32RED downgrades TAB/SE

[Harry_BKK]

The question remains if they really are problem gamblers though.

Just look at this thread. Several, you included, SE'd from 32Red.
You will be listed as problem gamblers in their report, and you won't open your accounts again.

I have stated that i have closed my account with 32RED. Small difference, big impact

It should not matter though, SE was the first tool introduced to try and curb the rising problems with gambling addiction and i am sure 1000's if not 100.000's are today thankful that the tool was there as otherwise their lives might have become unrecoverable.

Whether that includes a certain percentage of people doing a SE for other reasons is not really relevant.

 

[mac72]

LOBBY UKGC??

I have an idea.

There are many with differing opinions on this thread but one thing appears to stand out and that is a majority (i think) believe that regardless of the operator the correct procedure for executing a TAB should be instant. Could we not turn this thread into something with real purpose and lobby the UKGC to change the wording of the legislation to reflect that? As someone else mentioned a lot of their procedures don't seem to be correctly thought out and as with all things new need fine tuning to close any loopholes?
We as a community should be reflective of the gambling community at large so instead of bashing 32red (or anyone else for that matter) for working within the current guidelines should we not make our feelings heard and ask that the guidelines be changed to reflect what i think anyway was their initial purpose?
If we were able to achieve that and it stopped even one Mr X swinging in the garage wouldn't we have achieved something worthwhile?
If your interested in that, I (or Bryan/Maxd or anyone else for that matter) could draft a strongly worded letter to the UKGC which all members could copy and email themselves to the UKGC and we could see if that people power could influence them? There are nearly 20,000 views of this thread in a matter of days so if you like that idea please make your feelings known by either liking this post or adding your views to the thread (or both).If you are a lurker and haven't yet signed up to Casinomeister and you feel strongly on this subject why not join now (its free) and make your feelings heard.
If i've read the situation wrong and the rest of you aren't interested that will be quickly apparent however there is no point moaning about something when you have the ability to do something about it and don't.

It would also level the playing field for all operators,as some have instant TAB at the moment and maybe feel the effects of that more than those that put people through hoops to TAB.The big danger in that i suppose may even be now the loophole has been highlighted by this thread some of those may also decide to "downgrade" their procedures.We just might be in a position to stop that???

 

[Harry_BKK]

I have an idea.

There are many with differing opinions on this thread but one thing appears to stand out and that is a majority (i think) believe that regardless of the operator the correct procedure for executing a TAB should be instant. Could we not turn this thread into something with real purpose and lobby the UKGC to change the wording of the legislation to reflect that? As someone else mentioned a lot of their procedures don't seem to be correctly thought out and as with all things new need fine tuning to close any loopholes?
We as a community should be reflective of the gambling community at large so instead of bashing 32red (or anyone else for that matter) for working within the current guidelines should we not make our feelings heard and ask that the guidelines be changed to reflect what i think anyway was their initial purpose?
If we were able to achieve that and it stopped even one Mr X swinging in the garage wouldn't we have achieved something worthwhile?
If your interested in that, I (or Bryan/Maxd or anyone else for that matter) could draft a strongly worded letter to the UKGC which all members could copy and email themselves to the UKGC and we could see if that people power could influence them? There are nearly 20,000 views of this thread in a matter of days so if you like that idea please make your feelings known by either liking this post or adding your views to the thread (or both).If you are a lurker and haven't yet signed up to Casinomeister and you feel strongly on this subject why not join now (its free) and make your feelings heard.
If i've read the situation wrong and the rest of you aren't interested that will be quickly apparent however there is no point moaning about something when you have the ability to do something about it and don't.

It would also level the playing field for all operators,as some have instant TAB at the moment and maybe feel the effects of that more than those that put people through hoops to TAB.The big danger in that i suppose may even be now the loophole has been highlighted by this thread some of those may also decide to "downgrade" their procedures.We just might be in a position to stop that???

Very good idea mac72

If i may suggest i would include in the letter the following:

1. TAB/SE are a vital part of RG (in addition to Deposit/Loss Limits, Session Reminders etc) and the player should be in control of these (meaning online available and instant) and not leave him at the mercy and speediness of the casino
2. TAB - Re-word SR paragraph 3.3.4 to ensure the process is automated, accessible via remote communication and can be activated by the player without any interference/communication of/with the casino operator
3. SE - SR paragraph 3.5.3, item 8 clearly states already that effective 31st Oct 2015: "Customers must be given the opportunity to self-exclude by contacting customer services and in addition by entering an automated process using remote communication.".

- maybe we can suggest to word it even stronger whereas it would state that the player can do it completely himself, no forms, no emails
- we should also put a list together of those casinos who don't offer the "automated process" and hand it over to the UKGC to take action as they deem appropriate
> confirmed operators not offering it: 32RED, Everymatrix

4. Include the Videoslots user interface for RG as a best example - all controls available in the players profile and can be self-set at any time by the player without any interference/communication by/with the casino operator.

I am pretty sure MG developed and embedded the RG interface, including the TAB/SE facility, specifically for the UKGC regulation changes coming into effect on 31st Oct 2015. Why else would they spend money and do the work if it is not required?

 

[mac72]

Dear All,

Firstly apologies for the time taken to reply to the thread. It was a long Bank Holiday, as Max mentioned, and I also wanted to ensure we had addressed some of the issues highlighted before commenting.

First and foremost I want to state that 32Red are committed to responsible gambling. Yes, we have made some changes to procedures surrounding the closure of accounts, but by no means are these to the detriment of player protection. We are proud to be licensed in Gibraltar, Italy and the UK and always strive to operate in a manner that is compliant with the responsibilities placed upon us.

We constantly review all aspects of our operating procedures and it was evident that our approach to Self-Exclusion needed to revert to it being a more considered and deliberate action on the part of the player. Unfortunately the existing Self Exclusion facility couldn’t be adapted, so we took the decision to reintroduce our previous process, making it available from within the gaming software and without the need to interact with anybody here in order to complete the process.

When the above change was made, we noticed that the automated Take a Break option was also no longer available, as it was part of the same application. We hadn’t realised this and had to make some fairly quick changes to ensure we could still deal with these requests in the timely manner they deserve. A dedicated email was set up (which is given top priority in the queuing system that sits behind the Help Centre) and the pages amended accordingly.

This thread has highlighted a couple of areas where we could improve this process, we have addressed some of those:

- We have now introduced a dedicated line for players who want to discuss their responsible gaming options. Our trained staff will be monitoring this line 24/7 and will be able to offer players instant changes based on their requirements.
- It was highlighted that an email link doesn’t always work if a player doesn’t have an email client installed. We have now amended this step to show the dedicated email address to enable someone using a web-based client to copy and paste it.

For those concerned about the time taken for an email to be processed, I am able to share with you that the shortest break requested over the busy Bank Holiday weekend was for 1 week – this was actioned within 19 minutes of the request being received.

It is important to remember that Take a Break is a facility that is designed to offer individuals a break so as to control their gaming and is not there, as is implied in some of the posts, as a means to protect a withdrawal from being reversed. If there are players who really can't control themselves when they are in that position, then they should contact me to see if there any alternatives available rather than using a function designed for something else. Also, regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended.

Finally (sorry for the long post), the video showing the steps to live chat in the Viper software highlighted a rather unfriendly player journey which has also been addressed. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Regards,

Mark

I honestly don't know how the below answers the question??



Re: 32red downgrading rg
Hi Mac72,

Our public response on this matter has been posted, if you want to share what I have told you, please feel free.

Mark

Quote Originally Posted by mac72
would you mind responding to the post instead of the pm if thats ok?



Quote Originally Posted by Mark_32Red
That’s correct mac72, should we receive a plausible explanation based on our interaction then we wouldn’t take any action.
Use of this facility is one of many indicators that we track for possible interaction.


Quote Originally Posted by mac72
mark could i get a response to this post please:

I also would like an answer from mark on the abuse issue of the TAB for this reason: i used it quite a bit especially at weekends and during the week if i hit big to avoid being tempted to reverse/annoyance at the long withdrawal periods (i actually only discovered it because triliej posted about it) and i promoted its use to many other forum members (harry etc.) for the exact same reason. I don't believe there was anything whatsoever wrong in doing what we were doing but mark's post says different and i'd like clarification on that.Its not good enough just because a certain piece of legislation works against them for a Company to say the use of it is an abuse and i really don't like the inference from 32red that " regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended." I would take that as nearly trying to frighten people from using it as they may end up forced down the SE route. If i was using it consistently and anyone "intervened" i'd simply point out that while i wait on my withdrawal i'm not playing anymore and i don't see that as a problem.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I honestly don't know how the below answers the question??

Re: 32red downgrading rg
Hi Mac72,

Our public response on this matter has been posted, if you want to share what I have told you, please feel free.

Mark

Quote Originally Posted by mac72
would you mind responding to the post instead of the pm if thats ok?

Quote Originally Posted by Mark_32Red
That’s correct mac72, should we receive a plausible explanation based on our interaction then we wouldn’t take any action.
Use of this facility is one of many indicators that we track for possible interaction.


Quote Originally Posted by mac72
mark could i get a response to this post please:
I don't believe there was anything whatsoever wrong in doing what we were doing but mark's post says different and i'd like clarification on that.Its not good enough just because a certain piece of legislation works against them for a Company to say the use of it is an abuse and i really don't like the inference from 32red that " regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended."

Red Tape, Smoke and Mirrors mac72.

Tracked are among others:

- Average session time
- Deposit patterns and changes to them
- Significant changes in betting patterns
- Amount and reasons for comp requests
- Deposit/Session limits
- Tone and vocabulary used in the chat (chat reps will make a notice on the account)
- ....list by far not complete.

and as per Mark's statement the frequency in using the TAB feature.

However, in our view using the TAB feature = RESPONSIBLE GAMING (e.g. protecting a withdrawal from being reversed and lost) and in 32RED's view it seems to be seen more like an indicator for gambling problems, how they come to that conclusion is not comprehensible to me.

E.G. a player wants to play only once/week and activates the TAB to avoid being drawn back to play again, hence he is using it, quote 32RED: "as intended" yet because of the frequency they potentially classify him as a problem gambler. Go figure

I can only say from my own experience that in the past 19odd years of online gaming i have most certainly displayed a few times typical behavior of a problem gamblers (endless sessions, thousands or even in excess of 10K in deposits in a few hours (yes, at 32RED), repeated requests for comps to extend the session, etc etc) and not once, NOT A SINGLE TIME, did i get the honor to have an "INTERACTION" from any of the casinos i played at, nor was i asked by the LiveChat agent whether i am OK or recommending me to take a break after reviewing my account for some comps and seeing the huge amount i deposited and the time i was already playing.

Hence my conclusion is that the threshold for the "interaction" to kick in must be veeery high and a few TAB's a month would certainly not trigger that threshold.

 

[dunover]

I honestly don't know how the below answers the question??



Re: 32red downgrading rg
Hi Mac72,

Our public response on this matter has been posted, if you want to share what I have told you, please feel free.

Mark

Quote Originally Posted by mac72
would you mind responding to the post instead of the pm if thats ok?



Quote Originally Posted by Mark_32Red
That’s correct mac72, should we receive a plausible explanation based on our interaction then we wouldn’t take any action.
Use of this facility is one of many indicators that we track for possible interaction.


Quote Originally Posted by mac72
mark could i get a response to this post please:

I also would like an answer from mark on the abuse issue of the TAB for this reason: i used it quite a bit especially at weekends and during the week if i hit big to avoid being tempted to reverse/annoyance at the long withdrawal periods (i actually only discovered it because triliej posted about it) and i promoted its use to many other forum members (harry etc.) for the exact same reason. I don't believe there was anything whatsoever wrong in doing what we were doing but mark's post says different and i'd like clarification on that.Its not good enough just because a certain piece of legislation works against them for a Company to say the use of it is an abuse and i really don't like the inference from 32red that " regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended." I would take that as nearly trying to frighten people from using it as they may end up forced down the SE route. If i was using it consistently and anyone "intervened" i'd simply point out that while i wait on my withdrawal i'm not playing anymore and i don't see that as a problem.

The answer is not forthcoming because basically they would be committing commercial suicide by stating it:

"We have identified that it's likely (but not necessarily) to be weaker-willed winners that would, and indeed do, use the TAB to circumvent a long pending period at weekends especially. This means the pending withdrawal(s) must be paid in full as the processing period falls inside of the player's TAB. Luckily we have discovered that it may not be necessary to provide instant player-set RG tools. Therefore to ensure we retrieve a decent proportion of our pending withdrawals back and increase average player rake, the instant self-set RG tools have been removed. We believe it likely that faced with this, a player may be put-off using TAB to ensure we pay his withdrawal when realizing their actions cannot be instantaneous. Should they still wish to proceed, then providing the impatient winner with a delayed and lengthy process will give them time to reconsider their course of action.

Publicly we can justify this policy under the premise that regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour despite the fact the player is trying to be responsible by using TAB and therefore by inhibiting the player's attempt to avoid 'problematic behaviour' we are actually assisting that very behaviour in many cases! This, however, increases profits and that is its purpose, as have been previous policy revisions regarding withdrawals."

 

[gagamel]

I don`t want to discuss SE or TAB.

Most casinos make it like this:

Me: I want to SE/TAB

CS: Thank you very much for contacting CS. Your SE is activated from now/ your TAB is activated for 2 weeks. It was a pleasure to assist you. Have a good day.

When 32red need more than 2 days to send me an email that my account is closed now and I can reopen it with a little chat I believe there is something wrong.

Close my account when I want it to be closed, OK?

 

[petro]

Sorry about the late post, I had to wait an extended time to close all my accounts.

I think if I wrote down everything I wanted to say, it would take a full page so I'll try and keep it brief.

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention Harry_BKK. I think you're a forum VIP.

I have requested that my 32Red account be closed, i can't support a casino that treat their customers like this.

Thanks Blathaon, that's exactly how I feel as well.



People are naturally emotional when it comes to problem gamblers and because of that there's a tendency to become irrational. And when people become irrational they run the risk of doing more harm than good. So it pays to be careful on the topic of problem gamblers.

Some people might say: As long as 32Red are within the current laws then it's okay.
I would argue that sometimes the laws are not entirely correct or complete and this is one of those times.
A recent example came from Germany; the laws surrounding rape were reviewed and it was found that men could sexually assault women as long as they left no marks or bruises. (Angela Merkel wouldn't be introducing new legislation if she didn't think there was a problem with the existing laws.)
Because of this; going solely on laws is not correct, sometimes people's common sense should be used instead.
I think there should be legislation made to stop casinos from rolling back/changing how their SE system works if it's going to be to the detriment of problem gamblers.

For what good it will do, I've contacted the UKGC and reported 32Red to them.
I told them that while I believe this casino is still compliant with the law, they've been caught red handed going out of their way to harm problem gamblers. And I listed off the evidence, the main points being; a lack of a good explanation (How could you explain away something like that?) and a clear profit driven motive. I asked the UKGC to at least watch 32Red closely.

About the point of consumption tax being the cause.
I don't think that's true and can give a couple of reasons for that:
If you would believe what Ed Ware has to say, the tax is actually benefiting them. One of the reasons he gives is that competitors have left the market.
A leopard doesn't change its spots. I don't believe that 32Red "suddenly decided" to start taking advantage of problem gamblers.
If you keep doing something, eventually people will find out and I think that's what happened.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Thanks Petro for bringing up the thread again and for talking to the UKGC.

Just as you, I think 32RED has not given any answers whatsoever to the issues raised and have not announced any changes either, which is pretty sad, to be honest.

While they probably think that all is compliant with the current legislation, morally it is certainly not when they try to benefit financially from the weakest players. Whereas the UKGC tried to put the control of the RG features into the hands of the player, 32RED took that to the best part away again.

Section 3.5.3, Paragraph 8, which came into effect on 31OCT 2015, states clearly:

Customers must be given the opportunity to self-exclude by contacting customer services and in addition by entering an automated process using remote communication.

It says "AND" not "OR". What part did 32RED interpret in any other way, that they think the automated process activated by the player is not needed???

For a few months 32RED had the automated process for TAB and SE available in the MG Viper client, an upgrade MG supplied to all its customers last year, but 32RED removed that, in my view with a clear purpose. They are now in full control when exactly a TAB or SE will be activated and not the player as the UKGC stipulates. And be it just a delay of a few hours or days, it leaves the player in question vulnerable to lose even more, which 32RED seems to be very happy to put in their pockets.

To come then to the CM forum and post statements like - "these changes are not to the detriment of the player" or "the TAB function is not to protect a withdrawal while it is pending" - shows utter and complete ignorance in regards to RG.

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

 

[Tirilej]

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

This part I just have to reply to because now you're going too far!

Yes, players should be able to control themselves. If they can't they either should find ways to gamble in a controlled way, or stop gambling.
This thread is about a button that was removed, and instead people will have to send an email to get their accounts closed for 24 hours.
It's not the button, or a lack of it that are making people gambling addicts. How did they survive before the button got there?

I've seen and heard and helped gamblers that have lost everything, and families where the gambler have commited suicide. I know and have suffered everything that can happen when dealing with an addict whether it's gambling or other things. I still say the same thing.

We usually say that most addicts will have to reach his bottom before he will realize he is an addict and do something about it. A button/email/24 hours or not will not do much difference. If people don't like it then they will do like you and close the account. That is fine and the way it should be dealt with.

 

[Jono777]

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

My post is more of a clarification (with a pang of paranoia ) post rather than anything else.

I hold my hands up I for one am guilty of leaping to the defence of the casino in question and yes sometimes without seeing the 'Big Picture' - Guilty as charged, I hold my hands up.

However just to clarify, my previous point regarding Self Control/restraint, gambling beyond means was not describing the worst case scenario you describe above mate, believe me I've see close friends go down the 'out of control' route, not nice and would not wish it on anyone.

I was referring to those players who cannot hold off for 24 hours (yes, longer on weekends) but did NOT have a serious gambling problem but WERE using the reduction/removal of SE/RG/TAB options as an excuse or scapegoat for their actions at that particular time.

Those with a proper gambling problem then yes I am with you all the way every time, agree with every word you've typed!

Those who reverse and blow their withdrawal and then start screaming 'I wouldn't have lost that if I could have TAB etc' then sorry little sympathy.

Hope this makes sense, in summary I am now in agreement with 90% of this thread as a whole but have no time for those who 'Cry Wolf'

 

[dunover]

This part I just have to reply to because now you're going too far!

Yes, players should be able to control themselves. If they can't they either should find ways to gamble in a controlled way, or stop gambling.
This thread is about a button that was removed, and instead people will have to send an email to get their accounts closed for 24 hours.
It's not the button, or a lack of it that are making people gambling addicts. How did they survive before the button got there?

I've seen and heard and helped gamblers that have lost everything, and families where the gambler have commited suicide. I know and have suffered everything that can happen when dealing with an addict whether it's gambling or other things. I still say the same thing.

We usually say that most addicts will have to reach his bottom before he will realize he is an addict and do something about it. A button/email/24 hours or not will not do much difference. If people don't like it then they will do like you and close the account. That is fine and the way it should be dealt with.

Of course it will make a major difference in some cases. Imagine the 'addict' has got lucky, has won enough to sort some issues out, wants to quit on a big win? Then tries to safeguard it and feels the disillusionment of not being able to take a RG measure. Maybe it won't make a huge difference in the long run to the individual but, and this is very important, it cannot do any harm as regards that individual and that casino can it?

Unfortunately addicts are profitable for casinos, and it's all about money. What better profit-maker than a player depositing hundreds/thousands, then making a withdrawal of a similar amount in profit and then being a likely reverser is unable to make an instant RG choice to safeguard that withdrawal??

Removing (or 'downgrading' as the thread has been retitled!) RG measures can be the difference between a borderline problem gambler becoming one.

I'll say it again, the ONLY reason this measure was taken was to ensure or maintain the proportion of withdrawals being reversed, after players cracked-on that they could ring-fence them by a 48hr. TAB. Therefore the only people affected by it will be either problem gamblers, or borderline ones. For a casino to actively pursue those, well....

I think many of us have made our feelings plain as regards the ethics of this measure, to actively seek a loophole or failure in the UKGC regulations to inhibit a RG tool.

 

[nutnut]

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

Sorry but i find this absolute ridiculous and insulting to read. This comment makes you seem like you have a agenda with 32red, how about grown adults take some response ability?

It is not on the rest of the planet to baby sit and spoon feed every adult who has addiction issues, and you trying to pull on the emotional strings is a new low for this thread. The only person who needs to meet the families affected is the person who put his family in the situation in which they lost their house and livelihood.

 

[dunover]

Sorry but i find this absolute ridiculous and insulting to read. This comment makes you seem like you have a agenda with 32red, how about grown adults take some response ability?

It is not on the rest of the planet to baby sit and spoon feed every adult who has addiction issues, and you trying to pull on the emotional strings is a new low for this thread. The only person who needs to meet the families affected is the person who put his family in the situation in which they lost their house and livelihood.

It's not the responsibility for us to look after the handicapped, the mentally ill, the sick or the unemployed is it? It's not the responsibility of us to house refugees, or provide health care for the clinically obese or make people wear seat belts, is it? But whether you like it or not we do, as a caring society.

 

[Tirilej]

It's not the responsibility for us to look after the handicapped, the mentally ill, the sick or the unemployed is it? It's not the responsibility of us to house refugees, or provide health care for the clinically obese or make people wear seat belts, is it? But whether you like it or not we do, as a caring society.

When the addicts admit that he is sick or at least his behaviour is, then we can help him. We don't help him by letting him off ''because'' he is sick.
Don't take responsibility for someone who can take it themselves. Don't help him to continue.

 

[nutnut]

It's not the responsibility for us to look after the handicapped, the mentally ill, the sick or the unemployed is it? It's not the responsibility of us to house refugees, or provide health care for the clinically obese or make people wear seat belts, is it? But whether you like it or not we do, as a caring society.

But they all play no part to what the issue in this thread is, the comparison is wrong. But lets take your seat belt one, it is their to protect you, it's the law to use it, but if you choose not to use it, it is YOUR fault. Not the car maker, or because someone never put it on for you.

If you have a gambling problem, seek help. It's is not on 32red to babysit the addicts or any casino. They provide a legal facility to self exclude, if player uses it's his choice.

 

[Harry_BKK]

This part I just have to reply to because now you're going too far!

Why too far?? I stand by my words as it is the ugly truth of addiction.

- I have taken a number of people, men and women, and dragged them personally to the bank to lock their accounts/cancel debit/credit cards and then to the next GA group to get them started on their journey to recovery.
- I have also taken wives and kids to women shelters because the addicted husband/father was not just gambling it all away but had become violent as well.

This was all in the time where there were virtually no RG measures in place. There was not even the possibility available to TAB, let alone do a SE.

If you have seen my post with the history of RG (post #329) you will know that it took the first regulatory body, in this case the UKGC, some 14 years to implement player-controlled RG measures regarding TAB and SE. Yes the button was not there until the latest addition to the LCCP came into effect on 31st Oct 2015, at which point MG supplied every customer of its software with an upgrade that now allowed the player to TAB/SE himself, handing the control over to him.

32RED had this active for a few months, Dunover, mac72 and myself have used it, so it was clearly there.

Just before Easter 32RED decided to remove those 2 features from the self-set RG console, leaving only limits, time-out etc., asking now a player to print and complete a form, send it back to them and then wait and hope they will activate it immediately. We had reports in this thread that it took between 19 minutes and 2 days to get an answer from support that the request was actioned.

In that period a problem gambler can blow out the last money left that was maybe destined to pay part of the mortgage arrears or similar, putting him into even deeper trouble that he was anyway. It would be different if it can be done in a matter of seconds by the player himself.

A few hours can make a big difference!!!

And trust me, i have reported EveryMatrix to the UKGC as well as they don't offer "the automatic process by remote communication" either. What makes is worse with 32RED that they had it active for a few months, in my opinion then realized it is hurting their bottom line and decided to remove it.

 

[Harry_BKK]

My post is more of a clarification (with a pang of paranoia ) post rather than anything else.

I hold my hands up I for one am guilty of leaping to the defence of the casino in question and yes sometimes without seeing the 'Big Picture' - Guilty as charged, I hold my hands up.

However just to clarify, my previous point regarding Self Control/restraint, gambling beyond means was not describing the worst case scenario you describe above mate, believe me I've see close friends go down the 'out of control' route, not nice and would not wish it on anyone.

I was referring to those players who cannot hold off for 24 hours (yes, longer on weekends) but did NOT have a serious gambling problem but WERE using the reduction/removal of SE/RG/TAB options as an excuse or scapegoat for their actions at that particular time.

Those with a proper gambling problem then yes I am with you all the way every time, agree with every word you've typed!

Those who reverse and blow their withdrawal and then start screaming 'I wouldn't have lost that if I could have TAB etc' then sorry little sympathy.

Hope this makes sense, in summary I am now in agreement with 90% of this thread as a whole but have no time for those who 'Cry Wolf'

Cheers mate, i might be to sensitive on this RG issue but trust me, i have seen the ugly, the bad and the really ugly bad part of what casino operators like to call "entertainment" or "recreational gaming" but is clearly a problem for many players.

The TAB is not even that serious, on the other hand the SE is a very serious issue. Players who have come to that point are clearly in big trouble already and to make them go through hoops and hurdles to get protection is just not right.

 

[Tirilej]

The worst for a gambling addict is actually to win a huge amount because that means he won't stop.
The win will keep him floating for a while but usually it just makes thing worse.

So no, I don't buy that reason either.

Good to hear that you reported EM too then because this seemed a little like your agenda against 32Red had grown too big.

 

[paul7388]

Why too far?? I stand by my words as it is the ugly truth of addiction.

- I have taken a number of people, men and women, and dragged them personally to the bank to lock their accounts/cancel debit/credit cards and then to the next GA group to get them started on their journey to recovery.
- I have also taken wives and kids to women shelters because the addicted husband/father was not just gambling it all away but had become violent as well.

This was all in the time where there were virtually no RG measures in place. There was not even the possibility available to TAB, let alone do a SE.

If you have seen my post with the history of RG (post #329) you will know that it took the first regulatory body, in this case the UKGC, some 14 years to implement player-controlled RG measures regarding TAB and SE. Yes the button was not there until the latest addition to the LCCP came into effect on 31st Oct 2015, at which point MG supplied every customer of its software with an upgrade that now allowed the player to TAB/SE himself, handing the control over to him.

32RED had this active for a few months, Dunover, mac72 and myself have used it, so it was clearly there.

Just before Easter 32RED decided to remove those 2 features from the self-set RG console, leaving only limits, time-out etc., asking now a player to print and complete a form, send it back to them and then wait and hope they will activate it immediately. We had reports in this thread that it took between 19 minutes and 2 days to get an answer from support that the request was actioned.

In that period a problem gambler can blow out the last money left that was maybe destined to pay part of the mortgage arrears or similar, putting him into even deeper trouble that he was anyway. It would be different if it can be done in a matter of seconds by the player himself.

A few hours can make a big difference!!!

And trust me, i have reported EveryMatrix to the UKGC as well as they don't offer "the automatic process by remote communication" either. What makes is worse with 32RED that they had it active for a few months, in my opinion then realized it is hurting their bottom line and decided to remove it.

I know what you are saying Harry and I agree with most of it.

But if 32RED instantly excluded the player it will make no difference to a real problem gambler. within minutes he would be trawling the net to find a casino he could sign up to and deposit at. Unless he installed something like gamblock on his computers then an instant exclusion wont really help an addict much.

But seriously I know 32RED removed the button and I don't agree with it either.

But as has already been mentioned other casinos operate the same exclusion policy but I don't see a 40 page thread about them. Many valid points in this thread but unfortunately its the same members posting that do in every 32RED thread.

Some comment on threads about other casinos but not to the extent a 32RED thread brings them out of hibernation.

Sorry but it is clear that some members have a personal agenda to slate 32RED at every chance they can get.

But final point. If someone desperately needed there account closed why email. phone the damned phone number, explain and get account closed on the spot. Even if the number costs money from some countries it would be worth it.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Sorry but i find this absolute ridiculous and insulting to read. This comment makes you seem like you have a agenda with 32red, how about grown adults take some response ability?

It is not on the rest of the planet to baby sit and spoon feed every adult who has addiction issues, and you trying to pull on the emotional strings is a new low for this thread. The only person who needs to meet the families affected is the person who put his family in the situation in which they lost their house and livelihood.

Why an insult? Why should i have an agenda???

I reported EM to the UKGC just as well. It took years to implement some decent RG measures and 32RED decides to "degrade" them. And you can be sure that all those years there was plenty of lobbying from the gaming operators against those RG measures.

Easy to talk when you are not affected. I recommend you visit once a GA meeting to hear the stories and see for yourself what gambling can do to people.

Surely, at the end of the day, an adult is responsible for himself but at some point addiction will have taken over so much of his thinking/actions that "responsible for himself" is the last thing he can be. It is a sickness, just like cancer or anything else and needs treatment to get them back on the right track.

 

[nutnut]

Why an insult? Why should i have an agenda???

I reported EM to the UKGC just as well. It took years to implement some decent RG measures and 32RED decides to "degrade" them. And you can be sure that all those years there was plenty of lobbying from the gaming operators against those RG measures.

Easy to talk when you are not affected. I recommend you visit once a GA meeting to hear the stories and see for yourself what gambling can do to people.

Surely, at the end of the day, an adult is responsible for himself but at some point addiction will have taken over so much of his thinking/actions that "responsible for himself" is the last thing he can be. It is a sickness, just like cancer or anything else and needs treatment to get them back on the right track.

Your last point is correct, but again this has nothing to do with 32red, lets make it clear the casino industry is pure filth, they all operate to take your money my money and every last penny that exists from our accounts. Some might do it with a smile and good customer service but videoslots, 32red or ANY casino all have same morals deep down.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I know what you are saying Harry and I agree with most of it.

But if 32RED instantly excluded the player it will make no difference to a real problem gambler. within minutes he would be trawling the net to find a casino he could sign up to and deposit at. Unless he installed something like gamblock on his computers then an instant exclusion wont really help an addict much.

But seriously I know 32RED removed the button and I don't agree with it either.

But as has already been mentioned other casinos operate the same exclusion policy but I don't see a 40 page thread about them. Many valid points in this thread but unfortunately its the same members posting that do in every 32RED thread.

Some comment on threads about other casinos but not to the extent a 32RED thread brings them out of hibernation.

Sorry but it is clear that some members have a personal agenda to slate 32RED at every chance they can get.

But final point. If someone desperately needed there account closed why email. phone the damned phone number, explain and get account closed on the spot. Even if the number costs money from some countries it would be worth it.

Yes Paul, sure there are plenty of other sites where somebody can sign up and lose more.

But when a player has arrived at a point where he is ready to self-exclude for the reason of gambling problems he/she will do the SE at all registered places and then no casino should make it any harder then need be and have it activated instantly.

The UKGC has not added that one paragraph just for fun, it has a clear reason.

The difference between EM and 32RED is:

- EM never had the "automated process" in place - so they are guilty of negligence in that they did not implement the latest UKGC regulation
- 32RED had the "automated process" active and removed it again - that makes it in my view even worse.

Even when you phone 32RED they will send you the form. On the website 32RED states clearly that the SE will only be activated after they received the signed form. Hence, it makes no difference if you phone them up.

 

[nutnut]

I have a friend who is gambling addict.

He is self excluded most places, banned from betting shops in his area. But he still signs up and gambles in weird new places and has charged back at casinos. He also won several jackpots or several thousand and gambled it all back.

At what point does he become a piss taking pain in the arse?

 

[paul7388]

Yes Paul, sure there are plenty of other sites where somebody can sign up and lose more.

But when a player has arrived at a point where he is ready to self-exclude for the reason of gambling problems he/she will do the SE at all registered places and then no casino should make it any harder then need be and have it activated instantly.

The UKGC has not added that one paragraph just for fun, it has a clear reason.

The difference between EM and 32RED is:

- EM never had the "automated process" in place - so they are guilty of negligence in that they did not implement the latest UKGC regulation
- 32RED had the "automated process" active and removed it again - that makes it in my view even worse.

Even when you phone 32RED they will send you the form. On the website 32RED states clearly that the SE will only be activated after they received the signed form. Hence, it makes no difference if you phone them up.

Sorry Harry if you phone them explain the situation then they will close account . I can assure you if I phoned them up and told them I had an addiction and they had to close my account right there and then as I was going to spend every penny I had and couldn't stop themselves they would close it.

They would have no choice but to do it. Maybe they would say you still needed to complete a self exclusion form but they would apply TAB on the spot for 6 weeks if you asked which gives plenty time to SE officially.

Tells you in their terms to phone and get TAB right away.

Should you wish to suspend your account(s) under the Take a Break option call us on Freephone 0800 018 3904 (+44 (0)203 589 4560 from outside the UK) or, if you prefer, email [email protected] with your request. We will need to know your username and the length of Take a Break required (24 hours, 48 hours, 1, 2, 3 or 4 weeks, up to the maximum of 6 weeks only).

And really fact it tells you you can Apply TAB right away by phoning them makes these 40 pages a sham.

Ok theres no button but if someones that desperate then 10 minutes on the phone is worth it. If they cant be arsed phoning or its too much hassle then sorry but I have no sympathy at all for them.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Your last point is correct, but again this has nothing to do with 32red, lets make it clear the casino industry is pure filth, they all operate to take your money my money and every last penny that exists from our accounts. Some might do it with a smile and good customer service but videoslots, 32red or ANY casino all have same morals deep down.

Absolutely agree.

For casino operators RG is an evil the Gambling Commissions or other regulatory bodies forced onto them, and that evil has become bigger in the past years since more regulation has been put in place for online gaming.

However, e.g. Videoslots leaves the player in complete control (see my post #132). Everything can be activated by the player at any time without any interaction with the casino support whatsoever. That means the RG features are 100% controlled by the player and that is how it should be.

This is what 32RED had as well and decided to remove/degrade. That is the main point of this thread.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Sorry Harry if you phone them explain the situation then they will close account . I can assure you if I phoned them up and told them I had an addiction and they had to close my account right there and then as I was going to spend every penny I had and couldn't stop themselves they would close it.

They would have no choice but to do it. Maybe they would say you still needed to complete a self exclusion form but they would apply TAB on the spot for 6 weeks if you asked which gives plenty time to SE officially.

Tells you in their terms to phone and get TAB right away.

Should you wish to suspend your account(s) under the Take a Break option call us on Freephone 0800 018 3904 (+44 (0)203 589 4560 from outside the UK) or, if you prefer, email [email protected] with your request. We will need to know your username and the length of Take a Break required (24 hours, 48 hours, 1, 2, 3 or 4 weeks, up to the maximum of 6 weeks only).

Understand your point and probably the TAB will be done as a temporary measure. However, it still means the account is locked for a max. 6 weeks after which it will be opened automatically again. Whether the addicted gambler will return that completed form later is rather not very sure.

It just not understandable why 32RED does not allow the player to have full control over those RG measures.

Should a player read only the section for SE it looks like the screenshot below and it does not mention that it can be done instantly:

 

[paul7388]

But Harry that's what we mean by the addict has to take responsibility for their actions.

If they are in that much a mess 6 weeks is more than enough time to make sure they can no longer use the site. If they cant take necessary actions to help themselves within 6 weeks then sorry ive no sympathy. That shows they are not ready to help themselves and SEs will only paper over the cracks and they will gamble somewhere.

Also this thread was also about how 32RED had took away TAB button and now you had to wait maybe hours before taking a break and especially at easter weekend with longer pending it was so irresponsible.

Sorry anyone that really needed to TAB would have read all the terms to find out how. Again if they couldn't be bothered phoning then that's their fault. Maybe no instant button but a short phone calls not that much hassle. If they cant do it then sorry that's their fault.

But like I said TAB is only minutes away for anyone that really needs it. So I really think these near 40 pages are over the top. Yes hey shouldn't have removed the button from webpage but theres still a near instant solution. It again comes down to gamblers taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If the UKGC decided that we were all adults and should police our own behaviour, then they would have issued no regulations about RG at all. However, the government has decided that we need to be "nannied" by the state, and that the UKGC must ensure that there are regulations requiring operators to implement the specified level of "nannying". It's not for operators to pick and choose which of these regulations to apply, nor state how players should and should not use the RG facilities.

If a player feels that they need the TAB facility to help them over the weekend to prevent them from reversing their withdrawal, then it's not for the operator to say this is an incorrect use of the facility where it is the ONLY facility provided that can achieve the required aim.

If casinos feel that regular use of TAB to bolster will power over a long weekend is not correct usage, then they should provide an alternative facility specific to this purpose, like a "flush button", or even a lock on the withdrawal alone so that it cannot be reversed, but leaving the account open in other respects. Certainly, if they feel that over use of the formal TAB will force them to unnecessarily review players for "problem gambling", then an alternative facility will be good for them as it will get them out of this regulatory hole because TAB will no longer be getting used for this, the bespoke facility will instead.

If it turns out that there is a sound reason for repeated use of TAB to be related to the onset of problem gambling, then by removing the facility rather than monitoring usage, the regulations are being circumvented through the removal of a data source that would otherwise provide input that would force accounts to be reviewed for possible intervention.

Just because EveryMatrix don't offer RG measures from within the software, it doesn't mean that the UKGC approve this as a good enough means of implementing the RG measures. It could be that those casinos that drag their feet over implementation will end up with a nasty shock from the UKGC, such as a sanction being applied, which will generate adverse PR for the operator.

 

[Jasminebed]

I have so much I wish to say, and so many I multi-quoted, I can't address them all in a reasonable manner.

I no longer have the stats at hand, but a number of years back I asked a government body about problem gamblers, and I'm doing the best to my recollection. About 2% of gamblers, but 20% of gambling revenues derive from them.

The UKGC decided certain measures should be put in place should gamblers choose to use them.

I don't see that as a bad thing.

If you are outside the UKGC purview, you may not be included.

Gambling addicts, and addicts in general have lost control. And for the Take a Break facilities, there's a great option for those that walk the line. Sometimes we need a little off time to regain control.

I'm rather ashamed of how much I've lost since winning a lot of money, amounts inconceivable six months ago. Have did well at 32Red, but not so much at other providers.

I would hope that if I asked for help it was instant or near instant.

One of my real life friends, her mom gambles online weekly, for the past 8 or so years. Has never yet made a withdrawal, and has had five figure sums more than once.

But she still spends less than when she gambled B&M more regularly.

It's a bit of derail, but I had to go ask 32Red to credit a very small bonus today that should have been automatic. It should have been bonus funds AFAIK, but they gave me cash. I'm off to play that, i have no doubts that should I win I will be paid, worse case scenario, I'd have to complete wagering I expected.

I do think we hold 32Red to a higher standard, because they have shown a higher standard.

 

[Harry_BKK]

But Harry that's what we mean by the addict has to take responsibility for their actions.

If they are in that much a mess 6 weeks is more than enough time to make sure they can no longer use the site. If they cant take necessary actions to help themselves within 6 weeks then sorry ive no sympathy. That shows they are not ready to help themselves and SEs will only paper over the cracks and they will gamble somewhere.

Also this thread was also about how 32RED had took away TAB button and now you had to wait maybe hours before taking a break and especially at easter weekend with longer pending it was so irresponsible.

Sorry anyone that really needed to TAB would have read all the terms to find out how. Again if they couldn't be bothered phoning then that's their fault. Maybe no instant button but a short phone calls not that much hassle. If they cant do it then sorry that's their fault.

But like I said TAB is only minutes away for anyone that really needs it. So I really think these near 40 pages are over the top. Yes hey shouldn't have removed the button from webpage but theres still a near instant solution. It again comes down to gamblers taking responsibility for their own actions.

Paul i can only recommend to you as well to visit a GA meeting to hear how the road down to hell is littered with moments where help at the right time would have avoided the ultimate disaster.

I should maybe reveal at this moment in time that i did once a few years voluntary work for an organization that offered Addiction Support, be it drugs, alcohol, gambling or any other form of addiction. I was assigned to the Gambling section and have first hand experienced how bad it can become, hence my remark in an earlier post that i have seen the ugly, the bad and the really ugly bad. Probably prevented me from becoming a "problem gambler" myself.

One example:

- Husband is heavily addicted and regularly blows the paycheck (gamblers always find ways to get the money into their hands on pay day)
- Wive has 2 jobs to keep the family somehow afloat and the 2 kids fed, dressed and in school
- Obviously there will be plenty of arguments between the two
- At some point the husband has a bright moment (maybe at the point where the bank sends them the eviction order as the mortgage was not paid in 6 months) and agrees to SE at all casinos he has registered with and also for the wife to stand next to him to see him doing it.
- He starts, casino 1, casino 2, casino 3 etc etc - all done online and instantly the moment he is pressing that button
- Arrives at 32RED/EM: "oh bummer, can't do it online", sees the phone number and calls up.
- SE is not offered then and there on the phone and now he relies on the CS Agent to recommend him a TAB as a temporary measure, to make sure the account is blocked until he returns the form
- Let's say the CS agent does that and TAB's the account for 48hrs, which should be sufficient to sign and return the SE form
- Husband also hands over bank cards to the wife and at the bank he agrees that the wife will have the control over the joint account.
- They also walk into every B+M shop in the area and SE him, making sure he can't gamble any further at the bookies either
- Form from 32RED/EM arrives at some point via email, by this time the wife has left the PC and does housework
- Later she asks him whether he has returned the form, he says yes but hasn't.
- 48hrs later the 32RED/EM account is activated again as the TAB has expired
- Another day later is pay day and he gets his hands somehow on the pay check and blows it again at the only account which is still open - 32RED/EM
- Family loses the house and has to move out
- Now they are in real trouble as it will cost a hell lot of money to find a rental place, pay for the fees to the bank for selling the house etc etc.

You think this has not happened. I can assure you it has 1000's of times, be it as above or similar. I heard and seen plenty of cases in 6 years I did my voluntary work for that organization.

Now you will say: Oh he can open another account with a different casino. Sure he could, but with no bank cards and the 32RED/EM account readily available, we all know where he will go first. Would 32RED/EM allow instant SE it would take longer to register at a new place, get somehow cash into the casino account, maybe just enough time until the wife comes home from work to stop him from blowing that last cash which proves then to be the final nail in the coffin.

I have also dealt with plenty casino operators, well at that time it was more B&M than online operators but NOT A SINGLE ONE did really care a "iota" whether a player would blow the last penny from his pocket. Only rising or rather exploding numbers of problem gamblers called the governments on the plan to introduce regulation in regards to RG. 14 YEARS it has taken to finally have one GC putting a paragraph in place that the SE has to be offered by "automated process via remote communication" putting the first time ever the PLAYER IN DIRECT CONTROL...14 years Paul. Can you imagine how much casino operators resisted that introduction??? Technically it could have been done 14 years ago, no problem.

The soon it was in place, casino operators looked for loopholes to circumvent it and as it seems 32RED has found that loophole as otherwise they would not have removed the online self-set SE button to avoid being in breach of the UKGC regulation.

When I saw the first time the online TAB/SE features i nearly jumped for joy, finally seeing that the player can be 100% in control of his casino account. In my view an important part to prevent a borderline case even becoming a "problem gambler". Understandably, i was so totally disappointed to see 32RED removing it again.

Well, all our discussions here will be all hot air to them, nothing more, nothing less. However, i look forward to 2017 when the UKGC will introduce the central RG database where 1 SE will exclude you from every online casino. I sincerely hope it will get done as that is, with the ever growing number of online casinos, the only real option to help a problem gambler.

 

[dionysus]

- Husband is heavily addicted and regularly blows the paycheck (gamblers always find ways to get the money into their hands on pay day)
- Wive has 2 jobs to keep the family somehow afloat and the 2 kids fed, dressed and in school
- Obviously there will be plenty of arguments between the two
- At some point the husband has a bright moment (maybe at the point where the bank sends them the eviction order as the mortgage was not paid in 6 months) and agrees to SE at all casinos he has registered with and also for the wife to stand next to him to see him doing it.
- He starts, casino 1, casino 2, casino 3 etc etc - all done online and instantly the moment he is pressing that button
- Arrives at 32RED: "oh bummer, can't do it online", sees the phone number and calls up.
- SE is not offered then and there on the phone and now he relies on the CS Agent to recommend him a TAB as a temporary measure, to make sure the account is blocked until he returns the form
- Let's say the CS agent does that and TAB's the account for 48hrs, which should be sufficient to sign and return the SE form
- Husband also hands over bank cards to the wife and at the bank he agrees that the wife will have the control over the joint account.
- They also walk into every B+M shop in the area and SE him, making sure he can't gamble any further at the bookies either
- Form from 32RED arrives at some point via email, by this time the wife has left the PC and does housework
- Later she asks him whether he has returned the form, he says yes but hasn't.
- 48hrs later the 32RED account is activated again as the TAB has expired
- Another day later is pay day and he gets his hands somehow on the pay check and blows it again at the only account which is still open - 32RED
- Family loses the house and has to move out
- Now they are in real trouble as it will cost a hell lot of money to find a rental place, pay for the fees to the bank for selling the house etc etc.

oh for... the train well and truly gone off the rails with that hyperbolic example.
32Red is truly the scourge of the gambling addicts of the world, nay, humanity which is why Bryan who clearly has read this thread, and no doubt flagged to by max and Webcaz who have posted, has chucked them in the rogue pit for their executive decision here.

oh wait

maybe just a tad perspective?
We don't like their decision.
Ok, express your dissatisfaction, warn members, discuss it ad nauseum, close your acct. et c.
They're STILL an accredited casino who happens to have made unpopular choice by following the letter, if perhaps not the spirit, of the guidelines (yes, debatable). But that addict who in your example who runs to 32Red being 'the only account which is still open' can open any bloody acct on a whim and blow his load. Perspective: 32Red made an alteration and decision which is unpopular with possible negative consequences.
While you can argue they've made the exclusion harder - and I havent contested this - they havent denied it to players.

 

[sueyh]

Just chipping in my thought.

A few people mentioned there is not much a big difference between automated SE/TAB system and phone-email SE/TAB system. That might be true. It could be just 10 minutes difference.

But here is a thing. "Gambling addiction" is a very very very serious problem. It is not about people have some debt. It is not about people has to eat some cheap sausages instead of nice eye-fillet steak. "Gambling addiction" can DESTROY people's LIFE.

I do not call the casino that took back-step regarding to SE(even though, it is just 0.1cm back) a good casino.

As it mentioned by other people, I'm going to talk with my wallet. I never gonna deposit my money into the casino that does not understand the seriousness of this problem.

 

[hedgehok]

It's clearly a matter of perspective how fiercely you condemn the new TAB/SE facilities that 32red provides. Since 32red is publicly traded and needs to address the demands of their shareholders which is maximizing profits it's understandable that they only provide the minimum SE/TAB facilities necessary to comply with regulation by UKGC.

I can very much imagine that many employees including Mark and many affiliates like Bryan are gutted by these changes on a personal basis but accept them as long as they don't violate regulations.

I find it absolutely admirable Harry, how you fight for players rights and have the empathy to see not only some anonymous cash cows for the casinos but real people with real problems which are directly affected in a negative way by these changes. I also hope that 32red reevaluates their approach towards SE/TAB and not only sees the bottom line.

 

[gagamel]

The worst for a gambling addict is actually to win a huge amount because that means he won't stop.
The win will keep him floating for a while but usually it just makes thing worse.

So no, I don't buy that reason either.

Good to hear that you reported EM too then because this seemed a little like your agenda against 32Red had grown too big.

In my opinion the worst for an addicted player is to win big, ask for a SE immediately and then he has to hear, that it can take some days to make a decision by management. But feel free to play a little bit, it`s your choice dear player. And if you lose, well you have 26 deposit options to win it back.

I closed my account because of this bad behaviour. And as far as I can see a lot of long time members here don`t like this behaviour too. Harry just keeps his finger in the wound of a former top casino which is now in a downward spiral.

 

[dunover]

There are a few that aren't seeing the greater picture here. When I joined CM the casino was a 9.3 rated or thereabouts, with only a few others for company. Now they languish at 28th. (last time I looked) and they are only just in the top 30 due to some high-scoring sites like Sky Vegas and Ladyboys falling by the wayside by neglecting to maintain reps or an interest here.

The criticism levelled here would be justified against any accredited site that downgraded RG, whatever people think about the character of those using RG tools. Years back they were my favourite site, and all the plaudits on here were well deserved. Most people are offended by greed, and that's even the case in a business that is really about greed (ours to win and the casinos' to make money).

This thread is really about our perspective regarding 'acceptable greed'. We are talking about a business that has taken a succession of greed-based and rather contemptuous decisions about all of you who play there. The focus is on maximizing potential for winnings being reversed. Yes, unfortunately for context I need to mention the introduction of pending and subsequently removal of flushing. But to tamper with RG settings solely for the purpose of preventing players, and especially large winners, TAB-ing while their withdrawal lies pending from 1-3 or 4 days was for many of us the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. Not being a reverser for me is irrelevant - it's the principle about the ethics of it that made me and many others close accounts.

When a casino makes an active decision to apply the lowest possible level of RG protection when they know a player is at their weakest i.e. when they've just won and have the 'feel-good factor' is simply inexcusable and marks the point where accountants have triumphed over customer care. Only their diehard apologists cannot see that.

I still cannot get over the contradiction as Tirilej pointed out whereby the excuse offered for removal of flushing was 'gave our CS too much work' and yet suddenly (when the accountants say so) it becomes cost-effective to give them the task of RG which was hitherto automated. <sniffing the air, exclaims "I love the smell of fertilizer in the morning!">

 

[Harry_BKK]

We can always dig deeper into this RG stuff and find more things which for me shows the questionable/debatable or maybe better said the "only as little as needed is done" stance 32RED is taking.

- OC provision 3.5.4, paragraph 3 - see screenshot 1

Nowhere on 32RED's RG pages is that stated. Surely the UKGC wording says "should", hence not a "must" and it is not done.

EM has that on their RG pages, see screenshot 2.

- What I also find quite questionable is the last sentence on the RG page of 32RED, see screenshot 3

It appears to the player that he can still have a few last punts/bets/spins as long as the SE has not been activated / the signed SE form returned to 32RED as bets/spins done before the activation will not be cancelled. This is comparable to telling a drunk at the check-in into a clinic: "oh well, you might as well have a few last drinks"

I can post more screenshots of similar things but will let these suffice for now.

Screenshot 1



Screenshot 2



Screenshot 3

 

[nutnut]

This thread is comedy gold, any remote seriousness at the start is gone. I know i shouldn't laugh but we might as well blame 32red for the iraq war invasion.

 

[Harry_BKK]

This thread is comedy gold, any remote seriousness at the start is gone. I know i shouldn't laugh but we might as well blame 32red for the iraq war invasion.

What brings you to that conclusion? I don't see any lost seriousness, gambling problems are at any time a serious issue.

 

[mimi26]

This thread is comedy gold, any remote seriousness at the start is gone. I know i shouldn't laugh but we might as well blame 32red for the iraq war invasion.

What a strange sense of humour

 

[paul7388]

This thread is comedy gold, any remote seriousness at the start is gone. I know i shouldn't laugh but we might as well blame 32red for the iraq war invasion.

Lol its a thread that should have died after a few pages. But like yourself I have to keep reading it to see whats getting added next.

And theres nothing new getting added. Everything getting posted was posted in first pages.

Like you said any serious points are now lost in the constant repeating of same points.

Its already been explained that you can TAB right away for 6 weeks by phoning them.

If someone seriously needs help and thinks im going to gamble everything and lose my whole life if I cant SE from every casino right away then add a software to our pcs that block all gambling sites and get internet provider to block them as well.

Seriously if someone was serious about never having anything to do with gambling sites they would get them all blocked.

But reading some of the comments about addicts etc. not just gambling addicts but other types getting added to the thread is just wrong.

Where do we go next. Does a mum sue the doctor as her heroin addict son has went to doctor for help . Doctor says he will get him in rehab but will take a few days. So next day he hits up and overdoses and dies. The mum then blames doctor as son told him he needed help and doctor could not give it instantly.

Sorry but only reason this thread is going so long is not because of 32REDS morally wrong removal of easier SE. That was discussed in 1 page.

Look at all 32RED posts and you will see its the same names every time that jump on anything anti 32RED. Its only going on so long as certain members have a personal agenda against the casino. It can be denied allyou want but reading other threads its clear to see.

 

[mimi26]

Lol its a thread that should have died after a few pages. But like yourself I have to keep reading it to see whats getting added next.

And theres nothing new getting added. Everything getting posted was posted in first pages.

Like you said any serious points are now lost in the constant repeating of same points.

Its already been explained that you can TAB right away for 6 weeks by phoning them.

If someone seriously needs help and thinks im going to gamble everything and lose my whole life if I cant SE from every casino right away then add a software to our pcs that block all gambling sites and get internet provider to block them as well.

Seriously if someone was serious about never having anything to do with gambling sites they would get them all blocked.

But reading some of the comments about addicts etc. not just gambling addicts but other types getting added to the thread is just wrong.

Where do we go next. Does a mum sue the doctor as her heroin addict son has went to doctor for help . Doctor says he will get him in rehab but will take a few days. So next day he hits up and overdoses and dies. The mum then blames doctor as son told him he needed help and doctor could not give it instantly.

Sorry but only reason this thread is going so long is not because of 32REDS morally wrong removal of easier SE. That was discussed in 1 page.

Look at all 32RED posts and you will see its the same name. Its only going wrong as certain members have a personal agenda against the casino. It can be denied allyou want but reading other threads its clear to see.

I could honestly say the same as those who like to pop in and out and make excuses for this type of behaviour from a casino, by for instance trying to argue that making a phonecall to SE or TAB is just as easy as pressing a button.......it isn't

I for one NEVER phone a casino I dont like speaking on the phone and I certainly would not like speaking to someone about something so personal to me, when people get to the point of SE etc they are usually filled with shame having to speak to a total stranger over a phone can and will put people of.

If people want to take a break they should not have to 'discuss' it with anyone, its a personal choice to them for many differing reasons. The problem I see with this whole issue is 32RED not taking the very serious issue of RG serious. I honestly feel they should be called out for this and I would like to see something in place with regards to the 'accreditation' of ALL casino here.

 

[dunover]

Lol its a thread that should have died after a few pages. But like yourself I have to keep reading it to see whats getting added next.

And theres nothing new getting added. Everything getting posted was posted in first pages.

Like you said any serious points are now lost in the constant repeating of same points.

Its already been explained that you can TAB right away for 6 weeks by phoning them.

If someone seriously needs help and thinks im going to gamble everything and lose my whole life if I cant SE from every casino right away then add a software to our pcs that block all gambling sites and get internet provider to block them as well.

Seriously if someone was serious about never having anything to do with gambling sites they would get them all blocked.

But reading some of the comments about addicts etc. not just gambling addicts but other types getting added to the thread is just wrong.

Where do we go next. Does a mum sue the doctor as her heroin addict son has went to doctor for help . Doctor says he will get him in rehab but will take a few days. So next day he hits up and overdoses and dies. The mum then blames doctor as son told him he needed help and doctor could not give it instantly.

Sorry but only reason this thread is going so long is not because of 32REDS morally wrong removal of easier SE. That was discussed in 1 page.

Look at all 32RED posts and you will see its the same names every time that jump on anything anti 32RED. Its only going on so long as certain members have a personal agenda against the casino. It can be denied allyou want but reading other threads its clear to see.

Well, who provokes these threads? Ermmm. let me see...ah!! That would be 32red themselves, for their customer unfriendly actions! Of course, should we debate these and not lie down unquestioningly like good little sycophants then of course we have an 'agenda'! Brilliant! Especially when we could equally accuse the apologists of having an agenda too.

 

[paul7388]

I could honestly say the same as those who like to pop in and out and make excuses for this type of behaviour from a casino, by for instance trying to argue that making a phonecall to SE or TAB is just as easy as pressing a button.......it isn't

I for one NEVER phone a casino I dont like speaking on the phone and I certainly would not like speaking to someone about something so personal to me, when people get to the point of SE etc they are usually filled with shame having to speak to a total stranger over a phone can and will put people of.

If people want to take a break they should not have to 'discuss' it with anyone, its a personal choice to them for many differing reasons. The problem I see with this whole issue is 32RED not taking the very serious issue of RG serious. I honestly feel they should be called out for this and I would like to see something in place with regards to the 'accreditation' of ALL casino here.

If someone was totally desperate then yes they would phone.

And if you actually bothered to read what I posted earlier which clearly you cant have.

I have never made excuses for them. I said it was wrong myself. The rest of the stuff was to show that its still possible to TAB if you really wanted too. And someone that wants to stop playing back a withdrawal and knows they will when they are drunk etc. can phone and stop it happening no shame in it.

But thanks your post backs up what I posted. The reason the thread is going so long is not because of issues. Its because of personal agendas. To say people are arguing a point they aren't clearly shows people are so hell bent on making posts about 32RED they don't bother to even read what others have posted properly.

 

[dionysus]

A lot of members have posted and staff but hope too Bryan when he's had the chance to thoroughly go through it all will add his opinion.
I agree with some members and generally respect dissenting opinions but definitely respect his (whether it's similar or dissimilar) as he's 'old hat' in these areas with insight many of us don't have

I'll report my own post and maybe he'll add.

 

[nutnut]

paul7388 is correct, it's simply gone beyond the issue and just a personal agenda for some posters, almost verging on a obsession with way too much time on their hands.

Given these same people have deleted their accounts, that should be enough of a point made, to keep going on and now reading stories of addicts, i don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[mimi26]

If someone was totally desperate then yes they would phone.

And if you actually bothered to read what I posted earlier which clearly you cant have.

I have never made excuses for them. I said it was wrong myself. The rest of the stuff was to show that its still possible to TAB if you really wanted too. And someone that wants to stop playing back a withdrawal and knows they will when they are drunk etc. can phone and stop it happening no shame in it.

But thanks your post backs up what I posted. The reason the thread is going so long is not because of issues. Its because of personal agendas. To say people are arguing a point they aren't clearly shows people are so hell bent on making posts about 32RED they don't bother to even read what others have posted properly.

I did read thanks, you said it was wrong .......followed by you can just phone them up and do it, that to me is an apologist stance, at the end of the day its a thread people are discussing, I have no agenda against 32red I still play there, it does not mean I have to stay 'loyal' In my opinion of them it also does not mean I have to call people out on imaginary agendas. At the end of the day if you dont like a thread you just dont click on it.

 

[paul7388]

I did read thanks, you said it was wrong .......followed by you can just phone them up and do it, that to me is an apologist stance, at the end of the day its a thread people are discussing, I have no agenda against 32red I still play there, it does not mean I have to stay 'loyal' In my opinion of them it also does not mean I have to call people out on imaginary agendas. At the end of the day if you dont like a thread you just dont click on it.

Point out the bit where I said you had a personal agenda about them.

Go back and read the 32RED posts from last 2 years and you will see exactly who the people are that cannot wait to get a dig in against the casino whether the casino is wrong. That im afraid is a personal agenda.

 

[Harry_BKK]

paul7388 is correct, it's simply gone beyond the issue and just a personal agenda for some posters, almost verging on a obsession with way too much time on their hands.

Given these same people have deleted their accounts, that should be enough of a point made, to keep going on and now reading stories of addicts, i don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Why do you keep saying this is a personal agenda??? It is not.

Gambling addiction and RG regulations are not a personal agenda, period.

It has taken more than a decade to get proper RG tools "forced" onto online casino operators, they are still far from perfect, nor comprehensive. The central SE database system that will be introduced in the UK in 2017 will be a big step towards that although it is only one country but it will be a start and others will follow.

One of the most reputable brands then goes and degrades it to the absolute minimum. I think they fully deserve the flak they are getting and that is not coming just from me or dunover and a few more members, some of the most reputable and senior CM members have also expressed their discontent/concerns in this thread .

Later is became clear that another operator, Everymatrix, have shown just as much negligence in this respect and they have been added to this discussion as well as been reported to the UKGC.

Or do you think Bryan would not have closed this thread long time ago if it would have been a personal agenda. He read the thread a week ago and hasn't taken any action. Why? Because "Responsible Gaming" is important!! It can never be a personal agenda.

 

[dionysus]

Why do you keep saying this is a personal agenda??? It is not.

Gambling addiction and RG regulations are not a personal agenda, period.

It has taken more than a decade to get proper RG tools "forced" onto online casino operators, they are still far from perfect, nor comprehensive. The central SE database system that will be introduced in the UK in 2017 will be a big step towards that although it is only one country but it will be a start and others will follow.

One of the most reputable brands then goes and degrades it to the absolute minimum. I think they fully deserve the flak they are getting and that is not coming just from me or dunover and a few more members, some of the most reputable and senior CM members have also expressed their discontent/concerns in this thread .

Later is became clear that another operator, Everymatrix, have shown just as much negligence in this respect and they have been added to this discussion as well as been reported to the UKGC.

Or do you think Bryan would not have closed this thread long time ago if it would have been a personal agenda. He read the thread a week ago and hasn't taken any action. Why? Because "Responsible Gaming" is important!! It can never be a personal agenda.

Or well, he hasn't had time to properly scour the thread having come back from vacation or reached out to the casino. He hasn't exactly condemned them either.
Hopefully, when able, he'll add his bit.