Brexit - whats the difference.....

[Harry_BKK]

"Brexit: What is the Irish border backstop?" (bbc)

The backstop is a position of last resort, to maintain a seamless border on the island of Ireland. [the uk has stated it has no intention of making changes to the current border arrangements, so it can only be the eu and the republic planning to enforce border checks otherwise there is no issue or threat to the seamless border]

It would involve the UK retaining a very close relationship with the EU for an indefinite period.

It will apply if the UK and EU have not agreed a final deal at the end of a standstill transition period or if that final deal does not guarantee a soft border.

[one has to ask, what would be the likelihood of this if the eu and uk remainer civil service can see the prize of a backstop around the corner where the uk would be tied to the eu indefinitely]

....attorney general Geoffrey Cox, concluded that "the legal risk remains unchanged" that if a post-Brexit trade agreement cannot be reached due to genuinely "intractable differences", the UK would have "no internationally lawful means" of leaving the backstop without EU agreement.


Who in their right mind would agree to such terms, prior to trade deal negotiations, that gave you no legal right to exit and locked you in to an arrangement which took away sovereignty

The EU is using the troubles in N.Ireland and the sensitive issue of the border for political gain, keeping their federalist project going. And it's likely remainers in the higher echelons of the british civil service assisted the EU to come up with this machiavellian plan. All it needed was labour's approval, I can only think it was the lack of a 'free movement of people' clause that meant they chose not to back it.

The EU won't even compromise to set a time limit on a backstop; let's just get out on the 31st and live with tariffs, that's how we trade with most of the rest of the world anyway. The big german and french brands will suffer and I'm sure they won't be happy about that. There is plenty of anti EU sentiment in europe, likely to grow when the EU's mask slips a bit more.

You keep blaming everyone except the party who has the majority in the government and led the negotiations. And those started far before May became PM.

How convenient!

 

[goatwack]

Not the eyerollllllllllllllllllll argghhhhhh

 

[shadow123]

ffs just deliver what the majority voted for or f**k off

 

[Kroffe]

Not the eyerollllllllllllllllllll argghhhhhh

I think both sides have som fair points.
Dont let Harry bully you with the eyerolls or laugh-reaction.
Just get him back with the same.

 

[Borgie]

Should I stay or should I go now - double and trouble and all that stuff

 

[mack341]

You keep blaming everyone except the party who has the majority in the government and led the negotiations. And those started far before May became PM.

How convenient!

Oh no, I blame theresa may's governance too, and our remainer heads of civil sevice. They've got us into this mess, theresa had a nice majority lined up before the general election, only to announce, at almost the last minute, unpopular policies for the elderly conservative voter, thus losing loads of votes to the dems and people deciding not to bother voting. Because of this she had a much smaller working majority than could've been the case.

We've had a spate of crap leaders for donkey's years. Cameron bailed out the next day after the brexit result so he didn't do much negotiating.

Largely there is no negotiating with the EU, that's one of the core problems for the member states and their citizens...

 

[Harry_BKK]

Oh no, I blame theresa may's governance too, and our remainer heads of civil sevice. They've got us into this mess, theresa had a nice majority lined up before the general election, only to announce, at almost the last minute, unpopular policies for the elderly conservative voter, thus losing loads of votes to the dems and people deciding not to bother voting. Because of this she had a much smaller working majority than could've been the case.

We've had a spate of crap leaders for donkey's years. Cameron bailed out the next day after the brexit result so he didn't do much negotiating.

Largely there is no negotiating with the EU, that's one of the core problems for the member states and their citizens...

Why should there be a lot of negotiations in the first place?

The EU has very clear statutes for its members. Anyone wanting to leave has a clear path through Art 50. These are rules most countries, including the UK, assisted in writing and all agreed to.

The problems came mainly from your delusional negotiators who thought the UK was entitled to special treatment. Can you explain on a factual basis why the UK should have been given preferential status?

 

[TheAddict]

Merkel would be proud

 

[bluebirdy]

Why should there be a lot of negotiations in the first place?

Its in article 50

The EU has very clear statutes for its members. Anyone wanting to leave has a clear path through Art 50. These are rules most countries, including the UK, assisted in writing and all agreed to.

And?

The problems came mainly from your delusional negotiators who thought the UK was entitled to special treatment. Can you explain on a factual basis why the UK should have been given preferential status?

so the uk just leaves? can you show me where in Article 50 is the part we cant ask for anything

 

[mack341]

Why should there be a lot of negotiations in the first place?

The EU has very clear statutes for its members. Anyone wanting to leave has a clear path through Art 50. These are rules most countries, including the UK, assisted in writing and all agreed to.

The problems came mainly from your delusional negotiators who thought the UK was entitled to special treatment. Can you explain on a factual basis why the UK should have been given preferential status?

Not sure, I think it was theresa may and remainers like philip hammond's fault, on paper they wanted to say 'we've left the EU' but in reality not to have done. I haven't read these statutes but if it clearly lays out a process, goodness knows why we just haven't done it and still sat here 3 years later with another deadline and endless hysteria from the liberal mass media.

To the 2nd bold part above, some relevant points come to mind: firstly the eu has a trade surplus with the uk, we send more money their way via trade than they do to us (good customers always get preferential treatment and terms); secondly, more importantly to me, for historical reasons.

For example, bailing out france and most of europe twice in the last century, with all that that entailed, to then treat the uk in the same way as paraguay or another unrelated, far flung country would be dishonourable behaviour in my eyes. [but I sense the kind of unelected bureaucrats we are dealing with are the dishonourable, ungrateful type... grubby, immoral individuals who would like to punish the british people]

Barnier "I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.

Also lastly, because of how much of our own resources we've spent for years helping the other EU nations, subsidising their infrastructure and people, standard of living etc etc...

The european nations have existed for hundreds of years before the eu came along, it's objectives should not trash and stamp over the possibility for good diplomacy and relations between the individual european nations, which is what is actually happening, because the majority of the uk dared to vote to leave their project.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Its in article 50

And?

so the uk just leaves? can you show me where in Article 50 is the part we cant ask for anything

You can read it all here, very clear.

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I never said you cannot ask for anything. Yet again trying to twist my words. Why am I not surprised?

I asked why should you have preferential status? All EU members have the same rights and duties, very clearly stated in the EU statutes and treaty.

Art 50 also lays out clearly that you can leave without any negotiations and trading would revert to WTO rules. So there is nothing holding you back.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Not sure, I think it was theresa may and remainers like philip hammond's fault, on paper they wanted to say 'we've left the EU' but in reality not to have done. I haven't read these statutes but if it clearly lays out a process, goodness knows why we just haven't done it and still sat here 3 years later with another deadline and endless hysteria from the liberal mass media.

To the 2nd bold part above, some relevant points come to mind: firstly the eu has a trade surplus with the uk, we send more money their way via trade than they do to us (good customers always get preferential treatment and terms); secondly, more importantly to me, for historical reasons.

For example, bailing out france and most of europe twice in the last century, with all that that entailed, to then treat the uk in the same way as paraguay or another unrelated, far flung country would be dishonourable behaviour in my eyes. [but I sense the kind of unelected bureaucrats we are dealing with are the dishonourable, ungrateful type... grubby, immoral individuals who would like to punish the british people]

Barnier "I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.

Also lastly, because of how much of our own resources we've spent for years helping the other EU nations, subsidising their infrastructure and people, standard of living etc etc...

The european nations have existed for hundreds of years before the eu came along, it's objectives should not trash and stamp over the possibility for good diplomacy and relations between the individual european nations, which is what is actually happening, because the majority of the uk dared to vote to leave their project.

AFAIK, you were the only country collecting a rebate on your EU contributions to the tune of some EUR5 billion or thereabouts per year. This was done more than a decade ago to give you preferential treatment. Overall, that saved you tens of billions.

So when is it enough? How much more in sweeteners do you want or expect?

And what has Paraguay to do with the EU?

Nobody is trying to trash anything, the EU has certainly done all they could to keep you in the EU, negotiated fairly when you said NO, and now insists on a solution to the Irish border. It's not that complicated. They even granted you extensions to the normal period of two years and your leaders are still not capable to get it done.

 

[mack341]

AFAIK, you were the only country collecting a rebate on your EU contributions to the tune of some EUR5 billion or thereabouts per year. This was done more than a decade ago to give you preferential treatment. Overall, that saved you tens of billions.

So when is it enough? How much more in sweeteners do you want or expect?

And what has Paraguay to do with the EU?

Nobody is trying to trash anything, the EU has certainly done all they could to keep you in the EU, negotiated fairly when you said NO, and now insists on a solution to the Irish border. It's not that complicated. They even granted you extensions to the normal period of two years and your leaders are still not capable to get it done.

I think we paid in 18 billion gross the last year before the referendum, then the rebate you mentioned and grants left us with around a net £10 billion cost of membership, so my point remains, over the years the uk has spent billions helping the other countries in the EU (on top of the trade deficit)

[I think you must have misread my post or misunderstood the points I was trying to make regarding the rest.]

I would quite happily leave with no deal if that is the only reasonable way out, I don't think the backstop is ever going to happen. The eu leaders are terrified of having egg on their face, they don't want to admit they've been wrong and negotiating in bad faith. But I think they made a mistake in being so inflexible about the backstop and not even accepting a time limit to it. [they may have been led down this path by the remainers in the uk govt, who saw and wanted the backstop as a way of circumventing the referendum result and keeping the uk tied to the eu indefinitely, and this time with no way out]

Merkel and macron (not sure about the eu leaders ) have now said to boris 'we'll listen to your viable solutions' re alternatives to the backstop, so we'll see what comes from that, that could enable the EU to save face by saying 'a workable alternative to the backstop has now been found'...

 

[thr0b]

But leaving without a deal is suicidal.

The fact that you’ve been brainwashed to think otherwise is not my problem. The fact that it’s likely to happen is my problem.

I continue not to respect the result of a referendum which had no legal force, which was subject to systemic fraud and interference and if it HAD legal force, would have been voided because of the above.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I think we paid in 18 billion gross the last year before the referendum, then the rebate you mentioned and grants left us with around a net £10 billion cost of membership, so my point remains, over the years the uk has spent billions helping the other countries in the EU (on top of the trade deficit)

[I think you must have misread my post or misunderstood the points I was trying to make regarding the rest.]

I would quite happily leave with no deal if that is the only reasonable way out, I don't think the backstop is ever going to happen. The eu leaders are terrified of having egg on their face, they don't want to admit they've been wrong and negotiating in bad faith. But I think they made a mistake in being so inflexible about the backstop and not even accepting a time limit to it. [they may have been led down this path by the remainers in the uk govt, who saw and wanted the backstop as a way of circumventing the referendum result and keeping the uk tied to the eu indefinitely, and this time with no way out]

Merkel and macron (not sure about the eu leaders ) have now said to boris 'we'll listen to your viable solutions' re alternatives to the backstop, so we'll see what comes from that, that could enable the EU to save face by saying 'a workable alternative to the backstop has now been found'...

I rest my case mack.....because you just seem to ride on what you spent. In no words do you ever mention what you got by being part of the EU. Free trade, free travel, free financial markets, etc......you think that is not more worth than the few billion you spent NET on the EU per year?

The EU does not need to save face! They always said anything better than the backstop will be discussed. They don't like the backstop either.

And why should the EU leaders be terrified or why did they negotiate in bad faith? Where do you get those fantasies from?

I remember your negotiating team arriving for the first sessions with basically no prepared material. It was like they would go for an afternoon tea and not for discussions about a highly complex exit from a treaty!

 

[bluebirdy]

You can read it all here, very clear.

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I never said you cannot ask for anything. Yet again trying to twist my words. Why am I not surprised?

I asked why should you have preferential status? All EU members have the same rights and duties, very clearly stated in the EU statutes and treaty.

Art 50 also lays out clearly that you can leave without any negotiations and trading would revert to WTO rules. So there is nothing holding you back.

I didn't twist your words i replied to the way you put it. so no need for your rolling eyes

I asked why should you have preferential status? All EU members have the same rights and duties, very clearly stated in the EU statutes and treaty.

When did the UK ask for preferential status?



Yes we can leave without negotiations. But how many of the whinging whining remainders on our side will allow it?.

UK is doing what art 50 says and trying negotiations. which is good for both sides.

 

[Kroffe]

Also, i feel i need to add a thing.
When i coined the word "Remoaner" back in 2004 it was used to describe a female or male sexual partner who kept coming back for more.
Im glad the word has spread, but you guys are using it wrong.

 

[mack341]

I rest my case mack.....because you just seem to ride on what you spend. In no words do you ever mention what you got by being part of the EU. Free trade, free travel, free financial markets, etc......you think that is not more worth than the few billion you spent NET on the EU per year?

The EU does not need to save face! They always said anything better than the backstop will be discussed. They don't like the backstop either.

And why should they be terrified or why did they negotiate in bad faith? Where do you get those fantasies from?

I remember your negotiating team arriving for the first sessions with basically no prepared material. It was like they would go for an afternoon tea.

I agree we haven't approached it professionally enough, but a part of that and negotiating properly, is the willingness to walk away.

Our remainer pm saint theresa was never prepared to do that, I think the eu did in the early days offer us a free trade canada type deal, but theresa may overrided her minister, steve baker, and prevented him from publicising it.

"While it is often said there is no alternative, it is not true. As a minister, I was prevented from including in my speeches the offer made by the EU in March, repeated recently, which you can find here:

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The offer included security co-operation, participation in various programmes and institutions, dealing with absurdities like any threat to flights, and a comprehensive advanced free trade agreement covering all sectors with no tariffs, no quantitative restrictions and including services. It is not yet clear why the Prime Minister – working against the collective decision of DExEU ministers to which I was a party – chose instead to seek a form of Brexit somewhat like the Customs Union plus somewhat like the EEA.

That would be a novel legal form, likely to collapse into the actual Customs Union plus a copy of the EEA in the course of negotiations. It would be untenable in the long term for an independent democracy to be so constrained as a rule-taker. Yet this appears to be the chosen destination."

There was no mention of backstops in the early days as far as I can tell, it suddenly just appeared about 18 months into negotiations

Yes I do think the EU have been negotiating in bad faith, I quoted barnier in my earlier post, does this sound to you like negotiating in good faith or with best endeavours to reach an agreement on future trade:

"I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.

Terrified of having to climb down, bullies always are, if you can't see the eu likes to lord over its member states than you must have a different understanding of the power relationship between the eu and the nations of europe, although I would have thought how they treated greece (and also hungary) was a clear enough example of their bullying manner.

 

[mack341]

But leaving without a deal is suicidal.

The fact that you’ve been brainwashed to think otherwise is not my problem. The fact that it’s likely to happen is my problem.

I continue not to respect the result of a referendum which had no legal force, which was subject to systemic fraud and interference and if it HAD legal force, would have been voided because of the above.

And I continue not to respect any replies to my posts which adopt a foul personal tone

 

[thr0b]

The backstop is required to protect the single market and to comply with the Good Friday agreement.

If the GFA is impacted, there will be no US trade deal.

Without the backstop, there is no EU deal.

The EU are willing to take realistic alternatives to the backstop. The UK has come up with none. Other than “alternative arrangements”, which do not yet exist and would take more than eight weeks to put into practice even if they did.

The EU is negotiating in the best faith possible.

The Tory government is not. Locking down parliament for weeks (this is not the same as a recess - work continues in a recess. When parliament is prorogued everything stops. Laws which have not been passed are dropped. Everything starts afresh.) is the act of an administration in desperation.

Conservative MPs have been told if they vote to delay Brexit, they will not be allowed to stand for the party at the next election, even if their local party wants them to.

Boris said he wouldn’t close parliament. Members of his cabinet all said it would be an abhorrent act. Not one of them has come out against this abhorrent act now they’re at the big table.

And you trust this government is negotiating in good faith, that it’ll keep to it’s promises on future funding for NHS, schools...anything?

I despair, I really do.

Brexit is about centralisation of power, about protecting the rich, about protecting the Tories. That’s all it’s ever been about on their side. That’s why the narrative continually changes. They told you at the time of the referendum the idea was to get a deal. That it would be wrong to leave without one. And over three years, they changed the narrative. Big Brother in action. Now apparently you all voted for No Deal, despite all the evidence saying it wasn’t an option.

Ever seen Idiocracy? We’re fucking living it.

 

[steveh35]

I have to laugh at this Sky News headline tweet Rain stops play...torrential rain in

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has drenched today’s “Defend Democracy” protestors.

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so much for defending democracy... not if it's raining we just stay at home and watch on tv.

 

[steveh35]

Sky reporting 500 people turned out in Birmingham. 500 in the country's 2nd largest city pmsl.

 

[sledge13]

Hahah about 100 in the square in York centre getting lots of stick by passers by, including me, complete idiots...

 

[dunover]

Hahah about 100 in the square in York centre getting lots of stick by passers by, including me, complete idiots...

Throw milkshakes at the tools.....

 

[dunover]

Ever seen Idiocracy? We’re fucking living it.

As opposed to the EU's Kleptocracy?

 

[steveh35]

I noticed on some forums and twitter the remainers are trying to spin it that it has been well attened across the country and the York orgainisers trying to proclaim they have had huge numbers.

 

[bluebirdy]

Throw milkshakes at the tools.....

dont let the remainers hear you say that you know how they like crying over spilt milk, plus the way they talk where going to need the milk.

 

[sledge13]

Haha should have Dunover, even the BBC have downplayed the crowds in London...Conservatives have gone up in the polls the last 2 weeks, you wouldn't know it from the biased media! most agree with Boris!

 

[goatwack]

#StopTheCoup! (lame)

 

[steveh35]

Look at this sad pair who can't count they seem to think there are three of them

Hey UK I am really cool in my cheap sunglasses and naff t-shirt

 

[goatwack]

She's really feeling it

 

[Kroffe]

Look at this sad pair who can't count they seem to think there are three of them

2 holding the banner thingy, 1 taking the picture.

 

[goatwack]

This 'solidarity' across the globe is truly heart-warming

 

[steveh35]

2 holding the banner thingy, 1 taking the picture.

View attachment 113597

How do you know there is someone holding the camera could be fixed

 

[thr0b]

How do you know there is someone holding the camera could be fixed

Like the referendum was.

 

[Kroffe]

How do you know there is someone holding the camera could be fixed

There could also be a very little person in the mans pocket, making it three once again.
But im gonna go with that theres someone holding the camera, and thats how they got 3. =)

 

[steveh35]

There could also be a very little person in the mans pocket, making it three once again.
But im gonna go with that theres someone holding the camera, and thats how they got 3. =)

I'm going with they are thick remainers who can't count to three and also can't spell DEMOCRACIA on their banner so have to go over a letter with a marker pen and make it look cheap and stupid.

 

[sledge13]

THICK REMAINERS - 1.01 IN THE BAG

 

[goatwack]

VIVA LA DEMOCRACIA!

 

[Kroffe]

I'm going with they are thick remainers who can't count to three and also can't spell DEMOCRACIA on their banner so have to go over a letter with a marker pen and make it look cheap and stupid.

Wouldnt it be "cant count to two"
Either way, i dont really care if they are 2 or 3.

 

[pinnit2014]

Wouldnt it be "cant count to two"
Either way, i dont really care if they are 2 or 3.

View attachment 113598

Possibly 96. Guess we'll never know.

 

[Kroffe]

Possibly 96. Guess we'll never know.

Sschh... Dunover might get ya!

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Brexit frustrated again- yawn.

 

[goatwack]

This would have never happened with Theresa May at the helm

 

[dunover]

Simples Boris - expose the lying, democracy-denying, self-serving and treacherous LD's and Liebore MP's for what they are.

How? Put forward a motion for a legally-binding referendum as follows:

"Having voted to leave the EU in 2016, shall we proceed on the basis of the deal negotiated, or exit without one?"

Of course, all those MP's opposing Brexit do so for altruistic reasons and would eagerly support and pass the bill giving a people's vote which they have been banging on about for 3 years - wouldn't they?

Nah, 'cos it would expose them for the referendum result deniers they really are and stop them playing the Commons for their own political party ambitions. It would then be apparent to all what most already know - it isn't a 'people's choice' they are interested in, rather a reversal of the first people's choice back in 2016.

He's already called Swindleson's and Corbum's bluff with the GE that it turns out they actually don't really want, knowing the voters will punish them for their treachery.

 

[steveh35]

I was wondering if this is possible:

1) Now Boris has 289 MP's and no majority could Corbyn go to the Queen and say he wants to form a government, if he did and she approved it could Johnson then hold an immediate no confidence motion in Corbyn and force an election that way?

2) Johnson allows the emergency Bill to go through parliament & Lords today and get royal assent then calls the election, wins a majority and removes the bill.

Apparently we can't have an election on October 14 as it is a jewish holiday and this would not go down well with the Jewish people so it now has to be October 15 which leaves only 2 days until EU summit on 17 October.

 

[Luckyscouser45]

Country is screwed

 

[steveh35]

There is another weird scenario we are now in which will need looking at in the future,we are now in a position where a government is in no.10 which cannot govern but cannot call an election so is stuck, and we have an opposition party which, as long as it's partners, SNP, Libs etc work with them can actually be running the country without actually being in power.

Due to the fixed term parliament act Jeremy Corbyn could in effect run the country for the next 3 years without being prime minister and no one can do a thing about it as long as he has enough support.

This is a completely idiotic situation which should not be allowed to happen again.

 

[KasinoKing]

There is another weird scenario we are now in which will need looking at in the future,we are now in a position where a government is in no.10 which cannot govern but cannot call an election so is stuck, and we have an opposition party which, as long as it's partners, SNP, Libs etc work with them can actually be running the country without actually being in power.

Due to the fixed term parliament act Jeremy Corbyn could in effect run the country for the next 3 years without being prime minister and no one can do a thing about it as long as he has enough support.

This is a completely idiotic situation which should not be allowed to happen again.

To be honest I haven't read this thread at all (better things to do with hours & hours of my time!) - but that one post and final sentence sums the whole thing up - it's just a farce!

KK

 

[Luckyscouser45]

At the end of the day I voted leave but I didn’t vote for this shambles and neither did the other 17 million leave voters