Ask me anything (about slots)!

[benbfc]

Question Sir,

I dont normally play netent games but did at the weekend as part of a promotion on Betsafe/Betsson. As you will imagine - RTP was shocking, money lost.

Now long term you would hope that playing again on these games will increase RTP and claw back some winnings (i found on 32red that if you lost on IR / TS2 the next day you would get a good feature and repay a decent % of winnings - nearly always.) But on other providers should you revisit the same slot, the same provider. I.e on Warlords my RTP was 77% this weekend. Should it be back to there or another? Interested to hear opinions!...

 

[Jono777]

Question Sir,

I dont normally play netent games but did at the weekend as part of a promotion on Betsafe/Betsson. As you will imagine - RTP was shocking, money lost.

Now long term you would hope that playing again on these games will increase RTP and claw back some winnings (i found on 32red that if you lost on IR / TS2 the next day you would get a good feature and repay a decent % of winnings - nearly always.) But on other providers should you revisit the same slot, the same provider. I.e on Warlords my RTP was 77% this weekend. Should it be back to there or another? Interested to hear opinions!...

No probs

Mine is that regardless of previous 'visits' it makes no difference whether you won, lost or drew even.

Theoretically you could lose or win every time you played a specific slot.

It is however IMO all down to timing (which we have zero control over so IE: Luck!)

 

[trancemonkey]

No probs

Mine is that regardless of previous 'visits' it makes no difference whether you won, lost or drew even.

Theoretically you could lose or win every time you played a specific slot.

It is however IMO all down to timing (which we have zero control over so IE: Luck!)

What he said... Contrary to what some people believe there is no memory, compensation, or otherwise on real money games. The mathematical profiles behave randomly... That means that when you load the game up you have the same chance of everything happening. Be that good or bad

 

[chris87]

What he said... Contrary to what some people believe there is no memory, compensation, or otherwise on real money games. The mathematical profiles behave randomly... That means that when you load the game up you have the same chance of everything happening. Be that good or bad

I hear what you say, but in my years of slotting my experience is that after a decent win there is a period of time where you just can't hit anything anywhere, unless at least the value of the win has been recouped, particularly at the casino where you had the win. This has not just been said by myself, but many others too. I therefore avoid the casino where I had the win for sometime after because I know that my "luck" will just disappear, whereas, theoretically I could hit another big win with the very next spin, albeit unlikely.

Also, again in my experience, it appears that the amount of features or wins hit are more frequent on lower stakes than higher, as also many have said.

I'm not saying that anything is untoward, it's just my playing experience that has been consistent over nearly 10 years.

Chris

 

[Tirilej]

I hear what you say, but in my years of slotting my experience is that after a decent win there is a period of time where you just can't hit anything anywhere, unless at least the value of the win has been recouped, particularly at the casino where you had the win. This has not just been said by myself, but many others too. I therefore avoid the casino where I had the win for sometime after because I know that my "luck" will just disappear, whereas, theoretically I could hit another big win with the very next spin, albeit unlikely.

Also, again in my experience, it appears that the amount of features or wins hit are more frequent on lower stakes than higher, as also many have said.

I'm not saying that anything is untoward, it's just my playing experience that has been consistent over nearly 10 years.

Chris

And I have probably played just as long and as much as you have, and I would say that isn't true.
If you have a big win the game maybe goes back to normal bad play, but it doesn't always. I've had a lot of continuing winnings on the same games, same session or another, the same day or another day, and at the same casino.
What you remember though is the times it goes cold (back to normal).

When it comes to high vs low stakes I can't agree there either. I can't afford to play as many spins on higher stakes as on low, so if I don't win early I'm screwed.

The latest year though I've been playing higher bets than the last few years, and I've been winning a lot more. Strange isn't it?
I do believe though that for some reason we mostly hear from those that are seing patterns, or who lose a lot. The rest of us don't see it so we have no reason to talk about it either.

So in my opinion yes it is about good or bad luck.

 

[nikantw]

RNG questions. Apologies if you have already answer some of them.

Is it one RNG for every game provider, one RNG for each game, or one RNG for each game in each casino?
Is the RNG hardware, software, or both?
Player presses spin, a number is requested, RNG provides number (simplified version), right? Since there are millions of players playing in real and fun at the same time, does the RNG answer each and every one request individually (is that even possible?), or sends packages of numbers to each casino?
Finally, when the RNG is tested, do they only test if each result will come out with the same frequency (long term), or they also test that no patterns are formed (i.e. only prime numbers are drawn every Monday)?

 

[trancemonkey]

I hear what you say, but in my years of slotting my experience is that after a decent win there is a period of time where you just can't hit anything anywhere, unless at least the value of the win has been recouped, particularly at the casino where you had the win. This has not just been said by myself, but many others too. I therefore avoid the casino where I had the win for sometime after because I know that my "luck" will just disappear, whereas, theoretically I could hit another big win with the very next spin, albeit unlikely.

Also, again in my experience, it appears that the amount of features or wins hit are more frequent on lower stakes than higher, as also many have said.

I'm not saying that anything is untoward, it's just my playing experience that has been consistent over nearly 10 years.

Chris

Quick answer for this - google Gaussian distribution. This explains why, after a big win, you are unlikely to get another one, and as also mentioned, why the machines returns to normal...

Think of it this way... Get a 100 sided dice and roll it a lot. When you roll anything other than a 100, you lose a pound. When you roll 100 you win £95. If you roll a 100, you only have a 1 in 100 chance of rolling it again - the chances are the dice game will fall back to taking your pound off you each roll. When you hit a couple of 100's in close succession, you are happy because you've won £190 - but of course statistically it has to even out right? So at some point the reverse will happen and you'll go a long time without rolling a 100 - this could be 1000's of spins in the worst case scenario... Is it rigged? Is it controlled? Has the dice somehow decided it hates you and wants Dunover to win instead? No of course not...

That's statistics...

 

[trancemonkey]

RNG questions. Apologies if you have already answer some of them.

Is it one RNG for every game provider, one RNG for each game, or one RNG for each game in each casino?
Is the RNG hardware, software, or both?
Player presses spin, a number is requested, RNG provides number (simplified version), right? Since there are millions of players playing in real and fun at the same time, does the RNG answer each and every one request individually (is that even possible?), or sends packages of numbers to each casino?
Finally, when the RNG is tested, do they only test if each result will come out with the same frequency (long term), or they also test that no patterns are formed (i.e. only prime numbers are drawn every Monday)?

Hey Nikantw - I don't mind answering again, it's a long thread!

Is it one RNG for every game provider, one RNG for each game, or one RNG for each game in each casino?
The RNG is normally game specific, but sits on the server of the game provider (or the integration partner)

Is the RNG hardware, software, or both?
Nearly always software and a mersenne twister

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Player presses spin, a number is requested, RNG provides number (simplified version), right? Since there are millions of players playing in real and fun at the same time, does the RNG answer each and every one request individually (is that even possible?), or sends packages of numbers to each casino?
The RNG answers each spin request individually - it has to, by law, as the information for that spin request and result must be logged for legal reasons.

Finally, when the RNG is tested, do they only test if each result will come out with the same frequency (long term), or they also test that no patterns are formed (i.e. only prime numbers are drawn every Monday)?
You're correct - there are multiple different types of tests that are done in order to verify the fairness of the RNG. The UKGC technical standards state (Section 3.2):

Please find below level and scope of testing required by the Commission.
RNG testing:
1. Review of RNG documentation to understand the implementation of RNG in
the gaming system.
2. Research about RNG algorithm/hardware to ensure there is no publicly
known weakness or vulnerabilities associated with the RNG under
evaluation.
3. Review of source code to verify the implementation of RNG is in accordance
with the RNG documentation.
4. Statistical testing of raw output of RNG and scaled/shuffled decks data.
5. Any issues or non-compliance are reported to the supplier. Once resolved,
these issues are re-evaluated to confirm the non-compliance has been
addressed adequately.


GLI, who are one of the test houses (and the most reputable) state on this page

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:



RNG for testing should be submitted with the following:
- Game parameters and rules including the number of selections within one game or draw, range and if the numbers are drawn with or without replacement, for example Keno, 20 numbers drawn from 1 through 80 without replacement
- Application used to generate the random data as close to the final production application as possible with regard to the RNG implementation. Therefore, it should use the identical function(s), calls, variables, scaling methodology, etc. as the production software
- An explanation of any differences between how the data is drawn for the test application and the production application
- RNG Final Outcome Collection Tool - A data collection tool that allows collection of data in a manner similar to how the game data that is produced in the final release version of the production application;
- Raw Output Collection Tool - If required by the scope of work, a binary data collection tool to allow collection of output from the RNG prior to scaling, shuffling, etc.
- Key files and their respective checksums (SHA1, MD5, or SHA256)
- Hardware requirements and specifications
- Testing expectations
- Intended RNG report recipients
- Source Code Description and Documentation
- Primary contact(s) and contact information for all questions
- It is also recommended to submit a small data sample ahead of the primary submission to verify the format of the data

Hope that helps

 

[Naith85]

Hey Nikantw - I don't mind answering again, it's a long thread!

Since the RNG hardware/software is on topic:

When I press the spin button in a game, does the game request 1 random number for each reel (i.e, if the game has 5 reels, 5 random numbers are sent back to the client from the server) or does the game request 1 random number from the server, which, with some math algorithm, decided what each reel should display? I assume 5 random numbers (in a game with 5 reels) are received from the server since it's gotta be easier that way to decide where on the reel strip to stop and what to display on each reel.

 

[trancemonkey]

Since the RNG hardware/software is on topic:

When I press the spin button in a game, does the game request 1 random number for each reel (i.e, if the game has 5 reels, 5 random numbers are sent back to the client from the server) or does the game request 1 random number from the server, which, with some math algorithm, decided what each reel should display? I assume 5 random numbers (in a game with 5 reels) are received from the server since it's gotta be easier that way to decide where on the reel strip to stop and what to display on each reel.

Either works - you can ask for a large number and then derive the reel stops from that, or you can ask for x number of reel stops...
Some jurisdictions used to (not sure if it's the case any more) only allow you to ask for one number from the RNG... - but obviously a 64-bit number can be very large

 

[chris87]

Quick answer for this - google Gaussian distribution. This explains why, after a big win, you are unlikely to get another one, and as also mentioned, why the machines returns to normal...

Think of it this way... Get a 100 sided dice and roll it a lot. When you roll anything other than a 100, you lose a pound. When you roll 100 you win £95. If you roll a 100, you only have a 1 in 100 chance of rolling it again - the chances are the dice game will fall back to taking your pound off you each roll. When you hit a couple of 100's in close succession, you are happy because you've won £190 - but of course statistically it has to even out right? So at some point the reverse will happen and you'll go a long time without rolling a 100 - this could be 1000's of spins in the worst case scenario... Is it rigged? Is it controlled? Has the dice somehow decided it hates you and wants Dunover to win instead? No of course not...

That's statistics...

Good explanation, thanks. Interesting also that Tiriej hasn't found this pattern, but many have. I get it that a lot is about perception and luck and perhaps this explains why some casinos can be lucky for you and some not, it's just about how the RNG hits when you play.

Chris

 

[DavidShush]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before. Apologies in advance and a request to send me to the relevant page.

Question, why do slots show 2 bonus symbols on games where you need 3 to get the feature/bonus? I understand they're supposed to be random, but why do they consistently show multiple "heart stoppers" like that?

Would it be more accurate to say there are multiple dice being thrown and they all need to land on 100 to get a feature? If so it seems a bit too frequent to be random. More like psychological manipulation into fooling the gambler that a bonus is close to hitting?

 

[interlog]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before. Apologies in advance and a request to send me to the relevant page.

Question, why do slots show 2 bonus symbols on games where you need 3 to get the feature/bonus? I understand they're supposed to be random, but why do they consistently show multiple "heart stoppers" like that?

Would it be more accurate to say there are multiple dice being thrown and they all need to land on 100 to get a feature? If so it seems a bit too frequent to be random. More like psychological manipulation into fooling the gambler that a bonus is close to hitting?

You're probably talking about Microgaming slots here that are notorious for the two scatter tease.

It is, I believe, because scatters are not evenly distributed on the reels. If you look at Mystic Dreams for example, there are loads of scatters on reels 1 and 2, but much less on the remaining reels hence that it teases quite a lot.

 

[trancemonkey]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before. Apologies in advance and a request to send me to the relevant page.

Question, why do slots show 2 bonus symbols on games where you need 3 to get the feature/bonus? I understand they're supposed to be random, but why do they consistently show multiple "heart stoppers" like that?

Would it be more accurate to say there are multiple dice being thrown and they all need to land on 100 to get a feature? If so it seems a bit too frequent to be random. More like psychological manipulation into fooling the gambler that a bonus is close to hitting?

Well of course some of it is psychological design, and we want to make things exciting for the player - it's to do with the distribution of the symbols on the reels as interlog says...

The important thing when designing the maths for a game is to try and get the proportion of teasing / tension spins / heartstoppers / whatever-you-call-them right. If you have 5 scatters and reel 1, 5 on reel 2 and only 1 on reels 3, 4 and 5, then you will get a lot of teasing. However, tease too much and players get annoyed. Tease too little and there is not enough excitement!

 

[Dinahnana]

Well of course some of it is psychological design, and we want to make things exciting for the player - it's to do with the distribution of the symbols on the reels as interlog says...

The important thing when designing the maths for a game is to try and get the proportion of teasing / tension spins / heartstoppers / whatever-you-call-them right. If you have 5 scatters and reel 1, 5 on reel 2 and only 1 on reels 3, 4 and 5, then you will get a lot of teasing. However, tease too much and players get annoyed. Tease too little and there is not enough excitement!

You mean many many teases on Jungle Spirit and very few on Butterfly Staxx I kinda find both situations annoying. Guess you can't please all the players!

 

[trancemonkey]

You mean many many teases on Jungle Spirit and very few on Butterfly Staxx I kinda find both situations annoying. Guess you can't please all the players!

Exactly... What one person finds annoying another finds exciting... There's no perfect rule.. it also depends on your hit frequency for the feature... If your feature it every 500 games, you don't want to tease every 10 games! I try and work on a 5 to 1 ratio most of the time

 

[trancemonkey]

A question for the group...

For all those of you that think we rig / compensate or otherwise control games...

All of the situations that have been described in order to "prove" the rigged side of slots have been negative... Something that has really pissed you off as a player.

So my question is... If we were going to rig the games, don't you think we'd rig them in a positive way and not a negative way. Why do you think we would pruposely make the games take the piss? Hardly likely to encourage repeat customers...

Interested to hear the answers...

T.M

 

[Steviedoo]

Exactly... What one person finds annoying another finds exciting... There's no perfect rule.. it also depends on your hit frequency for the feature... If your feature it every 500 games, you don't want to tease every 10 games! I try and work on a 5 to 1 ratio most of the time

So when you get disconnected from a game ...and you've had no bonus feature.....when you get connected again....does that mean the hit frequency stat starts over...ie...I did 200 spins on said slot....and it's hit frequency is known to be around the 300th spin...I get disconnected from the game...videoslots is notorious for this...does this mean I start at spin 1 in terms of hit bonus frequency. And will have to wait another 300 spins give or take to hit the bonus.

 

[Steviedoo]

For all those of you that think we rig / compensate or otherwise control games...

All of the situations that have been described in order to "prove" the rigged side of slots have been negative... Something that has really pissed you off as a player.

So my question is... If we were going to rig the games, don't you think we'd rig them in a positive way and not a negative way. Why do you think we would pruposely make the games take the piss? Hardly likely to encourage repeat customers...

Interested to hear the answers...

T.M

Well...you rig them enough to keep the client there....just enough to keep everyone on the fence....and keep us coming back. LOL.


I don't think their rigged. ...just plain dumb luck when you win.

And we should start a new section on the forum...moan and groan....rigged section....there are so many posts on how everyone is losing....and they are rigged...it's getting to be too much.

 

[trancemonkey]

So when you get disconnected from a game ...and you've had no bonus feature.....when you get connected again....does that mean the hit frequency stat starts over...ie...I did 200 spins on said slot....and it's hit frequency is known to be around the 300th spin...I get disconnected from the game...videoslots is notorious for this...does this mean I start at spin 1 in terms of hit bonus frequency. And will have to wait another 300 spins give or take to hit the bonus.

No of course not... All it means is on every spin you have a 1 in 300 chance of getting a feature... Doesn't matter if you have just had one or not had one for 600 spins.

 

[Dinahnana]

For all those of you that think we rig / compensate or otherwise control games...

All of the situations that have been described in order to "prove" the rigged side of slots have been negative... Something that has really pissed you off as a player.

So my question is... If we were going to rig the games, don't you think we'd rig them in a positive way and not a negative way. Why do you think we would pruposely make the games take the piss? Hardly likely to encourage repeat customers...

Interested to hear the answers...

T.M

I am not gonna say slots are rigged but definitely predictable for example take Butterfly Staxx it is a medium to low variance game that hits the feature once every 250-300 spins. If you get a Staxx re-spin with only one reel with butterflies on the reel but have even a small win with the other symbols you won't get another butterfly in the re-spin. This slot has only been out a short while and even I can predict the outcome of the re-spins at this point.

Sit down and have a conversation with Dunover about Jungle Dis-Spirit and hear his take on why he feels that slot is compensated and I gotta say his videos do hold a very persuasive argument to support his theory.

I do think that software developers have listened to casinos and created slots which give the player a smaller chance of winning even in the short term. A vast majority of the Netent releases have a max win of 400x and as we all know the max win is very hard to get on any slot so getting a big win on those is very difficult. 50x win on the bonus and your lucky.

So my overall answer is that software developers may not have rigged slots in the legal sense but they definitely programmed them to be tighter than older releases.

 

[interlog]

I think some changes to the variance have happened. Not sure whether that was because of player demand or off the back of what casinos requested.

What doesn't help the industry is that we here on the forum had a slot manufacturer posting fake screen shots of wins. If they are prepared to do just that, what else are they capable of doing?

 

[trancemonkey]

I think some changes to the variance have happened. Not sure whether that was because of player demand or off the back of what casinos requested.

What doesn't help the industry is that we here on the forum had a slot manufacturer posting fake screen shots of wins. If they are prepared to do just that, what else are they capable of doing?

Was that BTG? That's just stupid. Telling players what a maximum win could be (if it's achievable) is fine... But outright lying does the industry no good. And people already distrust us!

 

[interlog]

Was that BTG? That's just stupid. Telling players what a maximum win could be (if it's achievable) is fine... But outright lying does the industry no good. And people already distrust us!

It was, and yet it makes you distrust the industry.

 

[Monnii]

I think some changes to the variance have happened. Not sure whether that was because of player demand or off the back of what casinos requested.

What doesn't help the industry is that we here on the forum had a slot manufacturer posting fake screen shots of wins. If they are prepared to do just that, what else are they capable of doing?

Im sure it's of bonanza right? Or am i completely mistaken? Are the screenshots still found here somewhere and in case they are, where might they be located?

 

[Sonict]

It was not from Bonanza. It was hits from the game "Dragon Born".

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/dragon-born-117649-ways-at-unibet.71146/ <-- It was in this thread. A shill from BTG thought it would be smart to post fake pics (BTG even had a competition for best hits on the slot) and he got caught and fired from BTG IIRC.

 

[trancemonkey]

It was not from Bonanza. It was hits from the game "Dragon Born".

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/dragon-born-117649-ways-at-unibet.71146/ <-- It was in this thread. A shill from BTG thought it would be smart to post fake pics (BTG even had a competition for best hits on the slot) and he got caught and fired from BTG IIRC.

So they tell us.. but yeah that's just stupid and does nothing to help the cause.

 

[TheAddict]

So they tell us.. but yeah that's just stupid and does nothing to help the cause.

Yeah couldn't help but think of the worst when i saw the result.. really fired? Or put on extra training and promoted for using ones own initiative in trying to further the success of the company ..thats no accusation, just I'm by far not the most optimistic person you will ever meet.

 

[nikantw]

No it doesn't have to be possible, legally, under the current ukgc standards. It's kind of the same way a full screen of bars or bells or diamonds isn't possible on Twin Spin... But at least you can see the reel spin on that game.

Cascading games don't have a reel spin so therefore there is nothing to show. BTG will have multiple different reel sets in the game I'm sure... Some may have diamonds attached on one reel, and some a different reel. But there may be none with stacks on all 5 reels.

I'm not sure what I think about the fairness or not of this... I could see an argument that it wasn't fair, but equally the game isn't telling you it's possible... You are assuming it is...

Just wanted to play some Twin Spin before I answer. Now that I have……

A full screen of bars or bells or diamonds isn't possible on Twin Spin because you will never see 3 of them stacked on reels 1 or 2. The game isn’t telling you it is possible. If you could see 3 diamonds stacked on reels 1 and 2 (as you can see them on 3, 4, 5), the game would be telling you a full screen of diamonds is possible (and you would feel a bit insulted if someone told you that you are “assuming” it is). Is there a way UKGC would allow 3 stacked diamonds to appear on all reels of Twin Spin without a full screen of diamonds being possible? Even if there is a way, I don’t think any game provider would risk making such a horrible decision.

I can understand that after the 1st reaction in Bonanza, anything can happen, so if some symbols end up stacked after some reactions it doesn’t mean anything. That is fair. But what drops on each reel before any reaction, that is the game telling you what is possible. There is no paragraph in UKGC like this: “If a game has reactions none of the above rules apply”.

I think we kind of agree. You are just not familiar with Bonanza, that strange new beast. Don’t be afraid of the potential, being possible doesn’t mean it will happen even in 100 years. Besides, you will never see more than 3 diamonds on any reel (and some on the carts).

 

[Monnii]

Just wanted to play some Twin Spin before I answer. Now that I have……

A full screen of bars or bells or diamonds isn't possible on Twin Spin because you will never see 3 of them stacked on reels 1 or 2. The game isn’t telling you it is possible. If you could see 3 diamonds stacked on reels 1 and 2 (as you can see them on 3, 4, 5), the game would be telling you a full screen of diamonds is possible (and you would feel a bit insulted if someone told you that you are “assuming” it is). Is there a way UKGC would allow 3 stacked diamonds to appear on all reels of Twin Spin without a full screen of diamonds being possible? Even if there is a way, I don’t think any game provider would risk making such a horrible decision.

I can understand that after the 1st reaction in Bonanza, anything can happen, so if some symbols end up stacked after some reactions it doesn’t mean anything. That is fair. But what drops on each reel before any reaction, that is the game telling you what is possible. There is no paragraph in UKGC like this: “If a game has reactions none of the above rules apply”.

I think we kind of agree. You are just not familiar with Bonanza, that strange new beast. Don’t be afraid of the potential, being possible doesn’t mean it will happen even in 100 years. Besides, you will never see more than 3 diamonds on any reel (and some on the carts).

Atleast four diamonds can be seen on reel four. Without any drops, IIRC there can be 5 on 6th reel but dont remember if the last one dropped in or not.
So would be nice to know if the game allows for you to get say
Reel 1: 3 (with drops possible)
Reel 2 (one on cart as the drops wouldnt happen otherwise)
Reel 3: 4 (3+1 on cart)
Reel 4: 4 (3+1 on cart)
Reel 5: 5 (4 with drops +1 on cart)
So that would make it
And then reel 6: 4 (or 5)
So is it then possible 1440 ways(unless i counted it wrong as im on phone), and if a diamond would then drop on 2nd reel the diamonds would add up to 2880 ways.
So why cant they just tell us that it's it aint possible? Because that would be 144000x basegame win, and in freespins it could- atleast as we've seen multiplier of 39, then it would be 5,6million times stake. So why cant BTG just say that it's not possible?

 

[richmcd]

I've got a question about "offer" bonuses (e.g., the Rumplestiltskin bonus in Wish Upon A Jackpot or the Green Bonus in Three Musketeers, where you accept or reject offers until finally you don't have a choice).

Since there's no mention of "correct strategy" in the rules, presumably the RTP isn't affected by which offer you pick. But in that case, how are the offers generated? (If they were entirely independent and random, there presumably WOULD be a correct strategy of when to accept and when to reject.)

I generally avoid games that have this kind of feature, because I don't enjoy them. But perhaps if I understood better what was going on under the hood, I'd enjoy them more.

 

[interlog]

Atleast four diamonds can be seen on reel four. Without any drops, IIRC there can be 5 on 6th reel but dont remember if the last one dropped in or not.
So would be nice to know if the game allows for you to get say
Reel 1: 3 (with drops possible)
Reel 2 (one on cart as the drops wouldnt happen otherwise)
Reel 3: 4 (3+1 on cart)
Reel 4: 4 (3+1 on cart)
Reel 5: 5 (4 with drops +1 on cart)
So that would make it
And then reel 6: 4 (or 5)
So is it then possible 1440 ways(unless i counted it wrong as im on phone), and if a diamond would then drop on 2nd reel the diamonds would add up to 2880 ways.
So why cant they just tell us that it's it aint possible? Because that would be 144000x basegame win, and in freespins it could- atleast as we've seen multiplier of 39, then it would be 5,6million times stake. So why cant BTG just say that it's not possible?

Because aren't there different reel sets in the bonus? Well the top moving line is different for a start because it has carts rather than wilds unless the card substitutes the wild and the rest of the reels are the same?

Maybe the BTG rep can answer this one. I will ask the question in the Bonanza topic because he may not read this one.

 

[trancemonkey]

Because aren't there different reel sets in the bonus? Well the top moving line is different for a start because it has carts rather than wilds unless the card substitutes the wild and the rest of the reels are the same?

Maybe the BTG rep can answer this one. I will ask the question in the Bonanza topic because he may not read this one.

There are rules and regulations about reel spins in that we can't show (in some jurisdictions) a reel spin that is not indicative of what can be won... For example we couldn't show a stack of top symbols spin through during a reel spin if that stack of top symbols did not have a chance of landing in view, however small that is. However on Bonanza there is no reel spin so that rule doesn't apply. The fact you have seen the top symbols on reels on different "spins" does NOT mean that is it capable of giving them to you in the same spin. While you could argue that this is misleading it is perfectly legal to use different reel bands on different spins as long as the chance of using each reel band is constant.

 

[trancemonkey]

I've got a question about "offer" bonuses (e.g., the Rumplestiltskin bonus in Wish Upon A Jackpot or the Green Bonus in Three Musketeers, where you accept or reject offers until finally you don't have a choice).

Since there's no mention of "correct strategy" in the rules, presumably the RTP isn't affected by which offer you pick. But in that case, how are the offers generated? (If they were entirely independent and random, there presumably WOULD be a correct strategy of when to accept and when to reject.)

I generally avoid games that have this kind of feature, because I don't enjoy them. But perhaps if I understood better what was going on under the hood, I'd enjoy them more.

So my understanding of these Deal or No Deal type bonuses is that there is a strategy. As far as I know ( happy to be proved wrong ) you should always collect above the average or refuse all the offers - of course you need to know the average though.

Wherever there is a player choice that can affect an outcome there has to be a strategy unless all the options pay the same amount on average which can't be the case in the games you mention.

 

[slotter999]

So my understanding of these Deal or No Deal type bonuses is that there is a strategy. As far as I know ( happy to be proved wrong ) you should always collect above the average or refuse all the offers - of course you need to know the average though.

Wherever there is a player choice that can affect an outcome there has to be a strategy unless all the options pay the same amount on average which can't be the case in the games you mention.

I think I've seen similar implementations of this type of feature where the number of offers you receive can also vary so again it's forcing you to make a decision with imperfect information. My guess is the RTP is based on the player making the maximum pick each time and anything else fobbed off as 'sub optimal' play.

 

[trancemonkey]

I think I've seen similar implementations of this type of feature where the number of offers you receive can also vary so again it's forcing you to make a decision with imperfect information. My guess is the RTP is based on the player making the maximum pick each time and anything else fobbed off as 'sub optimal' play.

Yeah but UKGC rules are clear that where strategy affects the RTP then the best strategy must be made clear. They don't need to do this for blackjack (for example) as the best strategy is widely available...

 

[slotter999]

Yeah but UKGC rules are clear that where strategy affects the RTP then the best strategy must be made clear. They don't need to do this for blackjack (for example) as the best strategy is widely available...

So if this was reported to the UKGC in theory they would be required to act?

I must confess I haven't read the rules so maybe there is a section dedicated to it. I'll check.

I know ygdrassil do this on some of their games where there is strategy such as nirvana or beauty and the beast.

 

[trancemonkey]

So if this was reported to the UKGC in theory they would be required to act?

I must confess I haven't read the rules so maybe there is a section dedicated to it. I'll check.

I know ygdrassil do this on some of their games where there is strategy such as nirvana or beauty and the beast.

Well as with all of these things an email to the games provider should be the first action taken if there is nothing in the help pages...

If they don't give you a reasonable answer then go to the GC

 

[brianmon]

For Trancemonkey

When you, and a few other developers write games which detect a touchscreen. Can you NOT, completely, disable mouse control !!

I have a desktop and a laptop, both of which are touchscreen, and although a touchscreen is handy for some things, they are not comfortable to use for continually pressing a spin button.
No doubt the assumption is made that if you have a touchscreen, you're playing on a mobile, tablet or tablet-like laptop. But that's not always the case and it seems that more and more new 'standard' laptops and desktops are now including touchscreens.

I'm mentioning it to you because I noticed your game 'Fabric 4' had been added at LeoVegas and was going to give it a try. But I didn't end up playing it much because it would only respond to the touchscreen and not mouse clicks. Where as most other developers allow for mouse clicks AND touchscreen, even when playing mobile versions of their games on a desktop

 

[trancemonkey]

When you, and a few other developers write games which detect a touchscreen. Can you NOT, completely, disable mouse control !!

I have a desktop and a laptop, both of which are touchscreen, and although a touchscreen is handy for some things, they are not comfortable to use for continually pressing a spin button.
No doubt the assumption is made that if you have a touchscreen, you're playing on a mobile, tablet or tablet-like laptop. But that's not always the case and it seems that more and more new 'standard' laptops and desktops are now including touchscreens.

I'm mentioning it to you because I noticed your game 'Fabric 4' had been added at LeoVegas and was going to give it a try. But I didn't end up playing it much because it would only respond to the touchscreen and not mouse clicks. Where as most other developers allow for mouse clicks AND touchscreen, even when playing mobile versions of their games on a desktop

Interesting... I didn't know they had done that when developing it. I agree that's a silly way of doing it. I will make sure to pass that info on to the team here.

 

[danchop]

If online casinos were able to be operated in a completely lawless environment,which of the two..the casino or the game provider would be at best advantage to manipulate slots?Could one do it on thier own,or would both have to do this with each others knowledge?

 

[trancemonkey]

A Comment on Compensated Slots

Thanks to certain people on this forum I will no longer partake in discussions about slots being compensated. This cyclic conversation has gone round in circles and become an obsession for some people, and it is impossible to discuss with people that don't want to listen.

Every argument put forward for compensation on this forum is based on nothing more than gut feeling... Which I agree it's strong. However if we were going to compensate the games (I started in this industry doing compensated fruit machines so I know all about compensation), all the terrible experiences you have on slots are the exact things we would want to avoid when compensating...

The very idea of compensation would require collusion across many different providers, casinos, etc.. and apart from being extremely unlikely in that respect, is also illegal and would therefore also require collusion from the test houses (that look at the game code) and all the commission's around the world.

The entire supply chain would have to be in on it. And yet no one - not one single person has left anywhere and blown the whistle.

If anyone wants to have a sensible discussion on the subject then that's fine but otherwise this conspiracy theory is just going to go round and round in circles. What's the point in discussing with someone who simply doesn't want to listen

 

[trancemonkey]

If online casinos were able to be operated in a completely lawless environment,which of the two..the casino or the game provider would be at best advantage to manipulate slots?Could one do it on thier own,or would both have to do this with each others knowledge?

The casino would require the game provider to be in on it... Hence casinos that make their own content would be best placed to do this. For example if a playtech casino only had playtech content, then of course that overall offering could be manipulated in many different ways to disadvantage the player...

 

[Borgie]

Thanks to certain people on this forum I will no longer partake in discussions about slots being compensated. This cyclic conversation has gone round in circles and become an obsession for some people, and it is impossible to discuss with people that don't want to listen.

Every argument put forward for compensation on this forum is based on nothing more than gut feeling... Which I agree it's strong. However if we were going to compensate the games (I started in this industry doing compensated fruit machines so I know all about compensation), all the terrible experiences you have on slots are the exact things we would want to avoid when compensating...

The very idea of compensation would require collusion across many different providers, casinos, etc.. and apart from being extremely unlikely in that respect, is also illegal and would therefore also require collusion from the test houses (that look at the game code) and all the commission's around the world.

The entire supply chain would have to be in on it. And yet no one - not one single person has left anywhere and blown the whistle.

If anyone wants to have a sensible discussion on the subject then that's fine but otherwise this conspiracy theory is just going to go round and round in circles. What's the point in discussing with someone who simply doesn't want to listen

I think you've been beyond patient with certain individuals who to be honest if they really believe what they are saying are totally nuts to play at casinos - why would you when you are convinced they have colluded on a massive scale to defraud and rob you !

I'm sorry that people are so rude to you when all you have done is try to enlighten us and answer our millions of questions with the knowledge you gained in the industry
I don't get folk I really don't !

I agree don't discuss it waste of precious breath.

Thanks for sharing all that you do

 

[trancemonkey]

I think you've been beyond patient with certain individuals who to be honest if they really believe what they are saying are totally nuts to play at casinos - why would you when you are convinced they have colluded on a massive scale to defraud and rob you !

I'm sorry that people are so rude to you when all you have done is try to enlighten us and answer our millions of questions with the knowledge you gained in the industry
I don't get folk I really don't !

I agree don't discuss it waste of precious breath.

Thanks for sharing all they you do

Thank you... I admit I can get impatient with some people who just simply want to vent frustration (which is perfectly fine) but refuse to listen to the other side of the argument. However I really have said all I can say on the matter now... If these people wish to take my silence as proof they are right and I am wrong, so be it...

Maybe I'll just be more selective in the discussions I involve myself in on here when the word rigged or compensated comes up..

We'll see

 

[4048]

Thank you... I admit I can get impatient with some people who just simply want to vent frustration (which is perfectly fine) but refuse to listen to the other side of the argument. However I really have said all I can say on the matter now... If these people wish to take my silence as proof they are right and I am wrong, so be it...

Maybe I'll just be more selective in the discussions I involve myself in on here when the word rigged or compensated comes up..

We'll see

Spend 10 min in a casino back office looking at biggest winners and losers and anyone would be convinced there is in fact no such thing as compensation.

But back on topic!

I just tried your old Fabric 4, and it has a function I've also seen in Blueprints Ted that I'm not a big fan of - namely randomly triggered extra scatter symbols in base game. Does this math-wise perform the same as increasing the chance of hitting 3 scatters would have done?

Great thread

 

[trancemonkey]

Spend 10 min in a casino back office looking at biggest winners and losers and anyone would be convinced there is in fact no such thing as compensation.

But back on topic!

I just tried your old Fabric 4, and it has a function I've also seen in Blueprints Ted that I'm not a big fan of - namely randomly triggered extra scatter symbols in base game. Does this math-wise perform the same as increasing the chance of hitting 3 scatters would have done?

Great thread

Hey 4048 - thanks for the input and I agree... The problem is people don't want to believe people in the industry because we are "the bad guys" anyway...

With regards to fabric 4, yes the base game modifier to do with the scatters is part of the overall feature frequency mechanic... When you get it you have a good chance of the rocket hitting the third reel and giving you the feature. The overall feature frequency I think is about 1 in 150 if I recall correctly...

 

[gambyx7]

I 'll post question about normal/quickspin, I guess I know the answer, but stilll, please don't mind.

Started today my favourite Preety Kitty. Starting balance 280. Normal spins. In 1340 spins I had 5 bonuses (13x, 18x, 23x, 6x, 11x) and one significant base game hit (40x). Everything else was pure misery. At 20 (yes, 260 gone with the wind) balance I decided to go to the very end, but with quickspin mode. 10 spins later I got bonus (dear Microgaming, after waiting for more than 500 spins). Bonus is always in normal spin mode and after 5 spins I got 810x spin (full screen persian).

Now, would that bonus/win came if I had continued with normal spin?

 

[SlotGrinder]

This game I have lost literally thousands at £4 spins . I have several of the characters upgraded (occasionally happens there is lightning and one of the characters gets upgraded by one) but whenever I get the bonus I always get the sh*tty electrocutee at level 2 . Am I playing at enhanced rtp right now ? Or is rtp the same and the "enhanced" characters are just balanced out by me getting the bonus less often and then getting the only bad character more frequently ?

What do you think of these games where a lot of the rtp can be left in the game without ever being realised , especially by casual players who might collect one or 2 tokens /upgrades and then never come back ? seems like it preys on two things 1) ignorance of the game and it's features so a lot of people might get some of the way to a feature and never actually get it and 2) player retention because if you want a decent rtp you have no choice but to play the game for as long as it takes to get the accumulated feature and of course 3) You might run out of money before you get there which must be against some gambling regulation rules since being "halfway" to a bonus that you need to collect tokens for is an enticement for you to deposit more and continue playing beyond your means

There's lots of games like this . Tower Quest . Double Dragons . Three Musketeers (Red Tiger gaming) . Vikings Go Beserk etc etc

 

[interlog]

This game I have lost literally thousands at £4 spins . I have several of the characters upgraded (occasionally happens there is lightning and one of the characters gets upgraded by one) but whenever I get the bonus I always get the sh*tty electrocutee at level 2 . Am I playing at enhanced rtp right now ? Or is rtp the same and the "enhanced" characters are just balanced out by me getting the bonus less often and then getting the only bad character more frequently ?

What do you think of these games where a lot of the rtp can be left in the game without ever being realised , especially by casual players who might collect one or 2 tokens /upgrades and then never come back ? seems like it preys on two things 1) ignorance of the game and it's features so a lot of people might get some of the way to a feature and never actually get it and 2) player retention because if you want a decent rtp you have no choice but to play the game for as long as it takes to get the accumulated feature and of course 3) You might run out of money before you get there which must be against some gambling regulation rules since being "halfway" to a bonus that you need to collect tokens for is an enticement for you to deposit more and continue playing beyond your means

There's lots of games like this . Tower Quest . Double Dragons . Three Musketeers (Red Tiger gaming) . Vikings Go Beserk etc etc

With regards the bolded games, it at times is quicker to trigger the features you have to collect than it does triggering bonuses on certain games (Bonanza, Gonzo's Quest springs to mind), so I would treat them like high variance games.