A question about Immortal Romance / Thunderstruck 2 bonuses

[davos11]

I have always wondered with these slots if bonus selection has any impact on your winnings ,

These slots are supposed to be RNG's and each spin is essentially a winner of varying amounts or a loser , So when triggering the bonus of a RNG spin , Is that Win already decided before selecting a bonus so no matter which of the 4 you pick you will end up with the same amount , I have played these alot ,and the last 2 bonuses of 20 and 25 spins on Immortal or completely turd and it seems that is a running theme with other guys on this forum .

Do Microgaming actually have bonuses set up in that choice that are just out and out worse than the others , Would that be allowed ?

Warning , There may be more stupid questions like this coming soon as i attempt to understand how some of these things work a bit better ,

thanks

 

[KasinoKing]

I have always wondered with these slots if bonus selection has any impact on your winnings ,

These slots are supposed to be RNG's and each spin is essentially a winner of varying amounts or a loser , So when triggering the bonus of a RNG spin , Is that Win already decided before selecting a bonus so no matter which of the 4 you pick you will end up with the same amount...

There are 2 schools of thought on this:
Yours (as above) - the total win is "predetermined" the moment the "spin" button is pressed.
And "mine" - the outcome of the bonus feature is NOT decided before the feature actually starts, but is derived from further single or multiple RNG outputs.

In the case of all MG free-spin features, I believe that each spin is an independent random event and the final outcome is just down to luck.
I can't prove that of course, but the "pre-determined" backers can't prove their theory either.

At the end of the day, does it really matter? Whichever way it works if you're lucky you get a big win, and if you're unlucky you don't.

KK

 

[catapultaudio]

On some of the other similar games eg. Playboy the features have different possible maximum wins therefore its not possible the total can be calculated at least until the feature is chosen. I'm fairly confident its how you say KasinoKing, a series of random spins same as the main game, afterall its much simpler to program it that way than producing a series of spins to add up to a predetermined amount... and I can't think of any advantage to doing it that way for the casino/programmer

 

[davos11]

Thanks man ,

To be honest as you said there are only 2 ways and the other way you mentioned was in my thinking to , But this is the bit that asks more questions really ,

1.Should we have the right to know as players ,If we ask should they tell us , If predetermined then at least we know we can happily pick any bonus and not be any worse off then we would by picking any other

2. If its not predetermined then do we think the average payout for each of the 4 character selections differs , From what i gauge on here ,The last 2 characters are to be avoided like the plague , especially wild vine , As we know fairly often the wild vine symbol does not arrive at all therefor rendering the feature of this bonus useless and essentially just 25 free spins with no extras ,Or it drops in 2 or 3 times but in cash terms does not boost your winnings by usually just filling the end reel or 2nd reel

Personally i choose the bat feature as it seems more consistent and you can still get big hits ,

My next question is then if like you say every spin is individual according to the RNG , does this also take into account extra feature the bonus provides ,Say you get 3 kings on the bat features , the bat comes down and connects do give you 5 kings , So when the RNG span out a win , was it the 5 king win and we just had a little graphic of the bat come down even though the 5 kings were predetermined or was the actual bat feature that gave us 5 kings , on what otherwise would of been 3 kings as the RNG span out .

Maybe us as players can never know and maybe that makes it a bit more exciting but it would be really interesting to see a chart of average winnings from each character bonus , I may even do this one day on free play , Obviously it wont be precise as you wold need 1000's of bonuses to get a true average but it would certainly give us an idea and may help us eliminate picking certain characters that on average pay quite a large portion less .

It would seem strange that on a RNG a player would be able to make a personal choice that would then affect the final payout ..

Do you think if i emailed Microgaming they would tell us , I cant see that it is gaining us an unfair advantage .

 

[davos11]

And as you say Cata ,

It seems , especially on Playboy that each bonus is almost its own slot ,With its own variance ,You are more likely to get smaller wins as if the wilds don't come in for you on the reels , then essentially it is 15 standard spins ,But if they do you can hit a much much bigger win then you could do on any of the other bonuses , To some degree the same could apply to the wild night feature but perhaps not to the same level

Were as the first bonus doesn't hit as high but is usually good for a 20-50x

It would just be really interesting to know all this kind of stuff so as a player you can characterize your play ,If you want to be more secure and slowly boost your bank take the 10 spins with the x5 multiplier , If you have a big bank and want to go for it take the rolling wilds , perhaps your down to your last few credits , you get a bonus and you want to secure some more play , If one slot is designed to have a lower variance than another it would be nice to know which ones so you can manage your play

 

[dunover]

Thanks man ,

To be honest as you said there are only 2 ways and the other way you mentioned was in my thinking to , But this is the bit that asks more questions really ,

1.Should we have the right to know as players ,If we ask should they tell us , If predetermined then at least we know we can happily pick any bonus and not be any worse off then we would by picking any other

2. If its not predetermined then do we think the average payout for each of the 4 character selections differs , From what i gauge on here ,The last 2 characters are to be avoided like the plague , especially wild vine , As we know fairly often the wild vine symbol does not arrive at all therefor rendering the feature of this bonus useless and essentially just 25 free spins with no extras ,Or it drops in 2 or 3 times but in cash terms does not boost your winnings by usually just filling the end reel or 2nd reel

Personally i choose the bat feature as it seems more consistent and you can still get big hits ,

My next question is then if like you say every spin is individual according to the RNG , does this also take into account extra feature the bonus provides ,Say you get 3 kings on the bat features , the bat comes down and connects do give you 5 kings , So when the RNG span out a win , was it the 5 king win and we just had a little graphic of the bat come down even though the 5 kings were predetermined or was the actual bat feature that gave us 5 kings , on what otherwise would of been 3 kings as the RNG span out .

Maybe us as players can never know and maybe that makes it a bit more exciting but it would be really interesting to see a chart of average winnings from each character bonus , I may even do this one day on free play , Obviously it wont be precise as you wold need 1000's of bonuses to get a true average but it would certainly give us an idea and may help us eliminate picking certain characters that on average pay quite a large portion less .

It would seem strange that on a RNG a player would be able to make a personal choice that would then affect the final payout ..

Do you think if i emailed Microgaming they would tell us , I cant see that it is gaining us an unfair advantage .

If you e-mail MG they will ignore you or send a message saying "We don't officially exist."
On the bats feature, the wins x stake possible are exactly the same as in normal play - your scenario would give 4 kings with a wild in normal play. If the 5 kings came in and the 2 x raven dropped, that would be equivalent to 5 kings plus a wild with one of them in view, i.e. 3 x 5 base-kings. The raven is just a video graphic.

As for stats kktmd did them for over a million spins on IR taking all features 1/4 of the time. So these already exist.

If you played IR for a million spins and played the SAME feature the whole time, your RTP would be the same, 96% whichever feature you chose. The features are irrelevant to long-term RTP.

The features do though have a different variance, the 5x spins being the highest and the rolling reels the lowest.

 

[davos11]

Ok thanks alot man

So just confirm the bonuses are not predetermined and what you mean is in a near about way , You could take the first girl bonus on playboy 100 times say for an average of 50x stake each bonus giving you a turnover of 5000 winnings over the 100times , and on the rolling wilds feature you could hit 10x stake on say 99 of them then on the final bonus get a win of 4000 making the 2 equal over time ( but obviously over a much larger playing period )

This is all great information for me as i play low stakes with small banks so knowing which bonuses to avoid due to variance is great ,

Is there anyway you can point me in the direction of the stats you mentioned or is it easy to find in the search ?

thanks

 

[davos11]

Also i'm not sure i understood all of this

"If you e-mail MG they will ignore you or send a message saying "We don't officially exist."
On the bats feature, the wins x stake possible are exactly the same as in normal play - your scenario would give 4 kings with a wild in normal play. If the 5 kings came in and the 2 x raven dropped, that would be equivalent to 5 kings plus a wild with one of them in view, i.e. 3 x 5 base-kings. The raven is just a video graphic."

I'm aware the raven is just a graphic but surely the spins are not the same as normal play or there is no bonus about this bonus , For instance with the bat you can obviously get 2 wilds on the same reel or if the 2nd raven drops you could get 2 reels with 2 wild symbols instead of the usual 1 in base play so it couldn't be just a substitute for a normal play wild symbol .

For instance you get 5 wilds one spin then 2 bats drop in , That is a spin not achievable in normal play and would pay more than any spin in normal play ,If they drop on reels not already occupied by wilds of course

I'm sure i'm getting the wrong end of the stick with this

 

[brianmon]

On the bats feature, the wins x stake possible are exactly the same as in normal play - your scenario would give 4 kings with a wild in normal play. If the 5 kings came in and the 2 x raven dropped, that would be equivalent to 5 kings plus a wild with one of them in view, i.e. 3 x 5 base-kings.

Don't forget though, it is possible to have both ravens (x2 and x3) drop on to the reels giving a 6x multiplier, plus if they don't land on the existing winning combinations, that's also 2 extra wilds. I doesn't happen often, but i've had it quite a few times. It's also the same with the bats on IR.

I won these with a 6x muliplier on one of the spins

 

[Balthazar]

I have always wondered with these slots if bonus selection has any impact on your winnings

These were made by KKTMD after running over 1M spins on each of the MGS 243 "monsters".

As you can clearly see, the RTP is virtually the same for each feature but the variance isn't. So it's not predetermined and your pick does matter (ie: on Playboy, you can't expect a 3000x win on the Ashley feature but it's possible on Running5).

Also, there are good reasons to believe that each spin during a bonus round is treated independently as the software makes a request to the server for each one of them. If you quit in the middle of a bonus round, you can resume it days later and I highly doubt that the result for the total of your bonus round is stored server side at the time that you pick the bonus.

 

[Balthazar]

If you e-mail MG they will ignore you

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one that got ignored by them.

 

[brianmon]

Also, there are good reasons to believe that each spin during a bonus round is treated independently as the software makes a request to the server for each one of them. If you quit in the middle of a bonus round, you can resume it days later and I highly doubt that the result for the total of your bonus round is stored server side at the time that you pick the bonus.

It Could actually be stored server-side. Because if you quit right after the bonus round. when you login again, even weeks or months later, the bonus final result screen is displayed, rather than the reels, even though the bonus completed

 

[catapultaudio]

It Could actually be stored server-side. Because if you quit right after the bonus round. when you login again, even weeks or months later, the bonus final result screen is displayed, rather than the reels, even though the bonus completed

That screen is showing the outcome of your last spin though, he's saying the final result almost certainly isn't stored at the time you PICK a feature - not when the feature finishes. The server most certainly does store the result of each completed spin, so it can be viewed in playcheck etc.

 

[brianmon]

That screen is showing the outcome of your last spin though, he's saying the final result almost certainly isn't stored at the time you PICK a feature - not when the feature finishes. The server most certainly does store the result of each completed spin, so it can be viewed in playcheck etc.

I'm referring to the 'picture' screen at the end of the feature. It shows the total of the bonus, not the last free spin. There's no reason why this total figure couldn't have been generated and stored on the server when the feature was chosen.

Even when you've clicked on 'return to game' (or whatever it says), as long as you don't make a spin after it. you can log out. but when you return, whenever that might be, this result screen will be shown again. so why would it be necessary to store the result when the feature's over and done with, you've accepted the result and returned to the base game?

 

[randomiam]

heres another one

if you get wild desire or thunderstorm as soon as the feature starts the outcome has hit your balance in the main lobby.
I've also had a total win glitch in rolling wheels feature where it says big win with the amount while the winning spin is still in progress.

 

[whodatrec]

Im not sure about MG. But playing Ruby slippers on Maria i could see my balance updating before i the ruby slippers feature was done. On the other hand when i got the freespins or pick me feature it didd not update my balance until the feature was done.

 

[Balthazar]

if you get wild desire or thunderstorm as soon as the feature starts the outcome has hit your balance in the main lobby.
I've also had a total win glitch in rolling wheels feature where it says big win with the amount while the winning spin is still in progress.

The Wild Desire bonus is a single spin and when the animation starts the software already knows the result of that spin. Same thing happens when you stop a regular spin, the reel animation is unnecessary and you get the result immediately.

 

[aceking123]

The Wild Desire bonus is a single spin and when the animation starts the software already knows the result of that spin. Same thing happen when you stop a regular spin, the reel animation is unnecessary and you get the result immediately.

your right there the wild being a single wild lol

 

[catapultaudio]

I'm referring to the 'picture' screen at the end of the feature. It shows the total of the bonus, not the last free spin. There's no reason why this total figure couldn't have been generated and stored on the server when the feature was chosen.

Even when you've clicked on 'return to game' (or whatever it says), as long as you don't make a spin after it. you can log out. but when you return, whenever that might be, this result screen will be shown again. so why would it be necessary to store the result when the feature's over and done with, you've accepted the result and returned to the base game?

I understand which screen you mean, but as mentioned earlier in the thread the feature itself is to the game engine, part of the winnings from your last paid spin. Until all free spins are completed the difference in your balance is not known. As soon as the feature completes the total winnings are then added to your balance, recorded against your wager in playcheck etc. It's just the same as if you have a win in a video poker game then quit out straight afterwards, the next time you return to the game even if its weeks later the result of your last hand and the win is still shown on screen - the game is just checking the playcheck log, finding the outcome of your last game, and continuing from there, which in the case of the slot, is you being shown the outcome of your last (paid) spin, and being asked to acknowledge it.

The reason the result is stored even though the feature is over and done with, is its not actually the result of the feature - its the feature plus the scatter win plus any line wins, and that information has to be stored alongside your wager in the game log. It's marked as a special result because of the feature win, but its otherwise no different to any other spin as far as the game logic is concerned.

It is entirely possible that right after you choose a feature (in games like TS2), the game then generates all 10 free spins immediately, and whether you view them all right away or come back and see some of them later you might always get the same result, but we'll never know if thats the case. I am extremely confident though, as a programmer myself, that its not written "lets come up with a win number, then mould whichever feature they choose into a sequence of spins that matches that figure", because to do so would be an unnecessary nightmare when code is already written to generate a series of individual spins. Its a very minimal amount of effort to sum the outcome of those 10 spins using the existing generating code compared to trying to randomly assign chunks of a number to x amount of spins of a feature that hasn't been chosen yet - and theres absolutely no advantage to doing it that way for the developer or casino anyway.

 

[catapultaudio]

if you get wild desire or thunderstorm as soon as the feature starts the outcome has hit your balance in the main lobby.
I've also had a total win glitch in rolling wheels feature where it says big win with the amount while the winning spin is still in progress.

This is because the game already knows which symbols are going to explode, what symbols are sitting above the screen, where they will land, if they will create any further combinations, so what will then explode, and what is sitting above the new layout, rinse and repeat until there are no winning combinations - infact that is a central aspect of how RTP is calculated for a rolling reels game, its actually no different to a static layout as far as the game engine is concerned, the second the reels stop it can instantly work out whatever combinations are present both as the reels lie, and as they will fall all the way to the end of the spin.