APCW Damaging Audit of Full Tilt Misleading


Aug 3, 2002
Las Vegas
APCW has an "audit" of Full Tilt here:

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The audit, for lack of a better word makes absolutely no sense. The comparisons are terrible, the sample size is ridiculously small and hands that are sngs, mtts and cash games are all lumped together. The survey also uses stats that are wrong and constantly uses the phrases "vs random hands" when the hands are known. There is also a comparison of AA/KK vs the field with 110 samples and the count isn't disclosed how many of each there is a makeup and how many of the KK's lost to Ax etc. The whole thing is disgraceful.

A well respected mod and poster at 2+2 was confronted by some conspiracy theorist to this study. This poster put forth a bunch of factual and statistical errors as well as pointed out countless theories that were assumed with no facts or can outright be unproven. An admin there openly admitted "First and foremost we have acknowledged the flaws with this audit. " OK, so they know the audit was flawed, they admit they have never done anything like this before and from reading the report it seems very clear the author is not a poker player. The admin goes on to seem to blame WOO and 2+2 for not helping him.

We sent several emails to 2+2 months before we did the audit, asking for your input and assistance, and they went unanswered

Of course Mason isn't going to get involved in some ridiculous conspiracy theory

We asked the Wizard of Odds to assist us in this project, but he too refused to answer emails.

I can see why he wouldn't either. Blaming others for not helping you doesn't give you the right to publish a very damaging false claim against Full Tilt.

The poster that showed up the study as being inaccurate and basically libel had his posts removed and was banned and was then insulted by an admin:

Obviously you are one of those arrogant, cannibalistic type we so frequently encountered at 2+2. I don't think any of you actually believed AP or UB had "integrity" issues either, until it was shoved down your throats and you were forced to admit it. I guess if this thread cannot be about how great you are and how stupid we are then you resort to lower and lower insults, even in the face of our good intentions to serve the industry. Clearly you are a class act, but I hope not an average representation of 2+2.

Thank you for clearly demonstrating the frustrations and disappointments the APCW had to deal with when we asked for 2+2's assistance in the first place. Thank you for showing the readers here that while the APCW is run by humans, capable of error and willing to admit it, at least you seize upon every opportunity possible to belittle others. Thank you for taking time out of your day to preserve a record of your professionalism.

The APCW has been a respected member of the online gaming community for many years without your assistance, and we continue to do so despite the best efforts of people like you with too much time and too few hobbies. While the rest of us work to make this a better place, you can keep hurling insults and showing everyone why the most you will ever attain in this industry is moderator of a message board.

I have the posts saved and cannot for the life of me figure out where this comes from. Basically APCW was shown up, proved to not understand poker but yet published an admitted flawed audit, were asked to remove damaging libel that affects the entire industry's reputation but instead they banned the poster, locked their forum to non members and blasted this insult. BTW 2+2 were the people that busted Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet, I don't get the first comment at all.

I have complete respect for much of the work at APCW as it pertains to CardSpike and believe they have a place and value in this industry which shocks me even more that this is even available on their site when they admit it is flawed. I help mod a 2+2 forum of the poster that brought this out and his "job" there is to help noobs. That is how he stumbled upon this audit. After watching the audit and reading what "Cry Me a River" has to say I can completely say this report done by APCW is worthless and damages the industry without any proof. There is no reason to libel/slander Full Tilt and the entire industry when it is obvious the study is completely wrong. I hope they will consider removing that from their site for the good of their own site, Full Tilt and the entire online poker industry.

I believe the discussion needed to continue somewhere that it wouldn't get deleted. Maybe this isn't allowed here, it isn't meant as an attack it is meant to get the attention of the community about something APCW has done that is very damaging, false and needs to be corrected.

Sidestepping these questions made by CMAR leads me to believe the study isn't intentionally wrong but that the author has little poker knowledge. The video gives that away as these come out.

2) Please explain how the APCW decided in "AUDIT THREE" that A2s is a better starting hand than A8s. And given that they did, why we should listen to anything they have to say about poker?

3) Please explain why the APCW chart used in "AUDIT THREE" calls AKo, KQo and KJo "below average hands". And given that they did, why we should listen to anything they have to say about poker?

Edit: I wish I could edit the title to something better, it shouldn't come off that way. Can an admin change it to "APCW Damaging Audit of Full Tilt Misleading".


Keep winning this amount.
Mar 10, 2005
2) Please explain how the APCW decided in "AUDIT THREE" that A2s is a better starting hand than A8s.

Easy. With A2s you can flop a straight, a flush or even a straight flush! :rolleyes:


Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Dec 10, 2006
AUDITS and I have an on-going love/hate relationship,LOLOL.:D. Not sure why Pokeraddict's post brings the quote below to mind or maybe I am;). No, I have not been drinking!!:)

"There are few things that are so unpardonably neglected in our country as poker. The upper class knows very little about it. Now and then you find ambassadors who have sort of a general knowledge of the game, but the ignorance of the people is fearful. Why, I have known clergymen, good men, kind-hearted, liberal, sincere, and all that, who did not know the meaning of a "flush." It is enough to make one ashamed of one's species."
- quoted in A Bibliography of Mark Twain
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Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Jun 3, 2006
Hell on Earth
I guess I just don't get why someone that does not intimately know the game would attempt to do an "audit" in the first place.

2+2 and the Wiz are not the only places that could have been contacted for 'expert' assistance.

There are actually real professional Auditors out there that understand the game, the poker rooms and the math.

There is no excuse for a haf arsed "audit" to ever see the light of day.

@ Pokeraddict - You know, if you were to publish an "Audit" of Full Tilt (or any other poker room for that matter), people would pay attention.

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