Brexit - whats the difference.....

Just putting some perspective on it, that's all.

You see, I closely follow the politics in my home country and as I have alluded to a number of times, you may as well watch the UK politics, just in a different language. Same problems such as the influx of immigrants, the standard of living crisis, the handling of Covid. You name it, what we had/have here in the UK is being repeated in Holland and without a doubt in Germany et al.

Blaming Brexit for it, rather gleefully as you do if I may add, is not the answer to the crisis. There are many worldwide factors involved that have absolutely sod all to do with Brexit that is putting pressure on people around the world.

I assure you there's nothing remotely gleeful about it, the UK choosing to blow its own feet off has been a source of dismay to me ever since the referendum result was announced. That 'Project Fear' has turned into 'Project Reality' is a simple statement of fact.

There's no pleasure in 'I told you so' when the subject of that statement is the weakening on the world stage of an entire nation, which is what the UK has done. That's not even the fault of those who voted to leave, it was May and Johnson who decided to take the UK down the calamitous 'Hard Brexit' route, where more capable politicians could have delivered on the result of the referendum without slipping a noose around the country's neck.

What does slightly irk me is people arguing, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, that black is white, up is down, 2+2=5 and It's Nothing To Do With Brexit Mate, which I honestly think should be the epitaph for some folks.
 
I assure you there's nothing remotely gleeful about it, the UK choosing to blow its own feet off has been a source of dismay to me ever since the referendum result was announced. That 'Project Fear' has turned into 'Project Reality' is a simple statement of fact.

There's no pleasure in 'I told you so' when the subject of that statement is the weakening on the world stage of an entire nation, which is what the UK has done. That's not even the fault of those who voted to leave, it was May and Johnson who decided to take the UK down the calamitous 'Hard Brexit' route, where more capable politicians could have delivered on the result of the referendum without slipping a noose around the country's neck.

What does slightly irk me is people arguing, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, that black is white, up is down, 2+2=5 and It's Nothing To Do With Brexit Mate, which I honestly think should be the epitaph for some folks.

I disagree. You continue to say that the state of this country is to do with Brexit.

Don't then have a go at people to look at the state of Europe because if we stayed in Europe then, by your reasoning, we would have been much better off.

Take foodbanks as an example. Usuage here in the UK has gone up, but it also has in Holland:
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There are many more comparisons that I can make. Things that have gone "tits up" here in Blighty have equally gone tits up in Europe.

By your reasoning if we had stayed in Europe we would be on the same standard as them, but that then includes increased proverty, increased fuel prices, increased cost of living etc.
 
I disagree. You continue to say that the state of this country is to do with Brexit.

Don't then have a go at people to look at the state of Europe because if we stayed in Europe then, by your reasoning, we would have been much better off.

Take foodbanks as an example. Usuage here in the UK has gone up, but it also has in Holland:
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There are many more comparisons that I can make. Things that have gone "tits up" here in Blighty have equally gone tits up in Europe.

By your reasoning if we had stayed in Europe we would be on the same standard as them, but that then includes increased proverty, increased fuel prices, increased cost of living etc.

With respect interlog, I don't say 'the state of this country is to do with Brexit', I never have, and I never will, because blaming everything that ails the UK on a single factor (be it Brexit or Covid or war in Ukraine or whatever) is clearly stupid.

What I do say is that Brexit is making things worse, it's an extra drag on the UK and its economy, at a time when we really could do without it. Rejoining the Single Market and Customs Union would fix an awful lot of that, but the UK could remain outside the EU. (Admittedly that involves some compromises that very Brexity types won't like, and Farage will pop a theatrical gasket (whilst secretly being delighted that something is happening that makes him vaguely relevant again, so he can stop hawking his horrible gin), but there's an increasing acceptance in many circles now that the UK is seriously suffering outside the Single Market, it's not something that will correct itself, it's not something that will ease over time, it's a never-ending fire that we can't put out.)

There's a decent thread here, will only take anyone a couple of minutes to read it.

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With respect interlog, I don't say 'the state of this country is to do with Brexit', I never have, and I never will, because blaming everything that ails the UK on a single factor (be it Brexit or Covid or war in Ukraine or whatever) is clearly stupid.

What I do say is that Brexit is making things worse, it's an extra drag on the UK and its economy, at a time when we really could do without it. Rejoining the Single Market and Customs Union would fix an awful lot of that, but the UK could remain outside the EU. (Admittedly that involves some compromises that very Brexity types won't like, and Farage will pop a theatrical gasket (whilst secretly being delighted that something is happening that makes him vaguely relevant again, so he can stop hawking his horrible gin), but there's an increasing acceptance in many circles now that the UK is seriously suffering outside the Single Market, it's not something that will correct itself, it's not something that will ease over time, it's a never-ending fire that we can't put out.)

There's a decent thread here, will only take anyone a couple of minutes to read it.

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But you do it every single time. Some bad news story in the UK, bang it goes in the Brexit thread. It almost feels like you get some kick out of it.

But when others then respond and say, but the same is happening in Europe (such as the Euro down on the Dollar just as the £ is down on the dollar, a trade deficit just like the UK etc.) you then attempt to defend it off with "look at that bee" or something like that.

It is you pinning every bad news story on Brexit, still a gleefully and "told you so" attitude in my opinion.
 
But you do it every single time. Some bad news story in the UK, bang it goes in the Brexit thread. It almost feels like you get some kick out of it.

But when others then respond and say, but the same is happening in Europe (such as the Euro down on the Dollar just as the £ is down on the dollar, a trade deficit just like the UK etc.) you then attempt to defend it off with "look at that bee" or something like that.

It is you pinning every bad news story on Brexit, still a gleefully and "told you so" attitude in my opinion.

But once again interlog I'd have to disagree, the three politics threads I'm active in are the General Election thread, the Leadership Contest thread and the Brexit thread. (I had to duck out of the Covid thread for my own sanity, IIRC I last posted in there over 18 months ago.)

I'll post in whichever one seems most appropriate, if I think the prime factor involved is Brexit, I'll stick it in here - and I'll go days or weeks without posting in this thread, it's not like I even remotely post every 'Bad News Brexit Story' that crosses my desk as it were, otherwise it really would be a daily cavalcade of awful news. (Feel free to check out the other two politics threads I regularly post to, loads of stuff in both of them that haven't come anywhere near the Brexit thread.)

My post this morning literally opened with this:

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Now you might disagree with my thought process or conclusion (which is fine), but the idea it's just BAD NEWS STORY MUST POST IN BREXIT THREAD IMMEDIATELY doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

The fact that some other European countries are suffering some of the same problems as the UK to a greater or lesser degree (but let's be honest, almost always lesser) really isn't the point, the point is that Brexit is making things worse for the UK, and there's an increasing amount of data to back that assertion up.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I would be absolutely delighted to be proved wrong on this, and that Brexit is in fact giving the UK some unique advantage on the world stage to combat the headwinds it's facing, the problem is there's precisely zero evidence of it. (Unless you're a millionaire banker in London who's just had the cap on his bonuses removed.)
 
The fact that some other European countries are suffering some of the same problems as the UK to a greater or lesser degree (but let's be honest, almost always lesser) really isn't the point, the point is that Brexit is making things worse for the UK, and there's an increasing amount of data to back that assertion up.

But that is just the issue. It was YOU that posted in here about the £ being low against the $ and blame Brexit for it. Is that same Brexit to blame for the Euro doing the exact same things against the $.

It was YOU posting that picture of the boat of immigrants blaming Brexit for it, when in Holland immigration is up and only last week in Sweden a far right anti immigration party is the second largest party of Sweden. Europe is struggling with immigration as much as the UK is, so is Brexit to blame for that too?

Maybe you should actually watch and read some of the European channels and newspapers and perhaps then you will find carbon copy problems of the UK that can't be blamed on Brexit like you blame as much as you can on it.

As for the bankers, as I said good luck to them. Now tell me, how has the fact that they are going to get some fat bonuses going to detrimentally effect you or how is it going to detrimentally effect the country?
 
But once again interlog I'd have to disagree, the three politics threads I'm active in are the General Election thread, the Leadership Contest thread and the Brexit thread. (I had to duck out of the Covid thread for my own sanity, IIRC I last posted in there over 18 months ago.)
And there was me thinking it was because you copped a lot of heat for being an arrogant cockwomble, who took GREAT DELIGHT in saying that you could go for a meal and a pint in your local, while anyone who was not located in the Isle Of MOAN could not.

And why did you do that?
Oh yeah, that's right. You "got frustrated" at the fact that several members of this forum were not prepared to see things from your point of view.
So you resorted to flat out needling people instead for shits and giggles.
And you didn't make any effort whatsoever to hide your glee, did you? No Sir!
When you copped the deserved backlash, you offered up a laughably weak and insincere apology before promptly disappearing for a month.

Still, at least you had the good grace to admit to "ducking out" of the thread. By your standards, that's a stunningly self-critical act :rolleyes:
 
And there was me thinking it was because you copped a lot of heat for being an arrogant cockwomble, who took GREAT DELIGHT in saying that you could go for a meal and a pint in your local, while anyone who was not located in the Isle Of MOAN could not.

And why did you do that?
Oh yeah, that's right. You "got frustrated" at the fact that several members of this forum were not prepared to see things from your point of view.
So you resorted to flat out needling people instead for shits and giggles.
And you didn't make any effort whatsoever to hide your glee, did you? No Sir!
When you copped the deserved backlash, you offered up a laughably weak and insincere apology before promptly disappearing for a month.

Still, at least you had the good grace to admit to "ducking out" of the thread. By your standards, that's a stunningly self-critical act :rolleyes:

Well the good thing here is that the history is still there to see.

So here's the post in question - Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion - Page 443 - Casinomeister Forum

You can read before or after that as you see fit to get some of the context around it.

And here's my 'laughably weak and insincere apology' that I posted the next day - Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion - Page 444 - Casinomeister Forum

Yeah, I fucked up and made a mistake, I owned up to the mistake and I apologised for it, you can read it as 'laughably insincere' if you want, but that is most certainly not the spirit in which it was made.

For further context, here's a post where I was explicitly critical of the approach taken on the IOM, and only made at all because I was accused of 'running away' from the thread - Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion - Page 454 - Casinomeister Forum

And yes this was after I took a break from the thread, but it had nothing to do with 'the backlash', the records will show I continued to post regularly to the thread after 'the backlash', I just honestly gave up in the face of too much anti-science/anti-fact nonsense, a move which many other CM members made in the end too, which is why the thread is now a wasteland.

People can read those and draw whatever conclusions they wish.
 
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But that is just the issue. It was YOU that posted in here about the £ being low against the $ and blame Brexit for it. Is that same Brexit to blame for the Euro doing the exact same things against the $.

It was YOU posting that picture of the boat of immigrants blaming Brexit for it, when in Holland immigration is up and only last week in Sweden a far right anti immigration party is the second largest party of Sweden. Europe is struggling with immigration as much as the UK is, so is Brexit to blame for that too?

Maybe you should actually watch and read some of the European channels and newspapers and perhaps then you will find carbon copy problems of the UK that can't be blamed on Brexit like you blame as much as you can on it.

As for the bankers, as I said good luck to them. Now tell me, how has the fact that they are going to get some fat bonuses going to detrimentally effect you or how is it going to detrimentally effect the country?

The key point here interlog, surely, is that the sales pitch for Brexit was that it was going to make things better, it was going to improve things, it was going to open up new opportunities for the UK once it was freed from the shackles of the EU, and allow the UK to do things that no other country was capable of, because we were moving in a bold new direction.

If we're just at 'well at least we're only as shit as everywhere else' then it's failed on its own terms. Brexit was explicitly pitched as being able to 'fix immigration', we all remember this right?

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There is a general consensus (with data!) now that Brexit has been economically damaging for the UK, depending on the business sector in question the impact could have been anywhere from 'not that bad really' to 'utterly and completely devastating'. I can at least understand, on some basic level, the argument 'Well it was worth it to sort out the immigration problem', but it hasn't even done that.

I didn't blame Brexit for the immigrants in the dinghies, I pointed out that Brexit promised to 'fix it', but it didn't even do that.

So if we're taking the pain from Brexit (and there is certainly pain), then we should be able to point to the rewards as well, the trade-offs that were made, the losses and the wins - but there are no wins, unless dunover's slightly bizarre rant last Christmas about being able to do his farts in freedom counts.

Brexit was never going to survive contact with reality, and so it has proved to be the case.
 
We're going to have to rejoin the Single Market and Customs Union eventually, the only variables are how long it'll take and how much damage the UK's economy will sustain in the interim.

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And this is a surprise??? It was only if Trump was President that a US / UK trade deal would go ahead. The EU do not have a trade deal with the US.

Biden's position on Northern Ireland is diametrically the opposite to the UK in the current wrangling over the EU trying to force the UK from cutting off Northern Ireland.

This is a non story Chopley, which the likes of JoB et al are trying to gain mileage from. Nothing to see here, move along.
 
And this is a surprise??? It was only if Trump was President that a US / UK trade deal would go ahead. The EU do not have a trade deal with the US.

Biden's position on Northern Ireland is diametrically the opposite to the UK in the current wrangling over the EU trying to force the UK from cutting off Northern Ireland.

This is a non story Chopley, which the likes of JoB et al are trying to gain mileage from. Nothing to see here, move along.

Really? Because I remember a trade deal with the US being promised as a major Brexit benefit, and also being heralded as a prime example of what the UK could do on the world stage once it'd left the EU.

Trade deals take years to negotiate, so the idea it could only happen if Trump was president was a pretty risky bet, plus it wouldn't be Trump doing the negotiations, it'd be a US negotiation team.

It doesn't matter what the administration is in the US, they're not going to let the UK throw NI under the bus, and they're certainly not going to accept the UK ripping up the Northern Ireland Protocol.

The EU doesn't need a trade deal with the US like the UK does, the EU is already one of the largest trading blocs in the world, so it can do a lot of trade with itself. The UK decided to leave that trading bloc and impose economic sanctions on itself, a trade deal with the US was promised as being one of the big Brexit wins that the UK could land for itself.
 
Well it is no surprise here. As soon as Biden was elected the chances of a trade deal were non existent. To state otherwise is disingenious.

Besides I am still waiting for godzilla to arrive which project fear promised us.

Everything we are experiencing now is due to the aftermath of the pandemic and Putin’s illegal invasion in Europe.

Yes the pound has fallen against the dollar, but then the Euro is performing worse.

Yes inflation at 9.9% is high, but yet is lower than some EU states levels ie Spain.

Yes we have stacking on the way to Dover, but the French have been performing go slows year after year at Calais and Dunkirk. Don’t believe me just use google.

You can go on and on about what have we done and we need to rejoin. But that isn’t going to even be an option for 25 years or so - when another referendum should be held. That is, if the EU is still around.

So how about instead of bashing the UK, why not put your energies into trying to work with the hand we all have been dealt??
 
So how about instead of bashing the UK, why not put your energies into trying to work with the hand we all have been dealt??

I made a post doing precisely that back in June or July from memory, I'll see if I can find it.

The problem is that until we're honest about the problem, we can't achieve a solution.

It's like, if we're all stood in a boat with a hole in it, and having to constantly bail out water to stop it from sinking, having a discussion about what colour we should paint the mast isn't going to help much. The sensible thing to say there would be, 'Deciding what colour to paint the mast is certainly a legitimate conversation to have at some point, but we should probably fix that hole first'.

I mean, even dunover, during an admittedly rare moment of clarity, was advocating for a more sensible trading arrangement with the EU not that long ago.

It's clear there are no big new trade deals now, or ever, that are going to even remotely repair the damage that leaving the Single Market and Customs Union has caused. So therefore we either have to accept essentially permanent decline and economic weakness for the UK, or, y'know, fix the hole in the boat.

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Don't worry folks, this one is definitely going to work!

So basically, Brexit has been a sack of shit all along, everything since 2016 has been a disaster, and after twelve years of Tory rule we have a 'putrefying' economy - but Truss is going to fix it all and this Brexit will be great!

I for one, am entirely confident that this 37th reboot of Brexit will be a towering success.

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As for the bankers, as I said good luck to them. Now tell me, how has the fact that they are going to get some fat bonuses going to detrimentally effect you or how is it going to detrimentally effect the country?

I meant to reply to this at the time and it dropped out of my mind, so I'll pick it up now if I may, because this is a really important thing to understand, I didn't understand it until relatively recently but once it'd been explained to me by smarter folks than me, and I got my head around it, I understood the significance of it.

Basically it comes down to this, money in and of itself is useless. You can't eat money, you can't live in money, you can't heat your house with money, you can't fill your car up with money - money is simply a token that allows us to purchase actual useful resources.

With money we can buy food, we can eat food.
With money we can rent or buy properties, we can live in properties.
With money we can pay our utility bills, we can heat our homes with electricity, gas, or oil.
With money we can buy petrol/diesel, and fill up our cars to get to work and do the other things we need to do.

You get the idea, money is simply a 'transitory asset' that gives us access to actual meaningful resources. Without that, it's just pieces of paper, there's a reason that a trope of zombie films is hundred dollar bills floating around that everyone ignores, because when money ceases to be able to secure resources, it ceases to have any meaning.

So here's why it matters when the bankers get massive bonuses whilst everyone else in the country gets bugger all.

When the amount of money swirling around increases, the amount of resources doesn't increase along with it. There's no direct correlation between the money supply and, for example, the number of houses that exist.

So we can work out the next bit, what happens when the vast majority of people are getting below inflation pay rises, whilst a few folks up at the top are seeing unfettered growth in their incomes? It's simple, the value of a pound in the pocket becomes less, you need more money to buy the same things you were buying before, from everyday essentials all the way up to hugely expensive purchases such as a house.

So when the Tories gave out a massive tax bonanza to the rich the other week, and uncapped bankers' bonuses, whilst giving a paltry tax cut to everyone else, what's the net effect? Most people get a few quid extra, whilst the already wealthy get loads more, the key point being that 'most people' need to understand that the £100 or whatever they just 'saved', is dwarfed by the tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds that the already wealthy were just gifted, so those people, relatively speaking, just became massively better off and made everyone else poorer - because they have far more of the 'tokens' (money) to compete for scarce resources.

This is why it matters when the rich get richer, because on a fundamental level, we're all still competing for the same resources, money is just a way to secure those resources, which is why home ownership for almost anyone in their twenties now seems like an impossible dream, unless of course their family already has money, in which case the inequality becomes even more entrenched.
 
35 minutes so a bit of an ask, and yes it's GARY again, but this is a guy who worked this shit out in his twenties and is retired in his thirties as a millionaire.

This is a direct timestamped link to a millionaire dreading what's coming down the tracks:

 
I meant to reply to this at the time and it dropped out of my mind, so I'll pick it up now if I may, because this is a really important thing to understand, I didn't understand it until relatively recently but once it'd been explained to me by smarter folks than me, and I got my head around it, I understood the significance of it.

Basically it comes down to this, money in and of itself is useless. You can't eat money, you can't live in money, you can't heat your house with money, you can't fill your car up with money - money is simply a token that allows us to purchase actual useful resources.

With money we can buy food, we can eat food.
With money we can rent or buy properties, we can live in properties.
With money we can pay our utility bills, we can heat our homes with electricity, gas, or oil.
With money we can buy petrol/diesel, and fill up our cars to get to work and do the other things we need to do.

You get the idea, money is simply a 'transitory asset' that gives us access to actual meaningful resources. Without that, it's just pieces of paper, there's a reason that a trope of zombie films is hundred dollar bills floating around that everyone ignores, because when money ceases to be able to secure resources, it ceases to have any meaning.

So here's why it matters when the bankers get massive bonuses whilst everyone else in the country gets bugger all.

When the amount of money swirling around increases, the amount of resources doesn't increase along with it. There's no direct correlation between the money supply and, for example, the number of houses that exist.

So we can work out the next bit, what happens when the vast majority of people are getting below inflation pay rises, whilst a few folks up at the top are seeing unfettered growth in their incomes? It's simple, the value of a pound in the pocket becomes less, you need more money to buy the same things you were buying before, from everyday essentials all the way up to hugely expensive purchases such as a house.

So when the Tories gave out a massive tax bonanza to the rich the other week, and uncapped bankers' bonuses, whilst giving a paltry tax cut to everyone else, what's the net effect? Most people get a few quid extra, whilst the already wealthy get loads more, the key point being that 'most people' need to understand that the £100 or whatever they just 'saved', is dwarfed by the tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds that the already wealthy were just gifted, so those people, relatively speaking, just became massively better off and made everyone else poorer - because they have far more of the 'tokens' (money) to compete for scarce resources.

This is why it matters when the rich get richer, because on a fundamental level, we're all still competing for the same resources, money is just a way to secure those resources, which is why home ownership for almost anyone in their twenties now seems like an impossible dream, unless of course their family already has money, in which case the inequality becomes even more entrenched.
With only paying 10% taxes i'm sure you've had enough money to at least give it a go, no?

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give it a rest chops , I’m not sure if you have noticed that interest rates have rises in parity with the EU ….

Oh yeah , European countries are giving their people 500 euros to offset extra energy bills ..
but you would never have guessed that the UK are doing exactly the same .

Ok what next …

Oh but the pound has gone to shit .. have you seen the war that is going on ? For the last year the USD has been getting stronger , which means that all the other currencies ( including GBP) and your beloved Euro had been getting weaker ..


Ahhh yes , let’s have a look at the current EURUSD price , 0.97999.

Ok so let’s have a look at when that was las the case with the dollar. Hmmm. ….. that would be in December 2002 .


So that was 20 years ago , but for some reason you just want to focus on the UK scenario.


Open your eyes .


The UK still talks to the EU constantly, hence why we have the same energy credit, same covid response on the same day the EU announced restrictions.

The UK still sings from the same hymn sheet even if you don’t realise it .

Did you think post Brexit that the UK would just stop supporting everyone else ??
 
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Chopley , Please give your opinion as to why the Euro is the weakest it has been against the USD for 20 years .
 

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Chopley , Please give your opinion as to why the Euro is the weakest it has been against the USD for 20 years .

With respect, I don't really care, I explained over in the Leadership thread as to why/how I'm so specifically interested in UK politics, moreover, how the Euro is or isn't performing against the dollar makes no difference to the average UK citizen who's struggling with their bills or staring down the barrel of a ruinous increase in their mortgage payments.

I'll make sure to cast an angry vote in the next French election against Macron, or something.

The dollar is very strong at the moment, everyone knows that.

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With only paying 10% taxes i'm sure you've had enough money to at least give it a go, no?

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What would you have me do, send extra cash to the IOM government every month on a voluntary basis?

I pay the taxes required of me as per the laws of the land. When I lived in the UK I did the same.
 
I've double-checked that this is a genuine article on the right-wing, Brexity Telegraph's site and it is, it's not some sort of fake.

This is the kind of honesty that's required now, we need to be charting a course back into the Single Market and Customs Union, with the compromises that requires.

We can stay out of the EU, fine, let's not have that fight - but we need back into the Single Market and Customs Union.

You can read the whole article with SINISTER PAYWALL REMOVER TECHNOLOGY here -
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I question whether this journalist is a brexiteer, here is a 2013 vid [when Cameron was PM] where he is arguing we'd be better off in the EU.

Brexit campaigners could not anticipate a remainer [theresa may] being given the role of negotiating the leaving terms, and a large portion of parliament holding everything up and refusing to accept the REF outcome.

 
I question whether this journalist is a brexiteer, here is a 2013 vid [when Cameron was PM] where he is arguing we'd be better off in the EU.

Brexit campaigners could not anticipate a remainer [theresa may] being given the role of negotiating the leaving terms, and a large portion of parliament holding everything up and refusing to accept the REF outcome.



And he's absolutely correct, economically the UK would have been better off remaining in the EU. You can argue about the rest of it as you wish (sovereignty is more important, for example), but on a purely economic basis Brexit has been damaging for the UK and this was always going to be the case.

The best number we have is that it's cost the UK 4% of its GDP. Permanently.

Moreover, the fact The Telegraph has even published that article is significant in and of itself, what was once considered almost unspeakable (that Brexit has been an absolute disaster on every level) in those corners of the press, is now being openly said.

You can't still be blaming 'Theresa The Remainer' for any of this shit, that won't wash. Ultimately Johnson put through pretty much the hardest Brexit imaginable short of a No Deal outcome, Brexit was 'done' and it was 'done properly' on that basis, the problem isn't that the deal was bad per se (although it was terrible, of course), the problem is that Brexit is bad by design.

I posted this on Page 1 of this thread back in April 2019. I was right. I wish I wasn't.

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And he's absolutely correct, economically the UK would have been better off remaining in the EU. You can argue about the rest of it as you wish (sovereignty is more important, for example), but on a purely economic basis Brexit has been damaging for the UK and this was always going to be the case.

The best number we have is that it's cost the UK 4% of its GDP. Permanently.

Moreover, the fact The Telegraph has even published that article is significant in and of itself, what was once considered almost unspeakable (that Brexit has been an absolute disaster on every level) in those corners of the press, is now being openly said.

You can't still be blaming 'Theresa The Remainer' for any of this shit, that won't wash. Ultimately Johnson put through pretty much the hardest Brexit imaginable short of a No Deal outcome, Brexit was 'done' and it was 'done properly' on that basis, the problem isn't that the deal was bad per se (although it was terrible, of course), the problem is that Brexit is bad by design.

I posted this on Page 1 of this thread back in April 2019. I was right. I wish I wasn't.

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Our economics editor reflects on the ups and downs of 30 years at the Guardian – and why he felt compelled to vote Leave

I don’t regret how I voted because I believe we need to see radical change to the fundamentals of British economy. I think my views are valued by readers, or at least some of them! To me, 2016 was an expression of profound dissatisfaction with the status quo, of which the EU is part.

I’ve always thought Tony Benn got it right about the EU. He thought of it as pro big business, pro multinationals, anti working people, undemocratic and the embodiment of neoliberal economic ideas. I agree with that. I’m not sure, though, that the economic arguments matter all that much in the current Brexit debate. It is more about how people feel about themselves, how they identify themselves. For those on the Remain side, opposing Brexit suggests that they are liberal, internationalist, supporters of modernity and multiculturalism. I see no contradiction in being pro-Brexit and being an internationalist. I have never seen anything especially leftwing about the EU.

[Bear in mind this is from 2019]

Politics dominates economics, and it can be quite depressing when you see the same mistakes being repeated time and time again by the financially powerful. You can often pre-empt what’s going to happen because things happen in waves. People forget what’s come before, and then the same mistakes are made again, sometimes by the same people. It’s happening as we speak, because all the signs point to another financial bubble out there that will leave policymakers scrabbling around for a response when – not if – it pops.

Periods of stability and peace don’t last forever. There is nearly always something bad waiting around the corner. For the last 40 years, the western economy has been run on a free-market, trickle-down basis – there is surely enough evidence to see that that doesn’t work. We should have learned lessons from the financial crash, but we didn’t. In 2016 we had our second opportunity, and we missed that too. Now, the climate emergency means we’re playing with fire. Power structures have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, making change difficult.
 
I'm not entirely sure what the point of quoting a chunk of The Guardian at me is mack, (a publication I already read, subscribe to, and pay for), and I'm well aware what some on the left think of the EU.

My position on this has been the same for a long time, the EU is a flawed organisation but we were better off inside it and trying to effect change from within, than being on the outside with no influence, but still being very much in the EU's orbit and affected by what it does or doesn't do. As the recent market turmoil following Kwarteng's mini-budget showed, you can't isolate yourself in today's interconnected world. and are still subject to forces exerted from elsewhere.

We're on a clock now to rejoining the Single Market and Customs Union, it's going to have to happen sooner or later, and then at some point we'll be back in the EU.

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I'm not entirely sure what the point of quoting a chunk of The Guardian at me is mack, (a publication I already read, subscribe to, and pay for), and I'm well aware what some on the left think of the EU.

My position on this has been the same for a long time, the EU is a flawed organisation but we were better off inside it and trying to effect change from within, than being on the outside with no influence, but still being very much in the EU's orbit and affected by what it does or doesn't do. As the recent market turmoil following Kwarteng's mini-budget showed, you can't isolate yourself in today's interconnected world. and are still subject to forces exerted from elsewhere.

We're on a clock now to rejoining the Single Market and Customs Union, it's going to have to happen sooner or later, and then at some point we'll be back in the EU.

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They were the words of the guardian's economics editor for the last 30 years, imo you haven't engaged with the substance of his points.
 
Whilst there'd always been rumblings of discontent about this that and the other in regards to our standing within the EU, I don't believe for a second that any of those that enacted the 'referendum to leave' envisioned the eventual result.

It was a plaything of the people in power at that time, to humour us, to give us a choice to what was essentially a dead cert.

Probably the very reasons why its process became attritional nonsense as everyone scrambled to grab a chair. It even made Cameron cry :(

Because let's face it, it wasn't at the forefront of your average person's thoughts. The only time it was, was via the concerted media campaign that suddenly sought to split the country in two, and by Jove, they succeeded!

Fact is, a future PM could just as easily rejoin the EU at the earliest convenience and without fanfare, and there'd be nothing people could do about it. Nor would they? Or would they? Would we see millions line up in Central London hurling coins at police? Nah

And were we to have a Brentry Referendum, I'd wager the results to be somewhat 'different', if not purely to spite the farce and handling of Brexit to begin with. That's just how people roll! :laugh:
 
They were the words of the guardian's economics editor for the last 30 years, imo you haven't engaged with the substance of his points.

I'm honestly not sure which bits you think need a response? (I appreciate you've bolded some elements.) Larry Elliott's record on economics isn't amazing TBH (I'm a Guardian reader and supporter, but I'm not uncritical of them), he predicted a house price crash when Covid came to town, for example.

The thing to remember here perhaps mack, is I'm really not the world's biggest fan of the EU by a long chalk, it's a deeply flawed organisation, I just think we were better off in it and advocating for change, than removing ourselves from it and then moaning about it. Forever.
 
If we go back into the EU it proves, yet again, what an absolute shambles democracy in this country is.

And how wasted the words are in this thread.

The country voted to leave, and until that's forgotten there should be no backpedalling into the EU under the guise of 'the peasants were not educated enough to decide for themselves'. How condescending these ridiculous articles are that claim the country is not clever enough to decide.

No matter your IQ, you have a say in your own destiny. That is democracy.
 
I'm honestly not sure which bits you think need a response? (I appreciate you've bolded some elements.) Larry Elliott's record on economics isn't amazing TBH (I'm a Guardian reader and supporter, but I'm not uncritical of them), he predicted a house price crash when Covid came to town, for example.

The thing to remember here perhaps mack, is I'm really not the world's biggest fan of the EU by a long chalk, it's a deeply flawed organisation, I just think we were better off in it and advocating for change, than removing ourselves from it and then moaning about it. Forever.

Blinkin' hell Chop if you're almost a mild proponent of EU membership then I'd dread to have a debate with a determined remainer! :p :laugh:
 
If we go back into the EU it proves, yet again, what an absolute shambles democracy in this country is.

And how wasted the words are in this thread.

The country voted to leave, and until that's forgotten there should be no backpedalling into the EU under the guise of 'the peasants were not educated enough to decide for themselves'. How condescending these ridiculous articles are that claim the country is not clever enough to decide.

No matter your IQ, you have a say in your own destiny. That is democracy.

Democracy is allowed to change its mind, that's why we have a general election every five years!

The country voted to leave, you are entirely correct. And we left. It's happened. And it's..... not been great.

So if, maybe ten or twenty years down the line, the governing party wants to hold a second referendum about EU membership, what's wrong with that? Let the people decide, and if they decide to rejoin (spoiler alert, they will) - then that's democracy, no?

Demographics are against Brexit, the Leave vote was massively skewed towards older people (50+), the young didn't want it, the future is theirs, they should get to have their say.
 
Demographics are against Brexit, the Leave vote was massively skewed towards older people (50+), the young didn't want it, the future is theirs, they should get to have their say.
But if we had another ref and decided to rejoin, you’d be one of the first ones to say that is that, no more refs needed. We’d never hear of your version of democracy again for fear of getting a result you wouldn’t like, again.

You remainer lot could give an aspirin a headache.
 
But if we had another ref and decided to rejoin, you’d be one of the first ones to say that is that, no more refs needed. We’d never hear of your version of democracy again for fear of getting a result you wouldn’t like, again.

You remainer lot could give an aspirin a headache.

Not at all, the essence of democracy is that sometimes it generates results we don't like. When that happens the goal is to win the argument for next time.

I don't actually think the UK would vote for Brexit a second time, it's shored up support for EU membership in the rest of Europe, all they have to do is point at the UK and say, 'See, that's what happens when you leave'.

(Nice Layer Cake line though!)
 
Not at all, the essence of democracy is that sometimes it generates results we don't like. When that happens the goal is to win the argument for next time.

I don't actually think the UK would vote for Brexit a second time, it's shored up support for EU membership in the rest of Europe, all they have to do is point at the UK and say, 'See, that's what happens when you leave'.

(Nice Layer Cake line though!)
You’re trying to judge something after two and a half years (that was always going to take about 10 years to settle anyway), a period in which we saw a pandemic and a conflict in Ukraine. It’s like a football team going 1-0 down after 10 minutes and the whole game being awarded to the opposition. Let’s see where we are in 10 years shall we.

I think if Brexit proves to be the massive failure you expect it to be, most brexiteers will hold their hands up in 10 years time and admit they made a mistake.

You enjoyed decades of closer and closer ties to the EU (without referenda) so I think you can hold your horses for one decade whilst the UK tries to get its house in order and properly wean itself from teet of mommy EU.
 
You’re trying to judge something after two and a half years (that was always going to take about 10 years to settle anyway), a period in which we saw a pandemic and a conflict in Ukraine. It’s like a football team going 1-0 down after 10 minutes and the whole game being awarded to the opposition. Let’s see where we are in 10 years shall we.

I think if Brexit proves to be the massive failure you expect it to be, most brexiteers will hold their hands up in 10 years time and admit they made a mistake.

You enjoyed decades of closer and closer ties to the EU (without referenda) so I think you can hold your horses for one decade whilst the UK tries to get its house in order and properly wean itself from teet of mommy EU.

I'm not too fussed about an early move to rejoin the EU, give it a decade or two, no problem. (The EU wouldn't want us back at the moment anyway, the UK is still far too fractious over it, there'd need to be a pretty solid political and public consensus in favour.)

The bigger problem is being out of the Single Market and Customs Union, that's what's really hurting the UK's economy - that for me is what needs fixing in the short to medium term.
 
I'm not entirely sure what the point of quoting a chunk of The Guardian at me is mack, (a publication I already read, subscribe to, and pay for),
Why, the Morning Star gone bust?
 
Democracy is allowed to change its mind, that's why we have a general election every five years!

The country voted to leave, you are entirely correct. And we left. It's happened. And it's..... not been great.


Demographics are against Brexit, the Leave vote was massively skewed towards older people (50+), the young didn't want it, the future is theirs, they should get to have their say.
Of all the illogical dumb crap you spew out on here, that is most pathetic.

What do you suggest? The 'young' get 2 votes for each one a 40+ person receives? That somehow their opinion is worth more than those who have spent 20+ years paying into the system and have that much more life-experience?

No, it's because you had a hard-on over the 'yoof' at Glastonbury singing "Whoaaa Jeremy Corbyn...." and the traitorous c*nt got has ass handed to him after delivering the worst Labour election since the 1930's.

Never got over that, have you?
 
Of all the illogical dumb crap you spew out on here, that is most pathetic.

What do you suggest? The 'young' get 2 votes for each one a 40+ person receives? That somehow their opinion is worth more than those who have spent 20+ years paying into the system and have that much more life-experience?

No, it's because you had a hard-on over the 'yoof' at Glastonbury singing "Whoaaa Jeremy Corbyn...." and the traitorous c*nt got has ass handed to him after delivering the worst Labour election since the 1930's.

Never got over that, have you?

Definitely one for the wank bank.

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To be fair, at that age I'd have likely (and in fact 'did') vote Labour, no matter how cringeworthy their leader appeared. Most would've simply laughed it off, or been too high to even care.

At that juncture, ALL politicians look the same and act the same, albeit there's a distinction within the Tories in that they appear to be more insular and elitist, and not particularly enthralled at my life prospects.

With Labour they at least gave the impression 'we' were seen, and a bit of bribery never went amiss either, as younger disaffected demographics may well have the idealistic vision, but have diddly- squat in terms of status or financial security. Student help you say? Playstation 4s? Yes please!

So if anything, Corbyn's performance was a tactical masterstroke, albeit I'm still disappointed he didn't appear onstage wearing a backward baseball cap and rapping Fight The Tory Power :(
 
So if, maybe ten or twenty years down the line, the governing party wants to hold a second referendum about EU membership, what's wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's the constant whining and winging from powerful influencers when the dust has not even settled that undermines democracy.
 
The illusion of democracy ain't that different from the illusion of randomness in slotting

- both are pseudo, controlled yet appearing as fair, and end up leaving everyone f***ed :thumbsup:
Amen to that!

Why I don't waste my breath on politics much. The current illusion of democracy is worthy only of my disdain.
 
The thing is, with polling like this (and trust me, this won't ever start going in the other direction), at what point can we legitimately still claim that Brexit is 'the will of the people' or 'enacting democracy'? The question was asked once in 2016, and Leave won by a very slim margin of 52-48, off the back of one of the most dishonest political campaigns I have borne witness to in my entire life.

People don't need 'powerful influencers' to tell them that Brexit is a pile of crap, peddled by a gaggle of liars, they just open their eyes and the evidence is all around them.

Brexit already ISN'T the will of the people any longer, and 'giving it time to bed in' won't change anything, because Brexit is broken by design, it is fundamentally incapable of delivering on any of its promises - and more and more people are waking up to this fact.

If we get to 2026 and the polling is still looking like this, I think it'd be legitimate to go back to the people. Like I said above, the essence of democracy is that it's allowed to change its mind.

It's not like we'd be back in overnight, the question could be framed as something like, 'Should the UK begin the actions necessary to seek re-entry to the European Union', and from there the process could be started, in the event of a Yes vote. (And if 'No' wins then hey, that's the democratic will of the people and fair enough.)

If Brexit is such a great idea it shouldn't be so scary to ask again after ten years, surely?

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I don't think anyone would have any realistic objection after a decade, given that they'd already laid out a referendum in 1975 as to leaving the EU, a whole TWO years after having joined :laugh:

At the same time, I'd love to believe people are more tooled-up and knowledgeable these days than ever before, in this enlightened Information Age we live in. Yet somehow, I think we'd just as likely see another campaign of lies, deception and agenda- laden misinformation from both sides.

Not to mention that many won't consider this incarnation of Britain's EU exodus to have had any meaningful time to prove anything either way, given Covid, Ukraine and various other factors. The road paved post- Brexit has hardly been a smooth one, to put it mildly!
 

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