Ask me anything (about slots)!

[Harry_BKK]

I know this is getting repetitive now, and you don't believe me, but this just doesn't happen.

I wish you could play 1 million sessions. Start each session with a £100 balance. Record EVERY time you get a 2-scatter trigger what your balance is on.
If you could do that, and it shows that a 2-scatter trigger happens statistically more often in the last ten games than at ANY OTHER time, then i might start believing you that i put things in to my games not even i'm aware of... (and that companies like WMS would do it, and risk losing the Nevada licence, which would ruin SG Games multi-billion dollar business instantly).

Sorry if that appears condescending, but it's a fact that we don't do it. No amount of telling me we do will change the fact we don't.

And (Harry will hate me for this) when your balance is running low, you are psychologically more aware of the outcomes of the games because you want that balance saver. I can guarantee you that no real money game does it.

I never said that lol, just stating my observations over a lengthy period. In fact I believe you very much so, after all what would be the gain of someone in the industry being open and providing a thread to spout BS, just wouldn't make sense. So yes eternally grateful for all the info and reassurances provided thus far.

I do also have to say that the part I've highlighted blue makes a LOT of sense

OK, I give you two options:

Do 20 or 200 or 2000 sessions on DOA, it will always be the sames.

- Play your balance down to the last $1 at a higher than minimum bet, change your bet to $0.09 and watch how quickly you will have minimum 1x 4OAK picture symbols or 5OAK K's and 1-2x 2-scatter teasers
- If you want to risk more, take a balance of $150-200 and play it at $1.80, never change the bet size, then watch out for the amount of 2-scatter teasers when the balance is below $20.

I count in most sessions all 2-scatter teasers and note down the spin, hence, i am fully aware of the outcomes at any point of my play, not just when the balance is low.

Again, I wouldn't think much of it if it wouldn't be the same EVERY time, or lets say 99.99% of the sessions.

 

[trancemonkey]

OK, I give you two options:

Do 20 or 200 or 2000 sessions on DOA, it will always be the sames.

- Play your balance down to the last $1 at a higher than minimum bet, change your bet to $0.09 and watch how quickly you will have minimum 1x 4OAK picture symbols or 5OAK K's and 1-2x 2-scatter teasers
- If you want to risk more, take a balance of $150-200 and play it at $1.80, never change the bet size, then watch out for the amount of 2-scatter teasers when the balance is below $20.

I count in most sessions all 2-scatter teasers and note down the spin, hence, i am fully aware of the outcomes at any point of my play, not just when the balance is low.

Again, I wouldn't think much of it if it wouldn't be the same EVERY time, or lets say 99.99% of the sessions.

Again I guarantee NetEnt don't do anything dodgy like this. Sorry mate but it's not worth their licence....

We will have to agree to disagree at this point

 

[nikantw]

You know that we are talking about an industry who in the past decades has laundered more illegal money than all other forms of money laundering put together.


That is simply not true (for online). The only money laundering that is being done at gambling is at land based casinos and bookers. Not online. If you want to “clean money” you put it at a super clean and closely monitored by local government’s tax department businesses, that is not offshore online casinos. Don’t get me wrong, any kind of fraud you can think of does happen and it needs to be properly safeguarded, monitored and regulated. But the term “money laundering” when used for online gambling means mostly “we want to get more taxes on that”.



I said in my post that it can't be random to have a 2-scatter teaser in the last few spins before a bust-out.[/B]

You answered that you would need to see some data. Well, i recorded since then my last 44 bust-outs and below you can see the result.

Blue line - last 2-scatter teaser
Orange line - the 2nd last 2-scatter teaser

I also inserted a trend line on the last teaser which clearly shows that it tends to happen in the last few spins. Give this graph to a mathematician without telling him what the graphs stand for and he will tell you that clearly the last event (blue line) is designed to happen in the last 10 units. The data is from 7 slots from 4 suppliers, hence, no difference between providers.

View attachment 76281

I will say your own data prove your point. I say mail these to all reputable regulators to see what they say.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Again I guarantee NetEnt don't do anything dodgy like this. Sorry mate but it's not worth their licence....

We will have to agree to disagree at this point

Well, thanks to you, we know now that game providers actually know exactly our bet size and set-up a player ID when we start playing on a slot. Things which we have been battered with for years that a game server doesn't have a clue of any of it.

Hence, a game server records exactly how much I have lost, what bet sizes i was using throughout my session, etc. ...that leaves the door open to so many things. How many reports did we not have that the soon bet size was lowered the slot would hit a bonus round. Strange? Not so much anymore after you told us that a game server knows exactly what happens from our end.

Simple or maybe not so simple algorithms can be written, hidden...you name it....for any kind of application...it is all a software. Even when it is just to enhance the addiction capabilities.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well, thanks to you, we know now that game providers actually know exactly our bet size and set-up a player ID when we start playing on a slot. Things which we have been battered with for years that a game server doesn't have a clue of any of it.

Hence, a game server records exactly how much I have lost, what bet sizes i was using throughout my session, etc. ...that leaves the door open to so many things. How many reports did we not have that the soon bet size was lowered the slot would hit a bonus round. Strange? Not so much anymore after you told us that a game server knows exactly what happens from our end.

Simple or maybe not so simple algorithms can be written, hidden...you name it....for any kind of application...it is all a software. Even when it is just to enhance the addiction capabilities.

You're wrong again I'm afraid... The game logic has no idea how much you've won or lost. The game logic is an independent bit of code from the back office system. The two are not the same and the game logic runs completely unaware of the back office system other than sending data to it and fetching info about your wallet so it knows if you have enough credit to play a game.

I don't know why you're so suspicious of the game logic knowing your bet size. It HAS to know your bet size in order to determine the wins. How would it know what value your wins are if it didn't know your bet size? Remember the client is completely dumb... It knows nothing about the game logic and so can't work out the wins for you, and nor should it. It is much safer if the server does everything as that means it can't be hacked.

I think you're just trying to find excuses to disbelieve the truth and fuel your own conspiracy theories... That's fine, but I KNOW you're wrong. You THINK you're right...

Lets just agree to disagree otherwise this is going round in circles...

 

[Harry_BKK]

I will say your own data prove your point. I say mail these to all reputable regulators to see what they say.

I don't know if you were gambling online in the late '90's and early 2000's ...it was an eldorado for money launderers. The first time i was asked for KYC docs was in 2004 or 2005, can't remember exactly...by that time i had deposited and lost online some 0.5Mio Euro...nobody gave a monkeys where the money came from.

Up to 2003 i think it was there was not even a mention of Responsible Gambling on any website.

These are all thing that happened in the last few years, and that only because governments discovered that there is tax that can be collected.

I won't send my data to anyone just to be laughed at in the end. They will dismiss it just like "trancemonkey" did. After all we are told xxx times and supposed to trust them 100% that all is regulated and in perfect order. The answers will be always the same: sample to small, player perception, nobody does that etc etc.

Sorry trancemonkey, i do not mean to offend you....far from that, i am thankful for the info you give here. All readers know now that game servers are not that "blind or deaf" as we have been told for years and years, in contrary they know exactly every single bet coming from a player.

 

[geordiecolin]

Well, thanks to you, we know now that game providers actually know exactly our bet size and set-up a player ID when we start playing on a slot. Things which we have been battered with for years that a game server doesn't have a clue of any of it.

Hence, a game server records exactly how much I have lost, what bet sizes i was using throughout my session, etc. ...that leaves the door open to so many things. How many reports did we not have that the soon bet size was lowered the slot would hit a bonus round. Strange? Not so much anymore after you told us that a game server knows exactly what happens from our end.

Simple or maybe not so simple algorithms can be written, hidden...you name it....for any kind of application...it is all a software. Even when it is just to enhance the addiction capabilities.

As I have my preferred games I have spent most of my deposits on Netent slots. If what you state is true that providers have records of your history then it stands to reason to avoid playing netent and instead I should actively seek out and play slots from providers that I have very little history with. Or at least play at providers that I so far have had very little luck with.
Netent this past few months have been great to me so I can not expect it to continue much longer. Should I form a tick list of providers to play?

 

[funnymunny]

...

All readers know now that game servers are not that "blind or deaf" as we have been told for years and years, in contrary they know exactly every single bet coming from a player.

I don't want to hijack this great thread, (I've avoided posting because of this very purpose), but I felt compelled to add my 2c here...

Harry - you are an established and respected member here, but please don't speak for "all readers".

For >15 years now, I have worked for a number of the industries largest games providers in both the online and offline markets and can categorically state that for every provider I have worked for (including those who's games you play) what trancemonkey has previously stated is correct... Back office servers are completely independent of the game servers and the latter do not know who any of the players are.

There are many reasons for this, but perhaps one of the easiest ones to explain is for player security purposes... If you run a gaming website & take games from a 3rd party company, you won't want that company knowing all your players activity because then your supplier (or more likely an employee) could identify and track the activity of high rollers & mount a targeted campaign to lure them to play elsewhere.

For each game session, a player is allocated a hashed / encrypted ID that is time and date stamped. The site may know for that session 'funnymunny' is playing, but the gaming servers may know me as 'a12bc3PO'. The next session, the site I registered will still see it's me, but the gaming servers may be told I'm 'xXpq763d2'.

Hopefully this helps & thanks to trance for this thread.


Edit to add

As I have my preferred games I have spent most of my deposits on Netent slots. If what you state is true that providers have records of your history then it stands to reason to avoid playing netent and instead I should actively seek out and play slots from providers that I have very little history with. Or at least play at providers that I so far have had very little luck with.
Netent this past few months have been great to me so I can not expect it to continue much longer. Should I form a tick list of providers to play?

This post contains another very good reason why game servers do not identify individual users... Why would a supplier want to risk players not returning to their games?

 

[Harry_BKK]

I don't want to hijack this great thread, (I've avoided posting because of this very purpose), but I felt compelled to add my 2c here...

Harry - you are an established and respected member here, but please don't speak for "all readers".

For >15 years now, I have worked for a number of the industries largest games providers in both the online and offline markets and can categorically state that for every provider I have worked for (including those who's games you play) what trancemonkey has previously stated is correct... Back office servers are completely independent of the game servers and the latter do not know who any of the players are.

There are many reasons for this, but perhaps one of the easiest ones to explain is for player security purposes... If you run a gaming website & take games from a 3rd party company, you won't want that company knowing all your players activity because then your supplier (or more likely an employee) could identify and track the activity of high rollers & mount a targeted campaign to lure them to play elsewhere.

For each game session, a player is allocated a hashed / encrypted ID that is time and date stamped. The site may know for that session 'funnymunny' is playing, but the gaming servers may know me as 'a12bc3PO'. The next session, the site I registered will still see it's me, but the gaming servers may be told I'm 'xXpq763d2'.

Hopefully this helps & thanks to trance for this thread.


Edit to add


This post contains another very good reason why game servers do not identify individual users... Why would a supplier want to risk players not returning to their games?

Sorry but i never said i speak for all readers. What i said is that everyone reading the thread will know now something which we have been told for years was not the case, yet it is.

Of course there will be a new ID for each session, that i never doubted. But for 1 session the game server knows exactly every little detail of my session on that particular slot. Stake increases, decreases, coin changes, autospin, manual spin, etc.

Back-office and game servers independent is not 100% right since they are directly connected to each other.

Fact is that a game provider/server knows exactly the bet size and me pressing "spin" is not purely asking for a random spin result as we have been told gazillions of times. That is how i understand and see it.

 

[trancemonkey]

All readers know now that game servers are not that "blind or deaf" as we have been told for years and years, in contrary they know exactly every single bet coming from a player.

Because they have to - for all the reasons i've already explained... Look i completely understand that you (and others) have a trust issue. That's fine - i'd be exactly the same in your position i'm sure... This thread isn't really about making[\I] you believe me, but it's just telling you the truth as i know it to be. You can believe me or not - that's up to you...

However, this obsession with the game logic knowing your bet size, and that somehow adding fuel to the fire of "conspiracies" just doesn't add up... so for the last time in this thread i'll explain why the game logic HAS to know your bet size:

1. To be able to send the right data through to the game client about the wins - if it doesn't know your bet size, how is it supposed to know how much you've won
2. For some games, where there is persistance (Robin Hood, NetEnt), changing bet will also change how many things you have collected. This is because each "collection" is based on the bet you are playing - it has to be otherwise it would get extremely complex.
3. Games such as The Sky's The Limit on SkyVegas, which has different RTP's at different bet sizes and a different game mode - the server HAS to know the bet size otherwise it couldn't deliver the outcome properly.

The game logic receives NO information about previous play, profit and loss, or any other information that COULD be used in the way Harry thinks it is being used, from the back-end server (where the wallets and player information is stored). When you look at your play history on a website, this comes from the back-office system, not the game logic. The game logic is a bit of code that sits on a server somewhere and acts as an intermediary between the game client (you) and the back-office (the casino).

 

[trancemonkey]

I don't want to hijack this great thread, (I've avoided posting because of this very purpose), but I felt compelled to add my 2c here...

Harry - you are an established and respected member here, but please don't speak for "all readers".

For >15 years now, I have worked for a number of the industries largest games providers in both the online and offline markets and can categorically state that for every provider I have worked for (including those who's games you play) what trancemonkey has previously stated is correct... Back office servers are completely independent of the game servers and the latter do not know who any of the players are.

There are many reasons for this, but perhaps one of the easiest ones to explain is for player security purposes... If you run a gaming website & take games from a 3rd party company, you won't want that company knowing all your players activity because then your supplier (or more likely an employee) could identify and track the activity of high rollers & mount a targeted campaign to lure them to play elsewhere.

For each game session, a player is allocated a hashed / encrypted ID that is time and date stamped. The site may know for that session 'funnymunny' is playing, but the gaming servers may know me as 'a12bc3PO'. The next session, the site I registered will still see it's me, but the gaming servers may be told I'm 'xXpq763d2'.

Hopefully this helps & thanks to trance for this thread.


Edit to add


This post contains another very good reason why game servers do not identify individual users... Why would a supplier want to risk players not returning to their games?

A perfect post - thanks for the extra info! Hopefully Harry will now start to realise that we don't do the stuff he thinks we do... and why we don't But if he doesn't, then at least we tried

 

[BlaCGaming]

I don't know if you were gambling online in the late '90's and early 2000's ...it was an eldorado for money launderers. The first time i was asked for KYC docs was in 2004 or 2005, can't remember exactly...by that time i had deposited and lost online some 0.5Mio Euro...nobody gave a monkeys where the money came from.

Up to 2003 i think it was there was not even a mention of Responsible Gambling on any website.

These are all thing that happened in the last few years, and that only because governments discovered that there is tax that can be collected.

I won't send my data to anyone just to be laughed at in the end. They will dismiss it just like "trancemonkey" did. After all we are told xxx times and supposed to trust them 100% that all is regulated and in perfect order. The answers will be always the same: sample to small, player perception, nobody does that etc etc.

Sorry trancemonkey, i do not mean to offend you....far from that, i am thankful for the info you give here. All readers know now that game servers are not that "blind or deaf" as we have been told for years and years, in contrary they know exactly every single bet coming from a player.

The bottomline is, that none of us can say for certain, trancemonkey may believe that this is too risky to even consider and therefore be a 100% sure its not done, and we all may believe it is done for sure, but no one except for Netent can say for sure.

We all have our little crazy theories, so here is mine:

I believe slots are random "by session/deposit".

So its random whether you are going to win or not, but how you win is already somewhat determined.

So lets say you deposit 100€ and go to Dead or Alive. The game checks your balance and determines outcomes for each bet level.

You have been allocated 2000€ win for a 1,80€ bet, but a loss of your balance should you play on 3,60€ and remain on that.

If you go down to 0,09€ you will have bonus rounds, one of which will pay 200€ if you get to it on this bet.

There might also be a peak of balance that the game will set and you won´t get over that one, no matter what. Unless you withdraw, you will lose eventually.

Why I believe "random by session/deposit" might be the case, is the way the slots run different on each deposit. I leave Book of Dead open, play 0,80€ bets with 20€ and lose it all, very few hit frequency. When I deposit another 20€ without closing the game, it runs completely different on the same bet, lots of near misses and great hit frequency. If I end up losing it again (possibly on a second machine I have open) and make yet another 20€ deposit, I could be back to very few hits or medium frequency.

Obviously this is quite nonsense, the only supporting arguments (if I can call it that) is that this might coincide with the fact that Netent says their maths are very "different".
The other thing is a rep who said in a forum once (not here) that the higher you bet, the higher the variance (obviously far from a fact or credible).

But this is my take on it, and I am sure I will be told that this makes no sense and I am nuts, and I agree, I have no proof, its solely based on perception.

I believe trancemonkey is answering truthfully regardless of thing he just can´t know for sure. So thank you for taking the time, and keeping your cool

Also thanks to the CM Members for their input, this has been a very interesting read so far, from both sides!

 

[trancemonkey]

Fact is that a game provider/server knows exactly the bet size and me pressing "spin" is not purely asking for a random spin result as we have been told gazillions of times. That is how i understand and see it.

Of course it's asking for a random spin result... i've already explained why it needs your bet size...

 

[trancemonkey]

The bottomline is, that none of us can say for certain, trancemonkey may believe that this is too risky to even consider and therefore be a 100% sure its not done, and we all may believe it is done for sure, but no one except for Netent can say for sure.

We all have our little crazy theories, so here is mine:

I believe slots are random "by session/deposit".

So its random whether you are going to win or not, but how you win is already somewhat determined.

So lets say you deposit 100€ and go to Dead or Alive. The game checks your balance and determines outcomes for each bet level.

You have been allocated 2000€ win for a 1,80€ bet, but a loss of your balance should you play on 3,60€ and remain on that.

If you go down to 0,09€ you will have bonus rounds, one of which will pay 200€ if you get to it on this bet.

There might also be a peak of balance that the game will set and you won´t get over that one, no matter what. Unless you withdraw, you will lose eventually.

Why I believe "random by session/deposit" might be the case, is the way the slots run different on each deposit. I leave Book of Dead open, play 0,80€ bets with 20€ and lose it all, very few hit frequency. When I deposit another 20€ without closing the game, it runs completely different on the same bet, lots of near misses and great hit frequency. If I end up losing it again (possibly on a second machine I have open) and make yet another 20€ deposit, I could be back to very few hits or medium frequency.

Obviously this is quite nonsense, the only supporting arguments (if I can call it that) is that this might coincide with the fact that Netent says their maths are very "different".
The other thing is a rep who said in a forum once (not here) that the higher you bet, the higher the variance (obviously far from a fact or credible).

But this is my take on it, and I am sure I will be told that this makes no sense and I am nuts, and I agree, I have no proof, its solely based on perception.

I believe trancemonkey is answering truthfully regardless of thing he just can´t know for sure. So thank you for taking the time, and keeping your cool

Also thanks to the CM Members for their input, this has been a very interesting read so far, from both sides!

This makes no senses, and you are nuts

Seriously though, the method of control you speak of would be so convoluted and difficult to control and implement - random games are easy to implement, but as can be seen by this thread, they can still give the appearance on controlled games! And yeah, i know that as a player and as a designer only too well!

The thing about the rep you mention - that's interesting, because it's the exact opposite of what i would do if i was designing a game to change at higher bets... was it a NetEnt rep?

 

[Jono777]

Without "taking sides", without accusing providers whether things mentioned are part of the code / done on purpose or not. Without saying if these things are ethical or not....

A lot of the points Harry makes are spot on. Yes I went over this ground yesterday and yes valid arguments were made back to me, most of which I actually agree with!

However I cannot argue with what I've witnessed on my screen, time and time again.

Did a little experiment last night (the 2 scatter thing)

Won't bore you with the math but they were very scarce for 80% of my session, the final part of the session (last 100 spins) the increase in 2 scatter appearance increased by over 75%! - Sounds daft but as simple as if they'd be miraculously returned to the reel strips!

The point I think Harry is making on the scatter thing and I am attempting to back up contains no suggestion of malice or otherwise 'hidden agenda' its just simply something which happens.

I know for pretty much 95% certainty there is nowt 'dodgy' behind it as numerous times those 2 scatters have become 3, 4 or 5 and rescued the session, across all providers.

 

[trancemonkey]

Why I believe "random by session/deposit" might be the case, is the way the slots run different on each deposit. I leave Book of Dead open, play 0,80€ bets with 20€ and lose it all, very few hit frequency. When I deposit another 20€ without closing the game, it runs completely different on the same bet, lots of near misses and great hit frequency. If I end up losing it again (possibly on a second machine I have open) and make yet another 20€ deposit, I could be back to very few hits or medium frequency.

What you're describing there, if i may paraphrase, is:

Whenever i open up Book of the Dead, it's pretty random as to how it plays. Sometimes it plays well, and sometimes it plays badly. As if it were, somehow, random

 

[BlaCGaming]

What you're describing there, if i may paraphrase, is:

Whenever i open up Book of the Dead, it's pretty random as to how it plays. Sometimes it plays well, and sometimes it plays badly. As if it were, somehow, random

Thats pretty much how it would remain random, but still be somewhat controlled

So the Book decides, this 20€ deposit he will have wins of 50€ on 0,80€, next one he will have none on this betsize. But enough tinfoil

The rep you asked about wasn´t Netent, pretty sure about that. He might have been RTG. But don´t roast me over a fire RTG, I might be wrong

 

[Harry_BKK]

A perfect post - thanks for the extra info! Hopefully Harry will now start to realise that we don't do the stuff he thinks we do... and why we don't But if he doesn't, then at least we tried

Of course it's asking for a random spin result... i've already explained why it needs your bet size...

What i can agree with is that you need to know the bet size in coins. What that converts to on my end into real money should not matter to the game server.

In my view every single spin/bet should get its own encrypted ID that is sent to the server. Storing a player ID for the whole session can be very much argued about if it is right or not, independent or not, safe or not safe.

Games collecting stuff or advancing on a bonus table - IR, TS2, Robin Hood etc - are stored on the casino server as far as I was told, unless I was told again some "fairy tale".

I just have a problem sending so much data to a server which is supposed to spit out a random result, nothing else, but gets every little detail of my session.

 

[trancemonkey]

What i can agree with is that you need to know the bet size in coins. What that converts to on my end into real money should not matter to the game server.

In my view every single spin/bet should get its own encrypted ID that is sent to the server. Storing a player ID for the whole session can be very much argued about if it is right or not, independent or not, safe or not safe.

Games collecting stuff or advancing on a bonus table - IR, TS2, Robin Hood etc - are stored on the casino server as far as I was told, unless I was told again some "fairy tale".

I just have a problem sending so much data to a server which is supposed to spit out a random result, nothing else, but gets every little detail of my session.

Understood... However, the bet size ISN'T sent to the RNG. That spits out random numbers to determine the outcome of the game and THAT is completely dumb to bet size, player ID, session ID, time of day, weather, what pants you're wearing, sexual orientation, etc...

 

[quber]

I just have a problem sending so much data to a server which is supposed to spit out a random result, nothing else, but gets every little detail of my session.

The RNG server is separate to the game logic, the necessary details are sent to the game server, Bet size is needed to give you the correct win, this will be in coins, it doesn't need to know your currency, ID is needed so the game can send the result to your account to record it in the backend for auditing or CSR purposes. The RNG server gets a request from the game server for a result, the only thing the RNG sees is that request it doesn't get any of the account info so it can't be influenced by it.


edit:Beat me to it Trance. I was writing mine while you were posting

 

[brianmon]

Well, thanks to you, we know now that game providers actually know exactly our bet size and set-up a player ID when we start playing on a slot. Things which we have been battered with for years that a game server doesn't have a clue of any of it.

Hence, a game server records exactly how much I have lost, what bet sizes i was using throughout my session, etc. ...that leaves the door open to so many things. How many reports did we not have that the soon bet size was lowered the slot would hit a bonus round. Strange? Not so much anymore after you told us that a game server knows exactly what happens from our end.

Simple or maybe not so simple algorithms can be written, hidden...you name it....for any kind of application...it is all a software. Even when it is just to enhance the addiction capabilities.

Not that I'm taking any sides in this Harry. But....

One thing to keep in mind, is that over the years there have been many self-styled 'experts' on the forums,who will state their opinions as FACT, who actually have absolutely no inside knowledge, and some reps who are just marketing people, without any technical knowledge.

So what might have been said previously, won't necessarily be true

 

[Petrer10]

VPN, Proxy

So i must play many Casinos with a VPN. Well i take the same Location, Country because my Provider blocked many Onlinecasinos.
The profits of Dead or Alive as an example are extremely different. With VPN never won in xxx Sessions. Without VPN always normally payout. Why?
It is possible that it is Location, IP-dependent?
And if i win a big Jackpot. Get i the Cash with a VPN? Many Casinos allow VPN but when you win big???

 

[trancemonkey]

So i must play many Casinos with a VPN. Well i take the same Location, Country because my Provider blocked many Onlinecasinos.
The profits of Dead or Alive as an example are extremely different. With VPN never won in xxx Sessions. Without VPN always normally payout. Why?
It is possible that it is Location, IP-dependent?
And if i win a big Jackpot. Get i the Cash with a VPN? Many Casinos allow VPN but when you win big???

The game doesn't care whether you're black, white, German, Slovenian, in the bath, wearing fake legs, eating curry or lying in a vat of unicorn milk...

 

[Playford7]

The game doesn't care whether you're black, white, German, Slovenian, in the bath, wearing fake legs, eating curry or lying in a vat of unicorn milk...

Actually cracked me up that post, fantastic reply!..haha

 

[brianmon]

The game doesn't care whether you're black, white, German, Slovenian, in the bath, wearing fake legs, eating curry or lying in a vat of unicorn milk...

Unless you're a non-Scandinavian play a NetEnt progressive jackpot game,

 

[BeardyGuts]

Trancemonkey i think answered the cloning part because it is down to the math model, theme-ing and general User Interface.

By UX i mean User Experience.

Yes there have been copies of Rhino, Book of Ra etc but they are copies and not clones and are never as successful as the originals, in fact some can be complete flops

The Edict/Merkur slots the Cont. Europeans get to play is there any chance they will be available in the UK some time?
They seem to offer something different to the other providers that we get.

 

[slotter999]

Understood... However, the bet size ISN'T sent to the RNG. That spits out random numbers to determine the outcome of the game and THAT is completely dumb to bet size, player ID, session ID, time of day, weather, what pants you're wearing, sexual orientation, etc...

I agree that the RNG will produce a random number based on the parameters it is passed for example game X requests a random number between 1 - 80 and it will return the number 5. The RNG has done its job.

But the game making that RNG call is of course contextually aware of what the significance of that returned value is in regards to the game it is attempting to host because it will be used to determine an outcome.

So the question is not "is the RNG random" because it's fair to assume it is but rather "does the game making the call to the RNG produce identical results based on the return value everytime"?

Here is a theory of mine regarding one particular online slot provider which is coin size uses different sets of virtual reels to determine payout whilst still maintaining RTP. So using the example above a coin size of 1 and a coin size of 10 will produce different outcomes based on an identical response from the RNG. I believe this particular provider makes their games much more volatile at higher coin value whilst maintaining RTP. Using this approach it is possible to maintain a consistent RTP and be 100% random while still providing a very different user experience of the game when playing at different stakes. Sadly, as you have stated previously you have never worked for this company you cannot say whether or not this is true or false :-(

 

[trancemonkey]

I agree that the RNG will produce a random number based on the parameters it is passed for example game X requests a random number between 1 - 80 and it will return the number 5. The RNG has done its job.

But the game making that RNG call is of course contextually aware of what the significance of that returned value is in regards to the game it is attempting to host because it will be used to determine an outcome.

So the question is not "is the RNG random" because it's fair to assume it is but rather "does the game making the call to the RNG produce identical results based on the return value everytime"?

Here is a theory of mine regarding one particular online slot provider which is coin size uses different sets of virtual reels to determine payout whilst still maintaining RTP. So using the example above a coin size of 1 and a coin size of 10 will produce different outcomes based on an identical response from the RNG. I believe this particular provider makes their games much more volatile at higher coin value whilst maintaining RTP. Using this approach it is possible to maintain a consistent RTP and be 100% random while still providing a very different user experience of the game when playing at different stakes. Sadly, as you have stated previously you have never worked for this company you cannot say whether or not this is true or false :-(

It would be feasible and legal to do this... but you're right, i've no knowledge of anyone doing this...
Happy to be proved wrong....

 

[Spikie]

Awp's

Hi Trancemonkey,

First forum post here but what a good subject !

I have a question about the older uk Awp's , I understand that you may not be able to go into too much detail looking at the companies you used to work for, but on the compensated physical games were cheats and empties purposely programmed in ?

You stated earlier that a legit byproduct of a code for hi lo numbers meant that a 'tell' was shown , but did any programmers in the old days go the extra mile and code backdoors and sell them to a chosen few ? Or just code errors that certain people somehow found ?

Or is this just a urban myth ?

I used to clean out an old Swp - JPM £10 Challenge, skill based find the lady machine, prob around 1990 , 10 p stakes £10 jackpot , used to make £20 to £30 off a pound or 2 stake most nights.. Happy days, but never had the patience to try and find tricks on Awp's

Cheers

 

[Jono777]

^^^Excellent question above and one which has had me wondering for years, how I never asked it is anyone's guess!!

Was lucky enough to stumble across several 'gadget free' / 'program error' type emptiers over the years shame I was young and stupid and spent most my profits on booze, fags and women lol

To name a quick few, 777 heaven (and other Projects), Hi Flyer (other Ace clones) Monte Carlo or Bust (BWB) Lotta Luck (Barcrest), Great Escape / Italian Job (Maygay)

Always wondered whether they were genuine errors but also erred on the side that they were never meant to be discovered and as 'early retirement plans' for staff who maybe lost their jobs etc etc.

I also heard (long time back now) that this sort of thing virtually if not completely bankrupt Ace Coin who were based in Telford, Shropshire!

 

[syntynyt]

I know the machine - but I couldn't tell you which one is the most volatile. Sorry

played kitty glitter again. got the bonus with retrigger and 14 free spins with all cats wild. of course the cats and wilds half disappeared from the screen and not once has hit 5 cats/wilds in 1 line from 30 lines, paid 200x after ate 300x looking for this good bonus. big win, the screen going in earthquake mode for... drum roll.... 15x. graphics and effects, paying for animations, no wonder why everyone is avoiding that nice looking cabinet. lost all the money back playing other slots in the same machine... all sucks and with no potential. IGT is playable for fun, a bill then moving on.

 

[trancemonkey]

played kitty glitter again. got the bonus with retrigger and 14 free spins with all cats wild. of course the cats and wilds half disappeared from the screen and not once has hit 5 cats/wilds in 1 line from 30 lines, paid 200x after ate 300x looking for this good bonus. big win, the screen going in earthquake mode for... drum roll.... 15x. graphics and effects, paying for animations, no wonder why everyone is avoiding that nice looking cabinet. lost all the money back playing other slots in the same machine... all sucks and with no potential. IGT is playable for fun, a bill then moving on.

Where are you playing this? It's a really old game....

 

[Spikie]

I also heard (long time back now) that this sort of thing virtually if not completely bankrupt Ace Coin who were based in Telford, Shropshire!

Every time I played Ace machines they seemed like they were always empty.. balance emptier just like people complain nowadays !! Someone must have had some info ........

 

[Simmo!]

The game doesn't care whether you're ... lying in a vat of unicorn milk

Bollocks

 

[syntynyt]

Where are you playing this? It's a really old game....

i know is old but the graphics are remade. i play it in a local cafe bar with wazdan, novo, merkur and igt
this is the cabinet ericflynn.me/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/igtcdppf.jpg
wasn't able to find a better game. people are playing one with pharaons and reels turning wild. i've saw the middle 3 reels all wild and paid 25x, looks like a Bally in paytables.
not a single game i tried had at least 100x for the biggest 5oaks. if you can recommend any i'm all eyes. any hour late is impossible to find a slot to play merkur.. the stories of endless retriggers that circulates makes all to want a part of the cake

 

[Jono777]

Every time I played Ace machines they seemed like they were always empty.. balance emptier just like people complain nowadays !! Someone must have had some info ........

They did

Never seen so many £1 coins - had about 9-10 full pint glasses on my windowsill at home and about 5K in notes.

Plus side was most pubs you could use the tokens at the bar for beers n ciggies.

I'll stop now, making myself sick at the good times long gone lol.

 

[Harry_BKK]

The RNG server is separate to the game logic, the necessary details are sent to the game server, Bet size is needed to give you the correct win, this will be in coins, it doesn't need to know your currency, ID is needed so the game can send the result to your account to record it in the backend for auditing or CSR purposes. The RNG server gets a request from the game server for a result, the only thing the RNG sees is that request it doesn't get any of the account info so it can't be influenced by it.


edit:Beat me to it Trance. I was writing mine while you were posting

Of course it's asking for a random spin result... i've already explained why it needs your bet size...

EDIT: Of course I know that the RNG server is separate, e.g. Netent is using Fortuna. But what i was told is that Netent is getting a set of RNG numbers at a time, it does not ask for a single RNG on each gaming transaction. Maybe that info is wrong, can't confirm it either.

Anyway, as it has been said many times on this forum: random is random is random!

Explain then please one fact, and I would go nearly as far as to showing you my data and logs to give you proof

The top pays on pretty much any slot are a very rare occurrence, e.g. BoD, DoA, TS2, IR etc., I think we can all agree on that.

Now, here's the kicker: whenever you have a 4OAK or 4 lined up on a pay line but no pay because no. 1, 2 or 3 is missing how on earth can that RANDOM RNG manage to fit that symbol in the previously missing spot exactly 1 spin later?

My records show that in 85.6% it appears on any position but on the right reel and in 64.8% in the exact position where it was missing on the previous spin. Now the major symbols have maybe a hit rate of maybe 0.5%, probably much less, to be in the exact spot but that fantastic RNG chooses "oh so randomly" a result for the following spin that shows that symbol in the exact position one spin later in nearly 2/3's of the occurrences, only to be not seen again for the next few dozen of spins.

Unless, of course, it is done on purpose, which then would be NOT random! It would be then specifically done to increase player anxiety which in my view is of questionable integrity!

 

[trancemonkey]

Bollocks

EDIT: Of course I know that the RNG server is separate, e.g. Netent is using Fortuna. But what i was told is that Netent is getting a set of RNG numbers at a time, it does not ask for a single RNG on each gaming transaction. Maybe that info is wrong, can't confirm it either.

Anyway, as it has been said many times on this forum: random is random is random!

Explain then please one fact, and I would go nearly as far as to showing you my data and logs to give you proof

The top pays on pretty much any slot are a very rare occurrence, e.g. BoD, DoA, TS2, IR etc., I think we can all agree on that.

Now, here's the kicker: whenever you have a 4OAK or 4 lined up on a pay line but no pay because no. 1, 2 or 3 is missing how on earth can that RANDOM RNG manage to fit that symbol in the previously missing spot exactly 1 spin later?

My records show that in 85.6% it appears on any position but on the right reel and in 64.8% in the exact position where it was missing on the previous spin. Now the major symbols have maybe a hit rate of maybe 0.5%, probably much less, to be in the exact spot but that fantastic RNG chooses "oh so randomly" a result for the following spin that shows that symbol in the exact position one spin later in nearly 2/3's of the occurrences, only to be not seen again for the next few dozen of spins.

Unless, of course, it is done on purpose, which then would be NOT random! It would be then specifically done to increase player anxiety which in my view is of questionable integrity!

Blimey Harry you have a lot of conspiracies... I'm surprised you even carry on playing if you think they are this rigged!

Seriously though I know what you mean.. It's like where you get two scatters and not the third and on the next spin, miraculously the third appears. Happens on my games too... I sometimes sit cursing my own games when when do stuff like this. I guarantee you its just luck and nothing more...

It is also allowable to get more than one random number if your game has more than one random decision for each spin.

 

[nikantw]

I don't know if you were gambling online in the late '90's and early 2000's ...it was an eldorado for money launderers. The first time i was asked for KYC docs was in 2004 or 2005, can't remember exactly...by that time i had deposited and lost online some 0.5Mio Euro...nobody gave a monkeys where the money came from.

If your money was dirty , you just lost it, you didn’t get them back clean. That is what I am talking about, the definition of money laundering, make your dirty money clean. Unless you own a UK based super reputable online casino (or something like that), you can’t really make your dirty money clean online. That’s all I said.

Up to 2003 i think it was there was not even a mention of Responsible Gambling on any website.

These are all thing that happened in the last few years, and that only because governments discovered that there is tax that can be collected.

I won't send my data to anyone just to be laughed at in the end. They will dismiss it just like "trancemonkey" did. After all we are told xxx times and supposed to trust them 100% that all is regulated and in perfect order. The answers will be always the same: sample to small, player perception, nobody does that etc etc.

I would give it a try because I am sure some of them have good intentions and I am not so sure they are looking for it when they give a license.

All I did in a pc before 2000 was programming and science projects (and searching for Mariah Carey photos ). But I was asked in 2003 for a signed document that I was the owner of every card I ever used and had made every single deposit I ever made, before any withdrawal.

 

[trancemonkey]

My records show that in 85.6% it appears on any position but on the right reel and in 64.8% in the exact position where it was missing on the previous spin. Now the major symbols have maybe a hit rate of maybe 0.5%, probably much less, to be in the exact spot but that fantastic RNG chooses "oh so randomly" a result for the following spin that shows that symbol in the exact position one spin later in nearly 2/3's of the occurrences, only to be not seen again for the next few dozen of spins.

I don't really understand your figures.... what it seems you're saying there is an 85.6% chance that a specific (top) symbol appears on the right reel? So on 85 out of 100 spins you get the highest symbol somewhere on the right-hand reel? And when you get a 4oak win, you're saying that on the next spin, 64.8% of the time the symbol you needed to make the 5oak appears in the exact position you would have needed it?

Please tell me which slot and on which site so i can go and check this out - because this simply doesn't happen (unless you're playing on some really odd sites with really dodgy games providers that i've never heard of!)

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Trancemonkey,

First forum post here but what a good subject !

I have a question about the older uk Awp's , I understand that you may not be able to go into too much detail looking at the companies you used to work for, but on the compensated physical games were cheats and empties purposely programmed in ?

You stated earlier that a legit byproduct of a code for hi lo numbers meant that a 'tell' was shown , but did any programmers in the old days go the extra mile and code backdoors and sell them to a chosen few ? Or just code errors that certain people somehow found ?

Or is this just a urban myth ?

I used to clean out an old Swp - JPM £10 Challenge, skill based find the lady machine, prob around 1990 , 10 p stakes £10 jackpot , used to make £20 to £30 off a pound or 2 stake most nights.. Happy days, but never had the patience to try and find tricks on Awp's

Cheers

I seriously miss doing Fruit Machines... i loved working at JPM, Impulse and Maygay...
With regards to "cheats" then yes, if you're referring to the cancel slow down kind of cheats. The first one i think this was ever on was Bonanza (JPM) although i could be wrong.
Emptiers - well, there have been cases of programmers purposely putting code in to games to enable them to empty the machine, or at the very least gain an advantage - a famous one was an engineer who put in a 64 button combination in to a game (many many years ago) and got caught... however, because of the complexities of legally proving it was him that wrote the code (could of been someone else using his computer while he was on the loo - that kind of argument) he got off with it.
There was stuff in a lot of the old Ace games, such as being able to tell what compensator level a game was in by holding down a button and pressing nudge (when you only had 1 nudge).
Also, the old BWB games (can't remember the names, but one was Rugby themed and one was football themed) which had a BLUE/RED grid in the middle of the top-glass - if you put 5p in to one when it was in attract mode and the grid turned Red, you knew it was going to streak within £10. There were LOADS of stuff like this...

Most emptiers were just people finding problems in the code, but some were a little more than that, i'm sure.

The thing is, there was no peer-review on the code, no government testing, no quality checks back then. The programmer (i.e me) was allowed to come up with the game idea, program it, do all the contol and as long as the autorun showed it hit the required RTP, it went out... it would have been SO easy to put stuff in to the games that gave the programmer an advantage.

PS - The Maygay code 123232313 (some of you may recall) was nothing more than a code we would put in in order to make the machine dump data through the IR port to the devices we used to collect it. It did nothing else, although urban myth said it did....

 

[Monnii]

I have a couple of questions, when i have played book of dead the last couple of days, i first lost 900€ betting between 1-2€ without hitting freespins with about 30% rtp, but almost everytime i got two scatters, the third one landed on last reel one below, is that to make you more hooked to keep playing? And today i played 500€ at 0,50-1€ bet without hitting freespins a single time, again with the same thing happening, almost everytime meaning around 8/10 times i got two scatters, the last one landed one below. And my other question:
When everyones speaking of a slot being hot or cold, as it was for me "cold" at the time bc of not hitting. Is the rtp the same 24/7 or can it be adjustet to like 30% at some times and 110% at others to get to the 90-something percent?
And a last one, if a player loses frequently and still keeps playing, could a casino, seeing this then turn down basically the rtp for one and concentrate that to players who usually stop playing when they hit a cold streak, still maintaining the 97% rtp on slots? I am asking as i am shamefully down 49000 in about 7 months with playing between 0,5€-2€ spins.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I don't really understand your figures.... what it seems you're saying there is an 85.6% chance that a specific (top) symbol appears on the right reel? So on 85 out of 100 spins you get the highest symbol somewhere on the right-hand reel? And when you get a 4oak win, you're saying that on the next spin, 64.8% of the time the symbol you needed to make the 5oak appears in the exact position you would have needed it?

Please tell me which slot and on which site so i can go and check this out - because this simply doesn't happen (unless you're playing on some really odd sites with really dodgy games providers that i've never heard of!)

I play mainly the slots I mentioned in my post.

Red Tiger, Elk or Yggdrasil are not as bad, the main culprits are Netent and MG.

But I mean different:

- spin 1 - 4OAK of top symbol or 4 in a pay line with reel 1, 2, 3 or 4 missing.
- next spin - 85.6% --> the missing symbol shows on the right reel but not in the right position, 64.8% --> it is on the right reel and the right position where it should have been on the previous spin.

Now that top symbol is so rare on a reel strip, to be there so often exactly 1 spin later cannot be random. That is what i meant.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Blimey Harry you have a lot of conspiracies... I'm surprised you even carry on playing if you think they are this rigged!

Seriously though I know what you mean.. It's like where you get two scatters and not the third and on the next spin, miraculously the third appears. Happens on my games too... I sometimes sit cursing my own games when when do stuff like this. I guarantee you its just luck and nothing more...

It is also allowable to get more than one random number if your game has more than one random decision for each spin.

not talking about the scatters.... the 3rd has 3 reels to pop in on the next spin, given that they drop in once in 15-20 spins it is not that improbable although still annoying.

 

[trancemonkey]

I play mainly the slots I mentioned in my post.

Red Tiger, Elk or Yggdrasil are not as bad.

But I mean different:

- spin 1 - 4OAK of top symbol or 4 in a pay line with reel 1, 2, 3 or 4 missing.
- next spin - 85.6% --> the missing symbol shows on the right reel but not in the right position, 64.8% --> it is on the right reel and the right position where it should have been on the previous spin.

Now that top symbol is so rare on a reel strip, to be there so often exactly 1 spin later cannot be random. That is what i meant.

I'll check this on DOA later and do my own test then....

 

[Harry_BKK]

I'll check this on DOA later and do my own test then....

Good luck

The percentage on DOA has been decreasing slightly since they introduced the HMTL5 version...it is shown now more often exactly one position above or below the needed position on the actual spin and less on the next spin.

Just watch on DOA when you have 4OAK hats, holster or sheriff star or one missing on a reel. My numbers are an average from 3.2mio recorded spins.

I understand that they are only visuals but that is exactly what goes into the player's subconsciousness.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I'll check this on DOA later and do my own test then....

Alternatively, try Loaded/Sure Win from MG but to be honest it is not different on other slots either. TS2 and IR are just as bad with having the right symbol exactly one spin later especially Michael, Troy and Sarah.

I am sure other players are seeing that too.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I'll check this on DOA later and do my own test then....

I had times where i would wait 2-3 minutes between the spins just to see if it would happen at the same rate...and indeed it was, no change, just looked to me like it was programmed.

Sorry for all this tinfoil stories but the numbers I get just make me wonder. And I think if we discuss them in this thread they can be cleared off and but to bed once and for all or proven right.

 

[brianmon]

I had times where i would wait 2-3 minutes between the spins just to see if it would happen at the same rate...and indeed it was, no change, just looked to me like it was programmed.

Sorry for all this tinfoil stories but the numbers I get just make me wonder. And I think if we discuss them in this thread they can be cleared off and but to bed once and for all or proven right.

I've seen the same thing happen many many time, although I've never documented it.

Also something I noticed on, mainly, IR. If you get say Sarah on just reels 1, 2, 4 & 5, there is almost always a scatter in the missing position, reel 3.
It's the same if the missing Sarah is on reel 1 or 2, It's almost always filled with a scatter. and then as you say the Sarah lands on the next spin in the missing position

 

[Jono777]

I've seen the same thing happen many many time, although I've never documented it.

Also something I noticed on, mainly, IR. If you get say Sarah on just reels 1, 2, 4 & 5, there is almost always a scatter in the missing position, reel 3.
It's the same if the missing Sarah is on reel 1 or 2, It's almost always filled with a scatter. and then as you say the Sarah lands on the next spin in the missing position

Ain't that a fact, I've almost broken things over this repeat event