3Dice slot design

[An_Alien]

I am wondering if someone with knowledge in slot design can help answer a question i raised with 3Dice casino. I raised this issue with Andrea who then referred me to Anna. She done her best to help but said she honestly could not see the point I was making and it was then referred to Enzo but I have not had a reply so I figured I would post here and perhapes someone can tell me if I raised a valid point.

First of all I would just like to say im not out to attack 3Dice. They are currently my casino of choice and i've not had any problems with them. I dont wish to be seen as trying to "rock the boat" which is why I rasied this point with 3Dice first rather than post here.

I suggested to 3Dice that Tutankhamun appears to be a clone of Microgamings slot Isis. I was assured this is not possible because they run on different platforms. I feel that is irrelevant though because I am speaking about the design of the slot itself.

Isis is a 25 line slot which overs odds of 600/1 for hitting 5 scatters and awards 30 free spins. 4 scatters gives 25 free spins and pays 20/1 and 3 scatters gives 20 free spins pays 4/1. The wild symbol also doubles all wins. These rules are quite specific so it should be unlikely to find another slot using the exact same rules and payout values for the feature. But as many of you who play at 3Dice will know, this is exactly the same rules for Tutankhamun.

See screenshot below.

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As 3Dice slots are designed by their own team I found it rather coincidental that they used these exact same rules and payout values for both scatters and wilds. It would not be so surprising is it was a standard 15 free spins at X3 multiplier because many slots have this same feature, however, I believe the rules for Isis are rather specific so it's unlikely for another slot designer to use these exact same rules.

I understand this alone is nothing to get too excited about but I then discovered that these slots also have the exact same paytables.

See screenshot below.

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They are a perfect match. The only difference being the graphics display of each symbol. All rules, symbols and payout values are the same. They are the same game. The only difference being the order the symbols appear on the reels but since you can rearrange the symbols from each reel into any order and theoretically the payout will always be the same then I feel that is irrelevant.

If 3Dice slots are disigned by their own team from a "blank canvas" then surely the chances of designing the exact same slot are impossible. This is why I feel I did raise a valid point and now hopefully someone here can explain this to me.

Both games also happen to be Egyptian themed but that could always be a coincidence.

 

[jod5413]

Alien,

I do not know whether you have a valid point or not. In my years of gambling on line, I have seen many, many slots across the different platforms that are almost identical. Cloning within software providers is a given and I would think that in the industry there are lots of folks that have seen them all. It is very possible that similar ideas about slots could be totally innocent happenings. I would guess that a lot of slot designers have memories that pop up and influence their creations.

 

[refre]

It's no secret that Tut is a lot like Isis (and that other clone).
I don't feel 3Dice has tried to hide the fact, it's common knowledge for those playing both at 3Dice and MG.

As far as I know though, the reel layout of Isis has not been made available by MG, so anyone replicating the paytable will have to figure out themselves how to balance out the RTP. Like placing wilds and scatters (and all other symbols) on the reel strips.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with it, as long you don't copy the design and graphics.

Freddy

 

[just play]

Why does this matter? Forgive me for being naive if I am missing something?

 

[An_Alien]

Thanks for your replies!

I thought this most likely to be common knowledge with players of MG and 3Dice.

When I raised the question with support they said it was the first time someone had reported this so I thought if it really was common knowledge then they would have answered my question there and then.

 

[refre]

The only difference being the order the symbols appear on the reels but since you can rearrange the symbols from each reel into any order and theoretically the payout will always be the same then I feel that is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. The number of symbols varies from reel to reel. Same goes for how many times each symbol appears. Lower paying symbols will appear more often than wilds and scatters.


Freddy

 

[An_Alien]

It's not irrelevant. The number of symbols varies from reel to reel. Same goes for how many times each symbol appears. Lower paying symbols will appear more often than wilds and scatters.


Freddy

Yes but I mean you can rearrange the symbols on each individual reel. Reel 1 can have the symbols rearranged into any order and because the results are random it will pay the exact same return

 

[just play]

Alien...can you answer this?

Why does this matter? Forgive me for being naive if I am missing something?

 

[rockycatt]

some one on this board mentioned that on 3 dice that the tiles actually spin individual and that they werent on film strips

now i dont know beans about this techie stuff but the unnamed person that drooped that does , and he also likes to drink and post so is it possible that its true about the tiles each spinning and not a film strip ??????

 

[An_Alien]

Alien...can you answer this?

I'm sure it wont matter to most people.

I always thought 3Dice was unique and it was their own team who designed their games. But If they look at other softwares and copy those slots to their own software then that is not unique and the credit lies with Microgaming for creating the original.

 

[mwhitak2]

I'm sure it wont matter to most people.

I always thought 3Dice was unique and it was their own team who designed their games. But If they look at other softwares and copy those slots to their own software then that is not unique and the credit lies with Microgaming for creating the original.

Thanks for the informative post and screen shots but I'm thinking along the same lines as just play.

What is the question to 3Dice? Are you just wanting them to say, "Yes, Isis was an inspiration for Tut." or "No, there is no correlation between the two slots and any evidence is purely coincidental." What are you trying to achieve? When Enzo answers your question what actions do you want taken? Are you just wanting them to answer the question purely for your own self satisfaction of knowing more about Tut?

I hope the tone in my post is not interpreted as being sarcastic or negative. I just want to know why you want to know. Hope that makes sense.

 

[An_Alien]

Thanks for the informative post and screen shots but I'm thinking along the same lines as just play.

What is the question to 3Dice? Are you just wanting them to say, "Yes, Isis was an inspiration for Tut." or "No, there is no correlation between the two slots and any evidence is purely coincidental." What are you trying to achieve? When Enzo answers your question what actions do you want taken? Are you just wanting them to answer the question purely for your own self satisfaction of knowing more about Tut?

I hope the tone in my post is not interpreted as being sarcastic or negative. I just want to know why you want to know. Hope that makes sense.

I would like to know why they choose to copy a slot from a rival software rather than create their own.

It's not "inspired by" because it is an exact copy. To me it seems lazy and unprofessional as they could have at least made slight changes.

Like I said im sure most people could not care less I saw them as a casino who strive to be better than any other. I think it looks bad to copy games from other leading softwares.

 

[butterflyboogie]

Are You Kidding Me??

I would like to know why they choose to copy a slot from a rival software rather than create their own.

It's not "inspired by" because it is an exact copy. To me it seems lazy and unprofessional as they could have at least made slight changes.

Like I said im sure most people could not care less I saw them as a casino who strive to be better than any other. I think it looks bad to copy games from other leading softwares.

Hello Alien,

No disrespect here, but are you kidding me?? It is amazing to me how an individual can look at one game at one casino and then compare it to another on another casino and then accuse one or the other of copying. It is like, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Who knows where ideas come from, and to be honest, who cares?? They are different games, they look different and they certainly feel different to me. I have played MG for 10 years and 3Dice for the past couple of years and to me (maybe I am closed minded) but I never put the 2 together. In fact, in all actuality, I prefer Isis over Tut, but that is just my personal opinion. However, other games that 3Dice has I prefer them over other platforms. It is just a matter of taste and preference.

However, in saying this, I can assure you that 3Dice is not "lazy" as you suggest. Look at the new game Wild Waves or Squirrel Pike and you will see the difference between these types of games and other platforms. Just as if you look at the games like Hitman (which I use to play before USA limits) and it was a totally different "feel" than other games.

I know you didn't ask for my advice, but just play the games, enjoy the games, regardless of who did what, when and where. If you can't do that then just quit playing the games. There is more in life to stress about than this...don't you think?

 

[An_Alien]

Hello Alien,

No disrespect here, but are you kidding me?? It is amazing to me how an individual can look at one game at one casino and then compare it to another on another casino and then accuse one or the other of copying. It is like, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Who knows where ideas come from, and to be honest, who cares?? They are different games, they look different and they certainly feel different to me. I have played MG for 10 years and 3Dice for the past couple of years and to me (maybe I am closed minded) but I never put the 2 together. In fact, in all actuality, I prefer Isis over Tut, but that is just my personal opinion. However, other games that 3Dice has I prefer them over other platforms. It is just a matter of taste and preference.

However, in saying this, I can assure you that 3Dice is not "lazy" as you suggest. Look at the new game Wild Waves or Squirrel Pike and you will see the difference between these types of games and other platforms. Just as if you look at the games like Hitman (which I use to play before USA limits) and it was a totally different "feel" than other games.

I know you didn't ask for my advice, but just play the games, enjoy the games, regardless of who did what, when and where. If you can't do that then just quit playing the games. There is more in life to stress about than this...don't you think?

You need to look past the visuals and look at how it operates "mechanically". Then they are the same game.

It's like buying a new car then spray painting it a different colour and claiming you designed it yourself simply because it "looks different".

I did not call 3Dice lazy. I said it seems lazy to copy and it is. I made it clear in my post im not out to attack 3Dice.

 

[An_Alien]

There is more in life to stress about than this...don't you think?

I couldn't agree more. Thanks!

I said everything I need to so i wont be contributing anymore to this topic. It would have been nice if 3Dice replied since they did view the thread.

Perhaps only another "geek" like me would understand the true significance of the point I raised but I feel the next person to say "No disrespect" I will most certainly feel disrespected so im bailing now while im still in a good mood

Back to Omicron Persei 8

 

[weplant]

Alien...can you answer this?

I am wondering the same thing....

 

[funeral979]

Im not really sure why people are questioning Aliens motives. He just wanted his question answered....whats the big deal?

What is wrong with presenting a topic to discuss on the forum? At least this is something different to discuss.

Anyways....anyone who has just casually played either of these slots can tell that they are exactly the same. I cannot see how anyone could make the statement that they are "completely different".

The only difference to me is that (and this is just MY opinion based on MY personal experience) the features on Isis tend to pay much better than Tut.

I guess it can be considered odd in that 3Dice is TOTALLY unique in so many areas, except for this glaring clone of a MG slot.

Nothing really wrong with it I suppose, but it makes for great debate.

Carry on!

 

[just play]

Im not really sure why people are questioning Aliens motives. He just wanted his question answered....whats the big deal?

What is wrong with presenting a topic to discuss on the forum? At least this is something different to discuss.

Anyways....anyone who has just casually played either of these slots can tell that they are exactly the same. I cannot see how anyone could make the statement that they are "completely different".

The only difference to me is that (and this is just MY opinion based on MY personal experience) the features on Isis tend to pay much better than Tut.

I guess it can be considered odd in that 3Dice is TOTALLY unique in so many areas, except for this glaring clone of a MG slot.

Nothing really wrong with it I suppose, but it makes for great debate.

Carry on!

Not sure if people are questioning his motives, at least I wasn't. I personally was wondering why it mattered. I am very naive about gambling still, I just deposit and spin, don't know much more than that.

So for me, I thought I was missing something.

Those are 2 games I never won on, when I was playing at 3Dice many people would talk about Tut, how great it was, how great it paid, but for me, never did squat...same for Isis, I read how great people win, again, I never did squat.

Alien, you said you were a "Geek", I don't think intelligent people are "Geeks", I now understand why you posted this after reading your last reply. Your a thinker and probably know the workings of slots and such, correct?


Weplant....he did answer me....

I'm sure it wont matter to most people.

I always thought 3Dice was unique and it was their own team who designed their games. But If they look at other softwares and copy those slots to their own software then that is not unique and the credit lies with Microgaming for creating the original.

 

[all4greed]

I'm happy I can play a MG like game!

 

[Nate]

Im not really sure why people are questioning Aliens motives. He just wanted his question answered....whats the big deal?

What is wrong with presenting a topic to discuss on the forum? At least this is something different to discuss.

An Alien,

I always suspected that they were the same, however in my experience I have always had much better results on Isis. Tut is a very likeable slot but if the paytables are an exact clone to Isis, well spotted.

I don't see this as a negative post but a question for someone who is informed on the design and the basis for everything being an exact clone.

Nate

 

[An_Alien]

I am wondering the same thing....

I did already answer

Like funeral mentioned I am just presenting the topic. I can't ask any questions unless 3Dice reply. I don't wish to speculate the reasons why 3Dice choose to release a Microgaming clone as their very first video slot.

Your a thinker and probably know the workings of slots and such, correct?

When I was 5 years old my parents bought me a rather expensive remote control army tank. I only played with it for 10 minutes then took it to my room and opened it up to try and work out how it operated . 20 years later I am still very much that same person.

I just have a keen interest in how businesses operate and what makes one flourish while another fails. I view 3Dice quite highly as they have good business ethics. This is why I thought they would be the first casino to say No to cloning games from other softwares and why I am interested to hear why they did infact make the decision to do so.

 

[3Dice]

Hi Guys,

When 3Dice first entered the market in late 2006, the software included exactly 2 slot games. After being told for years that nobody would even visit the website without ample affiliate marketing, we felt confident we could continue slot game development while taking the slow start route setting up and fine-tuning other aspects like support and banking.

It never really worked out to be a slow start though - even without marketing we soon started to feel the pressure for more slot games. With over 10 games on the design table, we had to pick a couple to prioritize, and with most of those designs (4 screen split bonus, skill style bonus games, ...) taking a risk in terms of customer appreciation (no way to be sure an idea like that is really appreciated until its in the field), we went for the safer path picking two designs that more closely aligned to customer expectations.

One of those designs was Happy Valley, with the key being a bonus selection where the player can go for the higher variance (high multiplier) versus the lower variance but slightly higher rtp (low multiplier, more spins). The other design chosen was Tut. The idea behind tut was to take the core design (i.e. paytable and game rules) from a popular slot and try to implement it in such a way that it would cater even closer to the expectations of the existing audience playing that slot. Isis is a great game, high variance, that really gets its 'zing' from the freespins. We've tried to capture that feeling, and by making the feature appear slightly less (less scatters on the reels), and adding in some extra wilds instead, we tried to provide in an even more exciting machine with more 'kick' potential than the original Isis.

The same paytable and rules still don't quite make for the same slot and the customer experience is governed just as much through the reel layout of the game. The real layout of tut is of our own design and has no resemblance to the reel layout of the MG Isis game.

Hope that gives you a little insight,

Enzo

 

[An_Alien]

Thanks Enzo Great reply! Certainly explains it well

 

[Rusty]

Hi Guys,

When 3Dice first entered the market in late 2006, the software included exactly 2 slot games. After being told for years that nobody would even visit the website without ample affiliate marketing, we felt confident we could continue slot game development while taking the slow start route setting up and fine-tuning other aspects like support and banking.

It never really worked out to be a slow start though - even without marketing we soon started to feel the pressure for more slot games. With over 10 games on the design table, we had to pick a couple to prioritize, and with most of those designs (4 screen split bonus, skill style bonus games, ...) taking a risk in terms of customer appreciation (no way to be sure an idea like that is really appreciated until its in the field), we went for the safer path picking two designs that more closely aligned to customer expectations.

One of those designs was Happy Valley, with the key being a bonus selection where the player can go for the higher variance (high multiplier) versus the lower variance but slightly higher rtp (low multiplier, more spins). The other design chosen was Tut. The idea behind tut was to take the core design (i.e. paytable and game rules) from a popular slot and try to implement it in such a way that it would cater even closer to the expectations of the existing audience playing that slot. Isis is a great game, high variance, that really gets its 'zing' from the freespins. We've tried to capture that feeling, and by making the feature appear slightly less (less scatters on the reels), and adding in some extra wilds instead, we tried to provide in an even more exciting machine with more 'kick' potential than the original Isis.

The same paytable and rules still don't quite make for the same slot and the customer experience is governed just as much through the reel layout of the game. The real layout of tut is of our own design and has no resemblance to the reel layout of the MG Isis game.

Hope that gives you a little insight,

Enzo

Thanks for that explanation Enzo which is perfectly acceptable ( to me at least I hope MG agree) but I am not sure how Tut reel layout can have no resemblance to the reel layout of Isis.

Must it not have a pretty close resemblance since the paytable is exactly the same which surely implies the probabilities of each win are the same and therefore the number of times each symbol is represented on each reel?

If the probabilities of each win are different then that obviously begs the question, why is the paytable the same?

Do you mean that just the order of the symbols on the reel has no resemblance?

Also since MG have different reel layouts for freespins and this has an important bearing on RTP has this aspect been incorporated into Tut as well?

Finally is the RTP of the two games the same?

Thanks in advance.

 

[KasinoKing]

I would like to know why they choose to copy a slot from a rival software rather than create their own.

You said Rival - but we all know you meant MG!
Well spotted on comparing these two slots!

The only difference to me is that (and this is just MY opinion based on MY personal experience) the features on Isis tend to pay much better than Tut.

Funny, mine is the opposite; I've found the feature easier to hit on Tut - not that I've played either version that much...

Also since MG have different reel layouts for freespins and this has an important bearing on RTP has this aspect been incorporated into Tut as well?

Where did you get that bit of info from?
I thought the free-spin reels were the same as normal spins on Isis.

LL