Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Meanwhile accession to the Pacific trade agreement (CPTPP) is taking longer than expected. The predicted January signing has now been delayed to March,despite

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. The CPTPP is a potential rival to the EU, without Europe’s regulatory burdens and political commitments to ever-closer union. As Europe’s share of global trade declines, Rejoiners are conscious that their economic case only grows weaker over time – though the anti-Brexit propaganda campaign remains in full force.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There's been a lot of 'it's too soon to pass judgement yet, give it time', including in this very thread. As Rawnsley points out here, we're coming up to three years now, give it another year? Another couple of years? Five years maybe?

It doesn't make any difference, like a square wheel, it's never going to work, and giving it time won't change that. The only solution is to start to change the shape of wheel.

-----------------------------

Some of the advocates for the project now recognise that it has failed and have begun to admit as much. Alex Hickman, a business adviser at Number 10 during the Johnson premiership, recently wrote: “Those of us who backed Leave must acknowledge that Brexit isn’t working… It is not clear to most people what Brexit is actually for.”

Some of the champions of Brexit can see it has been a disaster, but can’t publicly admit it – a category that includes members of the cabinet. The Brexit-supporting Tory peer and boss of Next, Simon Wolfson, is among the many who grizzle that this is “

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

”. Even Brexiters know it looks ridiculous to point the finger at recalcitrant “Remoaners” when Brexiters have been running the government for nearly four years.

So now they turn the accusation of sabotage on their own gang by blaming the Tories for messing it up by not doing it “properly”, whatever properly is supposed to be. They sound like those ultra-leftists who claim that Marxism only became discredited as a method of government because none of the various experiments with that creed applied it correctly.

 

[mack341]

There's been a lot of 'it's too soon to pass judgement yet, give it time', including in this very thread. As Rawnsley points out here, we're coming up to three years now, give it another year? Another couple of years? Five years maybe?

It doesn't make any difference, like a square wheel, it's never going to work, and giving it time won't change that. The only solution is to start to change the shape of wheel.

-----------------------------

Some of the advocates for the project now recognise that it has failed and have begun to admit as much. Alex Hickman, a business adviser at Number 10 during the Johnson premiership, recently wrote: “Those of us who backed Leave must acknowledge that Brexit isn’t working… It is not clear to most people what Brexit is actually for.”

Some of the champions of Brexit can see it has been a disaster, but can’t publicly admit it – a category that includes members of the cabinet. The Brexit-supporting Tory peer and boss of Next, Simon Wolfson, is among the many who grizzle that this is “

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

”. Even Brexiters know it looks ridiculous to point the finger at recalcitrant “Remoaners” when Brexiters have been running the government for nearly four years.

So now they turn the accusation of sabotage on their own gang by blaming the Tories for messing it up by not doing it “properly”, whatever properly is supposed to be. They sound like those ultra-leftists who claim that Marxism only became discredited as a method of government because none of the various experiments with that creed applied it correctly.

View attachment 178934
View attachment 178935

These articles would make more sense if we'd left without a free trade deal in place, that was always the main selling point of being in the EU and we still have it. Wolfson's moaning because he has to pay staff slightly more in order to recruit afaik.

It's predictable that any macro economic issues the uk has faced would be seized by remainers to cast as the effects of brexit. Rawnsley is firmly in the blairite camp, does he provide any concrete reasons why brexit is so terrible?

Edit: Because that is actually how you convince people, with reasons that make sense. Some staffer saying x,y,z without their reasoning for that opinion provided is not a reason.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

These articles would make more sense if we'd left without a free trade deal in place, that was always the main selling point of being in the EU and we still have it. Wolfson's moaning because he has to pay staff slightly more in order to recruit afaik.

Apart from the bit where we left the EU Single Market and also the Customs Union, which incidentally is also why there's now a border down the Irish Sea.

All Johnson's (and Frost's) amazing 'FREE TRADE DEAL' really did was give the EU access to sell us all their stuff tariff free, which is of course entirely in their interests because we had a massive trade deficit with the EU (and we now have an even bigger one), whilst nobbling UK producers of anything trying to sell into the EU, because of all the extra red tape and costs.

And also, make no mistake, you're paying the costs in around 5% of extra inflation on top of everything else (Covid/Ukraine) that's entirely down to Brexit, Tesco just don't put that on their price stickers to help explain to folks why everything has got so expensive - instead they quietly passed the Brexit costs onto you.

 

[mack341]

All Johnson's (and Frost's) amazing 'FREE TRADE DEAL' really did was give the EU access to sell us all their stuff tariff free, which is of course entirely in their interests because we had a massive trade deficit with the EU (and we now have an even bigger one), whilst nobbling UK producers of anything trying to sell into the EU, because of all the extra red tape and costs.

I'd be amazed if Rawnsley stated this as a reason, because red tape can be improved/removed, whereas his like never had any time for being outside of the EU, they never want it to work.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Not even Farage is arguing with Brexit costing the UK around 4% of its GDP now, and openly conceding that for small and medium sized businesses in the UK, the Brexit 'benefits' are in fact, 'nothing'.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It's not a great article TBH, repeating the absolute falsehood that the UK couldn't have done its vaccine rollout whilst an EU member (which it was when it came to the rules anyway, as we were still in transition, and could have done as a full EU member regardless), along with the usual bland platitudes about the 'opportunities' we're still missing.

But still, direct quotations and stats are always informative.

So we have the numbers here, but the reasoning is bollocks, the biggest thing that's hurt us on the small boats is losing the Dublin Regulation which we had as an EU member, the ECHR is a red herring and the latest European bogeyman.

Farage has crawled out from under his rock to blame the EU for the consequences of the UK choosing to leave the EU (LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!), but he is correct that you can't argue with the figures on the hit to GDP and the fact that for UK businesses Brexit has just been a big kick in the face.

So yeah it's not a great article, as you'd expect from The Torygraph (one of the major champions of Brexit) they can't possibly accept that the whole thing was a terrible mistake, so they simply dance around it by saying it hasn't been done properly. (Which amusingly, is what right-wingers always accuse lefties of doing when they say Socialism never works and lefties respond by saying it's never been done properly.)

Anyway, it looks like the public have increasingly made up their mind.

Brexit has destroyed multiple Tory Prime Ministers, and now it's going to be part of the reason they lose a general election. Foot, blown off.

It'll be interesting to see what Reform UK does here, they only need to be taking around 10% of the vote, which they will almost exclusively cannibalise off the Tories, to further sink them. Last time Farage started properly snapping at the Tories' heels Cameron shit himself and ultimately gave us Brexit (cheers, Dave), but there is nowhere left for them to go on the right now, we can't leave the EU again and we're already trying to launch refugees at Rwanda in big cannons, so short of declaring a Fourth Reich, I'm not really sure what they can do to head him off.

(This isn't even the worst I've seen recently, one had Labour on 50% and the Tories at 23%.)

 

[mack341]

Not even Farage is arguing with Brexit costing the UK around 4% of its GDP now, and openly conceding that for small and medium sized businesses in the UK, the Brexit 'benefits' are in fact, 'nothing'.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It's not a great article TBH, repeating the absolute falsehood that the UK couldn't have done its vaccine rollout whilst an EU member (which it was when it came to the rules anyway, as we were still in transition, and could have done as a full EU member regardless), along with the usual bland platitudes about the 'opportunities' we're still missing.

But still, direct quotations and stats are always informative.

So we have the numbers here, but the reasoning is bollocks, the biggest thing that's hurt us on the small boats is losing the Dublin Regulation which we had as an EU member, the ECHR is a red herring and the latest European bogeyman.

View attachment 179162

Farage has crawled out from under his rock to blame the EU for the consequences of the UK choosing to leave the EU (LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!), but he is correct that you can't argue with the figures on the hit to GDP and the fact that for UK businesses Brexit has just been a big kick in the face.

View attachment 179163

So yeah it's not a great article, as you'd expect from The Torygraph (one of the major champions of Brexit) they can't possibly accept that the whole thing was a terrible mistake, so they simply dance around it by saying it hasn't been done properly. (Which amusingly, is what right-wingers always accuse lefties of doing when they say Socialism never works and lefties respond by saying it's never been done properly.)

Anyway, it looks like the public have increasingly made up their mind.

Brexit has destroyed multiple Tory Prime Ministers, and now it's going to be part of the reason they lose a general election. Foot, blown off.

It'll be interesting to see what Reform UK does here, they only need to be taking around 10% of the vote, which they will almost exclusively cannibalise off the Tories, to further sink them. Last time Farage started properly snapping at the Tories' heels Cameron shit himself and ultimately gave us Brexit (cheers, Dave), but there is nowhere left for them to go on the right now, we can't leave the EU again and we're already trying to launch refugees at Rwanda in big cannons, so short of declaring a Fourth Reich, I'm not really sure what they can do to head him off.

(This isn't even the worst I've seen recently, one had Labour on 50% and the Tories at 23%.)

View attachment 179164

In that quote Farage calls the claims about GDP and brexit ludicrous, it is difficult to fight back on just because of the nature of the topic, macro economics, appointing blame to one specific event; but take, for instance, Flybe going bust is that most likely down to brexit or the lockdowns?

Many shops closing in the high street, that affects GDP, but its cause is high rents and having to compete with online traders who have less overheads and tax levels. [plus the general downturn due to inflation/cost of living]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Tory billionaire Guy Hands not mincing his words.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

--------------------

Hands, the founder, chair and chief investment officer of the private equity firm Terra Firma, said: “It’s been a complete disaster. The reality is it’s been a lose-lose situation for us and Europe. Europe has lost more [in financial services] but we’ve lost as well. And the reality of

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

was, it was just was a bunch of complete and total lies.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Torygraph not finding much to be happy about either, on this the third anniversary of the UK leaving transition and therefore the EU. Fortunately it's turned out to be the towering success we were told it would be.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

An excellent, if rather depressing article from Ian Dunt.

On some level there's not much left to debate when it comes to Brexit, three years down the line it's delivered nothing but decline for the UK, there are no upsides, no positives, no wins, it hasn't made anything better.

And it's not going to get any better either, because it can't, because Brexit is inherently damaging, you can't fix something that is broken by design. (Shame on Labour for perpetuating the lie that we can 'Make Brexit Work', I mean, I understand why they're doing it, but sooner or later their spinelessness on this issue is going to bite them on the arse.)

Anyway, it's a decent read, and it's almost impossible to disagree with any of it, because fundamentally we're just dealing in facts at this point.

------------------

This is why the polling on Brexit has travelled in one direction and one direction only. There is no mystery to it. It is quite simple: the project has achieved nothing. Someday soon, probably not more than a few years from now, it will be hard to even find people who admit to ever having supported it in the first place. It will join Suez and Iraq in the great pantheon of catastrophic British errors. But as its support ebbs away, we’ll still be left with the scars. Those who inflicted them on us should hang their heads in shame.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Webzcas]

So food price rises, high levels of inflation, energy bills and overall rise in cost of living etc are all to do with Brexit? Funny how the IMF keep publishing grim and dire forecasts, yet the actuality more than often continues to contradict them.

Spending Billions upon Billions on Furlough and shutting down the entire country months on end, plus a small fact Josef Stalin mark II in the Kremlin is committing genocide on a sovereign country in Europe whilst weaponising energy, has of course nothing to do with the situation we now find ourselves in

Don't get me wrong this govt has long run its course and like all political parties, the Tory Party in the main is out for their own. But, I buy the Brexit has destroyed this and that mantra, as much as I buy Nicola Sturgeon's views on Trans prisoners.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

In today's episode of 'Not my fault guv'nor, honest', professional cretin David Davis has decided that it's Whitehall's fault Brexit has turned out to be a big steaming turd, because they did a very bad job of negotiating it. (He appears to have forgotten he was the UK's actual Brexit negotiator at one point, and of course David Frost told us all what a great deal he'd negotiated and signed, and dunover was convinced by this because he told us all here at CM it was a great deal for the UK and Remoaners like me would be eating our hats because it had all turned out splendidly after all.)

As ever, it's interesting to see how the dial has shifted on Brexit, it's impossible to even pretend it's not an absolute disaster for the UK on every conceivable level at this point, so all that's left to do is try and apportion blame.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[mack341]

In today's episode of 'Not my fault guv'nor, honest', professional cretin David Davis has decided that it's Whitehall's fault Brexit has turned out to be a big steaming turd, because they did a very bad job of negotiating it. (He appears to have forgotten he was the UK's actual Brexit negotiator at one point, and of course David Frost told us all what a great deal he'd negotiated and signed, and dunover was convinced by this because he told us all here at CM it was a great deal for the UK and Remoaners like me would be eating our hats because it had all turned out splendidly after all.)

As ever, it's interesting to see how the dial has shifted on Brexit, it's impossible to even pretend it's not an absolute disaster for the UK on every conceivable level at this point, so all that's left to do is try and apportion blame.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

View attachment 179341

Ministers rely on the civil servants to go through the texts, it's literally the machine of govt, davis and frost going off to negotiate on their own with a pro EU team in the background is obviously going to achieve a less than perfect outcome. Imagine a union that was negotiating on behalf of staff but was pro the board of directors?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Ministers rely on the civil servants to go through the texts, it's literally the machine of govt, davis and frost going off to negotiate on their own with a pro EU team in the background is obviously going to achieve a less than perfect outcome. Imagine a union that was negotiating on behalf of staff but was pro the board of directors?

Yeah but Davis didn't even remotely make an effort. We all remember this iconic image, right?

He brought a shit-eating grin to a gunfight.

(Davis is a notoriously lazy politician, doesn't do detail, doesn't commit himself to the task at hand, doesn't get his head around his brief, and we sent him off to negotiate with Barnier, lols.)

 

[bamberfishcake]

Nicola Sturgeon's views on Trans prisoners

I missed that, just googled it; what an imbecile that woman is for such a stupid and inconsiderate suggestion.

 

[mack341]

Yeah but Davis didn't even remotely make an effort. We all remember this iconic image, right?

He brought a shit-eating grin to a gunfight.

(Davis is a notoriously lazy politician, doesn't do detail, doesn't commit himself to the task at hand, doesn't get his head around his brief, and we sent him off to negotiate with Barnier, lols.)

The other bloke has got the same grin too; where are you getting this notoriously lazy bit from, I've never read or heard of that anywhere, bojo yes and it fits his flitting personality, unlikely to be able to sit at a desk for hrs poring over reports and analysis.

Davis is okay, slightly uninspiring but steady.

I think I said before that Barnier was an impressive politician, committed to his role and professional and determined to get the result he sought, we don't seem to do that kind of politician anymore, everything has to be smiles to the camera and fake bonhomie.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The other bloke has got the same grin too; where are you getting this notoriously lazy bit from, I've never read or heard of that anywhere, bojo yes and it fits his flitting personality, unlikely to be able to sit at a desk for hrs poring over reports and analysis.

Davis is okay, slightly uninspiring but steady.

I think I said before that Barnier was an impressive politician, committed to his role and professional and determined to get the result he sought, we don't seem to do that kind of politician anymore, everything has to be smiles to the camera and fake bonhomie.

There have been reports about him for as long as he's been a reasonably prominent politician, and Dominic Cummings famously called him 'as thick as mince and lazy as a toad'. (I'm no big fan of Cummings but he was right at the heart of government and saw all of this stuff first hand.)

Either way, Barnier handed him his arse on a platter.

 

[dunover]

Yeah but Davis didn't even remotely make an effort. We all remember this iconic image, right?

He brought a shit-eating grin to a gunfight.

(Davis is a notoriously lazy politician, doesn't do detail, doesn't commit himself to the task at hand, doesn't get his head around his brief, and we sent him off to negotiate with Barnier, lols.)

Who is the bloke on Davis's right? Talking of grins, he looks like like he's just dropped a big wet fart that will imminently assail the nostrils of the whole room and knows Davis will get blamed.

 

[mack341]

There have been reports about him for as long as he's been a reasonably prominent politician, and Dominic Cummings famously called him 'as thick as mince and lazy as a toad'. (I'm no big fan of Cummings but he was right at the heart of government and saw all of this stuff first hand.)

Either way, Barnier handed him his arse on a platter.

"Cummings said in a tweet that “DD [Davis] is manufactured exactly to specification as the perfect stooge for [Cabinet Secretary Jeremy] Heywood: thick as mince, lazy as a toad, & vain as Narcissus.” Heywood is the head of the U.K. civil service and has been chief fixer to four successive British prime ministers."

Cummings was of the opinion the civil service needed reform, without this we're going to underachieve, Davis was certainly not the kind to go in and disrupt the established setup, I've got mixed feelings about Cummings [being a big pal of Gove is a downside] but he's quite astute.

 

[mack341]

I seem to recall the othe guy might be called Ollie or something!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Last August, Joe Biden signed the 'Inflation Reduction Act' into law, this gave some $370bn worth of tax breaks and subsidies to new green technologies and endeavours, electric car production, green energy technology and so on. The hook was that the companies have to do their stuff in the USA, bolstering the US economy, to get the tax breaks and subsidies. It's basically a massive state aid programme, designed to see the USA be a world leader in that space, and keeping China at bay.

The EU were a bit miffed as this isn't particularly 'free trade'-esque. but the USA had made it clear it was going to look after its own shit.

The UK, no longer being a member of the EU, and having got fuck all in terms of a trade deal with the USA, basically asked them not to hurt us too much. When Hunt said he had 'some concerns' he meant they were absolutely going to eat us for breakfast.

Well now the EU has come up with its response, and it's basically fighting fire with fire, including state aid, which isn't supposed to be allowed under the EU free trade rules, but they can't let the USA eat their lunch, so they're just saying fuck it.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You can see the problem here, the US economy is mahoosive, the EU is the largest single trading bloc in the world, and they've both just said they're going to throw hundreds of billions at new green tech, which was about the only thing the UK had to pin its hopes on.

They've both got loads more money than us, they've both got far more clout on the world stage, and part of the EU plan is quicker and nimbler regulation, and whoever's going to be making all this new stuff is going to want to be doing it all where the regulations are being made and the trade is frictionless as possible - and of course where the subsidies and tax breaks are. (Which won't be the UK, because we're not in the EU any longer.)

The UK will be nowhere in this fight, this is what happens when you deliberately choose to be a small fish in a large pond, that also has several much larger fish in it.

The UK's economy is already in the shitter, we don't have the cash or the presence to take on the USA and the EU, we're trapped in the middle, with no influence and no say in what either the USA or the EU do.

We've lost this fight already, we didn't even get into the ring, we were never on the scorecard.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just one more Brexit mate, that'll sort it. Predictable from the Torygraph, but still rather depressing. The UK was instrumental in setting up the ECHR, Winston Churchill was a powerful advocate for it, and British lawyers drafted much of the texts on which it's based.

Ahhh, who remembers the good old days when we were told we couldn't protect our borders whilst in the EU.

 

[mack341]

Just one more Brexit mate, that'll sort it. Predictable from the Torygraph, but still rather depressing. The UK was instrumental in setting up the ECHR, Winston Churchill was a powerful advocate for it, and British lawyers drafted much of the texts on which it's based.

Ahhh, who remembers the good old days when we were told we couldn't protect our borders whilst in the EU.

The answer is in the summary, original remit, once a lot of willing legal folk and politicians on the far end of the political scale used it for their own 'utopian' ends, it became desirable to leave.

Similar, in an early way, to the situation arising in Hungary, EU liberals are being thwarted from getting their kind of judges in, so kick up a stink and withhold important levels of funding as a blackmail tactic.

 

[pinnit2014]

Sexit:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Unfortunately, the Party has a few fruit and nuts to go around. The likes of Yousaf gets promoted with each blunder, so will have seen stranger things if he goes for it. Heaven help us all. Though, with the likes of Swinney and Forbes in the ring as well, it doesn't get any more uninspiring.

Apparently, she's 'Had Enough'. -now she knows what we all feel like.

The bungling of the Transgender row certainly didn't help her - a rare dropping of the ball by her and a misgauging of opinion imo.

 

[paul7388]

Sexit:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Unfortunately, the Party has a few fruit and nuts to go around. The likes of Yousaf gets promoted with each blunder, so will have seen stranger things if he goes for it. Heaven help us all. Though, with the likes of Swinney and Forbes in the ring as well, it doesn't get any more uninspiring.

Apparently, she's 'Had Enough'. -now she knows what we all feel like.

The bungling of the Transgender row certainly didn't help her - a rare dropping of the ball by her and a misgauging of opinion imo.

Yousaf gets my vote for First Minister. Put him in charge and the party will be finished for good.

 

[pinnit2014]

If there's one person who can really screw up things from nothing, it's Yousaf

And, for that very reason, i'll be out campaigning for him

 

[paul7388]

If there's one person who can really screw up things from nothing, it's Yousaf

And, for that very reason, i'll be out campaigning for him

Have I missed something.

Thought you had jumped on the independence band wagon and were now wanting it.

Not that it matters now as can not see it happening anytime soon.

 

[pinnit2014]

Have I missed something.

Thought you had jumped on the independence band wagon and were now wanting it.

Not that it matters now as can not see it happening anytime soon.

I don't really have any inkling either way. I can see why folk would want it (reasonable leaders North of the Border having to wait until Westminster announces x,y,z before they can set their own budget), but i wouldn't want it in the hands of the type of socialism espoused by the SNP, who's whole policy is basically: regulation and taxation.

 

[Webzcas]

I'll just leave this here

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'll just leave this here

View attachment 180184

Ahhhh yes there will be no fresh food shortages after Brexit, as Michael Gove assured us and Nigel Farage said was Project Fear Mark Two on Steroids.

As ever with these things, Brexit isn't the whole reason, but it's certainly a significant aggravating factor.

In the case of tomatoes, post-Brexit we became massively more dependent on Moroccan tomatoes, and this has worked well in the main up to now, but there have been some problems with harvests in other countries recently, so Morocco has simply diverted a lot of its tomatoes to the EU, which it can sell into far more easily and cheaply than the UK, and therefore far more profitably, and once its produce is inside the EU, it can cross borders with no difficulty whatsoever.

In essence, the UK is now at the back of the queue for produce, so when supply is constrained, we get last dibs on stuff, which is why there is no shortage of fresh produce anywhere in the EU, but here in little old third country UK, we've got major supermarkets RATIONING FUCKING VEGETABLES.

Seriously, when was the last time you can ever remember this happening? And here we are just three years out of the EU (as in completely out, with transition having finished), and we're being told to eat turnips instead of tomatoes.

Also, the UK having the highest energy prices in Europe doesn't help either, we could grow our own produce all year round in glass houses, but electricity is so fucking expensive it's not economically viable for farmers to do so.

Couple of decent threads about it here:

 

[dunover]

Ahhhh yes there will be no fresh food shortages after Brexit, as Michael Gove assured us and Nigel Farage said was Project Fear Mark Two on Steroids.

As ever with these things, Brexit isn't the whole reason, but it's certainly a significant aggravating factor.

In the case of tomatoes, post-Brexit we became massively more dependent on Moroccan tomatoes, and this has worked well in the main up to now, but there have been some problems with harvests in other countries recently, so Morocco has simply diverted a lot of its tomatoes to the EU, which it can sell into far more easily and cheaply than the UK, and therefore far more profitably, and once its produce is inside the EU, it can cross borders with no difficulty whatsoever.

In essence, the UK is now at the back of the queue for produce, so when supply is constrained, we get last dibs on stuff, which is why there is no shortage of fresh produce anywhere in the EU, but here in little old third country UK, we've got major supermarkets RATIONING FUCKING VEGETABLES.

Seriously, when was the last time you can ever remember this happening? And here we are just three years out of the EU (as in completely out, with transition having finished), and we're being told to eat turnips instead of tomatoes.

Also, the UK having the highest energy prices in Europe doesn't help either, we could grow our own produce all year round in glass houses, but electricity is so fucking expensive it's not economically viable for farmers to do so.

Couple of decent threads about it here:

So how do you explain why the shortage is occurring in IRELAND too then, a lucky wonderful EU state?

Maybe it's because the growers in Spain favour their domestic markets first off, the Moroccans the closest markets so when the bad frosts hit and crops are ruined the production goes there....

Do your homework - we actually get a lot of those toms and cucs from HOLLAND where polytunnel production has gone down, yes due to their growers not being able to cover fuel/energy bills with the margins they have...

As usual, your bullshit by omission, copy-and-paste favourable script while ignoring the rest. You should be DG of the BBC mate.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So how do you explain why the shortage is occurring in IRELAND too then, a lucky wonderful EU state?

Maybe it's because the growers in Spain favour their domestic markets first off, the Moroccans the closest markets so when the bad frosts hit and crops are ruined the production goes there....

Do your homework - we actually get a lot of those toms and cucs from HOLLAND where polytunnel production has gone down, yes due to their growers not being able to cover fuel/energy bills with the margins they have...

As usual, your bullshit by omission, copy-and-paste favourable script while ignoring the rest. You should be DG of the BBC mate.

N0tH1nG T0 dO W1tH Br3Xit M8!

 

[dunover]

N0tH1nG T0 dO W1tH Br3Xit M8!

Churlish. Ignored my point about RoI experiencing the same shortages, EU state. Mmm...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Brexit, pictured yesterday, today, tomorrow, and every day from now until infinity.

(For our younger readers, that's Shaggy, whose most famous song was called 'It wasn't me'.)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

And here's James O'Brien destroying the whole Brexit farce in under ten minutes. The lies, the bluster, the broken promises, the huffing and puffing, the profound wrongness about absolutely everything, the circular firing squads of blame, the lashing out at anyone and everyone, anything except looking at itself and realising that it got everything it ever wanted, and it's a big pile of shit - and looking for what it can set on fire next, the next boogeyman.

Y'know, I'd have the utmost respect for any Brexiteer (and they are out there) who would at least have the decency to put their hand up and say, 'Sorry, that was a mistake, we fucked up, I got taken for a ride, what can we do to start to try and fix it?'.

But nope, it's just NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT MATE.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Churlish. Ignored my point about RoI experiencing the same shortages, EU state. Mmm...

I expressly indicated in my post that Brexit isn't the whole reason for the shortages in the UK, but cited it as an aggravating factor, which anyone who knows anything about the situation (far better than me, those pesky 'experts' we're all so fed up with), all seem to agree on.

 

[mack341]

Brexit, pictured yesterday, today, tomorrow, and every day from now until infinity.

(For our younger readers, that's Shaggy, whose most famous song was called 'It wasn't me'.)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

And here's James O'Brien destroying the whole Brexit farce in under ten minutes. The lies, the bluster, the broken promises, the huffing and puffing, the profound wrongness about absolutely everything, the circular firing squads of blame, the lashing out at anyone and everyone, anything except looking at itself and realising that it got everything it ever wanted, and it's a big pile of shit - and looking for what it can set on fire next, the next boogeyman.

Y'know, I'd have the utmost respect for any Brexiteer (and they are out there) who would at least have the decency to put their hand up and say, 'Sorry, that was a mistake, we fucked up, I got taken for a ride, what can we do to start to try and fix it?'.

But nope, it's just NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT MATE.

It's only remoaners and their friends in the media that keep trying to stir the pot on brexit, no doubt they'll be problems and teething issues that need addressing but at least you can make attempts to do so, you have agency.

EU membership would bring the UK problems that cannot be addressed or fixed, David Cameron once tried to raise the issues with colleagues in brussels and received the middle finger.

Brefings for britain:

The UK has already avoided 7,391 new EU laws
The UK left the EU on 31 January 2021. Since that date a search of the EU’s legal database shows that the EU has enacted 7,391 new laws. [xli] In addition to that there are thousands more pieces of ECJ case law and EU decisions that would all have been binding.[xlii]

I think this part of the EU ploy, tie countries up in so much law they cannot unravel it and so leaving is made much harder, as the EU has changed the actual landscape of how things are done in each country to the EU's way.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's only remoaners and their friends in the media that keep trying to stir the pot on brexit, no doubt they'll be problems and teething issues that need addressing but at least you can make attempts to do so, you have agency.

EU membership would bring the UK problems that cannot be addressed or fixed, David Cameron once tried to raise the issues with colleagues in brussels and received the middle finger.

Brefings for britain:

The UK has already avoided 7,391 new EU laws
The UK left the EU on 31 January 2021. Since that date a search of the EU’s legal database shows that the EU has enacted 7,391 new laws. [xli] In addition to that there are thousands more pieces of ECJ case law and EU decisions that would all have been binding.[xlii]

I think this part of the EU ploy, tie countries up in so much law they cannot unravel it and so leaving is made much harder, as the EU has changed the actual landscape of how things are done in each country to the EU's way.

7,391 laws eh? I bet you could name at least your top ten of those that you personally find objectionable, just like back on the very first pages of this thread where it was ALL THEM EU LAWS INNIT and then no one can name a single one they can't wait to get rid of.

As for Remoaners stirring the pot, come on mack you're having a laugh, as right this moment the ERG headbangers and DUP along with the rest of the usual suspects are actively involved with debasing the Prime Minister and his plans to try and get the NIP sorted out, whilst Boris Johnson is indeed actively stirring things up again, suggesting he won't support Sunak as Sunak tries to abide by the rules of THE EXACT DEAL THAT JOHNSON HIMSELF SIGNED OFF ON.

How you can look at that scenario and say, 'Bloody Remoaners, always stirring things up' I really don't know.

Also, you've been trotting out the 'teething issues' line for a while now, we're over three years down the line at this point (i.e. fully out including transition), will they still be teething issues after five years, ten years? What's the time limit whereby you might actually concede it's just a big pile of crap that's never going to work.

I know you won't watch the James O'Brien clip I linked above, but it takes him less than ten minutes to demolish the whole edifice of Brexit and the nonsensical lies it was built on.

 

[goatwack]

Much as I find him objectionable at the best of times, I did subject myself to that 10- minute O'Brien excerpt a few hours ago, and felt he made a reasonably compelling argument. I just didn't wanna say

And whilst no doubt steeped in truth, I did find there a little bit of conflating 13 years of Tory rule with the separate entity of Brexit itself. Albeit it has been enacted under Tory stewardship, and gone through various incarnations and 'pass the parcel' leadership changes, of which many of those can't even agree on anything themselves!

Health care, food shortages, and many more travails, no doubt hampered by the cultural phenomenon known as the British European Union Exit, aka Britflee. But I can see that whilst stalled in its current guise, and used as a weapon for Tories to clobber each other with, when not using the NHS for that purpose, once again, I wouldn't put it on such a pedestal in its resultant detrimental effect on our dying public sectors, as someone like James O'Brien might

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Much as I find him objectionable at the best of times, I did subject myself to that 10- minute O'Brien excerpt a few hours ago, and felt he made a reasonably compelling argument. I just didn't wanna say

And whilst no doubt steeped in truth, I did find there a little bit of conflating 13 years of Tory rule with the separate entity of Brexit itself. Albeit it has been enacted under Tory stewardship, and gone through various incarnations and 'pass the parcel' leadership changes, of which many of those can't even agree on anything themselves!

Health care, food shortages, and many more travails, no doubt hampered by the cultural phenomenon known as the British European Union Exit, aka Britflee. But I can see that whilst stalled in its current guise, and used as a weapon for Tories to clobber each other with, when not using the NHS for that purpose, once again, I wouldn't put it on such a pedestal in its resultant detrimental effect on our dying public sectors, as someone like James O'Brien might

Honestly, I'm not always the biggest fan of him myself, his tone and approach can be rather grating sometimes, but I guess if you've been calling out the Brexit lies and nonsense for as long as he has, and to be, let's face it, pretty much completely vindicated on every single count - you're going to come across as a bit of an arrogant cockwomble sometimes.

However, he does often hit the nail on the head, as he does in the clip linked above.

I can see Brexit consuming another Tory PM at this rate, as Sunak, like all those before him, comes up across the immovable object of the die-hard loonies in his party who despite having got everything they've wanted so far, are still unhappy and still want to set fire to more things, convinced that the TRUE BREXIT WINS are just around the next corner. Let's blow up the ECHR! One of Winston Churchill's proudest achievements.....

I think it is fair to roll in the whole thirteen years thing too, because Brexit is definitely part of thirteen years of dysfunctional rule, and in particular the ravages of austerity, which rightly made many people very angry, but they got angry with the wrong thing.

If you get a chance to read it goaty, and you're minded to, I'd really recommend this book, it lays out very clearly how Brexit is inextricably intertwined with the gobsmacking incompetence and corruption of successive Tory governments since 2010. It might actually be quite hard to find a copy at the moment though, as it's sold really well so they're having to do some more print runs.

(It's also very funny too!)

 

[goatwack]

Honestly, I'm not always the biggest fan of him myself, his tone and approach can be rather grating sometimes, but I guess if you've been calling out the Brexit lies and nonsense for as long as he has, and to be, let's face it, pretty much completely vindicated on every single count - you're going to come across as a bit of an arrogant cockwomble sometimes.

However, he does often hit the nail on the head, as he does in the clip linked above.

I can see Brexit consuming another Tory PM at this rate, as Sunak, like all those before him, comes up across the immovable object of the die-hard loonies in his party who despite having got everything they've wanted so far, are still unhappy and still want to set fire to more things, convinced that the TRUE BREXIT WINS are just around the next corner. Let's blow up the ECHR! One of Winston Churchill's proudest achievements.....

I think it is fair to roll in the whole thirteen years thing too, because Brexit is definitely part of thirteen years of dysfunctional rule, and in particular the ravages of austerity, which rightly made many people very angry, but they got angry with the wrong thing.

If you get a chance to read it goaty, and you're minded to, I'd really recommend this book, it lays out very clearly how Brexit is inextricably intertwined with the gobsmacking incompetence and corruption of successive Tory governments since 2010. It might actually be quite hard to find a copy at the moment though, as it's sold really well so they're having to do some more print runs.

(It's also very funny too!)

People call me impulsive - I disagree

Though thanks to your cunning ploy, I didn't hesitate. All in all I'm pretty pleased at having nabbed a copy from my custodians, Amazon.

God damn you Chopley

 

[ChopleyIOM]

People call me impulsive - I disagree

Though thanks to your cunning ploy, I didn't hesitate. All in all I'm pretty pleased at having nabbed a copy from my custodians, Amazon.

God damn you Chopley

View attachment 180246

Hope you enjoy it! It's a highly entertaining but also very informative read. Also, quite hard to argue with as he cites a source for every single claim/assertion that he makes. (Which are all detailed at the back of the book, nearly 150 pages of them!)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Churlish. Ignored my point about RoI experiencing the same shortages, EU state. Mmm...

There's a decently nuanced piece about it here, I know nuance isn't really your thing but give it a go, you might like it! The guy calls out New Labour from their time in office as being very blasé about it all (although admittedly they did have the Single Market to rely on), and also how the Tories have been terrible on UK food security, whilst also taking us out of the Single Market.

Once more (with feeling!), Brexit isn't the whole problem and no one's trying to say it is, but to say it's got nothing to do with it either is dumb ostrich level stuff.

Don't be an ostrich, be a smarty-pants, or at least, an ostrich wearing smarty-pants.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

As for the bankers, as I said good luck to them. Now tell me, how has the fact that they are going to get some fat bonuses going to detrimentally effect you or how is it going to detrimentally effect the country?

I explained this with an earlier reply, but here is GARY setting out very clearly why normal people get hurt when the rich get richer and everyone else stands still or gets poorer. (And how, even if you are standing still, you're getting poorer regardless.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This weekend's Brexit gift is the UK paying half a billion quid to build a detention centre for migrants in France, whilst also being told by France to fuck off when we asked them to replicate some of the Dublin Regulation framework we lost when we stropped out of the EU and lost the legal right to, erm, return migrants to France (or any other EU country).

So what was enshrined as an EU member as a right (that we absolutely did exercise), now costs us hundreds of millions of pounds and doesn't even come close to replacing what we lost.

Brexit in a nutshell.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Decent quick explainer, we're literally just chucking half a billion quid into France's government budget and will get nothing out of it.

 

[mack341]

I think we should've linked this issue to fishing rights and permits, as part of the brexit deal if possible.

Depending on where they build this migrant centre [calais? the french coast] it could send out the wrong signal, more like another magnet.

And why specify 'small boats', so arriving by a big boat is hunky-dory?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think we should've linked this issue to fishing rights and permits, as part of the brexit deal if possible.

Depending on where they build this migrant centre [calais? the french coast] it could send out the wrong signal, more like another magnet.

And why specify 'small boats', so arriving by a big boat is hunky-dory?

Well this is part of the problem, if you effectively eliminate all official means for seeking asylum (as the Tories have done), other methods will emerge to meet the demand, which has culminated in the explosion of incredibly dangerous channel crossings in small boats. These are people who are risking their lives in incredibly dangerous circumstances to get to the UK, so it'd be far better to do it officially and through a proper process, so that we have oversight of what's going on and who's coming in.

Brexit has made all of this much worse, because we lost the Dublin III Regulations and didn't replace them with anything, which has made the UK more attractive as a destination, as Chris Grey explains.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So it looks almost certain that the Windsor Framework will get through the Commons today, Labour and Lib Dems have both said they'll support it, and the ERG/DUP/etc don't seem to have the numbers to stop it.

This is a good thing, the Windsor Framework is a definite improvement on the NIP and for all the hot air that imbeciles like Redwood and Francois might like to blow about it, it's also got the support of most people in Northern Ireland too.

It was nice to watch Peter Kyle hand Redwood his arse on a plate.

 

[mack341]

Imagine the opposite happening if the country had voted to remain, it is impossible you can't, this is just another establishment stitch-up. At this rate there will have been no point, all brexit will have given us is the freedom to change the colour of passport. Stopping freedom of movement is big but then we still have a massive immigration problem. [The govt have announced another 2 billion to fund accommodation in hotels etc..]

This windsor framework, and the protocol before, are like one of those 'reverse engineer' processes. Still it is nice that when Von der leyen gives a lecture it is not directly to us, though we'll probably end up going in exactly the same direction as the EU on all the bad shit they propose, and just cut out any rare good stuff they may do because it would be a 'burden' on our companies. Plus we save at least £10 billion in membership fee, not to be forgotten in these dire times.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Imagine the opposite happening if the country had voted to remain, it is impossible you can't, this is just another establishment stitch-up. At this rate there will have been no point, all brexit will have given us is the freedom to change the colour of passport. Stopping freedom of movement is big but then we still have a massive immigration problem. [The govt have announced another 2 billion to fund accommodation in hotels etc..]

This windsor framework, and the protocol before, are like one of those 'reverse engineer' processes. Still it is nice that when Von der leyen gives a lecture it is not directly to us, though we'll probably end up going in exactly the same direction as the EU on all the bad shit they propose, and just cut out any rare good stuff they may do because it would be a 'burden' on our companies. Plus we save at least £10 billion in membership fee, not to be forgotten in these dire times.

You're getting so painfully close to the correct answer mack, 'there will have been no point', what opportunity do you think has been missed, what chance was there for it to have been done better that no else could see?

Short of a No Deal Brexit the abomination that Johnson delivered when he GOT BREXT DONE was about the hardest possible option available, so you can't surely be thinking that 'MORE BREXIT' was the answer?

You've got to the correct answer already, there is no point to Brexit, the problems that needed fixing in the UK could never be fixed by leaving the EU, the problems were caused by six years of ruinous and unnecessary Tory austerity (by the time the 2016 referendum was held), and those problems have only got worse since then, because not only could leaving the EU not fix them, they actually made them worse.

The only variable that's left now is how long it takes for the penny to drop that Brexit was a massive con enacted by the rich for the benefit of the rich, who managed to persuade enough of the electorate to vote against their own best interests. The penny has already dropped truth be told, there's a consistent majority amongst the UK population who think that Brexit was a mistake and should be reversed, and that majority is only going to grow over time.

Brexit is the ultimate lose/lose scenario, those who didn't want it (like me!) aren't happy, and those who did want it (like you ) also aren't happy, did anyone get a positive result out of the entire fiasco?