Brexit - whats the difference.....

If anything needs 'assessing' for definite financial damage, as opposed to projected damage, then look at Corbum's economic suicide note and his road to certain bankruptcy.

If the clown gets anywhere near power the worst Brexit nightmares conjured up by the remoaners would seem like losing a tenner from your wallet, as opposed to the wallet itself. IMF - here we come!
 
Great piece, well worth a read, written by someone who really knows his stuff and has no political axe to grind, he's simply describing reality.

(For the record, he's critical of all UK political parties and leaders, and also the EU.)

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For much of the EU elite, the real mystery of Brexit remains that we were only, as they see it, in one third of the Union since 1992 in any case, having decided to opt out of both Monetary Union and Schengen. Quite a lot of people privately confessed they thought that we had found about the sweetest spot in the EU.

The puzzle for them is why the UK decided to turn its back on the Single Market, having been its most enthusiastic advocate, across all Parties, for 3 decades, and why the U.K. elite still seems determined to want to tell the public that a Free Trade Agreement could replicate all we liked about the “Common Market”, when that is patently untrue, and it’s just a matter of time before that becomes obvious to voters.


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If the Withdrawal Agreement were to pass, we enter into what laughably, Prime Minister May persistently termed this the “implementation period”—the IP—a term still in use by PM Johnson’s Ministers, despite the fact there is nothing to implement.

The reality is that it was and is a “standstill transition period” during which the U.K. carries on being subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ, paying full contributions into the EU Budget, and being obliged to enact on its statute book laws made when no Brit has been in the room—either in the Council of Ministers or the European Parliament—when those laws were passed.

Rather understandably, in my view, this period of “full cost but voiceless and voteless” transition generates a considerable amount of grief on the Conservative benches, where it is widely viewed as an intolerable period of “vassalage” which must be curtailed.

But a serious transition period was always going to be needed during which the Treaty covering the future relationship – trade, economic and security—would be negotiated.

Because, contrary to what senior Ministers, including both the current and the former Prime Minister, as well as those most loudly complaining of vassalage, repeatedly said until well over a year after the referendum, there was no chance whatever of starting negotiating this Treaty until after we had left. Article 50 was always purely about settling the withdrawal issues, and elaborating a loose political framework for the future relationship.


The legal texts necessary for detailing and governing that future relationship were always going to be a matter for the period AFTER our legal exit and for a different negotiation under different articles of the Treaty. This stuff is really not rocket science, unless you are intent on not understanding it. Or perhaps intent on the public not understanding what you are doing.

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It will in other words be harder, not easier, to do Johnson’s Brexit deal than May’s.

As it was already harder to do May’s than to replicate a Norwegian type deal. Or even a Swiss type deal, which has a lot of rule-taking as well as some divergence, but is so legally complicated, with a huge number of legal agreements, that it has been being negotiated and renegotiated over decades, not years.

I had not, incidentally, noticed that Switzerland had ceased to be a proud sovereign nation, and was now SWINO – Switzerland In Name Only. I simply don’t accept the Farage and European Research Group view that the only authentic “real” Brexit must involve much a more radical rupture than Switzerland, which never joined the EU, has ever wanted.

Switzerland has no intention of joining the EU, but it seems to live happily enough with choices on the trade-offs we both face which now get described as treasonous here.

It also lives in a near-constant negotiation with the EU. So will we. Even if we go “no deal”. Maybe it’s time to tell the public that?
 
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Great piece, well worth a read, written by someone who really knows his stuff and has no political axe to grind, he's simply describing reality.

(For the record, he's critical of all UK political parties and leaders, and also the EU.)

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He served in the
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, including as
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, to
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,
In 2003, Rogers was chosen to succeed
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as the
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,
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In 2012, Rogers returned to the civil service as the Prime Minister's Adviser for Europe and Global Issues and the Head of the European and Global Issues Secretariat, based in the Prime Minister's Office at
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(David Cameron)

iu
 
Read the piece and tell me if there's anything in there you think is factually incorrect or biased.

It's one the finest analyses I'd read about the Brexit situation as it was, is, and will be.

Brexit will not 'be done' next year, or the year after that, or the year after that - and so on.

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I also struggle to see PM Johnson wishing to extend.

It’s not primarily that it would involve a screeching U-turn from what he is promising the public and Party now.

He after all has just executed one of those on the backstop question by doing a deal for which he would have excoriated his predecessor for giving way on fundamental principles of constitutional integrity.

The EU noticed that, noticed with some admiration that he nevertheless could sell a Withdrawal Agreement when Mrs May couldn’t – and they frankly never believed she could—and that is why, given he had dropped overnight the stuff on “alternative arrangements” at the Irish border which they viewed as hogwash, they were prepared to jump to the frontstop solution to replace the backstop, despite real qualms as to how on earth you make it operable.

But I think the EU collectively concludes from this that, come the end of 2020, the same story will play out, and that he can be induced to sell a deal stacked in their favour as a U.K. negotiating triumph, if only in order to have done with the issue politically. Or to find a different way to extend purgatory.
But on the question of whether to extend, he surely is most unlikely, just 3 months after the potential start of negotiations, already to have reached the conclusion by June that the following 6 months will not suffice.

He also knows that the moment he extends, he will be straight into a new budgetary negotiation about the U.K’s contribution over the 1 or 2 years of an extension. Which might involve eating lots of words. He further knows that the Right, which will have been strengthened inside his Party if he has won the election, will decry an extension as an intolerable prolongation of vassalage.

I should be very clear indeed here: my point is not – absolutely not – to welcome this thinking on either side of the Channel.

Far from it.

I fear it all points to a repetition next year of exactly the syndrome we have suffered for the last three. And a repetition of the myopia on which ultimately lands us with a poor and deteriorating relationship on multiple things that really matter, economically and strategically.

I am just stating the likelihood—I personally frankly think near-certainty right now—that the incentives on both players now play out this way.

Put crudely, the EU will feel that, in the time available, rather little serious can get done, and will think that is no bad thing, as it can fully exploit UK desperation to get something over the new line. Why not take advantage of yet another Prime Minister who has unwisely boxed himself in?

They are talking up a deal, not because they have become undying fans of Brexiteers but because they can see there’s an opportunity here for something that works pretty nicely in the EU’s interest.

The U.K. will think that the overwhelming political objective is to deliver “full exit” by the end of 2020 (let’s forget the little local difficulty that you told the public that you were “getting Brexit done” the year before.)
So a quick and dirty deal, with precious little substance beyond zero tariffs and quotas has appeal, despite the economic reality that the vast majority of the barriers to trade which we need to keep dismantled are the non-tariff ones. And despite the obvious fact that a tariffs and quotas only deal is obviously more in, say, French and German interests than our own

We could, as in the Spring of 2017, be on tramlines to this rather rapidly.
 
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Put crudely, the EU will feel that, in the time available, rather little serious can get done, and will think that is no bad thing, as it can fully exploit UK desperation to get something over the new line. Why not take advantage of yet another Prime Minister who has unwisely boxed himself in?

So basically Chopley has finally admitted in writing for all to see that the EU is "exploiting" the UK and fully admits the EU has taken "advantage" of the prime ministers.

Thank you Chopley for proving what Brexiters have known all along the EU is a corrupt organisation that wants to take advantage of it's members for their own gain.
 
Except we won't be a member, we'll be an ex-member, and they'll have us over a barrel, and Johnson is going to walk straight into it. Him throwing Northern Ireland under the bus will be chicken feed compared to what's coming next.

And why should the EU not just look after its own interests when an ex-member comes begging to them for a really quick trade deal?
 
Except we won't be a member, we'll be an ex-member, and they'll have us over a barrel, and Johnson is going to walk straight into it. Him throwing Northern Ireland under the bus will be chicken feed compared to what's coming next.

And why should the EU not just look after its own interests when an ex-member comes begging to them for a really quick trade deal?
We are still a member paying into it so they are taking advantage of a member of the club because that member decided to leave and wants to move on to other things in life, that shows how the EU behaves underhand and childish.
 
Somehow the Schengen opt-out failed to stop us rapidly becoming the most densely-populated country in Europe, overtaking Holland because of open labour rules, putting intolerable strain on our services and infrastructure that we are now struggling to pay for and reducing the quality of life for all of us. Oh, and while we're at it, reducing the productivity average per capita consistently. All the taxes those cash-in-hand Roma car-washers, beggars and scrap collectors pay into the system must've really made a difference....
 
We are still a member paying into it so they are taking advantage of a member of the club because that member decided to leave and wants to move on to other things in life, that shows how the EU behaves underhand and childish.

Nonsense.

As a current, paying member, we still enjoy all the benefits of full EU membership.

Once we leave and the negotiations begin, we will be an ex-member, desperately scrabbling to get back a fraction of the benefits we just voluntarily set fire to, against an impossibly tight self-imposed timeline, a county of around 66 million people going up against a bloc of nearly half a billion.

What are you expecting the EU to do, roll over and let us tickle their tummy?
 
Somehow the Schengen opt-out failed to stop us rapidly becoming the most densely-populated country in Europe, overtaking Holland because of open labour rules, putting intolerable strain on our services and infrastructure that we are now struggling to pay for and reducing the quality of life for all of us. Oh, and while we're at it, reducing the productivity average per capita consistently. All the taxes those cash-in-hand Roma car-washers, beggars and scrap collectors pay into the system must've really made a difference....

It's always just about the immigrants really, when it comes down to brass tacks, isn't it?
 
Nonsense.

As a current, paying member, we still enjoy all the benefits of full EU membership.

Once we leave and the negotiations begin, we will be an ex-member, desperately scrabbling to get back a fraction of the benefits we just voluntarily set fire to, against an impossibly tight self-imposed timeline, a county of around 66 million people going up against a bloc of nearly half a billion.

What are you expecting the EU to do, roll over and let us tickle their tummy?
Why is it nonsense we are an EU member paying into the club and paying it some of the biggest amounts I might add until we leave we should be treated equally and fairly as a member not as someone who is going, therefore we continue to expect fair treatment and not be exploited.
 
We're not being exploited now, we're still a member.

During the negotiation period we'll be an ex-member, and the EU will negotiate in the EU's best interests, in the same way you'd expect the UK to negotiate in the UK's best interests, I presume?

None of this is headline news, surely?
 
We're not being exploited now, we're still a member.

During the negotiation period we'll be an ex-member, and the EU will negotiate in the EU's best interests, in the same way you'd expect the UK to negotiate in the UK's best interests, I presume?

None of this is headline news, surely?
You said quite clearly the eu exploited us and our prime ministers
 
You said quite clearly the eu exploited us and our prime ministers

I said no such thing, I quoted a piece by Ivan Rogers who suggested that the EU will exploit the UK's weakness during the transition period to push through an agreement that is beneficial to them. (And remember we will be an EX-MEMBER at this point, just another third country as far as they're concerned, which is what we chose to be.)

They will be able to do this because Boris Johnson is a lying charlatan who will package the 'deal' as being a great personal success for him and the EU will just politely humour him because they'll basically get everything they want.

Read the article. It's somewhat lengthy, but then again Brexit is an incredibly complex process once you get beyond the 'GET BREXIT DONE' horseshit.
 
It's always just about the immigrants really, when it comes down to brass tacks, isn't it?
Nope - it's about RESPONSIBLE immigration. Which various British political figures have banged on about for decades and failed to apply because of the EU. This is why so many want to see a points-based Australian type system.
 
British Poultry Council tells a pack of lies about Brexit-related labour shortage this year because they like making shit up for a laugh.

National Farmers Union also making up a load of crap about Brexit-related labour shortages too, causing tonnes of crops to rot in fields.

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By the way, just to reassure the non-UK readers here:

I went food shopping before Christmas and the shelves were piled high with pigs-in-blankets.

Surprisingly I also found Br*ssel Sprouts, Christmas Pudding, Turkey Crowns, Yule Log, Mince Pies, Broccoli, Carrots, Wine, Beer, Mini Cheddars, Tins of Chocolates, Wine Gums, Jelly Babies, Liquorice Allsorts, Sausage Rolls, Topside of Beef, Gammon to Cook, Gravy Granules, Potatoes (real and frozen), Victoria Biscuit Boxes, Jacob's Cracker Boxes, Stuffing, Bread Sauce, Cauliflower, Pork Scratchings and Napkins. I also found Jeremy Corbyn hiding under a freezer but like everyone else I ignored him and gave him an 'accidental' poke in the ribs with my foot.
 
So you are another Morrisons shopper lol

Well, the predictions of an austerity Christmas dinner of chicken nuggets, cabbage and potato peelings were wrong.
 
Quality video, should've been the Christmas Number One. Imagine the anti-BBC having to edit it...:)
Daz what was that casino you made a £50 deposit on and cashed out about 4K then it folded like a Germans sun lounger? Not related to the thread I know, it’s just for another thread mate.
And that song is majestic.
Should be played all over the airwaves when we tell the EU to fuck off!
 
Daz what was that casino you made a £50 deposit on and cashed out about 4K then it folded like a Germans sun lounger? Not related to the thread I know, it’s just for another thread mate.
And that song is majestic.
Should be played all over the airwaves when we tell the EU to fuck off!
I have shared it with my social media. I have no doubt that some of my friends will hate it and its sentiment.
But if your unable to agree in all things in life but agree over one issue then you are best off joining a cult and shut yourself off from everything else
 
Daz what was that casino you made a £50 deposit on and cashed out about 4K then it folded like a Germans sun lounger? Not related to the thread I know, it’s just for another thread mate.
And that song is majestic.
Should be played all over the airwaves when we tell the EU to fuck off!

You mean my famous 7.2k Bonanza win? Freaky Vegas, who two weeks later were thrown in the pit for affiliate shenanigans.
 
The reality is that Boris has a massive majority and he's going to do exactly what the fuck he wants for the next five years.

The plus side of this is that Brexit will be owned by him and his party, no 'Remainer Parliament' to blame or 'MSM bias' or any of that stuff.

As such we'll see it all pan out over the next five years, and he and the Brexiteers will own it.

(There was a report on Bloomberg yesterday that the total predicted cost to the UK economy of Brexit will exceed all of the UK's contributions to the EU. Ever.)

But yep, Remain lost, Labour lost (badly), Brexit will happen and Boris and the Tories will own it. Let's see what happens.

As long as I've got wine, videogames (especially Hearthstone), fruit machine emulation, slots, access to fanny, and Netflix - I'll cope.
 
The reality is that Boris has a massive majority and he's going to do exactly what the fuck he wants for the next five years.

The plus side of this is that Brexit will be owned by him and his party, no 'Remainer Parliament' to blame or 'MSM bias' or any of that stuff.

As such we'll see it all pan out over the next five years, and he and the Brexiteers will own it.

(There was a report on Bloomberg yesterday that the total predicted cost to the UK economy of Brexit will exceed all of the UK's contributions to the EU. Ever.)

But yep, Remain lost, Labour lost (badly), Brexit will happen and Boris and the Tories will own it. Let's see what happens.

As long as I've got wine, videogames (especially Hearthstone), fruit machine emulation, slots, access to fanny, and Netflix - I'll cope.
Wine - well you do plenty of that in this thread.
Videogames - your lefty friends don't like videogames they corrupt people and make them antisocial
fruit machine and slots well UKGC will soon stop that for you
Access to fanny - well as long as your arm is still the same length you can still reach between your legs so you can still do that.
Netflix - The only one you can guarantee to still be there in 10 years time.
 

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