Resolved BWIN Casino - Roulette in the Instant Casino Ignores bets randomly!

[Janek12]

I have just found out and I am posting this to warn all the others: The European Pro-Roulette at the instant casino at bwin.com has a terrible glitch: It sometimes does not credit winnings. I have already written to their support; the only contact is via e-mail, so I will have to wait for their answer. I have recorded the ID of the game in which this occurred, so they should be able to examine it.
And it was not the only instance! Right before this particular wager, it happened for 2-3 times in a row! I could not believe my eyes!
I hope they indemnify their players for this generously. They are licenced in Gibraltar so I hope there is a good chance of a decent remedy for the players (including me, of course).
So for now, be warned; and I will post updates, hopefullly, there will be some.

 

[dionysus]

Not to doubt, but um, why three times? After the first,I'd contact support

 

[Janek12]

As I said, I could not believe my eyes! I tried again and again, just to make sure I am not just seeing things or to make sure that perhaps the glitch is that winnings are not credited right after the spin but that perhaps winnings are credited after the next spin - that would be a glitch nonetheless, but not of the really detrimental kind.
And before that there were several times, too, but not more than one in a row. But this sequence of 3-4 games, in which winnings were not credited, finally convinced me. I know, I am very slow !

 

[Janek12]

Now I found the phone contact so I even phoned them. The support found my e-mail and said they would look into it. I am really curious about the outcome... I have been playing online for 5+ years and I have never ever encountered anything like this.

 

[Janek12]

Unbelievable, in a nutshell: they sent me a canned response (erase temporary Internet files, etc.) and told me that everything was all right.
And I maybe understand why - in the meantime, I have found out that whenever the glitch occurs, there is no ID of the game in the field where it should be. The field is just blank. So there is no ID of the game, under which they could find the occurrance of the glitch.
Also, I got the impression that when the glitch occurs, the game does not result in a change of balance, i.e. if I should lose my bet, the balance is not affected either - which would be somewhat good news; but I have yet to verify this, I think I have seen this in one instance, but I am not entirely sure.

Please, could someone recommend me a simple screen video-recording software? I would like to record this, I think they won't be able to ignore such proof.

 

[Janek12]

In the meanwhile, I have made two screenshots. Notice the blank field with the ID of the current game. Also, although I have bet 0.6 EUR on 2nd and 3rd dozen, the bet and total bet placed and paid (left bottom corner) are zero. This alone is a proof that something is wrong; in this roulette, it is not possible to spin without a bet!

And the final and most simple proof: Notice, on the mark board, that "Last ID" in the second screenshot is the same one as in the first screen shot but there is one extra number of the mark board (the number 22, for which there was no ID of the game).

 

[Janek12]

I apologise for the poor quality of the screenshots; in the original, it is possible to enlarge them to see the field "Last ID" clearly. I will try to upload better versions later on.
If there is anyone interested, I can send them the screenshots in an e-mail (or is it possible by PM?).

 

[Janek12]

Hopefully, these screenshots will be more legible. Of course, I have also sent them to the support by e-mail. I think this is pretty damning evidence.

 

[Jinn]

The missing ID in the 1st screenshot looks pretty conclusive - there is a glitch affecting game-play.

It's unfortunate that you first got a canned response, but I believe they'll look into it now they can see it's a legitimate problem. The regular support people probably don't have the ability to investigate this properly so you may need to keep contacting them until they escalate it to the tech team.

It reminds me of this old thread here on the forum where it looked like English Harbour was cheating but it turned out that they had unknowingly uploaded a corrupt file, though they denied anything was wrong at first :

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...proof-that-english-harbour-is-cheating.12185/

Something similar could be happening here. Hopefully there will be a quick response and resolution.

 

[Janek12]

Thank you for your comment, Jinn.
To be fair to the support, the canned response came after my first e-mail, which I wrote before I knew the specifics of the glitch and before I made the screenshots.
I also think that they will now respond appropriately - the question is when!
As of now, the game is still available and still the glitch is there; as a proof, I have attached another set of two screenshots - once again, the ID of the last game is the same in both screenshots and the number 34, which came up in the spin without ID, is the one that was ignored and the one for which no winnings were credited.
Also, note that it took just a few spins for the glitch occur.

I have now sent them these two screenshots (in addition to the ones I sent yesterday); I am curious how long it will take them at least to withdraw the game...
How can such a software error happen on the site of such otherwise IMO reputable company as Bwin is beyond me...

 

[mn001]

For me it looks like you just spinned the wheel without any bet. Sorry if I missunderstand this. I will reread a third time now. I've played a lot on these roulette games myself...

Bwin.Party will help you but they work slow sometimes... but when the right people get the info they will help you. They are a good casino.

 

[Janek12]

I have an important update - I have found out that it IS POSSIBLE to spin this roulette without a bet. So the screenshots are not proof enough. It really only looks as if no bet was placed.
So I have now made a video of it and it is available at this link: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
In this video, you can see how the bet placed on 12 is ignored and the bet placed on 25 is ignored.
In the first instance (number 12), I should have lost, but the loss was not deducted from my balance; the balance remained the same.
In the second instance (number 25), I should have won, but the winnings were not credited to my balance and the balance remained the same.

So it is not so bad - winnings are not credited but losses are not deducted either; here is a proof of that.
But it is definitely a serious error - because this glitch occurs quite randomly, as far as I can tell - and therefore can unpredictably and seriously affect the RTP on this roulette.

 

[Janek12]

I have asked Simmo to change the title of the thread from "Does not credit winnings!" to "Ignores bets randomly!" because that is more accurate.

 

[Janek12]

Just an update - later on Wednesday, I even spoke with the English-speaking support, in addition to the Slovak-speaking support, just to make sure my complaint about the software error is not ignored. The man I spoke to promised to look into it and said they did not need the video recording of the software glitch right now...

Right after that I sent the support an e-mail with the link to the video recording anyway. (It is the same link I posted a few posts back here.)

As of now, I have not received any reponse from them - not even confirmation of receipt of the e-mail with the link.

And the error is still there!!! I checked just now! Here is another link Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) to the short video I taped now, showing the error. Notice that the number 3 is ignored and the balance remains the same, 17.10 EUR, as it was before the bet (the bet should have been deducted from the balance). Also, notice that when I then click on the button in the right bottom corner, which says "REBET 0 and SPIN", the bet of 0.3 EUR on 2nd dozen and 3rd dozen is placed. This is also another clear indication of the error.

I cannot see how a big company such as BWIN can be so slow to response to this matter! The bigger the company, the bigger the responsibility, and the faster they should act, IMO!

 

[Janek12]

IMPORTANT UPDATE: I have just found out that the European Roulette Pro is now also in the download section of Bwin casino - they have launched this new version of download casino today.
And regrettably, the European Roulette Pro in the download section is the same as the one in the instant section - the error is there; I have made yet another video of it, just to collect ample evidence...

I also phoned to the BWIN support now and have sent them yet another e-mail becuase they told me the Rapidshare links were not working for them. In case this happens to anyone here, this is a link to a Czech file-sharing site where I have also uploaded the videos showing the software error during play:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.
After you click on the link, you need to click on the word "STÁHNOUT" next to the file names.

 

[Jinn]

Just wanted to let you know you're not just talking to yourself here

I'm still very interested to hear how this will be resolved.

I did try the demo of this same game at Party Casino but only with the 'Play Money' version since I don't have funds in my account there. And that wasn't useful because the Play Money version doesn't even show any ID for the current game. If anyone has a Party account and funds available, feel free to see if the same bug exists there too

By the way, the Rapidshare links worked for me, maybe they just couldn't find the proper download button If they have a problem with your Czech sharing service I can host the files for you, no problem - just let me know.

 

[mn001]

You click very fast in the software and also have it on fast spin mode. Can you do it slower to show? Tried to look several times on the first one you had on the -cz download site.

I can't reproduce what I think you mean.

 

[Janek12]

You click very fast in the software and also have it on fast spin mode. Can you do it slower to show? Tried to look several times on the first one you had on the -cz download site.

I can't reproduce what I think you mean.

I had it on fast mode and I played fast on purpose; with the software I used, one-minute video is around 30 MB so in a slow spin mode, it could be hundreds of MB because I cannot predict when the glitch will occur. Sometimes it takes around 20 spins, at other times it takes just 1 spin.
If you are using VLC player, try slowing it down while playing (I am not sure but I think the option to slow down playing is also in the Windows Media Player).
The main point is that I clearly place a bet and then click on the SPIN button and then a number comes up but it does not affect the balance (do not be confused by the fact that the balance DOES change immediately after the error occurs because the bet is returned to the balance - what I mean is that the balance is the same BEFORE the bet was placed and AFTER the error occurs in a spin).

But I know what you mean; when I was checking the video myself, I had to play it several times to catch the occurrence. I think it may help if you focus beforehand on the numbers I describe in my comments on the videos. After each occurrence of the error, I paused a little; another clear indicator of the occurrence of the error is that the field "Current ID" of the game is blank - and this should be blank only when a player spins without any bet (that's what support told me - and it makes sense that when no bet is placed, there is no need to record the game in the log under an ID).

 

[Janek12]

By the way, the Rapidshare links worked for me, maybe they just couldn't find the proper download button If they have a problem with your Czech sharing service I can host the files for you, no problem - just let me know.

I am happy to hear that the links worked for you and thank you for the offer but if the technical department of Bwin were not able to handle two Rapidshare links, then I think all my efforts are futile and there is no chance of any correction of the software .
But to be fair - I can understand that the system the support uses may be prohibited to go to "questionable" sites such as Rapidshare - my antivirus (McAffee) always warns me before I go to that site - as if it were some kind of horrible threat, lol.

 

[Jasminebed]

Good for you for keeping after them Janek. I too am reading with interest.

If you record some video with your cell phone or camera, you could send the file(s) as attachments. If you don't have a digi camera that will shoot some video, you could probably borrow one briefly.

 

[Janek12]

I have received an UNBELIEVABLE answer from Bwin:


Dear Mr K.,

Thank you for your e-mails and phone calls.

We would like to apologise for the delay in responding to your query.

Please be advised that it is possible to spin the roulette without placing a bet. Such games receive no IDs.

While checking the video you had sent to us we noticed that you were rebetting "€0,00", and those games had no IDs. This is normal as there is no real money transaction. You will be able to see a game ID if you play with real money only.

We thank you for your understanding. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards,

Your bwin customer service team
b'inside Green Members

bwin acknowledges its commitment to responsible gaming

Did they read my comments on the videos at all? I am absolutely astonished. Have they failed to notice the SIMPLEST FACT that in the second video, when I press "REBET 0 and SPIN" a bet of 0.3 EUR and 0.3 EUR is placed on the 2nd dozen and 3rd dozen, respectively? How is that NOT AN ERROR???

I answered them, telling them I am giving them a few more days, then I am contacting the Gibraltar license provider. I am really running out of patience.

 

[Jinn]

I know it's frustrating, but in most cases the general support people are very low-level in the organization, they are overworked and don't have the time, or the deep understanding, that is necessary to investigate this type of problem properly - or even to listen properly!

They really need to elevate this to the higher-level tech team to investigate fully. But the low-level staff are instructed not to elevate issues to the higher level unless absolutely necessary, so that the tech team aren't bothered by general support issues.

Hopefully they will take notice soon...

 

[vinylweatherman]

A warning to Bwin.

Keep stonewalling like this, and a minor glitch will escalate into an English Harbour sized mess.

What made the EH incident so bad was the fact that they kept on denying anything was amiss, and it took an overwhelming amount of evidence and the involvement of some high ranking experts to force them to escalate the matter high enough for the problem to be diagnosed. They then faced months of undoing the damage and compensating players who lost out to the error.


There is clearly more to this than a player not understanding the difference between "fun play" and real play.

A clear sign is that a marker is placed on the number that wins (34) in the screenshot, and that the bet is refunded, rather than winnings paid. This is NOT the same as there not having been a bet placed in the first place.

Players are going to notice this much more when they win, so it will appear that the RTP is being lowered by having the software randomly void winning bets and refunding the stake. You will not convince players this has no effect on the long term outcome. They are less likely to notice the losing bets that also get refunded.

Further evidence is present in the next screenshot, as the number (34) that was supposedly void is shown in the table of past results.

Since the SAME error has appeared in the download version, we can discount the idea that it is related to the browser and/or cache of the player's PC.

I am sure that if this glitch was to the player's advantage, we would have been seeing more action on it by now.

The lack of a game ID means that looking through logs is NOT the way for the tech support to investigate this, they need to play the game for a time and record the session. They should also view videos given to them by players, and then try to recreate the glitch with the software in "debug mode", recording data that is not normally logged.

 

[Janek12]

Further evidence is present in the next screenshot, as the number (34) that was supposedly void is shown in the table of past results.

Thank you very much VWM for commenting on this; I am starting to feel like Don Quixote and I welcome any support.

But just for the sake of accuracy, I would like to point out that I have found out that the screenshots do not prove anything - the screenshots would be the same if I did not place any bet before the number 34 came up and if I then placed the bet of 0.2 EUR and 0.2 EUR on 2nd and 3rd dozen.

The real proof is in the videos - where it can be clearly seen that I placed a bet and the bet was then only returned to the balance without any loss/winnings.

I agree that players who find this out will be angry because they will think they are primarily being denied their winnings - but this may not only be a matter of perception from the player's p.o.v.
If the bets are not ignored really randomly (at least at the level of randomness that would meet the standards of a certified RNG), then this can seriously affect the actual RTP of this roulette since the error occurs quite frequently, at least once roughly every 20 spins in my experience. (At one point, it even occurred in 3 spins in a row.) I was unable to see any pattern as to which bets are ignored; but this does not mean that there is not any, meaning that the error can be triggered by some non-random event.

I have another minor update: As far as I was able to find out, this error only occurs when bets are placed on dozens. It does not occur when bets are placed on black/red and lines (such as 1-6, 7-12, etc.), as far as I was able to see.

 

[Janek12]

And the farce continues

Today, I have received an even more unbelievable reply from Bwin.

Just to put things in context and for the laugh, I will post my e-mail as well:

Hello,

but did you notice that when I was pressing the button "REBET 0 and SPIN" that a bet was then placed???
Did you read my comments on the video at all???
Did you notice that in one of the videos, the bet placed on 12 is ignored and the bet placed on 25 is ignored??? And that after the bet is ignored (you can see the amount of the bet in the video) that the button in the right bottom corner reads "REBET 0 and SPIN" although a BET WAS PLACED?

In the first video, when number 12 came up, I should have lost, but the loss was not deducted from my balance; the balance remained the same.
And later on in the same video, when number 25 came up, I should have won, but the winnings were not credited to my balance and the balance remained the same.

In the second video, the number 3 is ignored and the balance remains the same, 17.10 EUR, as it was before the bet (the bet should have been deducted from the balance). And when I then click on the button in the right bottom corner, which says "REBET 0 and SPIN", the bet of 0.3 EUR each is placed on 2nd dozen and 3rd dozen. Can't you see the error???

I am running out of patience - I will give you a few more days to watch the videos more carefully and with greater attention (and to actually read and understand my comments) - then I am contacting your provider of license.

Best regards

J. K.

And the response from Bwin was:

Dear Mr. K.,

Thank you for your e-mail. We would like to apologise for the delay in responding to your query.

We kindly ask you to send in all the game IDs of the games you have having issues with. Please also include what you think the error is with each game ID.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards,

Your bwin customer service team
b'inside Green Members

bwin acknowledges its commitment to responsible gaming



So I have now resent them the previous super-detailed e-mail (which contains a summary of the information I posted here in several posts) with some added text (pointing out that the faulty games do not have any IDs).

 

[maxd]

Thread title changed to avoid confusion with official Casinomeister Warnings.

 

[Jinn]

We kindly ask you to send in all the game IDs of the games you have having issues with.

It seems they still haven't escalated the issue to the people at the top that actually deal with real problems and not just customer errors.

There must be SOMEBODY working there that has the ability to read your description of the problem and investigate it properly without these nonsensical replies. I'm going to forward this thread to a contact I have at bwin.party, they're on the affiliate side but maybe they can forward it to the right person to investigate.

I believe they should compensate you for the large amount of time and effort you've put into trying to report this problem with no proper response

 

[Janek12]

Jinn, thank you so much! I have really devoted a lot of time and effort to this already; and although I am getting tired of pointing out the obvious to the Bwin support for the umpteenth time, I don't want to let it be.
It is true that I started to feel - a little - like an unpaid external consultant of Bwin .

Hopefully, your intervention will help.

 

[Janek12]

The problem will be resolved soon! Hopefully, there will be a happy end to this!

I have just received an e-mail from Bwin, in which they finally admitted the error!!! To provide all those who followed this thread with a fair picture, I think I owe it to them to show them the full text of the e-mail, as I have done in the previous instances:


Dear Mr. K.,

We would like to apologize for the waiting time and thank you, since based on your input the existence of a technical problem affecting one of the casino games in the past days could be finally assessed.

Very few of your played games with real money have been affected by this problem, which is currently being worked on with high priority and will be solved very soon.

bwin has decided to credit your gaming account with the amount of 1000 EUR as a sign of gratitude for bringing this to our attention and also as expression of our apologies for the inconvenience that the malfunction may have created. You are free to invest the mentioned amount in further playing or to withdraw it. We would like in any case to assure you that bwin demands the highest level of commitment with quality and security. Unfortunately, human errors cannot be excluded 100%. We are confident that the measures taken are to your full satisfaction.

Once we receive your confirmation that you accept our sign of gratitude, the amount of 1000 EUR will be credited to your account

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards,

Your bwin customer service team
b'inside Green Members

bwin acknowledges its commitment to responsible gaming

It is very well possible that the intervention of Jinn helped to achieve this outcome this so I think a certain part of this reward belongs to him; I will, of course, discuss the details of this with him only via PM.

As for the compensation of all other players who played the malfunctioning software... that is up to Bwin...

 

[Jinn]

That's great news, that you were finally able to have someone investigate fully.

And that you receive compensation for all your effort, I believe that is only fair after you persevered despite the obstacles. :notworthy

It is very well possible that the intervention of Jinn helped to achieve this outcome

I am not at all certain of that, the timing was probably coincidental. In any case, you did all the hard work, it was your time and effort that resolved this. So thanks for the offer, but I politely decline :Angel: I have also been trying to fix a problem (mine was with a casino's affiliate program) and today after weeks of time and effort they too have admitted the problem and offered compensation.

So we can both celebrate our success today And hopefully we won't be involuntarily working as 'external consultants' again, for some time at least

 

[Janek12]

So we can both celebrate our success today And hopefully we won't be involuntarily working as 'external consultants' again, for some time at least

Thank you Jinn once again for your support and understanding!

I am joining you in the celebration today; just a little while ago, Bwin has credited my account with the compensation/reward. I am going to test the roulette, most likely tomorrow, and I will report back - objectively and impartially; I am not ready to give up my position of "consultant" yet!

 

[Jasminebed]

I'm not a Bwin customer (nor a roulette player usually), but not only am I glad Bwin is finally going to address the problem, I'm very happy to hear that they gave you such a substantial compensation. You spent a lot of time on the issue, and put your own funds at risk in the process.

Even though the repeated glitches seem to fall into the "Malfunction voids all play" since losing bets were also returned, it is a very large error, sure to upset players and tarnish Bwin's reputation if it was allowed to continue.

I hope you enjoy your reward, however you choose to use it.

 

[Janek12]

I was impatient to try the European Roulette-Pro - to see if the error is gone. THE ERROR STILL OCCURS! It is still there!
I appreciate the gesture from Bwin enormously (I mean the compensation/reward they credited to my account) but I cannot understand why they did not withdraw the game until it is corrected!!!

And just to illustrate the magnitude of the problem - within 13 spins, the error occurred twice and therefore I was denied two winning outcomes!
In the second instance, I made a video again. If anyone is still interested in seeing another proof, it is here: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
Notice that when I press the button "REBET 0 and SPIN" that actually a bet of 0.4 EUR is placed on 2nd dozen and 3rd dozen. You cannot see the bet placed because it is in turbo mode but you can see the result of the bet and the spin - the winnings of 0.4 EUR and also, the same button then reads "REBET 0.8 and SPIN". This is still the same error I have been pointing out for more than a week now. Also, once again, notice that before I press the "REBET 0 and SPIN" button; the field "Current ID" is blank although it should not be because bet of 0.4 EUR on 2nd and 3rd dozen was in fact placed (the proof of which is that when I press the "REBET 0 and SPIN" button, these amounts are the ones that are rebet.)

OK, Bwin are working on it; but why have they not withdrawn the game from the casino and why are not they working on the problem, so to speak, in the back-office?

I have sent them an e-mail with this question and with the link to the video.

 

[Janek12]

Even though the repeated glitches seem to fall into the "Malfunction voids all play" since losing bets were also returned, it is a very large error, sure to upset players and tarnish Bwin's reputation if it was allowed to continue.

Dear Jasmine, first of all, thank you for your kind words!

But I would like to point out once again that this is no ordinary malfunction like loss of connection. This is a software error, which may potentially alter the RTP of this roulette, depending on what triggers this error. So if a player does not notice this error, he may continue playing but may be exposed to a substantially different theoretical RTP than the one that is set in stone for European roulette.
In other words: It is true that losing bets are also returned but if the error is not triggered as randomly as if it were triggered by a certified RNG, then the actual RTP of the roulette will be skewed by the error.

 

[Janek12]

Further update: I have now experienced the error even when I was betting on red/black. So it is not confined just to bets on dozens.

 

[Janek12]

Another update:
I checked the game again today. The error is still there; and at one time, it occurred 3 times within 6 spins...

And I received this e-mail today from Bwin (in response to my question why they don't withdraw the game until it is fixed):


Dear Mr K.,

Thank you for your e-mail.

Further to your information regarding the Instant Play Casino, we have received confirmation that this technical bug will be fixed by Monday. We thank you for your patience whilst we work towards doing so.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries.

Kind regards,

Your bwin customer service team
b'inside Green Members

bwin acknowledges its commitment to responsible gaming


In other words: We don't give a damn that we are offering a flawed game.

 

[Janek12]

Just a minor update: I have found out that the error has to do with the "rebet" button (not to be confused with the "Rebet and Spin" button). If I place the whole bet manually, without pressing "rebet" first, then the error does not occur and the European Roulette-Pro works fine.
But if I place a bet by first pressing "rebet" and then adding a few chips or removing a few chips, then the bet is exposed to the risk that the error will occur.

Perhaps this is the reason why they may have not got other reports (or the critical amount of reports that would have made them do something about it sometime earlier); perhaps most players do not use the "rebet" button.

 

[Janek12]

Another update, this time a not so minor one!

I have just now checked the European Roulette-Pro at Bwin once again and I had to send them the following e-mail:


Dear sirs,

it seems to me that a part of the problem has been fixed but not the whole problem.

Previously, when the "rebet" button was used to place a bet and the bet was ONLY placed using the "rebet" button, sometimes the bets were ignored. According to my observations, this does not happen anymore.

But one problem still remains: When I placed a bet of 0.4 EUR on 2nd and 3rd dozens using the "rebet" button and THEN removed two chips using SHIFT + left-click and left only 0.2 EUR on each of the 2nd and 3rd dozens and then pressed the SPIN button, my bet was ignored!

So there is still a part of the error that needs to be fixed.

Best regards,

J. K.

So the saga continues... IIRC, it will be two weeks this Wednesday since when I first alerted them to the software error in European Roulette-Pro.

 

[Janek12]

The error has been fixed!

Finally, the error has been fixed! I played hundreds of spins and the error has not occurred so I think it is safe to say that it is gone.

In conclusion, I can say that Bwin treated me really nice moneywise; on top of the 1,000 EUR compensation, I received a non-deposit bonus of 100 EUR with 35xWR. In total, I withdrew 1,600 EUR (serves them right!).

But I have no idea whether other players who had played the flawed roulette have been compensated or not...