Bogus Complaint Betfred Casino Issue: player account suspended pending investigation.

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Yup, but average Joe doesn't know how to change their registry but it also begs the question why someone would do this, if not to hide something. I see no advantage/fun in logging in and out on two different PCs on the same IP address 8 times without playing over a series of hours.

I don't understand how you think I'm mud slinging here, I'm just defending my position based on facts and common sense. It makes more sense that a bot was causing (given we have established a bot was used) the instant logins rather than someone on two PCs on the same IP address logging in and out for no apparent reason. Surely?

Cheers,

Aaron
 
It makes more sense that a bot was causing (given we have established a bot was used) the instant logins rather than someone on two PCs on the same IP address logging in and out for no apparent reason. Surely?

Cheers,

Aaron

Where, on pontoon?
 
Well, good example, think about IRC chat in mIRC for example. If you are on the same computer using more than two username or on more than two computer on same isp trying to connect to irc with more than two username. You get a ban with warning that no more than two person per isp or so. Because IRC is trying to protect from bot abuse also. So in Casino the casino bot will detect how many user per isp (per home) is connecting to even on dynamic. If casino bot detect more than two then the casino moderator would then start to investigate whats going on after a notification from their casino bot whose monitoring login/logoff etc.
 
2. The game didn't load in Flash and we were getting hit by a number of people that appeared to be using a bot; we put 2 and 2 together here and thought we were exposed and brought down the game across the board and contacted Playtech. The game is still unserviceable in Flash.

3. The slot logs were sent as the most suspicious as the thread boiled down to whether he lied about ever using a bot. He lost. The case was closed, but we offered to send as many logs as possible.

Doesn't make sense to me.

If you believe a number of people to be using a Bot, then surely those logs would be the most suspicious and therefore the first to be pullled and made available for outside verification.

Also, the thread didn't boil down to whether the player lied. If it had we wouldn't still be discussing this.

4. The payment method this user registered with meant we could verify age, based on that the GRA accept that ID checks outside the UK are then only required on withdrawals.

OK, I'm a bit rusty so will happily take your word on that. [STRIKE]Are we then to believe that this was the players first withdrawal?[/STRIKE]. We are then to believe this is the players first withdrawal. Also, do you do further checks on players once they have made an accumulated amount of deposits?

5. Ref the now infamous granny case - that was the offline division's decision and I can't speak on their behalf, but it is certainly not connected to this.

No, I wasn't suggesting it was connected to this. However it could be seen as an indication of an ethos within a company.
 
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How is changing your own registry on your own computer a breach of a casino's terms? that's just silly nonsense.

Considering how guilty the OP almost certainly is, Aaron has managed to turn this matter into one spectacular embarrassment for him and his company, imo. What a shambles :o

No offence to Aaron who is clearly out of his depth here, but I feel embarrassed for him now :(
 
betfred

RE Betfred statement #301 If the OP was using a Bot then why would he or it log in so many times and not play???
 
I now consider this issue closed having won the PAB twice and answered everything that was asked of me by official personnel here and by independent third parties.

Kind regards,

Aaron
 
I now consider this issue closed having won the PAB twice and answered everything that was asked of me by official personnel here and by independent third parties.

Kind regards,

Aaron

ROFLMAO

Ill leave the thread then with my opinion.

The OP used a Bot on in the first instance, that is without doubt.
He then saw what a gigantic FU Betfred had made in this promotion (Trust me, IF they do bring it back, you will be betting £25 per hand. The promo staff were incompetent without doubt)
BF never expected a car to be won. Then when it did panic management emerged. Pontoon is BJ, Isnt. How it was playtech wide then when it was realised it wasnt it was isolated.

The panic management has continued when whats been given in the PAB. I mean come on, he didnt get the car because of Pontoon, then BOT play NOW he hasnt passed KYC. Just one excuse after another.

It has been deemed that irrespective of BOT play on pontoon (Which from what Ive read, no one has provided any proof to the third party to verify) that because of his previous, he is banned si ni and any awards would be barred. Personally dont agree with that but thats my Opinion.

We then here that a Bot logged off then logged in. WHY would it. Any experience player will tell you there is no need too but the Rep is relying on tracing technology that was used 7 years ago, hence the registry values.

When its identified that half the world knows about this little secret, its then against the Terms to delete it.

THAT IN ITSELF shows to me how Betfred will attempt to manipulate their terms and conditions to suit their own needs.
 
I think it is unfair to blame the rep personally for betfreds failings on this matter, their actions are more representative of their customer ethos.

I think everyone with any sense realises that betfred had solid reasonable grounds for refusing to pay the OP 30k, it's just betfreds failings have been exposed as well.
 
Yup, but average Joe doesn't know how to change their registry but it also begs the question why someone would do this, if not to hide something. I see no advantage/fun in logging in and out on two different PCs on the same IP address 8 times without playing over a series of hours.

I don't understand how you think I'm mud slinging here, I'm just defending my position based on facts and common sense. It makes more sense that a bot was causing (given we have established a bot was used) the instant logins rather than someone on two PCs on the same IP address logging in and out for no apparent reason. Surely?

Cheers,

Aaron

I have little idea about how these things do happen. But one obvious way where login and out occurs fast is when someone login to flash on the SAME computerm, which logs you out automatically from the download version. I guess this is what happened.

Aaron, maybe you leave this login and out to rest?
I think it is more technically complicated than anybody here can judge anyway. We will not bring new experts to inquire on *this*. will we?
 
I'm a new member but have been following this thread for days now. Not here to sling mud, point fingers or get into a flame war with anyone. But imo, there has been a few decisions made which are not impartial, at all. What these are, I'll leave you to ponder.

Whether the OP is legit or not, everyone deserves fair justice and, the right to stand up again their accusers. Remove & deny this basic human right, disrespects every person who has laid down their life fighting in World Wars and other campaigns, to uphold these just virtues. And in doing so, saved future generations (you and I) from oppressed tyranny.

my 5p worth.
 
I now consider this issue closed having won the PAB twice and answered everything that was asked of me by official personnel here and by independent third parties.

The thing is that many others don't consider the issue closed and are still expecting answers to unanswered questions. There are several people in this thread who were willing to pay to review the Pontoon logs. Since these are the only relevant logs to this issue anyway, how about finally stop hiding these logs in your pocket and send them for analysis. The opinion of many is that this is the least you should do before closing the matter, otherwise your handling of this issue looks nothing but a whitewash.
 
I'm a new member but have been following this thread for days now. Not here to sling mud, point fingers or get into a flame war with anyone. But imo, there has been a few decisions made which are not impartial, at all. What these are, I'll leave you to ponder.

Whether the OP is legit or not, everyone deserves fair justice and, the right to stand up again their accusers. Remove & deny this basic human right, disrespects every person who has laid down their life fighting in WW and other campaigns, to uphold these just virtues. And in doing so, saved future generations (you and I) from oppressed tyranny.

my 5p worth.
Then they guy needs to go to the GRA where he can get justice :thumbsup:
 
But will he get justice, how many times have people been proven guilty straight away,and then have to take years to clear their name,not saying he is innocent,but as a lot of people have stated,why are the pontoon logs not being looked at,and on the same point,if you are convicted of doing something months earlier,it does not mean that you are automatically guilty if accused of a similar thing,I don't think I am alone in thinking that this may go on for some time.If I were in the OP's place,then I would just take it to a court of law and let them decide,at least that way,if he was found to be telling lies,then he might end up in "HMP",but if he is telling the truth,then what are the odds of Betfred paying him interest on his winnings,my guess about 100/1
 
Whether the OP is legit or not, everyone deserves fair justice and, the right to stand up again their accusers. Remove & deny this basic human right, disrespects every person who has laid down their life fighting in World Wars and other campaigns, to uphold these just virtues. And in doing so, saved future generations (you and I) from oppressed tyranny.

my 5p worth.

Have you been asleep since the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights actually meant something?, you`ll find democracy and freedom of speech buried underneath the Patriot Act somewhere :D.
 
but if he is telling the truth,then what are the odds of Betfred paying him interest on his winnings,my guess about 100/1


They would have too. Section 69 of the County Courts Act @8% (Id move to the UK to do it :) )
 
However, we can also point to logins to the download software during the Pontoon session in question, where the user was able to log out of the software and log back in within a second. No human can do this and is indicative of a device artificially creating a session, bypassing mouse actions, reaction time, and log out messages etc. No game rounds were taking place so there were no broken games (which would make logging in quicker), and as the user was not playing he therefore had no reason to immediately log back in again. This happened 8 times on the day in question over a span of many un-played hours. These then proceed extended sessions of Pontoon throughout the day, playing rapidly. All of which suggest the player was 'tuning' the bot to sustain and pick up dropped sessions before getting the bot to play.

When you say playing rapidly, do you mean faster than is possible for a human, or just very quick?

The problem I have with this evidence above is I cannot see the reason why a player would build a bot to bypass the mouse actions, reaction times etc, unless it was to get in more hands than is humanly possible. Else the extra work involved would simply be a waste of effort, as most bots are built with functions which mimic mouse movements as it is quicker and easier. If he had built a bot which works faster than a human, then of course he would be rather foolish, as that could easily be checked by anyone.


With this combined picture, it would be interesting to know what conclusion the readers here would have drawn.

As stated before, most readers agree it most likely he was using a bot. However, the process gone through in this thread has also put together a combined picture in regards Betfred that many are not comfortable with, hence it still continuing.


PS: I realise all my posts in this thread have been replies to you, however I hope you do not feel I am harassing or attacking you, as that is not my aim, particularly as I realise much of the information you have posted and passed on will have been indeed passed on to you originally by various other parties.
 
The OP used a Bot on in the first instance, that is without doubt.
He then saw what a gigantic FU Betfred had made in this promotion (Trust me, IF they do bring it back, you will be betting £25 per hand. The promo staff were incompetent without doubt)
BF never expected a car to be won. Then when it did panic management emerged. Pontoon is BJ, Isnt. How it was playtech wide then when it was realised it wasnt it was isolated.

The panic management has continued when whats been given in the PAB. I mean come on, he didnt get the car because of Pontoon, then BOT play NOW he hasnt passed KYC. Just one excuse after another.

This is the crux of the matter for me.

1) The player had used a bot in the past at Betfred, and Betfred could deny him payment on that basis. I don't think anyone here is arguing otherwise. However, it still sucks that a casino sees fit to dig up months old evidence of previous 'T&C abuse' to deny payment on a current promotion, and then just adds a load of other stuff into the mix on a daily basis.

Red Flush for example have the
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, and if it is all winnings can be voided. So if I use autoplay this week for slots play, and two months later I win the progressive on a single manual spin of Tunzamunni, we're apparently setting a precedent here whereby they can turn around and say 'you broke our T&Cs in the past, we're not paying you'.

Far fetched? Maybe. But TBH I'd have said that what's transpired in this thread was pretty far-fetched until I actually saw it with my own eyes.

2) Betfred come out of all this looking just awful, I kind of feel sorry for Aaron, as he's basically been trying to clear up Betfred's incompetence and obfuscation right from the off - but that doesn't change the fact that the overall impression that I, as a player, am left with of Betfred as an online casino is that I'd never touch them in a million years with someone else's bargepole.

It jars with me that this is an accredited casino and a current Casinomeister's Pick, because for me it cheapens what both of those things should mean.

As I posted yesterday evening:

Betfred never had a Jag, never intended to give away a Jag, and were surprised when they were called upon to do so.

Some excellent posts from the player community on this thread since last night, and TBH they've covered pretty much everything else I would have said so I see no point in repeating those comments with slightly different words.
 
IMHO casinos bring this type of fiasco on themselves by offering grand promotions of this sort.

The industry has been around long enough to be aware that this type of promo is inviting bot users, fraudsters etc, so it should not come as a surprise to them that this will occur.

I can't help but imagine their hope that a "winner" will indeed be one of the above as in this case. The result is a large amount of income for the casino spent on a promo which is then closed without having to produce their grand prize and having a whole country banned in the process.

The idea that another promo of this kind is probable in the future just tells me that they are indeed NOT smart enough to learn from past lessons, or do not care. They made their money and are happy. All the players that joined this promo are the losers.
 
The industry has been around long enough to be aware that this type of promo is inviting bot users, fraudsters etc, so it should not come as a surprise to them that this will occur.

This is one of the things that alarms me most about this promotion, it's absolutely GAGGING to be attacked by a bot.

It's there on Bryan's philosophy page, it's their own damn fault. If a casino can't design a sensible bonus when EVERY SINGLE GAME ON THE BOOKS has a built-in advantage in their favour, even with perfect strategy on the player's part - they really should find something else to do, rather than cry 'foul' and look for any button to press that shows the player 'broke a rule'.

The other issue that I have with this promotion is that it's basically inducement to gamble, and to gamble an awful lot.

I feel the same way about online casino 'competitions' whereby the way to win is to wager the most. That's not a competition as I understand it, that's just a straight-up statement of 'Gamble, gamble, GAMBLE SOME MORE AND KEEP GAMBLING and we might chuck a prize your way'.

This promotion works in the same way, the more one gambles, the closer one gets to the prize. And we're not talking lottery odds here, no one I've ever known spends stupid amounts of money on lottery tickets to give them more of a chance to win, because they know the odds will always be astronomically small. Yeah they might buy a few extra tickets on a big rollover week but that's about it.

The thing about the Jag Promo is that it looks pretty beatable, it's a real inducement to start gambling and to keep gambling, because the chances of landing the winning hand are within the realms of the reasonably achievable.

I still think Betfred were caught on the hop when someone did actually beat it though, this thread is ample evidence of that.
 
Um why is this debate still going, it is rendering useless now after investigation is completed. We had all the question answered already. Why not take your time to read from first page of this thread to here and then make comment or so but no repeating question. I see lots of repeat is driving me to the wall. Please quit debating as it is no use now. Betfred had already made a final decision and I have already read evidence very carefully and I understood these very well. I can't see anymore question and the decision was final that made by Betfred. His account is closed and deposit returned if possible he knew clearly he breached the T&C for using bot to use as a bonus abuse also. He should've know very well bot is not allowed in most casino these day. Bot is a cheater as I said before in here few days ago. Anyway enough for now.
 
This is the crux of the matter for me.

Betfred never had a Jag, never intended to give away a Jag, and were surprised when they were called upon to do so.

I think they are just stubborn.

It is weird. there were casinos that paid half a million bucks just for reputation sake.


The straight way is to have clear results on the pontoon bot allegation.

But *for betFred reputation* there is only one way out. to give the Jaguar.


I was not thinking so before. I still think that we got first to find out the pontoon bot evidence.

But as far as betfred reputation gets, they did so much damage to themselves IMHO, that only paying out the jaguar will fix their sorry image.
It is amazing how careless a large company can be with their reputation and brand value. they will lose so much just to "keep their ground"
 
Just for clarification, from my (average) maths , the odds of hitting 3 diamond 7's are about 1 in 150,000.

80,000 or so is typically the average of when the first diamond 7s set would appear.
Someone else has already corrected the 1 in 150,000 figure, but if it were correct, it would take on average 150000 hands to hit it.
 
1/210,000 for an eight deck game. it is basically 1/52 (first 7 diamonds) * 7/415 (7 such cards left in a deck with one card taken out) * 6/414
For 6 decks it is combin(312,3)/combin(6,3) = 250666. For 8 decks it is combin(416,3)/combin(8,3) = 212717.

Suppose a player played 212717 hands of blackjack, perfectly (say the house edge is 0.50%), wagering $1 per hand. Then the total amount the casino expects to win from the player is about $1064. That's not much to pay for a car in expected value, making it a premium AP opportunity.
 
Let's remember here that a bot can't do anything that a human can't do in terms of beating the games, yes it can play faster and potentially hit optimal strategy more consistently, but ultimately bot play is simply a fast and efficient version of human play - it doesn't change the odds of the game.
There are also other things to consider. If a promotion or a game with positive expectation gave a player an expected profit of $1/hour with optimal strategy, not many people in the developed world would consider playing it by hand a great moneymaking opportunity, particularly since the errors would probably wipe out the expected profit. However, if you can get a bot play it without errors 24 hours a day, it would be a very welcome extra income to a lot of people.
 
For 6 decks it is combin(312,3)/combin(6,3) = 250666. For 8 decks it is combin(416,3)/combin(8,3) = 212717.

Suppose a player played 212717 hands of blackjack, perfectly (say the house edge is 0.50%), wagering $1 per hand. Then the total amount the casino expects to win from the player is about $1064. That's not much to pay for a car in expected value, making it a premium AP opportunity.

The small factor you overlooked is that the hand also needed to win so you need to also consider 21 pushing in BJ or losing in Pontoon (not that rare and nearly happened to the OP in the screenshot).

Yes it is a premium AP opportunity but an entirely legitimate one. The person who discovers it can consider themselves lucky. If the casino did their maths they realized that they expect to lose money on this promotion. On the other hand, the free advertising and new players the promotion brings in might factor in for the casino to run the promotion anyway. Several people have claimed this promo to be ill-thought and but I have never seen Betfred rep to mention anything of the sort. He said they really wanted to give a car or £30K away (even multiple ones). They wanted to be generous and were going to be generous.

By playing manually a player playing the entire duration of the promo is far from quaranteed to win the prize. I did some calculations back in post #93 to determine the time needed to play 200K hands. With a bot the play speed & time and thus the probability to win the prize is considerably increased. Therefore, Eliot, don't you agree that looking at the player's Pontoon logs would be the most relevant thing here to determine whether a bot was used and thus the terms of this promotion broken or not? At this point we don't even know whether the player hit the hand very early or only after expected number of hands played.

People also considered your speculation in post #200 quite wild and unsubstantiated based on the information you had been given to. The comments didn't seem impartial, something of which is not expected from an independent mediator.
 
There are also other things to consider. If a promotion or a game with positive expectation gave a player an expected profit of $1/hour with optimal strategy, not many people in the developed world would consider playing it by hand a great moneymaking opportunity, particularly since the errors would probably wipe out the expected profit. However, if you can get a bot play it without errors 24 hours a day, it would be a very welcome extra income to a lot of people.

But this goes back to the quotation presented on CM's philosophy page, if a casino designs any game or bonus that has a positive expectation for the player simply by virtue of the fact that he plays it an awful lot, the people running that casino probably aren't cut out for the job.

The 'global online casino business' reaches every country in the world, many countries where life is very cheap. If there's a casino game out there that can earn $1 per hour with optimal play, you can bet your arse that some evil bastard somewhere will find human beings to man a bunch of PCs 24/7 to make that 1$ per hour on their behalf.
 
Hi Elliot,

I think most members are greatful for the work you have done on this case, however this section of your post and theory doesn't seem logical to me, and I was hoping you could clear up a few things.

1 - You state that the player was testing the bot on low level slots, however a bot can be roughly broken up into 3 sections: the GUI part, the decision making process, the program to tie it all together. If he was testing it on the slot game, in order to alter it to play pontoon he would have to make significant changes, such that the testing on the slots would become irrelevant. In fact I have never heard of a bot being tested on a different game altogether, the standard approach would be to test it on a play for free version of the game where of course no money is risked.

2 - The slot play started in May, yet the pontoon promotion was in August. As such it seems highly unlikely to me that he would be working on a prototype pontoon bot whilst playing slots, as he wouldn't be aware of the promotion launching in 3 months time.

I see your point in 1.

My question is.....knowing what you (we) generally know about players that feel the need to use bots, how likely to you think it is that the ocean princess bot is the only one the OP ever has or ever intended to use/build? What would be the point of the slot bot that produced almost no profit and where (IIRC) no bonus WR was involved?

Do you also realize that big promos like these aren't formed in a hour....they are often planned months ahead. Even if it was planned a month ahead (minimum time I would expect), what's to say that the OP wasn't tipped off about it by an employee or high-flying affy, who often get advance info on such things?

Betfred is not saying they used the SAME bot....just that they used A bot. The patterns etc were described as "identical".....not the bot itself, as obviously the games are different. Perhaps the wrong choice of word, but the meaning, to an open minded reader, is obvious I.e. that A bot was used in both cases.

Those who are screaming that "the promo was ill-conceived etc" because it was open to bot use/abuse are forgetting something quite important.....BOT PLAY IS VERBOTEN at betfred....full stop....so there was NO risk of players cheating with a bot because betfred was not obliged to payout according to their terms and conditions which THE OP ACCEPTED. As some others pointed out, its possible that ten people could have won a jag just playing normally.....the odds aren't good, but its certainly possible....so people like chopley and GOCC stating that betfred "never had a jag to giveaway" or "never intended" to give one away are really way off the mark (as well as being very close to accusing bf of fraud).

I'll say it again.....why is it that the same people who rant and rave about wanting all the evidence themselves etc in this matter never insist on it when the PAB goes in the player's favour, with little or no evidence being provided publically, but only Max and Bryans word being enough? I'm sure there have been PABs where the player has pulled a stroke....where are all the "champions of justice" then?

Remember....the OP initially REFUSED to release the play logs. Very suspicious from someone with nothing to hide, yes? In fact, if I were the innocent genuine winner of $30k, I would move hell and high water to get my cash/car.....I would even stump up the dough myself to clear my name and get my prize. The fact that Alex is only happy for a review to take place if others pay for it speaks volumes, and he must be having a good giggle at those putting up their hard-earned. APs and potential bot users should be telling him to shut his trap and slip quietly away.....all he is doing is allowing deeper investigation into him and his activity, which means more knowledge for the operators and definite industry blacklisting for him.
 
But this goes back to the quotation presented on CM's philosophy page, if a casino designs any game or bonus that has a positive expectation for the player simply by virtue of the fact that he plays it an awful lot, the people running that casino probably aren't cut out for the job.

The 'global online casino business' reaches every country in the world, many countries where life is very cheap. If there's a casino game out there that can earn $1 per hour with optimal play, you can bet your arse that some evil bastard somewhere will find human beings to man a bunch of PCs 24/7 to make that 1$ per hour on their behalf.

Nobody is arguing about the CM philosophy. It's just irrelevant to the issue.

Bot play is FORBIDDEN. The reason is immaterial. The OP ACCEPTED that when they created their account. If he wanted to use a bot legally, he should have played where it wasn't prohibited.
 
Those who are screaming that "the promo was ill-conceived etc" because it was open to bot use/abuse are forgetting something quite important.....BOT PLAY IS VERBOTEN at betfred....full stop....so there was NO risk of players cheating with a bot because betfred was not obliged to payout according to their terms and conditions which THE OP ACCEPTED.

There is a risk for players and this thread just proved it. The risk is: Join our promo and gamble away to your heart's content to win the Jag BUT if we find that a potential winner has used a bot then the promo is closed, we keep all that you have gambled and we also get to keep the Jag!! (which might be used at another time for another promo so stayed tuned folks)

Sounds like a win/win for the casino, not so much for the players.
 
For 6 decks it is combin(312,3)/combin(6,3) = 250666. For 8 decks it is combin(416,3)/combin(8,3) = 212717.

Suppose a player played 212717 hands of blackjack, perfectly (say the house edge is 0.50%), wagering $1 per hand. Then the total amount the casino expects to win from the player is about $1064. That's not much to pay for a car in expected value, making it a premium AP opportunity.

Well the more relevant issue is actually the value of a hand and how long it takes. If there was a zero edge game on offer but it took 212 million hands to win, it wouldn't be as good as this game with a small casino edge but a short time to win the prize.

Here each hand is worth around 12 cents, so if you played 1000 hands per hour that would be $120 of expected value per hour. If you played 12 hours a day for a week (7 days), you'd have just under a 30% chance of winning a car. Of course you might win nothing, but in that case all you have lost is a week of your time.

So it's perfectly viable to play by hand without a bot for extended periods of time with a serious intent to winning. You could even encourage your friends to do the same and sell the car and split the proceeds on winning.
 
Now that my report has been submitted and posted, I finally read this thread. I purposely did not read this information so that I could stay unbiased in reaching my conclusions. I never spoke to BetFred or the player directly. Everything was handled through Bryan.

I would like to share my informal opinion, after having read this thread and understood this matter more fully.

In U.S. land based casinos there are often car giveaways. It is not at all unusual for advantage players (APs) to target these promotions by "stuffing the box" with entries. APs I have known like to brag about the cars they've won, it's like earning an Eagle Scout badge. I have heard rumours of this being done online, but I had never before encountered a case of this.

Here is a case where APs won a lot of cars that I wrote about in my blog:

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Now that I know that Alex won a car, the matter becomes very clear. He built and tested his robot software on a low-level slot. He needed a slot with some secondary decision making feature to model what he would need for blackjack. By targeting a slot at a minimal bet level, he hoped to go unnoticed. This was simply the development stage for his software.

Your conclusion is a way wide of the mark.

I had a quick look at the 'slot' in question, and it plainly has a non-trivial strategy (if you draw two unrelated symbols which do you keep?), which may have been published somewhere, but could be derived by exhaustive analysis, at another casino, in free play mode, whatever.

His game selection screams advantage play, and has nothing to do with bot testing on 'low-level slots', which could have been done as mentioned in free play mode, or on another Playtech site prior to deployment, but rather, as Betfred already suggested, that he was completing the wagering for a bonus, and he had come to the conclusion that playing correct strategy on this game was the most profitable way to withdraw that bonus. You do not make 50,000 + test spins on an unconnected game in order to go unnoticed!

Clearly he had used bots to complete the wagering for a bonus. That is naughty.

However there is an obvious difference between a player clearing a £100 bonus using a bot and winning a £30k car. He might be willing to risk the £100 bonus (or whatever it was) by bot use, but yet that does not prove he would emperil a £30k car by doing the same, he may well have decided that he would play these games by hand. A bot user might use a bot in one situation, that doesn't mean they always do, even though it would be suggestive that they would do so in future.

It seems to me that Betfred had investigated his account and were aware of the bot usage on the slot poker game. They sent these logs, which are plainly damning, rather than the pontoon logs, which are the pertinent thing in this case. Rather an unfortunate decision, as was the initial email excluding winnings for not playing blackjack.

Just as the player has not answered obvious questions in a straightforward manner, neither has the casino. It would have shut this thread down long ago (or not!) to provide the actual relevant logs rather than play on an unrelated game for unrelated games. Unfortunately this is so often the case....

Personally I would like to see the Pontoon logs and honestly hope that they show in an obvious manner that he did use a bot. If they do not however, or are ambiguous, the case is a much more difficult one.
 
There is a risk for players and this thread just proved it. The risk is: Join our promo and gamble away to your heart's content to win the Jag BUT if we find that a potential winner has used a bot then the promo is closed, we keep all that you have gambled and we also get to keep the Jag!! (which might be used at another time for another promo so stayed tuned folks)

Sounds like a win/win for the casino, not so much for the players.

You're almost right.

There IS a risk.....but it is BY the player not FOR the player. Bot play is forbidden, so if you use one, YOU are taking a risk that you'll be caught out and refused your claim.

If you play WITHOUT a bot, there is NO risk (assuming your ID is OK).

FYI, it wasn't THE Jag.....it was A Jag. The casino did not limit the giveaway to ONE Jag.

Do you really believe all players should get their money back (as per your took all we gambled statement)? Really?? You GAMBLED that money. If you lost, you lost. You could have won.

If you really think a genuine player taking up this promo is taking a risk beyond losing their money on the game itself, then you haven't been reading. In fact, your statements have no factual basis at all.
 
FYI, it wasn't THE Jag.....it was A Jag. The casino did not limit the giveaway to ONE Jag.

If you really think a genuine player taking up this promo is taking a risk beyond losing their money on the game itself, then you haven't been reading. In fact, your statements have no factual basis at all.

Interesting that they have more than one Jag...but they haven't given even one away in this promo..I believe that's a fact

The risk is not losing their money on a game, we all do that. The risk is that the prize may never be awarded as long as casinos cannot detect fraudulent activity prior to allowing the frauds to play. Perhaps the casinos should state on their promos "There might be a prize but maybe not..it depends."

As for your statement that I haven't been reading, your statement has no factual basis at all. :)

Good night Nifty
 
Do you also realize that big promos like these aren't formed in a hour....they are often planned months ahead. Even if it was planned a month ahead (minimum time I would expect), what's to say that the OP wasn't tipped off about it by an employee or high-flying affy, who often get advance info on such things?

Yes, I do realize promotions are often formed months in advance, however I would see no reason why this information would be released so early to any affiliate, and frankly I think this is moving into conspiracy theory territory in order to justify the theory put up earlier by Elliot.

If on the other hand this information was available to the player that far in advance, which I believe to be highly unlikely, then Betfred have some serious security issues which they need to address.
 
Please read what I posted. His gameplay was identical in BJ.
Seems I misspoke here. What I meant to say was that much of his playing behavior was identical - the use of some kind of software that assisted his play. My apologies for not being more precise. Sorry about that but it's been a long week.

Yes, I do realize promotions are often formed months in advance, however I would see no reason why this information would be released so early to any affiliate, and frankly I think this is moving into conspiracy theory territory in order to justify the theory put up earlier by Elliot.

If on the other hand this information was available to the player that far in advance, which I believe to be highly unlikely, then Betfred have some serious security issues which they need to address.
I think we moved into conspiracy theory territory about 15-20 pages ago. :p

You sure seem to know a lot for someone who signed up yesterday. I'm curious to know more about your background. Please PM me. Thanks!
 
You sure seem to know a lot for someone who signed up yesterday. I'm curious to know more about your background. Please PM me. Thanks!

Happy to share with everyone. I am ex-industry, having worked in payments/fraud before doing some consulting work. Have been out of the industry a while though, hence some of my information may be out of date/incorrect (ie Gibraltar KYC requirements).
 
1/210,000 for an eight deck game.

it is basically 1/52 (first 7 diamonds) * 7/415 (7 such cards left in a deck with one card taken out) * 6/414

My intitial maths was wrong (it was hurried and done late at night) , however if an event has a 1 in 210,000 chance of happening , then the execpted number of hands that need to be played before it occurs is less than 210,000, as far as i can remember from my University days.

Whatever the exact numbers, this promo, as a whole, has a huge positive benefit for the player and an expected large loss for the casino.

Raj
 
BOTS?

I am not computer savy although i have read about bots still done understand how those can help a player win since if they tried to use a bot it would be on their computer, the only i can see it actually working is if the bot was installed on the main server that the game was coming from. I know some people do cheat, and some casino's try to claim player fraud, its back and forth. We need a good way to make sure everything is done fairly on both sides. When players cheat, their account is banned they lose their deposit (or so its said) and no winnings. When casino's cheat, not much happens yet, they are still in operation, still taking peoples money etc. I am just looking at this from both sides and not picking just thinking outloud.
 
You're almost right.

There IS a risk.....but it is BY the player not FOR the player. Bot play is forbidden, so if you use one, YOU are taking a risk that you'll be caught out and refused your claim.

If you play WITHOUT a bot, there is NO risk (assuming your ID is OK).

FYI, it wasn't THE Jag.....it was A Jag. The casino did not limit the giveaway to ONE Jag.

Do you really believe all players should get their money back (as per your took all we gambled statement)? Really?? You GAMBLED that money. If you lost, you lost. You could have won.

If you really think a genuine player taking up this promo is taking a risk beyond losing their money on the game itself, then you haven't been reading. In fact, your statements have no factual basis at all.

True they gambled no argument there at all and on the if they lost yep they lost, but on the could have won part, the chances were move in favor of them losing than winning lol. Whats the saying, you have a better chance of getting struck by lighting than winning.:)
 
My intitial maths was wrong (it was hurried and done late at night) , however if an event has a 1 in 210,000 chance of happening , then the execpted number of hands that need to be played before it occurs is less than 210,000, as far as i can remember from my University days.

No, the expected number of hands for an event with probability p is 1/p (assuming independent random events).
 
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