Brexit - whats the difference.....
- Thread starter cncas2123
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Thanks Harry, that's a very apt saying to describe the EU
And Bonanza
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France will do as they're told and vote for the extension unfortunately. Do you honestly think they won't?
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I wonder how the remainers in parliament will respond to this, I do hope hilary benn ends up with egg all over his face. A sinister and machiavellian man pretending to be a do-gooder.
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Yet his equally lefty father hated the EU and was an avid leaver in today's parlance.
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Only 90 seconds, well worth a watch.
'He's making the exact point No Dealers fail to grasp - No Deal is not an end point. Its just a delayed deal, coming from a weaker negotiating position with a lot of added chaos and financial harm.'
'He's making the exact point No Dealers fail to grasp - No Deal is not an end point. Its just a delayed deal, coming from a weaker negotiating position with a lot of added chaos and financial harm.'
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“Please give us a deal, even though we’ve reneged on our debts recently, we won’t this time, honest.”
UK.gov is basically going to be grovelling to the ashes of Wonga.com on our behalf.
UK.gov is basically going to be grovelling to the ashes of Wonga.com on our behalf.
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Chop you're back in the game
The thing is doing a deal takes time, but we have to pass the result of the referendum at some point otherwise we have the democratic standing of a banana republic.
Let's be honest, the EU doesn't want to do a fair deal now, they want to see if they can make our country suffer so that we beg to rejoin. The backstop was probably a kinder, legal way of not letting us escape their control, they say it would only come into effect in the event of not being able to reach a final deal, so what was the likelihood of that, very high I 'd say.
The EU is not a force for more democracy but less, that's why the business people and the blairs of this world love it, they get to dictate the new laws and regulations without the pesky voter getting in the way. It's the commission and president telling nation states 'you will accept this law or otherwise face the consequences...'
I think every other eu member state should now have to have a referendum, let's test how popular the EU really is with the public at large. If it's so good you'd expect to see around 70% of votes in favour, if it falls to around to 50/50 levels it must be viewed as a failure and in need of binning or major reform.
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vorcirion
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Chop you're back in the game
The thing is doing a deal takes time, but we have to pass the result of the referendum at some point otherwise we have the democratic standing of a banana republic.
Let's be honest, the EU doesn't want to do a fair deal now, they want to see if they can make our country suffer so that we beg to rejoin. The backstop was probably a kinder, legal way of not letting us escape their control, they say it would only come into effect in the event of not being able to reach a final deal, so what was the likelihood of that, very high I 'd say.
The EU is not a force for more democracy but less, that's why the business people and the blairs of this world love it, they get to dictate the new laws and regulations without the pesky voter getting in the way. It's the commission and president telling nation states 'you will accept this law or otherwise face the consequences...'
I think every other eu member state should now have to have a referendum, let's test how popular the EU really is with the public at large. If it's so good you'd expect to see around 70% of votes in favour, if it falls to around to 50/50 levels it must be viewed as a failure and in need of binning or major reform.
Yeah other states should follow your idiotic example
How about no thanks. We prefer to reform the EU the way it needs to be reformed (from the inside of the EU). EU is working pretty well already...so how about you keep the misery all for yourself and let the rest of us enjoy the benefits of the EU.
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Yeah other states should follow your idiotic example
Are you scared the results would be 50/50 across europe, rather than the 70/30 in favour your post implies?
I am interested to understand exactly what these benefits are, which could not be available other than through the auspices of the EU ?
Edit: I'm expecting a fairly long and hefty list that should come straight to mind considering the costs and surrender of sovereignty of each member.
And also the new benefits of membership on the horizon...it keeps passing new laws and regulations so new advantages/benefits have got to keep coming, right?
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vorcirion
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Freedom of movement comes to my mind first. And we can actually say FU to Trump if he tries to blackmail us somehow. It's good to be part of something great...something strong
We have much more influence like this.And we can help each other in the time of need. Like helping Greece for example.
Sure there may be nations (nationalists) who would vote to leave the EU. But I guess leaders are looking how things are going in the UK and saying...f**k that.
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Freedom of movement comes to my mind first. And we can actually say FU to Trump if he tries to blackmail us somehow. It's good to be part of something great...something strong
And we can help each other in the time of need. Like helping Greece for example.
Sure there may be nations (nationalists) who would vote to leave the EU. But I guess leaders are looking how things are going in the UK and saying...f**k that.
And that is exactly what the EUSSR wants - to make things as difficult as possible to put other countries in fear of leaving their cabal. Helping Greece? It was being in the EU and moreover an illogical membership of the Euro that was largely responsible for wrecking their economy. Greece had essentially no autonomous monetary policy flexibility and their debt was under reported too despite it being less in relation to GDP than say Belgium's or Italy's. Now it's tens of thousands per person.
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Geez Dazza, inform yourself first.
First, the Greek Drachma was worth very little, then the Greeks cheated on how much debt they have to be allowed to get the Euro (that's how much they wanted it). Greece has always had a debt problem, purely because people do not pay taxes from their salary but have to voluntary hand in their tax declaration every year. At some point, more than 50% didn't do it, draining the country even more than it already was.
And it was more in relation to their GDP than they actually reported, much more. That is what led to the crisis in the first place.
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Freedom of movement comes to my mind first. And we can actually say FU to Trump if he tries to blackmail us somehow. It's good to be part of something great...something strong
And we can help each other in the time of need. Like helping Greece for example.
Sure there may be nations (nationalists) who would vote to leave the EU. But I guess leaders are looking how things are going in the UK and saying...f**k that.
I would say the negative impacts from membership to the eu are probably felt less in finland than the uk. I think your country is slightly bigger than the uk but with less than 10% of the population, so you're much less crowded.
And Laura Huhtasaari seems quite a lovely lady, a decent finnish politician, she'd get my vote
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'I would say the negative impacts from membership to the eu are probably felt less in finland than the uk. I think your country is slightly bigger than the uk but with less than 10% of the population, so you're much less crowded.
And Laura Huhtasaari seems quite a lovely lady, a decent finnish politician, she'd get my vote
A complete nutcase creationist. One of the most despicable Finnish politicians and a fraudster.
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vorcirion
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I would say the negative impacts from membership to the eu are probably felt less in finland than the uk. I think your country is slightly bigger than the uk but with less than 10% of the population, so you're much less crowded.
And Laura Huhtasaari seems quite a lovely lady, a decent finnish politician, she'd get my vote
She can kiss my hairy ass!
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I would say the negative impacts from membership to the eu are probably felt less in finland than the uk. I think your country is slightly bigger than the uk but with less than 10% of the population, so you're much less crowded.
And Laura Huhtasaari seems quite a lovely lady, a decent finnish politician, she'd get my vote
She is an idiot who thinks evolution is an impossible theory among other things.
Edit: Tengil beat me to it.
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Geez Harry, I said it was under-reported!
But the Euro is a huge handicap on them recovering and ensures they are beholden to the EU financiers for far longer than is necessary as they cannot devalue their currency in order to establish their natural terms of trade in many important areas of commerce.
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from the spectator magazine:
"Analysts estimate that some €230 billion (80 per cent) of the €290 billion eight-year rescue package has gone straight to European banks, bypassing the stricken Greeks altogether. As Yanis Varoufakis, the rock-star former finance minister and the bane of Brussels, has said: ‘Greece didn’t get a bailout.’ The bailout went ‘primarily to French and German banks’.
Somewhere in all of this, a cardinal rule of international banking seems to have been forgotten. As a recent Bloomberg editorial recently put it: ‘Irresponsible borrowers can’t exist without irresponsible lenders. German banks were Greece’s enablers.’
Any and all funds raised through austerity cuts and privatisations in future have been pledged to repaying EU loans for the next 50 years. The Bank of Greece estimates that the Greek population has fallen by 3 per cent in the last eight years owing to a falling birth rate (a sure sign of a society’s diminishing confidence in its future) and to the decision of some 420,000 Greeks of working age to seek work overseas (mostly in Germany, the UK and the UAE). These are the talented and thrusting young professionals the economy needs to achieve a recovery. "
I wonder how much interest greece will have to pay over that 50 years
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And from the nation website:
How Goldman Sachs Profited From the Greek Debt Crisis
The investment bank made millions by helping to hide the true extent of the debt, and in the process almost doubled it.
The Greek debt crisis offers another illustration of Wall Street’s powers of persuasion and predation, although the Street is missing from most accounts.
The crisis was exacerbated years ago by a deal with Goldman Sachs, engineered by Goldman’s current CEO, Lloyd Blankfein. Blankfein and his Goldman team helped Greece hide the true extent of its debt, and in the process almost doubled it. And just as with the American subprime crisis, and the current plight of many American cities, Wall Street’s predatory lending played an important although little-recognized role.
In 2001, Greece was looking for ways to disguise its mounting financial troubles. The Maastricht Treaty required all eurozone member states to show improvement in their public finances, but Greece was heading in the wrong direction. Then Goldman Sachs came to the rescue, arranging a secret loan of 2.8 billion euros for Greece, disguised as an off-the-books “cross-currency swap”—a complicated transaction in which Greece’s foreign-currency debt was converted into a domestic-currency obligation using a fictitious market exchange rate.
As a result, about 2 percent of Greece’s debt magically disappeared from its national accounts. Christoforos Sardelis, then head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency, later described the deal to Bloomberg Business as “a very sexy story between two sinners.” For its services, Goldman received a whopping 600 million euros ($793 million), according to Spyros Papanicolaou, who took over from Sardelis in 2005. That came to about 12 percent of Goldman’s revenue from its giant trading and principal-investments unit in 2001—which posted record sales that year. The unit was run by Blankfein.
.....Greece wasn’t the only sinner. Until 2008, European Union accounting rules allowed member nations to manage their debt with so-called off-market rates in swaps, pushed by Goldman and other Wall Street banks. In the late 1990s, JPMorgan enabled Italy to hide its debt by swapping currency at a favorable exchange rate, thereby committing Italy to future payments that didn’t appear on its national accounts as future liabilities.
But Greece was in the worst shape, and Goldman was the biggest enabler. Undoubtedly, Greece suffers from years of corruption and tax avoidance by its wealthy. But Goldman wasn’t an innocent bystander: It padded its profits by leveraging Greece to the hilt—along with much of the rest of the global economy. Other Wall Street banks did the same. When the bubble burst, all that leveraging pulled the world economy to its knees.
Even with the global economy reeling from Wall Street’s excesses, Goldman offered Greece another gimmick. In early November 2009, three months before the country’s debt crisis became global news, a Goldman team proposed a financial instrument that would push the debt from Greece’s healthcare system far into the future. This time, though, Greece didn’t bite.
As we know, Wall Street got bailed out by American taxpayers. And in subsequent years, the banks became profitable again and repaid their bailout loans. Bank shares have gone through the roof. Goldman’s were trading at $53 a share in November 2008; they’re now worth over $200. Executives at Goldman and other Wall Street banks have enjoyed huge pay packages and promotions. Blankfein, now Goldman’s CEO, raked in $24 million last year alone.
Meanwhile, the people of Greece struggle to buy medicine and food.
There are analogies here in America, beginning with the predatory loans made by Goldman, other big banks, and the financial companies they were allied with in the years leading up to the bust. Today, even as the bankers vacation in the Hamptons, millions of Americans continue to struggle with the aftershock of the financial crisis in terms of lost jobs, savings, and homes.
and it goes on...a long article written by Robert B. Reich, a former secretary of labor, Chancellor’s Professor of Public Policy at the University of California, Berkeley and author of Beyond Outrage.
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Make of these extracts what you will, but I'm not sure the average greek person feels the EU has helped them much in their hour of need.
"Analysts estimate that some €230 billion (80 per cent) of the €290 billion eight-year rescue package has gone straight to European banks, bypassing the stricken Greeks altogether. As Yanis Varoufakis, the rock-star former finance minister and the bane of Brussels, has said: ‘Greece didn’t get a bailout.’ The bailout went ‘primarily to French and German banks’.
Somewhere in all of this, a cardinal rule of international banking seems to have been forgotten. As a recent Bloomberg editorial recently put it: ‘Irresponsible borrowers can’t exist without irresponsible lenders. German banks were Greece’s enablers.’
Any and all funds raised through austerity cuts and privatisations in future have been pledged to repaying EU loans for the next 50 years. The Bank of Greece estimates that the Greek population has fallen by 3 per cent in the last eight years owing to a falling birth rate (a sure sign of a society’s diminishing confidence in its future) and to the decision of some 420,000 Greeks of working age to seek work overseas (mostly in Germany, the UK and the UAE). These are the talented and thrusting young professionals the economy needs to achieve a recovery. "
I wonder how much interest greece will have to pay over that 50 years
---------------------
And from the nation website:
How Goldman Sachs Profited From the Greek Debt Crisis
The investment bank made millions by helping to hide the true extent of the debt, and in the process almost doubled it.
The Greek debt crisis offers another illustration of Wall Street’s powers of persuasion and predation, although the Street is missing from most accounts.
The crisis was exacerbated years ago by a deal with Goldman Sachs, engineered by Goldman’s current CEO, Lloyd Blankfein. Blankfein and his Goldman team helped Greece hide the true extent of its debt, and in the process almost doubled it. And just as with the American subprime crisis, and the current plight of many American cities, Wall Street’s predatory lending played an important although little-recognized role.
In 2001, Greece was looking for ways to disguise its mounting financial troubles. The Maastricht Treaty required all eurozone member states to show improvement in their public finances, but Greece was heading in the wrong direction. Then Goldman Sachs came to the rescue, arranging a secret loan of 2.8 billion euros for Greece, disguised as an off-the-books “cross-currency swap”—a complicated transaction in which Greece’s foreign-currency debt was converted into a domestic-currency obligation using a fictitious market exchange rate.
As a result, about 2 percent of Greece’s debt magically disappeared from its national accounts. Christoforos Sardelis, then head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency, later described the deal to Bloomberg Business as “a very sexy story between two sinners.” For its services, Goldman received a whopping 600 million euros ($793 million), according to Spyros Papanicolaou, who took over from Sardelis in 2005. That came to about 12 percent of Goldman’s revenue from its giant trading and principal-investments unit in 2001—which posted record sales that year. The unit was run by Blankfein.
.....Greece wasn’t the only sinner. Until 2008, European Union accounting rules allowed member nations to manage their debt with so-called off-market rates in swaps, pushed by Goldman and other Wall Street banks. In the late 1990s, JPMorgan enabled Italy to hide its debt by swapping currency at a favorable exchange rate, thereby committing Italy to future payments that didn’t appear on its national accounts as future liabilities.
But Greece was in the worst shape, and Goldman was the biggest enabler. Undoubtedly, Greece suffers from years of corruption and tax avoidance by its wealthy. But Goldman wasn’t an innocent bystander: It padded its profits by leveraging Greece to the hilt—along with much of the rest of the global economy. Other Wall Street banks did the same. When the bubble burst, all that leveraging pulled the world economy to its knees.
Even with the global economy reeling from Wall Street’s excesses, Goldman offered Greece another gimmick. In early November 2009, three months before the country’s debt crisis became global news, a Goldman team proposed a financial instrument that would push the debt from Greece’s healthcare system far into the future. This time, though, Greece didn’t bite.
As we know, Wall Street got bailed out by American taxpayers. And in subsequent years, the banks became profitable again and repaid their bailout loans. Bank shares have gone through the roof. Goldman’s were trading at $53 a share in November 2008; they’re now worth over $200. Executives at Goldman and other Wall Street banks have enjoyed huge pay packages and promotions. Blankfein, now Goldman’s CEO, raked in $24 million last year alone.
Meanwhile, the people of Greece struggle to buy medicine and food.
There are analogies here in America, beginning with the predatory loans made by Goldman, other big banks, and the financial companies they were allied with in the years leading up to the bust. Today, even as the bankers vacation in the Hamptons, millions of Americans continue to struggle with the aftershock of the financial crisis in terms of lost jobs, savings, and homes.
and it goes on...a long article written by Robert B. Reich, a former secretary of labor, Chancellor’s Professor of Public Policy at the University of California, Berkeley and author of Beyond Outrage.
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Make of these extracts what you will, but I'm not sure the average greek person feels the EU has helped them much in their hour of need.
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wow! I never thought mentioning this lady's name would get such a heated response
...most of the youtube videos featuring her are not in english so I don't know much about her viewpoints. A nice looking lady though, I think most could agree on that....
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That would be just another way to export unemployment. The ECB's main goal is to have a stable real economy, i.e. neutrality of money supply. Like Harry pointed out, much of the problems with Greek economy are related to fiscal policy rather than monetary policy.
I'd cast my vote in her ballot boxwow! I never thought mentioning this lady's name would get such a heated response
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I wonder if this guy knows his beans:
He doesn't seem to think, over the medium term, that no-deal will be detrimental to the uk, compared instead to a deal that constrains the uk.
Some good news for brexiteers, remainer speaker bercow is hanging up his robes at last
He doesn't seem to think, over the medium term, that no-deal will be detrimental to the uk, compared instead to a deal that constrains the uk.
Some good news for brexiteers, remainer speaker bercow is hanging up his robes at last
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So, on a day in which our Prime Minister has been found by the highest court in Scotland to have wilfully misled the Queen, the government has released a heavily summarised (and somewhat redacted) version of the Yellowhammer report.
In the government's own words, this is the reasonable worst case scenario. i.e. it's NOT the worst case scenario. It's more likely than that.
And in summary, this is what our government is CHOOSING to do to this country.
The whole document is a summary, and doesn't go into huge amounts of detail.
What is clear though is it dry, and it is realistic. And it reads like a country preparing for war, and all of the disruption associated with that.
And we don't have to do it.
There is no good reason to do it.
In the government's own words, this is the reasonable worst case scenario. i.e. it's NOT the worst case scenario. It's more likely than that.
And in summary, this is what our government is CHOOSING to do to this country.
- No bilateral deals have been concluded with individual member states with the exception of the reciprocal agreement on social security coordination with Ireland. EU Citizens living in the UK can retain broadly all rights and status that they were entitled to prior to exit from the EU, at the point of exit.
- Public and business readiness for a no-deal will remain at a low level, and will decrease to lower levels, because the absence of a clear decision on the form of EU Exit (customs union, no deal etc) does not provide a concrete situation for third parties to prepare for.
- HMG will act lawfully and in accordance with the rule of law, including by identifying the powers it is using to take specific actions.
- The lack of trader readiness combined with limited space in French ports to hold "unready" HGVs could reduce the flow rate to 40-60% of current levels within one day as unready HGVs will fill the ports and block flow. The worst disruption to the short Channel Straits might last for up to 3 months before it improves by a significant level to around 50-70% (due to more traders getting prepared), although there could continue to be some disruption for significantly longer
- In a reasonable worst case scenario, HGVs could face maximum delays of 1.5-2.5 days before being able to cross the border. HGVs that are caught up in congestion in the UK will be unable to return to the EU to collect another load and a proportion of logistics firms may decide to avoid the route should there be significant and prolonged disruption
- The BDG/DfT planning assumption on reduced flow rates describes a pre-mitigation reasonable worst case flow rate that could be as low as 40% D1ND via the short Channel Straits, with significant disruption lasting up to six months. Unmitigated, this will have an impact on the supply of medicines and medical supplies.
- The reliance of medicines and medical products' supply chains on the short straits crossing make them particularly vulnerable to severe extended delays; three-quarters of medicines come via the short straits.
- Demand for energy will be met and there will be no disruption to electricity or gas interconnectors. In NI there will be not be immediate disruption to electricity supply on Day 1. A rapid SEM split could occur months or years after EU Exit. In this event, there would not be security of supply issues. However, there will likely be significant electricity price increases for consumers (business and domestic), with associated wider economic and political impacts
- Any disruption to reduce, delay or stop supply of medicines for UK veterinary use would reduce our ability to prevent and control disease outbreaks, with potential detrimental impacts for animal health and welfare, the environment, and wider food safety/availability and zoonotic diseases which can directly impact human health. Industry stockpiling will not be able to match the 4-12 weeks' worth of stockpiling which took place in March 2019. Air freight capacity and the special import scheme is not a financially viable mitigation to fully close risks associated with all UK veterinary medicine availability issues due to border disruption.
- Certain types of fresh food supply will decrease.
- Government will not be able to fully anticipate all potential impacts to the agri-food supply chain. There is a risk that panic buying will cause or exacerbate food supply disruption
- Low income groups will be disproportionately affected by any price rises in food and fuel.
The whole document is a summary, and doesn't go into huge amounts of detail.
What is clear though is it dry, and it is realistic. And it reads like a country preparing for war, and all of the disruption associated with that.
And we don't have to do it.
There is no good reason to do it.
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Aside from your medicine issues are you really worried about running out of food for example, if it was going to get like Venezuela here then sure it would concern me, but some short term disruption is neither here nor there in the big scheme of things. There's too many bleedin hgvs on the roads as it is, we can use the channel tunnel and put on more goods trains.
Japan has twice the population of the uk and relies heavily on imports for all sorts of things, food and medicines etc...they seem to manage pretty well.
As I understand it, it is the EU that insist 5% VAT is levied on electricity and gas, once outside of the eu we can remove this charge.
Edit: I see a 3 month time frame has been given for the channel supply route delays/problems
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That was just my summary. The full document runs to five pages and goes into more detail -
And yes, I would be worried about running out of food. Because that's what the government is planning for.
It'll be supermarkets on Christmas eve, every day, for months.
And Japan has trade deals. If we leave the EU, we have none.
Basically, believe it or don't believe it; that's the government's own advice, and we are fucked.
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And yes, I would be worried about running out of food. Because that's what the government is planning for.
It'll be supermarkets on Christmas eve, every day, for months.
And Japan has trade deals. If we leave the EU, we have none.
Basically, believe it or don't believe it; that's the government's own advice, and we are fucked.
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Sounds great to me dan, and this is exactly what 17.2 million people voted for three years ago. This is literally the precise scenario that they all had in mind.
Obviously we can't run the 2016 referendum again because that would be 'anti-democratic', but Johnson is quite right to call for another general election (last held in 2017) and Corbyn is 'anti-democratic' for refusing to give Johnson what he wants, where Johnson tries to dig himself out of the world's biggest hole.
EDIT - Holy crap I just read mack's reply, whereby we literally have the phrase 'aside from your medicine issues'. You know there are many people in the UK who are now genuinely terrified of losing ready access to the medicines they need to stay alive?
And beyond that, we're now talking about 'not worrying about having enough food to eat' as if it's a positive?
Is there literally One. Single. Thing. that anyone from the Leave camp can still list as a positive in all of this?
Rules of the game:
1) Getting rid of foreigners doesn't count unless you're prepared to accept it was just racism all along.
2) We won't starve to death isn't a positive.
EDIT:
3) If it's THE EU TELLS US WHAT TO DO! Then list one thing the EU forced upon you prior to 2016 you hate so much that wasn't to do with immigration/foreigners.
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It's the terrifying, blinkered refusal to see facts as anything other than "Project Fear" that is, well, terrifying.
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Remember folks, this was supposed to be good for us.
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Oh, and the redacted paragraph is here:
Basically - petrol refineries will close in fairly short order, with around 2000 job losses.
Basically - petrol refineries will close in fairly short order, with around 2000 job losses.
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Well chop I have no idea the kind of medicine dan is on, I remember him mentioning it earlier in the thread, I don't know if it's life saving or there's no other medicine he can take that would be available and not subject to shortages. Obviously he is right to be concerned by that, but were that not to be an issue, is he worried in a broader sense, running out of food etc... that's what I meant, maybe I didn't word it in the right way and it sounded dismissive regarding his medicine but that wasn't my intention
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No offence about my medication taken.
But the problem is this - there's a whole list of medication that will be in short supply. Some people will be able to be swapped to other medication if they can be. But that will impact on the supplies of that medication.
Every link in a chain is essential. Take one out, and the cogs might move a little for a short time. But eventually, the chain is going to whip up and have your eye out.
But the problem is this - there's a whole list of medication that will be in short supply. Some people will be able to be swapped to other medication if they can be. But that will impact on the supplies of that medication.
Every link in a chain is essential. Take one out, and the cogs might move a little for a short time. But eventually, the chain is going to whip up and have your eye out.
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Yeah I know, even a dispassionate and objective assessment by the civil service and all associated essential services (sorry 'Remoaner Civil Servants who love Corbum', need to get the language right), is dismissed as Project Fear.
We're genuinely into the realms of flat-earthers here, it's faintly terrifying.
We now have people telling us that most medicines will probably be available and we'll still have enough food to eat (although not the food we necessarily want), and trying to palm it off as a good thing, because we break free of 'shackles' that can neither be explained or defined.
Oh well, at least there's alcohol to take the edge off.
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Where there's a will there's a way though, all these wars in the middle east we took part in the last two decades, required supply chains, it was done because the will to do it was there. I can't help it as a leave voter if our govt is useless and won't make the required preparations to secure adequate supplies of all required medicines ahead of the 31st oct.
Edit: this was a reply to dan's post at 1,333
Edit: this was a reply to dan's post at 1,333
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Instead of project fear, have the remoaners considered that there is actually really something to be frightened of? The reactions of millions of people denied democracy due to the self-serving interests of a cabal of elected representatives who cannot seem to get the message that the people chose to leave? Like riots, attacks on MP's, civil disobedience, withholding of taxes etc. if Article 50 is revoked or the people bullied into reversing their decision?
And don't the alleged threats to supply of certain goods expose a massive inherent weakness in our trade structure that is a result of 40 years of pandering to Eurocrats in the first place? Don't any of you see that this is in fact a very good reason why we did right in choosing to leave?
And don't the alleged threats to supply of certain goods expose a massive inherent weakness in our trade structure that is a result of 40 years of pandering to Eurocrats in the first place? Don't any of you see that this is in fact a very good reason why we did right in choosing to leave?
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- Jan 2, 2018
- Location
- UK
I've considered that. But law-breaking can be dealt with in fairly short order.
And there is no weakness in the trade structure. We chose to align with Europe because it is better to be part of the biggest trading block in the world than not.
Three years ago, we didn't have any trade negotiators because we didn't need them. We get great deals through Europe.
No deal means just that. We start with a baseline of zero, and with little trust, same as someone who refuses to pay his credit card off won't get a new card.
And there is no weakness in the trade structure. We chose to align with Europe because it is better to be part of the biggest trading block in the world than not.
Three years ago, we didn't have any trade negotiators because we didn't need them. We get great deals through Europe.
No deal means just that. We start with a baseline of zero, and with little trust, same as someone who refuses to pay his credit card off won't get a new card.
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Really? The Police couldn't even deal with a few hundred climate loonies illegally blocking streets in London. Mass disobedience would overwhelm the authorities and could only be dealt with by the assistance of the military. But as long as your tomatoes are 10p a kilo less from the EU I suppose that's OK.
Our farms could produce far more food than now if they hadn't been paid OUR money via the EU to set aside useful land to ensure we became more reliant on imports and therefore subsidizing less efficient French farmers for example. Don't mention the plunder of our territorial waters either.
You'll just have to eat more Swizzels and less Haribo.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2018
- Location
- UK
Jesus Christ.
Our farms can't produce more now. The document literally says that. It's the worst possible time to tear up trade agreements, due to it being winter.
Admit you've been sold a pup. Own it. Because I have no responsibility for the shit that is going to hit the fan in the name of everyone who ticked the Leave box.
Our farms can't produce more now. The document literally says that. It's the worst possible time to tear up trade agreements, due to it being winter.
Admit you've been sold a pup. Own it. Because I have no responsibility for the shit that is going to hit the fan in the name of everyone who ticked the Leave box.
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
I didn't say produce more right now! I am saying there is plenty of under-utilized farm land.
The EU works like a controlling husband psychologically bullying the wife. Gradually he control which friends she can or cannot see, makes her reliant on his supposed munificence whilst not letting her earn to her full potential, controls the household bank accounts, hands her a bit of money and instructs her how to spend it and ignores the fact he's only in the house because she paid for much of it but still tells her who to let into it.
When one day she sees the light and says she wants out, he says "Without me you are NOTHING and don't forget it!"
Pffftttt....
- Joined
- May 6, 2019
- Location
- North West
I've made this analogy before outside of this forum. Very apt.
V
vorcirion
Guest
Umm...what? That gotta be one of the most ridiculous analogies ever made. EU is just sitting and waiting for you to make your own decision. EU hasn't done anything...it's all you! You decided to leave and now you can't agree how to leave while the EU is just silent. It's not EU's fault if your leaders lie to your own citizens and what it means to have brexit. You have had 3 years to get ready for brexit. Where are your brexit leaders to help you through this period?
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Then you need to go back and check out comments by the French and Spanish regarding fishing rights, Gibraltar. Amongst others. Our 'Brexit Leaders' are simply hamstrung by a bunch of traitorous MP's who are using the process for their own ends, ignoring the referendum result. It's all a numbers game, and while Leave got the numbers in the referendum, sadly these few hundred creeps who are sabotaging and obstructing the process have decide their opinions are more important than 17.4 million votes.
Oh, and if you actually believe the words in your post, tell my why they haven't just got fed up, lost patience and MADE us leave? Maybe because they don't want the UK to go and thus shrink their sorry little corrupt power-grabbing club?
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2019
- Location
- sweden
Good thing Uk already has set up the massive supportgroups and help from friends and family that is needed when leaving an abusive spouse.
I feel like i used them right this time, did i use it right this time Harry?
I feel like i used them right this time, did i use it right this time Harry?
V
vorcirion
Guest
Of course the EU doesn't want you to go. It's not good for the EU and not good for you either obviously. But in the end it's your decision to make. Stop blaming the EU and start behaving like adults. All I hear is whining about E-USSR and corrupt leaders and whatever...get ready for the brexit instead! I'm sure your leaders become so pure and free of corruption right after the brexit is done. Then Dunover will finally be happy and not whine about anything.
- Joined
- May 8, 2018
- Location
- south east england
Yeah we made that decision back in 2016 but our wise leaders and those that run the country, the same people who decided to give us a referendum, had immediate second thoughts after the result was declared
And have been dragging their feet like screaming toddlers ever since, we've had three years to resolve the problems outlined in this yellowhammer report.
I can quite understand your opinion on us needing to start behaving like adults but our governing class can't accept the outcome of a democratic vote which they spent millions trying to influence to go the other way. [So we've had the circus come to town in the HOC, and the ridiculous shenanigans and sly maneuvering that's entailed, for 3 bleedin' years]
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- Joined
- Oct 20, 2010
- Location
- UK
Our 'leaders' are no longer in control, the ERG and Dominic Cummings are, and we must brexit soon not because of 'democracy' its because of all those pesky EU offshore tax haven laws kicking in by Jan 2020 and JRM, Arron Banks, Nigel Farage, various newspaper owners and other stupidly rich people will have to pay their fair share of tax on their vast offshore fortunes and be slightly less stupidly rich. The real reason behind brexit urgency.
And so many mugs have fallen for what is now basically a cult of 'You lost get over it' and all those promised benefits pre-ref are long since forgotten.
And so many mugs have fallen for what is now basically a cult of 'You lost get over it' and all those promised benefits pre-ref are long since forgotten.
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- Joined
- Jan 2, 2018
- Location
- UK
Not only forgotten. Apparently they never voted for those benefits. It’s astonishing Orwellian radicalisation.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2010
- Location
- UK
Good point., they called it project fear but it's apparently what they knew would happen and what they wanted all along.
