Betsson seized my deposit (1100 euro)

Mr_Zoidberg

Dormant account
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I always thought that Betsson was one of the most reputable casino group. I’ve created my account in november 2007 and I never had any bad experiences with Betsson. I've always trusted them, until now...

It is a very long and complicated story. I'll just give you the bottemline (I have a 7 pages Word document with the full story).

In december 2010 I had some cash that I needed to get in mij Neteller wallet. The easiest way was to buy some Paysafe vouchers, deposit it to a casino and withdraw it to Neteller. I choose to deposit the 1k in Paysafe vouchers and 100e by Neteller at Betsson. I thought it would be fair to generate some action at the casino. To speed things up I used a blackjack bot (I know this is questionable). In the end I've wagered around 2-3k on blackjack and 100 on slots. I had lost 50 euros and cashed out 1.050 euro to Neteller.

Then the problems started. My account was locked and reopened over and over again (phone verification, docs needed they already had, different cash out method). After a month Betsson support called me to tell me that my account was locked again and that I did not get my money because of "fraudulent play", "No discussion", "Decision is final". I could not believe it and I've mailed and called them several times, but with no results.

Back in January I was going to put the whole story including chat transcripts on Casinomeister. But before submitting it, I decided to mail the whole post to Betsson to give them a last chance to solve everything. Finaly they gave me an concrete, although unsatisfying, reply: you have used a bot = fraudulent play -> we keep al your deposited money (1.100e).

I agree that bots can be questionable, especially when there are bonuses involved. However, in my opinion, bots have nothing in common with fraud, nor is it a good reason to seize my deposits.

What do you guys think? Any chance that I will get my money back?
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
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Hello,

As stated in their T&C

3.1.9.
You shall not be involved in any fraudulent, collusive, fixing or other unlawful activity in relation to Your or third parties’ participation in any of the Games and shall not use any software-assisted methods or techniques or hardware devices for Your participation in any of the Games. BETSSON hereby reserves the right to invalidate or close Your Member Account or invalidate Your participation in a Game in the event of such behaviour;


It is quite clear that they prohibits the use of a boot. They confiscation looks valid.

My personal opinion is that a boot only will help you to lose faster (statistically speaking). But anyway, they don`t want players to use it and that is very understandable.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
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Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
LOL, you broke T&C and still in hope to get your money back! :eek2:

Forget about it! It's your fault that you didn't read their T&C!
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I always thought that Betsson was one of the most reputable casino group. I’ve created my account in november 2007 and I never had any bad experiences with Betsson. I've always trusted them, until now...

It is a very long and complicated story. I'll just give you the bottemline (I have a 7 pages Word document with the full story).

In december 2010 I had some cash that I needed to get in mij Neteller wallet. The easiest way was to buy some Paysafe vouchers, deposit it to a casino and withdraw it to Neteller. I choose to deposit the 1k in Paysafe vouchers and 100e by Neteller at Betsson. I thought it would be fair to generate some action at the casino. To speed things up I used a blackjack bot (I know this is questionable). In the end I've wagered around 2-3k on blackjack and 100 on slots. I had lost 50 euros and cashed out 1.050 euro to Neteller.

Then the problems started. My account was locked and reopened over and over again (phone verification, docs needed they already had, different cash out method). After a month Betsson support called me to tell me that my account was locked again and that I did not get my money because of "fraudulent play", "No discussion", "Decision is final". I could not believe it and I've mailed and called them several times, but with no results.

Back in January I was going to put the whole story including chat transcripts on Casinomeister. But before submitting it, I decided to mail the whole post to Betsson to give them a last chance to solve everything. Finaly they gave me an concrete, although unsatisfying, reply: you have used a bot = fraudulent play -> we keep al your deposited money (1.100e).

I agree that bots can be questionable, especially when there are bonuses involved. However, in my opinion, bots have nothing in common with fraud, nor is it a good reason to seize my deposits.

What do you guys think? Any chance that I will get my money back?

Using bots is against the rules at every casino I know of.

You KNEW it too - but you 'rolled the dice' anyway and got caught.

If you were only going to wager your deposit a few times, what on earth possessed you to use a BOT? Laziness? Lapse of judgement?

Either way your chances of getting your money back is ZERO (if the terms provide for that).

Personally I'm not comfortable with confiscation of deposits in these cases, only winnings, however you agreed to the terms when you signed up so you can't now decide that you don't.

I think the whole transfer to neteller via casino accounts and vouchers is odd too. Neteller has lots of funding methods so can't see why its necessary.

You could try contacting the rep or using the PAB service.
 

Mr_Zoidberg

Dormant account
PABrogue
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Thanks for your responses. It seems that I'm in deeper shit than I thought.

I never knew that a casino would confiscate deposits if you break their T&C. That seems very odd to me :what:
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
webmeister
CAG
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Location
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Of course they will confiscate your deposit. Thats not odd at all.

You can not break a T&C without any consequences. That would be pretty pointless. I am sure you are able to imagine why :)
 

BingoT

Nurses love to give shots
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Location
Hartford,Ct
It's just to bad you never looked at them T&C's
It's a lesson learned for ya sorry to say.
Nothing odd about it at all because if you buy a piece real estate & you break the lenders terms what does that lender do.......Take Your Property because you broke the contract agreement.

Everyone should take 10 minutes of their lives and read this stuff before you start.It's sucks but this is life.
Maybe the casino Rep will help you more for you.
Good Luck with this.
~T~
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
Hello,

As stated in their T&C

3.1.9.
You shall not be involved in any fraudulent, collusive, fixing or other unlawful activity in relation to Your or third parties’ participation in any of the Games and shall not use any software-assisted methods or techniques or hardware devices for Your participation in any of the Games. BETSSON hereby reserves the right to invalidate or close Your Member Account or invalidate Your participation in a Game in the event of such behaviour;


It is quite clear that they prohibits the use of a boot. They confiscation looks valid.

...

Not that I agree with money laundering or breaking T&C or the OP's poor judgement, BUT.... where does it say DEPOSITS will be confiscated? Elsewhere in the terms perhaps? Unless he's commited fraud, and things are not on the up and up, then they have that right. But, IMHO, playing with a bot is not fraud.


Just my 2 cents.
 

petro

Dormant account, per user request
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Could have already been pointed out but this is from Betsson's general T&C;

Only humans are permitted to play on our site. Artificially-intelligent programs, processes, applications and all other forms of software and hardware - including "Poker Bots" or "Auto Folders" - are prohibited from making game decisions or taking game action on our site, either under their own auspices or under the supervision of a human.

In short they don't allow bots. Seems your out of luck Mr. Zoidberg. Unless this is a new T&C that they are trying to apply retro-activly which I do not believe is the case.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Despite the "no bots" term, this is merely a breach of terms of business, and is in no way FRAUD. There is ONLY a right to void bets and confiscate winnings, NOTHING in the terms gives them any power to confiscate the players' own deposit money.

This is a case of refusal to do business after a breach of terms, in law the monies paid for the service do NOT belong to the provider, since the law ONLY allows the recovery of "reasonable costs in remedying the breach". This would probably only allow them to keep the banking fees they had to pay on receiving the deposit, and processing the refund of the balance.

The player is therefore due back the €1100, less the costs in remedying the breach of the terms of business, which will have to be justified.
This the most likely decision that a court would make.

Of course, all this could have been avoided by not being so damn lazy in the first place, and giving them some proper MANUAL action.

Betsson have also made themselves look bad by all the BULLSHIT they trotted out BEFORE they came up with the bot accusation, which in this case was correct. It makes it look as though they spent all this time stalling with BS excuses whilst they LOOKED for a reason not to pay out, which might have been triggered by their suspicions that this was a scheme to fund Neteller with these gift vouchers, rather than a desire to play with €1,100 in the casino.

They should have used THIS to take action, and paid the €1050 after deduction of charges, closed the account, told the player they are not a BANK, and don't expect to be used in this way.

The OP should try to take this to court, telling Betsson that they have sought legal advice to recover their deposit, and that this advice has been to consider making a claim for recovery through the courts. Betsson have a very WEAK case for arbitrarily taking the lot, and they KNOW it. They will have to JUSTIFY that €1100 is a fair sum to take account of the costs to them of remedying this breach. Hopefully, Betsson will NOT let it get to court, but will try to negotiate a settlement that they believe is fair, and as good as any that a court would award.
 

cerdikola

Low Roller
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Location
Spain
Probably if you try to take legal actions to recover your deposits, they will take legal actions against you for cheating. I think you have no chance to get your money back..

This is Vegas! :cool:
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
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Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
What is illegal ( in the personal opinion/s of other members) is irrelevant.

If you play online with bots at any online casino you are going to have big problems, and anyone who knows about and uses bots KNOWS this fact. The only variations are the different coonsequences in each casinos terms and conditions which must be accepted before an account can be created.

As I said I dont like deposits being confiscated, but if this is in the terms then IMO the casino has the right to do it. You can't pick and choose the ones you like, just as in law. What might be illegal in one country might be quite ok in another and nobody should be relying on legal advice by other members......there is only one person I know at CM who is a lawyer and he never dispenses legal advice. Nobody here is an expert and the best advice is to contact a rep or file a PAB.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
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VWM,

I don't agree with you in this case.

According to the Collins English Dictionary 10th Edition fraud can be defined as: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage".

I think that the use of a boot is fraud. I know that most of you might not agree to that. But to use a boot will give the player an advantage in his/hers way of gambling pattern that he/her would not have if playing without the use of a boot. I don't care if the player loses or win with the boot, it is clearly an attempt to get an advantage.

I do understand that it might seen "unfair" that Betsson confiscated his deposit. And you might be correct that Betsson may not have been "awarded" the whole amount in a lawsuit (as compensation). But to give the player his deposit back is like saying to players :

"please try to scam us. Its on the house anyway. If you manage to scam us, then hope you will enjoy your winnings. If you don't , well...here is your deposit back"

I think that it is a good course of dealing to withhold deposits when a player has attempted to scam a casino.
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Probably if you try to take legal actions to recover your deposits, they will take legal actions against you for cheating. I think you have no chance to get your money back..

This is Vegas! :cool:

They wouldn't, since there are no damages for them to claim. It would be different if the player won loads of money by cheating, and managed to cash it out.

What is illegal ( in the personal opinion/s of other members) is irrelevant.

If you play online with bots at any online casino you are going to have big problems, and anyone who knows about and uses bots KNOWS this fact. The only variations are the different coonsequences in each casinos terms and conditions which must be accepted before an account can be created.

As I said I dont like deposits being confiscated, but if this is in the terms then IMO the casino has the right to do it. You can't pick and choose the ones you like, just as in law. What might be illegal in one country might be quite ok in another and nobody should be relying on legal advice by other members......there is only one person I know at CM who is a lawyer and he never dispenses legal advice. Nobody here is an expert and the best advice is to contact a rep or file a PAB.

Using bots is not ILLEGAL, merely against the terms and conditions. Therefore is has nothing to do with CRIMINAL law, and is NOT fraud. It comes under CIVIL law, where action is taken to recover damages for a breach of contract. There is actually NOTHING in these terms that SAY that deposits can be confisacted, therefore it isn't even WITHIN THE TERMS to do so. Without a term specifying that deposits can be confiscated for using a bot, they have no real case for keeping the deposit.

Since the bot was used on Blackjack, rather than poker, there is no "cheating" involved. Poker bots cheat other players, making things far more complicated, since these other players CANNOT be allowed to lose out, and must be put back in the position they were in before they played against the bot, although if the won in good faith against the bot, they cannot have these WINNINGS removed. This is why in POKER the use of bots is more serious, and the damages much greater.

It is not justice to punish stupidity by taking EVERYTHING, only what is NECESSARY should be taken, that which is needed to counter the effects of said stupidity.

If a casino is "stupid enough" to pay me twice, does this mean I can keep ALL of it, however little it costs me to correct the error?

If a casino is "stupid enough" to make live a game with a +EV bug, does this mean they have to pay by being liable for ALL the money won with the bug?


When CASINOS make a mistake, they DON'T have unlimited liabilty, they often get to say "sorry", and pay only that needed to make good the cost and inconvenience suffered by a player. When a PLAYER makes a mistake, they should have the SAME level of liabilty to put right the casino by paying their costs in putting right the mistake.

The current behaviour of "one lenient law for us, a much harsher one for them" makes players see casinos as DESERVING of being "ripped off" because of their own stupidity, making players far less likely to REPORT a problem, than to milk it for all it's worth whilst they can, so long as the casino is "too daft to notice".

Often it's a case of "my turn now", where a player previously screwed over by a casino spots an opportunity to "get even", perhaps by spotting a bug, or cock-up in the design of an offer. Since the casino ripped them off, and got away with it, they don't see why they too shouldn't have a go to "get even".

If casinos treated players better, they would find players would hold them in much higher regard, and would therefore be less likely to take advantage of an error, and more likely to report it to help the casino not get screwed by others, and therefore unable to provide such good service in future.
 

Nifty29

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Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Well as I said, in the absence of expert legal opinion we must rely on the facts as they stand.

The player breached the terms and was dealt with according to those terms.

Rainmaker has an excellent point about the deterrent factor. If scammers think they have nothing to lose they will just try it more often.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Well as I said, in the absence of expert legal opinion we must rely on the facts as they stand.

The player breached the terms and was dealt with according to those terms.

Rainmaker has an excellent point about the deterrent factor. If scammers think they have nothing to lose they will just try it more often.

This is NOT an attempt to SCAM the casino though. Using a bot gives NO advantage, and is NOT cheating. This is MERELY a breach of the terms, nothing more serious than that.

Confiscation of deposits should be reserved for SERIOUS acts, and not used for the more trivial ones - it just makes the casino look greedy and rogue.

Confiscation of WINNINGS is controversial enough, and when those STUDENTS clearly breached the FIRST term at Club World, they DID get their DEPOSITS back, even though their WINNINGS were void. Despite this, that was one HELL of a controversial thread.
 

Jufo

Three-toed sloth
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Location
Finland
VWM,

I don't agree with you in this case.

According to the Collins English Dictionary 10th Edition fraud can be defined as: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage".

I think that the use of a boot is fraud. I know that most of you might not agree to that. But to use a boot will give the player an advantage in his/hers way of gambling pattern that he/her would not have if playing without the use of a boot. I don't care if the player loses or win with the boot, it is clearly an attempt to get an advantage.

I do understand that it might seen "unfair" that Betsson confiscated his deposit. And you might be correct that Betsson may not have been "awarded" the whole amount in a lawsuit (as compensation). But to give the player his deposit back is like saying to players :

"please try to scam us. Its on the house anyway. If you manage to scam us, then hope you will enjoy your winnings. If you don't , well...here is your deposit back"

I think that it is a good course of dealing to withhold deposits when a player has attempted to scam a casino.

Completely disagree. Using bots is far from fraud or scam and many softwares such as Microgaming actually have bots (=autoplay) implemented within the software.

Most casinos say that they support Responsible Gambling. Bots do just that: gamble responsibly as they don't get frustrated and up the bet size. So if a casino truly takes the Resposible Gambling commitment seriously they should allow and encourage the use of bots. Disallowing bots could be seen as a violation of commitment to Responsible Gambling regulations.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
webmeister
CAG
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Completely disagree. Using bots is far from fraud or scam and many softwares such as Microgaming actually have bots (=autoplay) implemented within the software.

Most casinos say that they support Responsible Gambling. Bots do just that: gamble responsibly as they don't get frustrated and up the bet size. So if a casino truly takes the Resposible Gambling commitment seriously they should allow and encourage the use of bots. Disallowing bots could be seen as a violation of commitment to Responsible Gambling regulations.


It is not very important to determine whether the use of a bot (in a isolated view) is fraud or not in this case. It gives the player an advantages he most likely would not have, so I think it is an attempted fraud. You disagree and think the use of a bot is not fraud. That's alright.

But, the player did sign up at Betsson. He did accept T&C where bots are clearly forbidden. Despite this, he chose to use a bot. This makes him a fraudster, but not necessarily a bad man.

Do not get blinded by the word "fraudster". It is a common thing :p
 

Jufo

Three-toed sloth
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Location
Finland
It is not very important to determine whether the use of a bot (in a isolated view) is fraud or not in this case. It gives the player an advantages he most likely would not have, so I think it is an attempted fraud. You disagree and think the use of a bot is not fraud. That's alright.

But, the player did sign up at Betsson. He did accept T&C where bots are clearly forbidden. Despite this, he chose to use a bot. This makes him a fraudster, but not necessarily a bad man.

Do not get blinded by the word "fraudster". It is a common thing :p

You say that using bots gives the player advantages he wouldn't otherwise have. Remember that with or without bots the player is always playing at mathematical disadvantage. If bots allow the player to reduce the extent of disadvantage they are playing at, then there should be absolutely no problem with that. It is no different than you choosing to play a slot with a very good payout rate instead of a slot with a bad payout rate. No casino can accuse you of fraud if you decide to play in a manner that limits your losses.

Anyway, the bottom line is that while Betsson's T&C disallow bots, the T&C doesn't mention confiscating deposits, so the T&C violation would have to be interpreted so that it only voids the bets made, it does not seem to allow deposit to be taken.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
webmeister
CAG
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You say that using bots gives the player advantages he wouldn't otherwise have. Remember that with or without bots the player is always playing at mathematical disadvantage. If bots allow the player to reduce the extent of disadvantage they are playing at, then there should be absolutely no problem with that. It is no different than you choosing to play a slot with a very good payout rate instead of a slot with a bad payout rate. No casino can accuse you of fraud if you decide to play in a manner that limits your losses.

Anyway, the bottom line is that while Betsson's T&C disallow bots, the T&C doesn't mention confiscating deposits, so the T&C violation would have to be interpreted so that it only voids the bets made, it does not seem to allow deposit to be taken.

This is from their T&C:

11. Breaches, penalties and termination

11.1.
If You breach any provision of these T&C or BETSSON has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, BETSSON reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.




As an addition:


11.3.
You acknowledge that BETSSON shall be the final decision-maker of whether You have violated Betsson’s rules, terms or conditions in a manner that results in BETSSON’s suspension or permanent barring from participation in our site.
 
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