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Bogus Complaint Betfred Casino Issue: player account suspended pending investigation.

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by AlexanderK, Aug 23, 2012.

Thread Status:
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    Aug 23, 2012
  1. AlexanderK

    AlexanderK Banned User - fraudster - bogus PAB PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario


    Betfred Casino offered a promotion entitled "Blackjack 7s Special" which is described here.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.


    In short, BlackJack players were offered different prizes for winning hands consisting of the three sevens. For the three unsuited sevens the prize was 10xBet, for the three sevens of clubs, hearts, or spades the prize was 100xBet, and for the three diamond sevens the prize was a a new Jaguar XF or a price equivalent of GBP 29,940, regardless of the bet amount.

    The term "blackjack" was never explicitly defined; the promo text simply said "Play Blackjack at Betfred Casino" while the terms further specified the exceptions: Duel Blackjack, Blackjack Surrender, Lucky Blackjack and Blackjack scratchcards. Sometime around August 14th they added Blackjack Switch to the list.

    From the remaining BlackJack games I chose Pontoon as the one having the lowest house edge. It was in the "Blackjack" menu, but I decided to clarify it with the customer service rep in chat. The representative confirmed that as long as it was not listed as an excluded game, it was valid. So I hit the tables. And on August the 17th I hit the three diamond sevens

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    When I contacted the support I was told I did not win the prize as Pontoon was not a Blackjack game. When I asked for an explanation, weird stuff started happening. They made some changes to their web site, including the instant play casino. In the download version they removed pontoon alltogether! Apparently, they were not able to simply move it away from the BlackJack menu and so they had to have it disappear. As of writing this message, the game was still not available. Here is the proving screenshot.

    [​IMG]


    Unfortunately I have not screenshot it when it was available. But you can check any other Playtech casino. Wherever the "blackjack menu" exists, Pontoon is in there. Wherever the search exists, Pontoon is subtitled "BlackJack" when found. Not a "blackjack game", or "blackjack like game", just "blackjack". Here are some screenshots.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Additionally, while cleaning their web site of the "pontoon evidence" Betfred missed some of the important traces. For example the wagering contribution table from the high roller bonus table You must register/login in order to see the link. has the following line:

    Blackjack (all varieties, excluding Pontoon, Blackjack Switch and Blackjack Surrender)

    if Pontoon is not a blackjack game to begin with, why list as an exception in the blackjack line? This was among the other questions I asked them on August the 19. They took a pause and then on August 20th I got another email from them. Now it did not mention the Pontoon issue. Instead, they said... I was using a bot. Which they concluded based on my gaming patterns. And therefore my winnings are void and my account is locked.

    This was ridiculous.Yes, I was playing a lot - for hours. One needs to play a lot to see a rare event like this. The promo was limited in time. They kept excluding the games. So I was playing and playing. But my play never went beyond the human capacity. I will be more then happy to repeat it by playing the same amount of time without stopping, while observed by a Betfred authorized agent in person. Also it should be noted that immediately after hitting the 3 sevens I stopped playing, took a screenshot and started talking in a chat. Can that be also done by a bot?

    After asking them these questions I was presented with another surprise. I was informed that Canadian players are ineligible for the promotion according to the terms and conditions, and therefore I am not allowed to play and win. However, Google cache still shows the old terms You must register/login in order to see the link. and I kept the screenshot of the old terms as well:

    [​IMG]

    Thank you for reading through the end. In summary I would like to say that Betfred is applying hideous tactics and otherwise going out of their way to find a reason not to pay a prize they offered. So at very least there is no way Betfred should be given the "accredited" status.

    And of course I want my 30,000 GBP I honestly won.

    If required, I am ready to provide the full screenshots, transaction histories, timestamps as well as any identification documents necessary.
     
    14 people like this.
  2. Aug 23, 2012
  3. rainmaker

    rainmaker I'm not a penguin CAG webmeister

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    Hi!

    Welcome to this great forum. I see it is your first post.

    I just wanted to give you the link to Betfred's casino manager. As you may know, they are accredited here on Casinomeister. You should send him a private message.

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/betfred.html

    You also have the opportunity to later do a pitch a bitch which is described here:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/faq.php?faq=cmfaq_pab


    I do not know whether you have a case or not, as I only read through your post very quickly. But I would advise you not to continue discussing your case openly in the forum at this point (in case you need to do a PAB later). But first, send the rep a private message and wait for his reply. He is very helpful.
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Aug 23, 2012
  5. Seventh777

    Seventh777 RIP Roy

    Occupation:
    Builder, mainly renovations.
    Location:
    Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
  6. Aug 23, 2012
  7. butterflyboogie

    butterflyboogie Senior Member MM

    Occupation:
    Making Money
    Location:
    Casino Oblivion
    If the rep does not give you the answers you need then definately read the conditions of pitch a bitch. Max, the one that handles these is out on vacation however he will be back. He is very thorough at what he does so be sure and comply with what is required. I hope you get your money; from what I read, which was the entire thing, and viewing the pontoon listed as a bj came with other playtech casinos, it seems you should have won. Good luck to you and do not give up.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Aug 23, 2012
  9. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    Thank you for a well reasoned, balanced and polite version of events - made reading a lot of information very easy.

    Welcome to the forum; I hope you get paid. :thumbsup:
     
    3 people like this.
  10. Aug 23, 2012
  11. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Well on the face of it I'd say its a case of "pay the player".

    I don't understand why betfred would WANT to refuse payment.....imagine the PR from "Player wins $30k from $1 blackjack!!".

    I will say that pontoon is usually NOT considered blackjack, but they make it appear as though it is.

    The only issue is when they changed the terms I.e. before you won or after. Since no code or entry acceptance was required, if they changed it after the promo started but before you won, you might be SOL on a technicality.
     
    4 people like this.
  12. Aug 23, 2012
  13. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Totally agree with Slotster & Nifty.
    I personally would not call Pontoon Blackjack - but it is completely clear from what AlexanderK posted, that is WAS classed as such at BetFred.

    Looks like the promotions team messed up when writing the rules for this bonus. Is this the players fault? NO!
    Pay the player - we don't need another Betfair fiasco... :(

    KK
     
    2 people like this.
  14. Aug 23, 2012
  15. Redbet-Andy

    Redbet-Andy Dormant account - New account: AndyB-MrGreen

    Occupation:
    Casino and marketing
    Location:
    Malta
    I was surprised at that, as often Pontoon is considered a variant of Blackjack. Seems it depends where in the world you live...

    From Wikipedia:
    Pontoon is an unlicensed variant of the American game Spanish 21 that is played in Australian, Malaysian and Singaporean casinos,[1] in Treasury Casino, Brisbane, it is known as Treasury 21. In Jupiters Casino, Gold Coast, it is known as Jupiters 21, in The Reef Casino, Cairns, it is known as Paradise Pontoon, and in Tasmania, it is known as Federal Pontoon.[2]

    It should not be confused with the British blackjack variant, which is also called Pontoon, found in the UK and Commonwealth, and played with regular 52-card decks.
     
  16. Aug 23, 2012
  17. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    A very well-written post from the OP together with good reasoning and relevant screenshots. I cannot see how Betfred can wriggle out of this but then their reputation for the past 2 years has been less than stellar.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Aug 23, 2012
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    What appears to drop Betfred right in it is the lengths it has gone to in order to make "inconvenient truths" simply disappear, rather than using an already existing term and condition. It seems every time the OP managed to shoot down one reason for not awarding the prize, Betfred came up with another, and another, even to the extent of changing the website and then claiming it had always been that way.

    This is 100% PAB material, and the minor inconvenience of Max being away should be outweighed by the potential of getting the prize. Max & Bryan will spot any bullshit a mile off, and will start with the OP's PAB form. It is important to keep any evidence of these changes, along with any exchanges with CS and management. Avoid use of chat & phone, get their excuses in writing via email.

    It seems the whole thing was caused when CS gave the OP a verbal assurance that play on Pontoon was OK as it was not listed as an excluded Blackjack variant. Rather than take the hit for their employees duff or lazy responce, management seemed to have tried to shift the blame to the player, coming up with every excuse they can think of to claim the hand was ineligible.

    This is a very rare hand, and often the way these promos work is that the prize is not expected to be won at all, and is secured through an insurance deal. This is like those "win a car by throwing 6 dice and getting all sixes. No way can a village fete afford to give away a car every time, and if the prize were won, it would wipe out any profit from many such fetes. It is simply a lure to get people to come, and they pay a relatively small insurance premium to cover the unlikely event that the prize is won. I expect Betfred used this to lure in many players to the Blackjack tables for the unlikely chance of winning a Jag. The short timescale would lower the chance of the prize being claimed.

    Unfortunately, they didn't draft the rules tightly enough, and this may have invalidated their prize insurance, meaning they would have to pay from their own pockets. Maybe they should have specified a minimum stake per hand, and rather than relying on game exclusions, should have listed specific Blackjack games that were eligible.

    Playtech clearly consider Pontoon to be a variant of Blackjack, along with their other bespoke variants like switch and surrender. With this in mind, the game should qualify as it was not listed as an excluded game. The fact that they kept adding games to the exclusions list is proof that the initial design was flawed, and they were making changes "on the fly" in order to lower the odds of the prize being won. Unfortunately, they got caught out because they didn't consider Pontoon for exclusion early enough.

    This is only £30K, yet Betfred seem determined not to pay it, however much bad publicity it generates. They had better come up with something much better during the PAB stage, and if they have tinkered with the website to hide the evidence, they WILL be found out when Max gets investigating.

    The simplest question of all would be "how can a winning hand be classed as void on a game that doesn't exist?". This will put them in the position of having to explain to Max why they went to the extraordinary lengths of simply "disappearing" Pontoon as a game from the casino and website, rather than explaining why they considered the hand void.
     
    3 people like this.
  20. Aug 23, 2012
  21. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    The BetFred rep has logged on and viewed the thread, so fingers crossed it will get resolved either way without the hassle.
     
  22. Aug 23, 2012
  23. Betfred

    Betfred Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    UK
    Hi all,

    This obviously needs clarification.

    The player in question did claim the Blackjack 7s top prize and Betfred did indeed reject his application for a number of reasons, many of which I can’t disclose on a public forum. I invite the player to PAB so that Casinomeister can view our reasoning and impartially mediate.

    Kind regards,
    Aaron
     
    7 people like this.
  24. Aug 23, 2012
  25. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Curioser and curioser.....

    I really hope that this isn't a case of a player BS'ing the members to gain support. I really hate that, and it's why I qualified my opinion with "on the face of it".
     
  26. Aug 23, 2012
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Despite this, did you in fact make the Pontoon game "disappear" as he claimed you have done in an effort to whitewash this incident?

    From his story, he was given a number of differing excuses, and from the wording of the promo, there does not seem to be any grounds for voiding the prize based on the argument that Pontoon itself doesn't count.

    I also can't see any way he could have manipulated the game to produce the winning hand, unless of course it has been faked by "photoshopping".

    Other players WILL want to be assured that the win was voided for valid reasons, rather than an attempt to wriggle out of paying a prize that was not expected to be won due to the rarety of the hand and short duration of the promo.

    If you suspect a bot was used, this isn't something you "can't disclose on a public forum" as being the reason for voiding the prize, although bot use, provided it is suported by evidence, would void all play under the general terms.

    If a player was prepared to stay awake 24/7, drink loads of coffee or take supplements, and play an "inhuman" amount in order to stand a better chance, this is NOT grounds for voiding the win. It IS possible to have a continuous session approaching 100 hours, my Nephew did it when he was a teenager playing computer games, person to person chat, and looking on Anime sites. I measured 88 hours continuous, fuelled by caffeine and the shortest loo breaks possible. He collapsed exhausted on the bed, and slept for a solid 24 hours. He said he would have carried on, but had started seeing things and couldn't see the keyboard, so was forced to quit. After the long sleep, he did another 33 hours continuous:eek: It only ended because it was time to go back home, but I had to spend 3 hours trying to surgically remove him from the PC;) It's ridiculous, unbelievable, yet entirely possible given enough single minded drive towards a goal.
     
    3 people like this.
  28. Aug 23, 2012
  29. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!

    Yeah yeah yeah... Your 'nephew'... Sure... What was he playing - Chavin' It Large or 'Track & Field Mouse'? :D :p

    Agreed though VWM. Unless the OP is a complete out and out fraud - there are serious questions to be answered here.
     
  30. Aug 23, 2012
  31. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    I think Betfred has made their position pretty clear, the OP needs to PAB. The first reply by Rainmaker provides the link for the PAB FAQ, and the OP needs to avail himself of this service.

    Don't post further Alexander. Be patient (seems like you might have that quality already); as others have pointed out, the PAB manager Maxd is on holiday right now. Be truthful and cooperative, and I wish you a happy resolution.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Aug 23, 2012
  33. mn001

    mn001 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Troll
    Location:
    Casino
    I'm a bit slow in my brain today but is this around 1:150k or so to hit the top prize? If so that is a damn good promo if $1 bets are allowed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  34. Aug 23, 2012
  35. raj

    raj Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bingo Product Manager and in-running trader.
    Location:
    LONDON
    It is indeed a very good promo....expectation is it would take around 80,000 or so hands to win and expected loss on 80,000 hands at $1 a hand is only about $1,500 if my maths is right

    Raj
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Aug 23, 2012
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This might be how Betfred slipped up with the rules. The OP is using multi-hand, so each hand is 5 of those 80,000 needed, and this would make this strategy well worth taking on. Since there is nothing to say otherwise, a $1 stake would be eligible.

    Excluding the multi-hand versions would have been a wise move by Betfred, along with excluding games such as Pontoon, and/or setting a minimum stake per hand needed to qualify.

    It seems very much a case of the player being better at maths than the promotions manager, with the terms changes on the fly coming as a result of this dawning on management as they saw data coming in showing just how many hands were being played by players as a whole. I don't expect the OP was the only player better at maths than the promotional manager, but was the first to hit the hand and claim, thus ending the promo.

    Since this "jackpot" has been won, but later declared void, what now happens? Players who hit this hand later would now become eligible, or the promotion needs to be extended to ensure that this prize is actually awarded to a player. The other option is that Betfred "pockets" this jackpot on the grounds that no-one won it, yet it has effectively been paid for by players playing and losing to the house money they would not have played had this prize not been offered.

    It bears some similarity to the situation where a player hits a progressive jackpot which is subsequently voided for breaches of the terms. It is expected that the jackpot is replaced to be won again by a player with a legitimate claim, rather than be pocketed by the operator - unless of course my theory about this being an insured prize not necessarily meant to be won is close to the truth.
     
  38. Aug 23, 2012
  39. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    @AlexanderK - Please PAB as soon as possible so we can get to the bottom of this.

    I would hold back making any accusations until we know exactly what happened.

    For the record, Pontoon is a version of Blackjack. According to Hoyle's Encyclopedia of Card Games, "Pontoon" is a nickname for Twenty-One. Twenty-One is synonymous with Blackjack. Hoyle, by the way, is the definitive rule book on card games.
     
    6 people like this.
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