New Slot Announcement Bonanza by Big Time Gaming

[snorky510238]

Anything’s possible. I don’t believe for a split second Bonanza is running at anything above 90%. My rtp has gone from 98% to 90% at Videoslots in a year. That’s some mighty shit play……Can’t just be bad luck.

What people don’t seem to be able to comprehend, is that it would be so easy to run slots at a rtp that is less than advertised.

“Oh but they are regulated”. By who???? Obviously nobody that knows what they’re doing. We have already established the UKGC isn’t fit for purpose so what confidence can anyone have in everything being above board.

Just remember, the Sky version didn’t used to produce scatters in the 117. Why was that??? Obviously because it was a different version. No regulation picked up on that did they? No because they wouldn’t know what they were looking for in the first place.

It was only after it had been mentioned on here a few times that they suddenly started appearing. Now, I think they’ve got around that by simply removing the 117. Don’t play there often but don’t recall seeing it for a while.

If a game is taken down for maintenance, then they must be tweaking the outcomes. Let’s face it, the reels haven’t worn out or bearings need replacing and if nothing untoward is taking place then why not be transparent and player friendly? Tell us exactly why the game was taken down.

Not a prayer, way too many players out there, that are prepared to take it at face value, never question anything and believe all they are told.

Let me tell you one thing. As this industry and its providers get more and more desperate to stay afloat and maintain their share of the pie, the skullduggery and corner cutting is becoming more and more apparent and of course, the only person to suffer is the player.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Probably been running a batty version like hills. Neither need an excuse to run slots on dreadful RTP these days.

Looking forward to getting an email saying we are sorry you’ve been mugged off, here is all your losses back.

Then I can retire.

 

[irish-ranger]

Impossible to make it worse surely…..Then again.

My last week of playing this slot has been like nothing I have ever witnessed. I ended up depositing around £1,160 before I hit a bonus. It paid x200 and then hit another that paid x23. Over 500 spins later and I hit 2 more at, x58 and x8. Absolute shit show.

Honesty you'd had been safer spinning DOA on 90ps it surely couldn't have been any worse..

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Just had a quick look on sky. There are a load of games that have gone. Not just Bonanza.

 

[snorky510238]

Just had a quick look on sky. There are a load of games that have gone. Not just Bonanza.

Must be auditing time.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

It’s back. I’ll attack and see if any ram clear value is available!!!

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Paddy Power Today.

4.5 hours of fucking torture.

£250 gone on 40-60p

One straight in feature which was about 60x

And AGAIN a pathetic amount of cascade chances. 6 in total, of which (of course) none dropped.

What is it with giving you a chance of a feature every 45 mins ffs??? This isn’t just a one off it’s near enough every sodding time no matter where I deposit.

These scatterless reel sets follow me around every fucking casino.

 

[snorky510238]

The game has been set up in the dirtiest filthy way possible. It just shows they can get away with murder without being questioned.

I made a £100 deposit with £75 bonus last night. The lot gone without seeing GOLD and that was on top of another £300 where I saw 2 features, 1 of which was a 17 spin trigger that didn’t pay x100 and the other paid x38.

In the past hour another £200 gone without a decent win or seeing GOLD. Absolutely fucking disgraceful and for the record most deposits were £20 a time of which 11 didn’t last 5 minutes. Leo Vegas, deposits wiped out without a decent win every single time and Party Casino the worse of the worst. I can’t comment on Sky, as I have given up on that one and these won’t be far behind.

Supposedly, the more spins you play the closer you will get to achieving the said rtp. What an absolute load of bollox. My rtp has gone downhill faster than you would dream possible.

I have always stated games aren’t random and this shower of shit proves it beyond doubt. At least before, you had the odd session from hell but it was possible to get a good session and redeem some losses. This however, is just different level, like nothing I have ever witnessed. Session after session of nothing but feeling cheated.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

When the fun stops………

 

[paul7388]

When the fun stops………

Play Bonanza.

 

[snorky510238]

When the fun stops………

Yeah, it’s about time.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Play Bonanza.

Or build a giga jar on jammin jars 2.

Excellent value that game.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Wow I mean wow…

Carrying on from yesterdays 4 and a half hours for 1 feature we encounter todays session.

3 and a half hours for 1 feature.

What ever sick cunt at BTG decides that this is entertainment can kiss my ass.

8 hrs to see 2 features??

That would be tragic enough, but I’ve actually had WORSE just a week ago.

Luckily a 500x hit on a pragmatic eased the pain of todays loss somewhat but still an absolute shit show for the umpteenth time in the last month.

You hit a miracle win on a pragmatic and a couple of hours later thanks to Bonanza your fucking reloading again?? Give me a break.

In fact I’ll give myself one.

Deborah Meaden.

 

[snorky510238]

No way on earth is this the same game it was. It’s an absolute shit show and anybody that had played it long enough and hard enough cannot fail to notice.

Bonanza has always had dry spells, we know that but this is next level. I have thousands of bonuses (not sure I have all 4,000+ but I have most of them) recorded.

It’s going to take a long time but I am going to reconstruct the past 5 years and put all the stats together and then even the doubters won’t fail to see how BTG/ Evolution have swindled players out of millions of pounds.

Even if and it’s an IF, taller than Everest, the game is paying the correct rtp, the way it pays it, has been changed dramatically. That may not be against any rules but it’s underhanded skullduggery that’s akin to a dealer, getting someone addicted to a pure drug, then selling them a “cut” version at the same price. To be honest, it’s worse because there is no limit to what Bonanza can cost per day.

I have always had my suspicions that this kind of thing is common practice from most providers as slots age. Jungle Spirit, Gonzo’s Quest, Montezuma, to name but a few, that play nothing like they did at their peak. The difference being, I couldn’t say for certain because my sample size, was much lower than Bonanza.

 

[slot_zombie]

I completely agree that the game has changed substantially since release - no longer will it hold a balance while you cycle it round waiting for GOLD, in my experience.

It also doesn't seem that GOLD been made any more frequent, to compensate for the apparent drop in the base RTP.

But the actual paid out RTP at Videoslots (for example) is right "on the money" at 96%.

It seems hard to believe that the game is paying less than the stated RTP by design (and that VS, for example, are also fiddling the payout stats) - which leads to the same conclusion reached about Rhino, Montezuma etc. - that a small % of bonuses are paying bigger than before, but it's not something noticeable that can really be picked up on.

 

[snorky510238]

The problem with rtp is. that we ask a Casino what it is (some Casinos, you can find it) and we just accept what we are told. I am not saying we are being fed a load of bollox but it’s certainly something chewy, hard to swallow and difficult to digest.

Personally, I think rtp is a smokescreen and it’s the programming/maths, that is key. For example, you could have a slot that has a lower rtp, constantly outperforming a slot that has higher.

What I am saying is, if you strip it back to the bare bones, you can have a slot that has a 99% rtp but if it’s programmed to payout 99p, every single time you spin a pound then it fulfils it’s obligation but is no good to man nor beast.

As I said, IF it is paying the correct rtp then “the maths” has been engineered more towards the above example Imo.

 

[orion]

so, the question now seems to be: is it possible, to change the VARIANCE of a game, leaving its TRTP unchanged ?
from my personal experience, the answer is YES, but it would be appreciated if anybody more in the industry than me can shed some light on this.
@trancemonkey

 

[Speedy38]

The only way to get BTG for this kind of BS is stop playing BTG slots! There are lots of beter slots to play on..

 

[snorky510238]

Well, at the site I deem to be amongst the worst, if not the the worst, I decided to ask for my rtp on Bonanza. I am talking about SKY, of course.

I am very disciplined when it comes to withdrawals and I rarely play back more than £30 max so I haven’t won and then given it back. My overall deposits were around £10,300 and my withdrawals around 8,600. I was going to copy the chat but the agent terminated it immediately. From the stakes and withdrawals below, you will see that I virtually withdrew everything available.

My rtp (allegedly. find it impossible to believe was bang on) but when you consider that in all that time I have only had 1 decent withdrawal and 4 okayish ones, it does beg the question.

Remember, these withdrawals would not always be the result of one big win. Some of them were definitely from say, 4 hits of £80 for example.

So the next question is, if you sat down (live Casino) and played a game that paid 96% and put £10,000 through the game would you feel the game was fair, if those were the 5 best wins you had. Don’t forget I have played £47,000 through the game in reality.

So you play £47,000 through a game that pays 96% and these are your top 5 cash outs and all is deemed fair.

Sent from Sky

For Bonzana -
Stake: 47,707.80
Return: 46,153.60
RTP: 96.74

Your 5 largest withdrawals are:
£860 on 7/8/21
£372 on 19/1/22
£360 on 3/9/21
£350 on 17/11/21
£300 on 19/8/21

N.B. Only 2 decent withdrawals in the last 7 months. BENT Victor stats to follow later.

 

[CongoGB]

I have to ask the question - with the constant moaning about Bonanza, why the hell are you still playing it? You're clearly spending way too much time thinking about this damn game.

Maybe I'm crazy, but when something winds me up this much, I stop doing it.

Surely there are more enjoyable games out there?

 

[Muppet]

I suppose my one month run has ended with the new update that dropped a few days back (version 2022-4-12). Wish the run could have lasted a year with multiple 1k x's like some people get here since I haven't experience any of these in 5-6 years of playing. Instead not a single 1k x win at all but at least it ran good. With experience you could instantly tell that the game is in take mode with this new version. Played for two days and was proven right. When Bonanza is in this mode it is not enjoyable and also tilt inducing so decided not to touch it since. You also get sick of it very quickly.

So its baffling to see someone constantly throw money at it when they are convinced that the game is changed/gimped or even 'trolling' you. This must be how a Johnny Depp and Amber Heard relationship feels like.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

You can’t compare game RTP to money in/out withdrawal wise tbf.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

I suppose my one month run has ended with the new update that dropped a few days back (version 2022-4-12). Wish the run could have lasted a year with multiple 1k x's like some people get here since I haven't experience any of these in 5-6 years of playing. Instead not a single 1k x win at all but at least it ran good. With experience you could instantly tell that the game is in take mode with this new version. Played for two days and was proven right. When Bonanza is in this mode it is not enjoyable and also tilt inducing so decided not to touch it since. You also get sick of it very quickly.

So its baffling to see someone constantly throw money at it when they are convinced that the game is changed/gimped or even 'trolling' you. This must be how a Johnny Depp and Amber Heard relationship feels like.

Isn’t it 12th April 2021?????

 

[snorky510238]

@PMKFRUITPRO, it would be interesting to see a break down of your stats at SKY.

 

[Muppet]

Isn’t it 12th April 2021?????

Yes, but it's written that way, guess it's an American thing? I always get confused myself.
Edit: misread your post. Latest version dropped in this region is 12th April 2022 instead of 12th April 2021 as you mentioned.

 

[snorky510238]

This game is just shocking right now. I have never seen so many dead spins, it’s an absolute disgrace. BTG/Evolution, you’re simply taking the piss now. I have made another £400 in deposits without a bonus. Not 1 decent win and the vast majority of deposits ripped to shreds in less than 3 minutes. Screenshots taken if anyone is doubting it.

Party Casino is definitely running a rogue version, as are Bet Victor and Sky. My gameplay at those sites just defies the law of averages. Not once or twice but time, after time, after time.

 

[pinnit2014]

First decent win in a bit - better that it came from 30 FS in the Mr Vegas Freerolls, which gave 20 quid and just kept playing

Rare non crap 17, but with a big multi - all fluff

 

[Speedy38]

Tried Bonanza myself a bit a couple of golds first payed 250 x on 0.20 second payed 35x on 0.40 third payed over 300x on 0.60 bet. Base game is ok also balance never dropped more then 40 times bet before gold landed.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

This game is just shocking right now. I have never seen so many dead spins, it’s an absolute disgrace. BTG/Evolution, you’re simply taking the piss now. I have made another £400 in deposits without a bonus. Not 1 decent win and the vast majority of deposits ripped to shreds in less than 3 minutes. Screenshots taken if anyone is doubting it.

Party Casino is definitely running a rogue version, as are Bet Victor and Sky. My gameplay at those sites just defies the law of averages. Not once or twice but time, after time, after time.

Haven’t you just posted ur sky stats and ur running over RTP??? So how is that Rogue!!??

This was from Sept 2021 - The last time I asked for them. I keep meaning to get latest ones. Which I will post here. Be interesting to calculate from then on till now to see if any obvious decline in game play has taken place. As you can see it was pretty much at the 750,000 spin mark. So a large enough pool.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Mind you sky switched from the non scatter to the scatter available in the max gimped ways several months back so maybe the stats will have been reset also. I’ll get onto chat now and request a new RTP spreadsheet. Always interesting to check in on other games also.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Not open till 7am!!!

Sake.

 

[snorky510238]

Haven’t you just posted ur sky stats and ur running over RTP??? So how is that Rogue!!??

This was from Sept 2021 - The last time I asked for them. I keep meaning to get latest ones. Which I will post here. Be interesting to calculate from then on till now to see if any obvious decline in game play has taken place. As you can see it was pretty much at the 750,000 spin mark. So a large enough pool.

View attachment 167108

The reason I say rogue, is because certain outcomes that are (more like were) available at other sites/versions are not available at SKY. In £47,000 of stakes my best bonus was around x300. Does that sound normal and fair?

At other sites, I have had multiple bonuses between x300 and x1,000 so to never have hit 1 there is against the law of averages/maths and tells you the version is programmed differently. We know this is true because of the missing scatters.

They only patched that because it kept getting highlighted on the thread. They won’t have patched all the other underhanded shit that’s programmed into the software.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

They moved from openbet to Next Gen.

U are running over %age there so you can’t really complain.

Don’t think it was patched. Basically now running the same as most Uk sites.

£120 on 40p today for 1 shit 30x feature and a huge 5 cascade chances. What’s the fucking point.

 

[Jono777]

They moved from openbet to Next Gen.

U are running over %age there so you can’t really complain.

Don’t think it was patched. Basically now running the same as most Uk sites.

£120 on 40p today for 1 shit 30x feature and a huge 5 cascade chances. What’s the fucking point.

I say that about pretty much everything nowadays!

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Spurs had better fucking win to recover some of my losses.

Not the most reliable team are they??

Will give me one final bullet to fire at it. If I don’t get anything from that I am officially done with all online slotting. Simply cannot afford 4 figure losses every month when playing on such tiny stakes. It’s getting stupid now.

Hopefully spurs will lose and it will save me all the nonsense.

 

[aceking123]

This is the main problem I cannot see how you can afford to keep pumping funds into something that has such a poor top end of wins, online seems to have yet another massive shift for uk players, although I'm not playing any longer I can still see a current shift.

I shan't return I doubt, August this year is when I can I'm thinking with so much stuff that could happen it's time to call in quits & go back playing bricks & mortar.

More social & no worries cashing out.

 

[snorky510238]

E

They moved from openbet to Next Gen.

U are running over %age there so you can’t really complain.

Don’t think it was patched. Basically now running the same as most Uk sites.

£120 on 40p today for 1 shit 30x feature and a huge 5 cascade chances. What’s the fucking point.

It’s more than possible to not have to take a game down to patch it. As for the rtp, like I say you could be running at 99% if the game pays back 99p every time you spin £1 but you wouldn’t be too happy would you?

Totally agree, it’s getting stupid. It’s even gone past being a piss take. I am with you, there’s no point in playing any longer. What the hell the thinking is behind what they have done, who knows? Make hay, must be their motto.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

This is the main problem I cannot see how you can afford to keep pumping funds into something that has such a poor top end of wins, online seems to have yet another massive shift for uk players, although I'm not playing any longer I can still see a current shift.

I shan't return I doubt, August this year is when I can I'm thinking with so much stuff that could happen it's time to call in quits & go back playing bricks & mortar.

More social & no worries cashing out.

The truth is I simply can’t afford it anymore.

Im barely getting features let alone withdrawals.

100’s of deposits over the last few months for just a handful of withdrawals. If somebody else showed me their bank statements and it looked like mine I’d think they were mental and had a serious problem.

So that is officially me out now. The only time I will ever spin online again will be off the free promotional shit you get.

I will get in contact with sky and get my final figures and post at some point.

I’ve had enough. It will only get worse with further reduced RTP and stupid shit from the UKGC.

My football accas and the odd horse race will be my fun from now on.

The fun has stopped. It’s official.

Good luck all and take care.

I will of course keep tabs on the forum.

For those still involved I hope you smash em!!!!

 

[gonzo fonso]

E

It’s more than possible to not have to take a game down to patch it. As for the rtp, like I say you could be running at 99% if the game pays back 99p every time you spin £1 but you wouldn’t be too happy would you?

Totally agree, it’s getting stupid. It’s even gone past being a piss take. I am with you, there’s no point in playing any longer. What the hell the thinking is behind what they have done, who knows? Make hay, must be their motto.

i remember reading one of your posts a while back,im sure it said you had won over £10k on bonanza over a period of time,i hope you havent put this money back on this awful playing slot

 

[gonzo fonso]

yesterday £100 at videoslots and £100 at mr vegas,stakes 0.40 0.60 not 1 bonus absolute disgrace,and thats even with bonanza in the game payouts percentage being high atm,obviously thats aload of rubbish also

 

[snorky510238]

What they have done, is move the goalposts, changed the parameters if you like. If this game is paying the rtp it states then it must have been paying about 120% before because it is unrecognisable from how it used to play.

I also don’t believe the personal rtp that is attached your gameplay. If a Casino has software that is capable of calculating each individual’s rtp, then why not make it accessible to us?

I think they just look at stakes wagered, find 96% of it and tell you that’s your rtp. We couldn’t prove any different, we rely on them telling us and they rely on providers software to tell them and we all know providers such as BTG and EVILPOLUTION are underhanded scamming cheats.

By the way @BTG Rep, can you please clarify who is responsible for this skulduggery and underhandedness? Because, I may be giving you more credit than you deserve and should be aiming it more towards EVIL, now they’re in the box seat.

 

[snorky510238]

i remember reading one of your posts a while back,im sure it said you had won over £10k on bonanza over a period of time,i hope you havent put this money back on this awful playing slot

The money I withdraw is pretty much all moved to a different account as a form of saving but if you factor in that I have added less than my base spare wages for 6 months, in effect, they have had 4K back so to speak.

I am having on final hurrah today and if that goes south, I am out.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Honestly snorky I think the best thing you could do is stop playing Bonanza, in a weird sort of way I actually hope you have a terrible session today if it'll mean you finally walk away from it.

Asking for your stats from a casino and then effectively saying 'Well they could give me any old numbers' when they prove you're basically at expected RTP is a level of denial of reality that isn't healthy.

The more spins you do the more you're going to lose, that's just maths, I've been playing at 3Dice for ten years now and in that time I've done well over one million real money game rounds (probably about 1.1 or 1.2 million now I'd suspect, as I hit the million mark a while ago), and if you aggregate my RTPs across all the games my sitewide RTP is pretty much exactly bang on target. Even on my mostly minimum bets of 20p-50p per game round, add that up across over one million game rounds and deduct the casino's house edge from it, and you can quickly work out how much I've lost. (Yes there are lots of bonuses in there and some site comps, occasional freebies and suchlike, but still, it's a chunk of change - and I'm fine with that, because that's what playing random games with a house edge over the long term will do.)

Everyone knows Bonanza is (1) A very difficult game to bonus and (2) A very difficult game to hit a big win on, has it been changed? I don't know, you seem convinced it has and maybe you're right, but ultimately, if the RTP is still 96% (and it's certified at that so I'd say it is) then over enough game rounds you're still going to end up losing the same amount anyway.

Once you get to a big enough sample size the imaginary 99% slot you cite above that returns exactly 99p for every £1 spin will work out exactly the same as a highly volatile 99% slot.

Walk away man, you are the literal definition of throwing good money after bad.

 

[greylady]

Bonanza just recycles small wins to hit it's RTP, without having to get a win that is substantial!

 

[goatwack]

Yes, it's fairly apparent how Bonanza operates, whereby it gives the player the solid base game of consistent micro-wins, lulling them into thinking "Blimey, this 'ere Bonanza ain't too bad guv'nor", eking out the mediocre bonuses, for when they eventually show up.

You're actually more likely to get something decent from the base game over the bonus I feel, though should that relatively 'big win' occur, the game doesn't pretend to do anything other than painfully & methodically extract it all back. Only it does it in such a way so that the player actually believes that this is the start of something good, we've turned a corner, good times are a-comin'.

Except they're not, it'll literally steal your money, steal your partner, knock you out and piss on you for good measure, as all good compensated games do. You'd have to be Stevie Wonder not to see that

 

[paul7388]

You'd have to be Stevie Wonder not to see that

I would hazard a guess even he does not play the crap game.

 

[CongoGB]

Honestly snorky I think the best thing you could do is stop playing Bonanza, in a weird sort of way I actually hope you have a terrible session today if it'll mean you finally walk away from it.

Asking for your stats from a casino and then effectively saying 'Well they could give me any old numbers' when they prove you're basically at expected RTP is a level of denial of reality that isn't healthy.

The more spins you do the more you're going to lose, that's just maths, I've been playing at 3Dice for ten years now and in that time I've done well over one million real money game rounds (probably about 1.1 or 1.2 million now I'd suspect, as I hit the million mark a while ago), and if you aggregate my RTPs across all the games my sitewide RTP is pretty much exactly bang on target. Even on my mostly minimum bets of 20p-50p per game round, add that up across over one million game rounds and deduct the casino's house edge from it, and you can quickly work out how much I've lost. (Yes there are lots of bonuses in there and some site comps, occasional freebies and suchlike, but still, it's a chunk of change - and I'm fine with that, because that's what playing random games with a house edge over the long term will do.)

Everyone knows Bonanza is (1) A very difficult game to bonus and (2) A very difficult game to hit a big win on, has it been changed? I don't know, you seem convinced it has and maybe you're right, but ultimately, if the RTP is still 96% (and it's certified at that so I'd say it is) then over enough game rounds you're still going to end up losing the same amount anyway.

Once you get to a big enough sample size the imaginary 99% slot you cite above that returns exactly 99p for every £1 spin will work out exactly the same as a highly volatile 99% slot.

Walk away man, you are the literal definition of throwing good money after bad.

That is the most sensible post on this thread!

 

[snorky510238]

Unless you have played the game regularly, you will have no understanding of what I am saying really.

After 5 years of playing (virtually every day for at least 2 hours), you get to know how a slot behaves. You pretty much know it’s extreme parameters both top end and bottom end.

You also know the extreme “top end” doesn’t occur too often and likewise, the “bottom end” so to suddenly encounter play that you have never seen the likes of, incomparable to what has been witnessed previously, 9 times out of every 10 sessions, it’s only natural to think you’re getting stuffed.

It’s not just me who has witnessed it, there are several others such as, @Jackstar, @Jono777, @kennygamerboy and @PMKFRUITPRO who have all stated that it’s been changed or it’s bent. It’s a strange coincidence that we all pretty much noticed this at the same time, if there is actually nothing in it.

 

[Jono777]

More so reading and trusting your regular posts and reliable information on the matter than personal play for me mate.

However you raise a solid and believable argument each time, none of your posts come across as ranting (apart from the ranting part of these posts ) but what I mean is they are based on witnessed events rather than some who come on just to moan (erm that will be you then Jon)

It is OBVIOUS it has been doctored, only reason GREED - Where have all the videos screenshots and positive talk gone, the forum was abundant with this sort of thing within the first 6 or so month's of the games launch. Now all we see is either nothing (cos there is nothing worth sharing) or rage based posts, common sense tells us we cannot ALL be wrong. Few month's back rep said no changes had been made, yeah right mate, see you in the unicorn arms later for a pint of fairy dust.

Bonanza aside, although I do not get to play anywhere near as often as years gone by, I can still confidently say that this drop in standards and fairness can be said about a LOT of games, again one word, GREED! - I read and remember a lot of what gets said on here and none of it in past 12-24 month's has been positive.

If a business in general is up against competition or new enforcements then it has to adjust to stay afloat, same with I-Gaming, fighting against UKGC, less players, more casinos, un-licenced competitors etc, then they fight by lowering RTP, adding new codes which favour no one but themselves and basically fucking over the player, as if we aren't up against it already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pinnit2014]

Better off playing Beefy: unfortunately went dead after the Ace's win and ended up 899x at the finish line.

839x more than the usual Bonanza offering. Though does like the 40-50x wins itself