of brogue for a moment, "oo lassy, dat was soom time agoo."