This 'n That about Poker

Who do you consider to be the 10 best live poker players in the world today?

  • Phil Ivey

    Votes: 12 60.0%
  • John Juanda

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • Patrick Antonius

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Tom Dwan

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • J.C. Tran

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Erick Lindgren

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • Jeff Lisandro

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Daniel Negreanu

    Votes: 13 65.0%
  • Phil Hellmuth

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Allen Cunningham

    Votes: 6 30.0%
  • Ted Forrest

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Peter Eastgate

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Huck Seed

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • Robert Mizrachi

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Scotty Nguyen

    Votes: 9 45.0%
  • Jesus Ferguson

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Mark Seif

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Layne Flack

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Greg Raymer

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • Kenny Tran

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Gus Hansen

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Bertrand Grospellier

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Antonio Esfandiari

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Scott Fischman

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Annette Obrestad

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Josh Arieh

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jason Bonomo

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Carlose Mortensen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Joe Hachem

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Todd Brunson

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Brandon Cantu

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Nenad Medic

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Jeff Madsen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Vitaly Lunkin

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Mike Matusow

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Freddy Deeb

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Kathy Liebert

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Ivan Demidov

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Roland De Wolfe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Alexander Kravchenko

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Kirk Morrison

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Doyle Brunson

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Jennifer Harman

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Lyle Berman

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sam Farha

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • Barry Greenstein

    Votes: 6 30.0%
  • T.J. Cloutier

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Hevad Khan

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Joe Sebok

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other...

    Votes: 3 15.0%

  • Total voters
    20

johnsteed

Dormant Account
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Location
N/A
***



Hello fellow forum members! :)




I just had some random thoughts about online poker, and poker on TV as well.



I've been playing online poker, over the past couple of years (at least steadily, because I played a bit in years way back when), and I find that the competition is fierce. There aren't as many "donks" as there were in past years, and you have to be really sharp to come out ahead.



I've read quite a few poker books, like Super System 1-2, Harrington on Hold'em, Cash Games, The Theory of Poker, The Poker Mindset, and Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. I find that Super System and Phil Gordon's books are the best to start off with, but the David Sklansky and Dan Harrington books are far more in-depth or precise with theirs teachings/theories/methods.



There's a point at which - I found - that I've done much better, to just play the games that I'm most comfortable with. The books are great to go by, but in the long run, figuring-out which approach works best for me has proven to be more enjoyable and effective. I think about my online play (although I'm much better in a live game), and it's infinitely better than where I was at this point last year. I've played in so many sit&go tournaments, heads-up matches, cash games (where I really suck!), and of course, free rolls, that I was bound to improve sooner or later.



I'm a pretty good tournament player, and although they're just free rolls, I usually make my way deep into the Pokerstars tournaments, and prior to that, the PrimaPoker free rolls; although these days they've been greatly reduced. I also do well at 5-seated sit&go NLTH tournaments, and find them to be incredible fun, and VERY rewarding if you have the patience to wait for good hands when you're not out-of-position, and wait long enough to get into the top-3 so as not to be left out of the money.



I allow myself 20 tournaments per day, and record where I finished in the tournament, how much I won/lost, and if I finished-out of the money. I find when I play too tired, or when I'm on tilt, I'm no longer capable of making any sound decisions. I no longer play at multiple-tables at once, because I need to focus on what the other players are doing, and doing this at more than one table, has watered-down my effectiveness. I'll never be Tom Dwan, Hevad Khan, or Bertrand Grospellier (people who can play 30 tables at a time!), and that okay. I also found that it's easier for me to be patient, because I'll play slots at various MG casinos, generally playing low bets, so I have a distraction which is great because I won't get too antsy to get involved with an average hand. At the same time, it probably has helped my slot-play as well in the long run (thank you wide-screen Samsung monitor).


***


I've played on multiple platforms over the past couple of years (and at 888.com and Paradise Poker back in the day), and each one has it's pluses and minuses.



- I think that Pokerstars is the best site, I feel that the RNG is the best because it doesn't feel like there are too many situations where I go bust when I feel that I've got the best hand. There's a huge field of players, with lots of "donks" at the minimum buy-ins, more so than at any PrimaPoker site. I feel that my money is safe there. There are some negatives though, the design is terrible. It's really ugly. It makes a mid-60s hospital look visually stunning by comparison. I don't like the table options. When registering for a tournament, the registration for tournaments screen (before you click to get in) is constantly moving-up, so you have to click fast.



Old Attachment (Invalid)
Beautiful scenary... :puke: It's like hurling this morning's cream soup...​



- I think that Full-Tilt is a close second, but may very well be on par also. I'm not a fan of the layout here either, but I feel that my money is safe, again, I like the RNG (which is VERY important to me), the competition is said to be soft (but I've not seen that... yet), the promotions are pretty good, and I'll be making more deposits there in the future (should I go bust). There are a ton of great tournaments here, similar to PokerStars.



- PrimaPoker (SpinPalace/GamingClub/32red/PokerTime/Roxy/PokerShare/Crazy) for me, has the best layout/design of the major poker sites. I like that they don't use characters for people, they keep it simple. I also prefer the tiled-screens, which aren't very nice to look at, but are small, and great for those who like to play at more than one table at once (I can fit as many as 36 at once on my screen (!). I absolutely hate the RNG here, because all too often, there are too many "coolers" (situations where you can't fold, because your hand is just too good, but so is the other guys). Depending on the site, you're likely not going to find as much action at these sites, as you would with a PokerStars. I also find that players here are really good, because the field isn't as big. There are a lot of players from Norway, Sweden, Finland, which are countries known for their great poker players (reckless/dangerous/every hand is quickly played).


- PartyGaming was a site I always felt would be great (from all of their TV spots), but there have been too many issues with non-payments, ect. I did okay there, when I first started, and I felt that the site's design was fair (similar but a bit better than PokerStars). I no longer go there, for reasons already mentioned. You'd think a site that has so many advertisements, TV tournaments, and good backing, would be so much better than they are... but it's not very good.



- Betfair is pretty good, although I've not played their much (just a couple of small deposits made there last year). Overall, I like the site's design, the tournaments are pretty good, and the options are also fair-good (not far behind PrimaPoker).



- Ultimate Bet/Absolute Poker will hopefully rise-from-the-ashes. I would have put them in the same league as Full-Tilt or PokerStars (with the same boring layout/design), but there's just too much prior turmoil to ignore. Personally, I think that whatever indefensible mistakes that have happened there in the past (reading people's whole cards), won't happen again.



- Interpoker in my mind, has the 2nd best design behind PrimaPoker. The tournaments are so-so, the competition is relatively fair (which is good), and your money is safe as safe can be. It reminds me a bit of the PlayTech poker rooms (which are nice, but the characters are limited), but the RNG for me, falls somewhere between PokerStars and Prima.


***



Watching hours up hours upon hours upon hours of poker on YouTube, I truly wonder who the best player in the world really is.



The generally feeling, is that Phil Ivey is the man. And if it's not him, Tom Dwan is right there, and if it's not him it's got to be Patrick Antonius. What about Phil Hellmuth and his 11 WSOP bracelets, surely he must be the best?



Just for fun, I've decided to make a Top-40 list of who I perceive as being the best players in the world today. Today, would be today, but also over the past few seasons up until now. I'm not going back to the perception of '75, or even '01, I'm talking about these days.





"Top-40 Poker Stars and Up-'N-Comers"





1) Phil Ivey - he finally brought his "+A" game this year



2) John Juanda - always underrated and under-appreciated



3) Patrick Antonius - maybe the best and luckiest cash game player



4) Tom Dwan - online freak and prodigy



5) J.C. Tran - a couple of years ago, he was the best unknown player



6) Erick Lindgren - best tournament player in '08



7) Jeff Lisandro - best thus far in '09 WSOP, waiting on Ivey



8) Daniel Negreanu - could be the best if he'd quit talking so much



9) Phil Hellmuth - not given enough respect even if he's just a NLTH GOD!



10) Allen Cunningham - like Juanda, completely underrated and very steady



11) Ted Forrest - great all around player, tournament and cash games



12) Peter Eastgate - not a fluke, maybe the next Chip Reese



13) Huck Seed - lovable gentle giant is very consistent and undervalued



14) Robert Mizrachi - "goon" but very profitable player



15) Scotty Nguyen - maybe the best "drunk" player; HORSE 2008 winner



16) Jesus Ferguson - overrated by some, but great tournament player



17) Mark Seif - also underrated, although started to drop off the map



18) Layne Flack - always does well, just not on TV



19) Greg Raymer - generally goes deep in tournaments and very consistent



20) Kenny Tran - a bit too egotistical, but still strong





Old Attachment (Invalid)
At one time, voted as one of the sexiest people alive.




21) Gus Hansen - where has Gus been this year (?) always dangerous



22) Bertrand Grospellier - online wiz, StarCraft wiz, moving up fast



23) Antonio Esfandiari - the "Magician" is starting to get a little more serious



24) Scott Fischman - the best member from "The Crew"



25) Annette Obrestad - crazy player, and most certainly great



26) Josh Arieh - unnoticeable, but quietly effective



27) Jason Bonomo - egotistical online player who's great in tournaments



28) Carlos Mortensen - always dangerous



29) Joe Hachem - great tournament player, like Jesus and Raymer



30) Todd Brunson - looks drunk, but could be in the Top-5 if he shaped-up



31) Brandon Cantu - like Bonomo, egotistical and great (seems lazy)



32) Nenad Medic - a rock



33) Jeff Madsen - looks like an idiot/high poker IQ though



34) Vitaly Lunkin - this guy came out of nowhere, already making a mark



35) Mike Matusow - The Mouth always seem to go deep at the WSOP



36) Freddy Deeb - Great tournament and cash player (still)



37) Kathy Liebert - annoying, but ultra-good tournament player



38) Ivan Demidov - likely the best Russian player (who should be higher)



39) Roland De Wolfe - maybe I also have him ranked too low



40) Alexander Kravchenko - another Russian great



The next person would have been "Kirk Morrison", the guy who disappeared from poker for several years, but who should have been much more renowned than he currently is.



I didn't include other notable players such as Lyle Berman, Jennifer Harman (greatest woman player ever), Barry Greenstein, T.J. Cloutier, Doyle Brunson, Bobby Baldwin, and a bunch of others, because either they're not playing as much, they generally just play the big non-televised cash games, or they're just not doing very well these days, although they are still most certainly relevant. There's no question that Doyle Brunson is a greater player than arguably anyone on the list, but just not so over the past few years. I also didn't include Eli Elezra, David Benyamine, and Sam Farha, who could all easily make the list, because they're big cash game players, but we really don't know how well they're running these days (although we could all guess that they're doing very well).




Most entertaining players




1) Tony G - When he's talking he cracks me up, especially when he knocks-out Ralph Perry and says "Go back to Russia!", or bluffs Surinder Sunar in Paris "You gotta like it, it's a nice bet".



Old Attachment (Invalid)
"On your bike... Go back to Russia!"​


2) Daniel Negreanu - For being able to read people so well, although I would probably benefit him for keeping quiet, because I've got this feeling that Phil Ivey has that same ability and that's why he's so good.


3) Gus Hansen - I like it when Gus goes against the grain of wisdom, and just does his thing. Like the time that he went for something like 14 straight hands without a loss and knocked-off The Poker Brat.


4) Todd Brunson - He's not exciting, he looks like a drunken a-hole, but that's the fun part for me. Looking half-baked, and throwing chips in on High Stakes Poker as if it's poker change, just cracks-me-up. He's much greater than people give him credit for being.


5) Phil Hellmuth - I suppose he could also be number #1, it's just that he always does his thing, so I guess the world is spoiled. I liked it the most, when he got into it with Sheiky on Poker After Dark, calling for the producer Maury, and going awol... great TV!


6) Mike Matusow - For his meltdowns, for going after Greg Raymer (who's like the nicest guy in the world AND a greater tournament player than even Mike is). Again, his battle with Sheiky during the 2006 WSOP (which was the best WSOP if you ask me) was a classic.


7) Jamie Gold - Everyone calls him a fluke, lucky, ect. I think that "Ari" Gold's '06 bracelet was very well deserved. He did everything right, despite being recognized as one of the worst bracelet winners of All-Time. I think that he's better than people give him credit for. His highlight would be the entire performance he put on during his '06 run, but if I had to pick one moment, I'd go with his High Stakes Poker appearance, where his K-K ran into Sam Farha's A-A, and he negotiated his way from losing too much money.


8) Huck Seed - He seems to get this recognition for being a really boring guy for TV, but I see him for just the opposite. He seems to be always pulling for the other player, and it doesn't seem like an act. It's strange to see an all-in call, both players standing up, and he's always encouraging the other player to get the card that they need.



Old Attachment (Invalid)
Nice guy.



9) Tom Dwan - Incredibly egocentric, and he never gives off the impression that he ever loses. In particular, I find his trance-posturing to be VERY funny! It's like he has a vibrator in his pants, and he's getting off or something. What is that? I guess it works, but...


10) Sam Farha - He's always trying to steal the show, but he always makes High Stakes Poker exciting with his high raises. He can't get enough TV time I guess.



Old Attachment (Invalid)
"Poker is fun/For every-one/Except my opponents/Who shoulda practiced avoidance/They ain't big proponents/​
In thinkin' not just in the moment/But the possible future problems/Sometimes comes tough to solve them!"



Honorable mention goes to Prahlad Friedman and the Jeff Lisandro accusation mix-up back in the '06 WSOP! "Poker is fun/For every-one/Except my opponents/Who shoulda practiced avoidance/They ain't big proponents/In thinkin' not just in the moment/But the possible future problems/Sometimes comes tough to solve them!"



Thank you for reading.



Steed


***
 
Last edited:
As Always Great Read:thumbsup:


Going to add one of my favorites who has fallen off the earth, not really as he is a local resident of Brentwood,TN. (not Tupelo,lol)

BEST NAME

1.Chris Moneymaker
 
***


NASHVEGAS


BEST NAME

1.Chris Moneymaker



If I made a list of my favorite players, I'd put Moneymaker near the top (not necessarily for his style of play but for who he is), and yes, the name is clearly #1. Amarillo Slim, Doyle Brunson, Chip Reese, Jamie Gold are pretty good names too, but yes, Moneymaker, because if his name wasn't Moneymaker, poker surely wouldn't be where it is today.



I could write an essay, about how Moneymaker has run into a lot of bad luck in the tournaments, since his WSOP '03 victory. I keep reading articles about how he's this big fluke, but I just don't see it. He claims that he does relatively well on the internet and in live cash games, and he's never been accused of being a liar. He seems like a very honest guy. I wouldn't put him in the same class as the players that I've mentioned, but is he worse than a Vanessa Rousso (I can't stand her interviews), a Robert Varkonyi (MIT), Beth Shak, Mimi Tran (Barry Greenstein prodigy), or maybe even a Bill Chen (a math GOD)? They're not in the upper-tier, but they're capable enough to maybe steal the odd tournament (and Rousso would have to steal one because I just can't fathom how on earth she makes a profit).



One day, I hope he could win another bracelet in any other WSOP, TV, or Poker Tour event, just so people quit knocking him so much.



Personally, I think anyone who's won a WSOP since '03, has deserved it. People always criticize Gold, Jerry Yang, and Moneymaker, but they didn't just get good cards, they played the field well enough (with good enough luck). You can't take the bracelets away from any of them.



Steed



***
 
great posts

i would have to say my favorite player is sam farha i love his coolness to the game -i play like that but he by far has the upperhand against heads up situation.
second has to be daniel negranau-love the way he plays but your right he talks too much during play
worst player and attitude is kathy liebert she should not even be playing - i think she is rude player and i actually played with her at belagio couple months ago -and she does the same thing yapp yapp yapp about nothin.
any ways great posts we need more poker talk in here
tat00
 
***

tat00

i would have to say my favorite player is sam farha i love his coolness to the game -i play like that but he by far has the upperhand against heads up situation.
second has to be daniel negranau-love the way he plays but your right he talks too much during play
worst player and attitude is kathy liebert she should not even be playing - i think she is rude player and i actually played with her at belagio couple months ago -and she does the same thing yapp yapp yapp about nothin.



Thank you. :)



For the most part, my favorite player is Daniel Negreanu. I think that he's an extraordinarily talented poker player, and that's not just NLTH, rather, every game. He's become a greater cash player these days (always in the high stakes game over in Bobby's Room at the Belagio), and has really done not much of anything on TV over the past couple of years. I know that he finished 2nd in one of the WSOP events this year, but his other TV spots haven't been so good. Whenever I seem him on High Stakes Poker, he's running really bad, and he's also called the flop with questionable cards.



He tends to show off too much, with his card-reading skills, which he's the best at, but he's giving too much away each hand. Sure, he may in fact have command of the table, but he too often makes calls even when he knows he's not going to win, just to see if his read was right (which it usually is). Why he does that, I do not know! :confused: I still feel that - as with someone like Todd Brunson (who needs to clean-up in general) - if he devoted himself to the tournaments like the WSOP, he could win a ton of bracelets. I'm sure most people feel that he could do it. If Negreanu is on his game, I'm not so sure that someone like an Ivey, a Dwan, or whoever else, can be better. He just doesn't seem to commit himself enough to being serious about winning these days. And, he's just not as lucky as the Antonius, Eastgate, Dwan, and Ivey group.



He needs to slow down on the dreams of making the PGA, becoming the greatest Wii tennis player of all-time, continuously making prop bets, and focusing too much on whatever other game that's got his attention.


As far as Kathy Liebert goes, I know what you're talking about. She was on TV at a table with Todd Brunson and a bunch of other pros, and she went on and on how there weren't any good poker books out there, and that the world doesn't need another one. "Um, that's super Kathy, but that's Todd... and his father is Doyle, as in... Doyle Brunson. Ah... maybe you didn't know, but he wrote 2 famous books on the subject of poker. Do you think it would be a good idea to just shut-up now". If you've seen it, you'd know that Todd looked as though he wanted to beat the snot out of her. Well... he's just like that anyway.



She coaches many people as well, with James Woods being the most famous one. I would have to think that they're talking over one another all the time. She is a great player though, because she consistently finishes in the money. Annoying? Absolutely. Great, yeah. I've seen her win more on TV than Jennifer Harmon. And I might be wrong on this one, but I believe that Liebert has the most tournament winnings (poker tour/WSOP/other events) by a female player in the history of poker. Harmon is easily regarded as a greater cash player though.



Steed


***
 
***


One last thing about Liebert, come to think of it, I started to think that she really isn't appreciated as a player, if I factored-in how much money she's won over the past several years, how consistent she's been at finishing in the money, and that she's pretty good at a variety of poker games not just a specialist at one. She had some spots of TV earlier on during the whole poker craze going back to '03, but really, since '06 or so, you just don't see much of her anymore. :confused:



Part of the problem there I would guess, would be her way of rubbing people the wrong way (i.e. TV producers and the more popular players). When they have Poker After Dark for just the top female players, she's not there? Why on earth, do woman players like Beth Shak, Erica Shoenberg (wow, she's NICE though), Vanessa Rousso, Liz Lieu, Dee Luong, J.J. Lieu, Kristy Gazes, Clonie Gowen, and especially Evelyn Ng (she's friends with all the major poker stars, old pals with Negreanu, but I don't know what's her specialty exactly) get TV spots ahead of Liebert. If you put all of these players together, Kathy Liebert is still likely better than all of them (and probably their poker winnings) combined. No, really.



How about the next wave of players like Lacey Jones, Tiffany Michelle, or Maria Ho (rrrrrrrrrr...), a ton of endorsements, and for doing what exactly, other than all being hot?



I can understand if producers went with Annie Duke (who's been pretty good and completely overrated), Jennifer Harmon (very well respected as a player... never mind that she's a female player), Cyndy Violette (Harmon-lite), or a Barbara Enright, over Liebert, but the groups in the paragraphs above who all haven't really done much individually except some modeling for poker and a few deep runs in tournaments (most likely at trendy L.A. casinos like The Commerce or the Bicycle Casino), really haven't earned the right to be on TV. I guess Liebert isn't easy on the eyes (which shouldn't prevent her because she's good enough, and Tony G isn't exactly hot, or "The Devilfish", or "The Mouth", ect), is annoying (but... so is Mike "The Mouth", "The Poker Brat", Phil Laak & his still hot 50-year-old wife who looks like she's about 35 Jennifer Tilly, ect), and isn't a part of the future (... but neither is Farha, T.J. Cloutier, Howard Lederer, ect). All of those points are valid, but unfair in my opinion. We'll never know what's holding her back exactly.





Steed


***
 
Last edited:
Another great thread, JS!

The live poker scene certainly makes for exciting reading and viewing as the game has developed into such an internationally rivetting spectacle, thanks mainly to the Internet and television with new camera techniques, I would suggest.

To watch ice cool Ivey at the table, or the entertaining if at times irritating Phil Hellmuth, or the professional play of Lissandro and so many other big names in the game is always worthwhile imo.

The impact of the young guns on live tournaments although weaned on the Internet has also been considerable, I think.

Off the top of my head the names Madsen, Eastgate, Mig.com Corwin Mackey, Christian Harder, Isaac Baron, Adam Junglen, Jimmy Fricke, Isaac Haxton, Mike Sowers, Justin Smith all come to mind, and there are many others, whilst Tom Dwan's appetite for risk-taking always makes for edge-of the-seat railbird value.
 
***


Jetset


Off the top of my head the names Madsen, Eastgate, Mig.com Corwin Mackey, Christian Harder, Isaac Baron, Adam Junglen, Jimmy Fricke, Isaac Haxton, Mike Sowers, Justin Smith all come to mind, and there are many others, whilst Tom Dwan's appetite for risk-taking always makes for edge-of the-seat railbird value.



Great post Jetset! :thumbsup:



Solid names you mentioned there, and revealing to me that you must be a big fan of poker, because guys like Christian Harder, Adam Junglen, and Isaac Haxton aren't exactly household poker names. I spent a few weeks reading threads, and listening to interviews over at "PocketFives.com" last year, and still occasionally pop by once in a blue moon. The names that pop-up the most for me are/were "AJKHoosier1" (Alex Kamberis), "charder" (Christian Harder), and "shaundeeb". All consistently terrific online players, who could all potentially become great live players as well, down the road. The fact that someone like "shaundeeb" has been near-or-at-the-top of most online poker rankings for the past couple of years, is nothing short of amazing. The high-volume of games that you have to play, and win, just to stay in the Top-10 rankings, would burn-out most people.



Old Attachment (Invalid)
Jimmy Fricke while NOT playing a hand of "Magic:The Gathering"



You had mentioned Jimmy Fricke, and I always feel for the guy. Too many people take shots at this guy, but as far as I can see, I don't think he's a flash-in-the-pan. I thought he played well against eventual winner Gus Hansen in the Aussie Millions last year (or perhaps it was the year before), and that was after the fact that had won the World Series of Poker Europe 2007 HORSE Event, then becoming the youngest player to ever cash-in at a WSOP event (a record that didn't last long... thank you Annette Obrestad). He can be a bit arrogant sometimes, but then again, he's really young, and aren't literally all online poker prodigies built that way?



About Dwan and Eastgate in particular, aren't they just blessed with good luck? They're both great players already, but they've both run extremely well thus far. Dwan is more exciting to me than Eastgate, but he's also got a little too much Gus Hansen in him, before Gus Hansen got his wings clipped financially a few years back. :oops: He's completely reckless, precise in his readings (though), but I don't think he's had really ran into a run of bad cards yet. That's the great part about Dwan though, he gets everybody's attention, he's fearless or reckless (however one may see it), and there are tons of highs to his game.



Old Attachment (Invalid)
Durrrr...



If there's a telling sign that "durrrr" won't crash-and-burn like Hansen did, I would point to his "Aussie Millions Cash Game Heads-Up Duel" for 2.5 million, versus Patrick Antonius. The amount of times that he made a correct read and folded, with good hands a few times, was spectacular. It would have even made Hellmuth proud. Just goes to show you how uber-lucky Patrik is. :eek:




NOTE - For those who elect to vote for a player, you can select more than one player, and hopefully, you choose up to 10 stars that you feel are the 10-best live players today (not just one).




Steed



***
 
Apart from his sheer guts and opponent reading capabilities, what I like most about Dwan is his fortitude. In the sometimes massive swings in his fortunes, he rarely seems to lose his composure and simply moves on to address the problem.

And as you say, JS, he certainly sets a game alight and can hardly be described as conventional.

As a member of a pre-Internet generation I stand in awe at the way in which these young guns have prospered on the Internet (and I will only digress briefly from your live poker theme in this thread).

Their ability to play several (and in some cases many - I'm thinking Bertrand Grospellier in particular here) tables at once and the speed with which they play constantly cause me to look on with wonder.

But back to live poker - what did you think of the chip leader in the November Nine?

The unpredictability of poker, allied to what must be a decent set of poker skills catapulted 45-year-old Maryland logging company owner Darvin Moon into the lead position in the biggest challenge of all - the WSOP main event.

To achieve that in an entry field of almost six-and-a-half thousand hopefuls was incredible, I thought. It could have the same impact as Chris Moneymaker coming out of nowhere (and the Internet) in 2003!

He came across to me like a decent, modest guy himself more than a little surprised at his success, and with around a quarter of the chips in his stack I hope he will go even further in the November grand finale.
 
***


Jetset


As a member of a pre-Internet generation I stand in awe at the way in which these young guns have prospered on the Internet (and I will only digress briefly from your live poker theme in this thread).



Not at all, I love where you're going with this. I can only think of maybe a Stu Ungar as being another player who could read the situation that clearly, and completely throw his opponents off balance, enough to the point where no one wants to get into a pot where they aren't certain that they've got the better hand; perhaps folding after the flop unless they have the nuts. I think that Hansen was a bit like this now but more so before, and I most certainly think that Dwan is precisely that type of a player. It's seems that only the Nordic god Patrik Antonius is the only type of match-up that stops him in his tracks. Our God already gave Antonius Brad Pitt/godlike beauty, but did he have to pull all the stops on this guy? Is he the son of Odin? Whatever he is, he's not mortal.



Old Attachment (Invalid)
"All hail Antonius!!!"



Their ability to play several (and in some cases many - I'm thinking Bertrand Grospellier in particular here) tables at once and the speed with which they play constantly cause me to look on with wonder.



Grospellier was a StarCraft pro out here in South Korea (and I can't imagine how much extra money he picked-up playing side-games). I caught him on TV several years back (when he had pink hair), then he sort of fell off the radar, but I wonder if he did that on purpose so he wouldn't be recognized as being the Top StarCraft player out here (think: "The Color of Money"). StarCraft is on TV here, literally each and every day.



I can't imagine how his brain doesn't fry, after playing 62 hands at once for over an hour (if I'm reading this correctly... and I think I am!). Dwan is not too shabby himself, but not in that ballpark.



***



But back to live poker - what did you think of the chip leader in the November Nine?



I love Ivey's chances, much more that I liked Cheeno Rheem's chances last year (when most sites were predicting that it was going to be a cake-walk for David). I'm not necessarily rooting for Ivey though. Darvin Moon seems to be this year's Dennis Philips, although Philips really took to being in the spotlight last year, which I can't say is the same for Moon this year. Everyone loves the Average Joe who comes out of nowhere.



Old Attachment (Invalid)
I sure wouldn't want to get the stare down from this guy...​



I believe that if Ivey doesn't win it, I'd go with Steven Begleiter who's sitting in 3rd as of now. He says that he's not scared of Ivey, and has played against him before (I was thinking of going with Jeff Shulman, but I'm passing on that platter).



As far as there being a "November Nine", I'm not overly crazy about it. I was okay with the way they'd done it prior to '08 (the old format of just playing through without the giant gap). If Moon was running hot in July, who's to say that his luck is still there come November? I would guess that players are no longer in a groove, and may tend to over-prepare and over-think what they're going to do over a few months of time. It must mess them up.



Who are you going with Jetset (or anyone)? I know that you're cheering for Moon, but who's your pick to win it all?



Steed

***
 
The heart goes with Moon, because it's always great to see an ordinary sort of guy come out of nowhere and surprise the crowd (not something the bookies like, I'm sure!)

But the head tells me that Ivey must be in with a more-than-decent chance and I have huge respect for his abilities both online and live.

That said, I think your pick of ex-Merril Lynch exec Begleiter is a shrewd one that could well come off.

I'm not sure a Jeff Shulman win would go down too well with Harrah's, given his much publicised comments about dealing with them...but that would generate some great news opportunities!

Like you, the Fearsome Finn (Antonius) also impresses me, and I have been following his infrequent clashes with durrr in the 50 000 hand Dwan million dollar plus Challenge, where I think they're almost at the halfway mark now. He has taken the lead a couple times already and seems to be a real threat despite Dwan's poker gymnastics!

I'm not a fan of the prolonged break between deciding the final WSOP Main Event table and then bringing them all together again for the grand finale in November, but it seems to have found favour with TV network moguls who appear to be calling the shots.

For players that have survived such a massive entry field and gruelling playing schedule I guess it could constitute an R&R break (although that's the last thing on said TV moguls' minds, I'm sure LOL) I guess someone like Moon could also usefully deploy the time to polish his skills, too.

But by November they're probably out of the unique ME zone and need to get focused and game-ready all over again, and from a railbird's p.o.v. I find that it interrupts the excitement of having the grand denouement contiguous with the actual event.
 
Great post.........
Although I dont agree with the talk to much part about Daniel Negreanu. Thats part of the entertainment.

He is my favorite. Great player,great entertainer and some amazing reads.

Here is a couple of my favorite moments: Amazing :notworthy




 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm a Liebert fan. And I hate the fact that, younger, prettier, more cleaveage, less clothing (which looks really bizarre when the guys are wearing long sleeves, jackets, etc. -- most of us know it's usually cold as a meat locker in a casino), etc. all means more than being a good poker player in TV poker land.

A couple of years ago, they gave her a make over.... fresh hair style, lightened her hair, plastered on some make up, painted the nails, etc. Pppffffffffftttttt.... She is who she is.... I say they should give the woman a break and leave her alone to play poker.
 
***


Jetset


I'm not sure a Jeff Shulman win would go down too well with Harrah's, given his much publicised comments about dealing with them...but that would generate some great news opportunities!


I forgot that Jeff Shulman wants to throw away the bracelet. I was listening to an ESPN Podcast with Phil Gordon & Andrew Feldman, where they were talking about that whole ordeal. I heard though - since that time - that he's going to auction the bracelet off for money for charity should he win. There are some other ideas about what he should do with the bracelet, one of those being giving it to TV's Stephen Colbert. Even if he has issues with who controls the WSOP these days, it'll be a disgrace to the game if he doesn't honor it and the people behind it by keeping the bracelet. If he truly loves the game as much as he wants everyone to think he does, why taint it like that?


***


WonderingSpirit



Great post.........
Although I dont agree with the talk to much part about Daniel Negreanu. Thats part of the entertainment.

He is my favorite. Great player,great entertainer and some amazing reads.

Here is a couple of my favorite moments: Amazing



Thank you! :) Negreanu is also my favorite player, but I'm always disappointed whenever he's knocked-out of the earlier rounds for the past several years at the WSOP Main Event. It seems like he just shows up to the Main Event, he makes his appearance, and doesn't really seem to come off as though he's committing himself enough to go the distance (like he wants to wrap-it-up so he can get into the big side games). I see "The Mouth" or "The Poker Brat" hurtin' whenever they get knocked-out, and I guess I can see how badly they really wanted it. I could be wrong about Negreanu, but it's like he's having WAY too much fun (and I'm not saying he should be angry or crying either :D ). As a fan, I just want him the win the big one again. I want him to be the clear #1 player in the world, because he's just THAT good. How everyone always talks about Ivey being the Tiger Woods of poker, I think Negreanu could be in that spot instead.



If you watch him back in the late '90s, he was much more dangerous because a was a bit more low key (although he was still having fun way back when). I can't argue with your point about him being entertaining though... he most certainly is that.



The YouTube clips that you've posted are probably his best moments at the WSOP over the past few years. :thumbsup: I think it's the same year, when he's sitting next to that annoying former card-dealer, when he starts singing "Eye of the Tiger" back at Daniel. He made a great fold that time, when he gave up his straight.



Steed


***
 
IMHO:

Best player not on that list:

Kido Pham - the guy is incredible, can play against anyone, despite being a part-timer.

Most over-rated on the list: Tom Dwan - can't stand his play or his personality. Anyone can raise with J7 offsuit. Thinks way too much of himself.
 
***


Mousey


I'm a Liebert fan. And I hate the fact that, younger, prettier, more cleaveage, less clothing (which looks really bizarre when the guys are wearing long sleeves, jackets, etc. -- most of us know it's usually cold as a meat locker in a casino), etc. all means more than being a good poker player in TV poker land.



Hmmm, you've got me thinking. Maybe in all future WSOP Main Events, the losers must take off all of their clothes. Either change the format a little bit, or add a spicy game of Strip Poker with a $5,000 buy-in. They can do it all by ESPN 'pay-per-view', $119 a pop! I can see it now...




Old Attachment (Invalid)

Norman Chad alongside Lon McEachern...



""Wow ladies & gentleman, can you believe that both Greg Raymer AND Kathy Liebert are calling Ray Romano's all-in. Romano's got them crushed with the full house, and he has more than enough chips... yep... he's got them both covered. The 'Everybody Loves Raymond' star takes down a big pot, with a wheelbarrow full of clothes. You don't see this everyday! Oh boy Lon, Raymer also has to hand over the '04 Main Event bracelet... and his new watch... no, not the glasses too... Fossilman is steaming now"


Old Attachment (Invalid)Old Attachment (Invalid)Old Attachment (Invalid)




***



Liebert is better than 99.5% of the other female poker players (with the exception being Harmon), so personally, she's so good that she can dress however she wants. She consistently wins, she teaches poker, she knows what she's doing. Anyone but Vanessa Rousso. :p




Steed


***
 
Last edited:
***


Jetset


But by November they're probably out of the unique ME zone and need to get focused and game-ready all over again, and from a railbird's p.o.v. I find that it interrupts the excitement of having the grand denouement contiguous with the actual event.



I couldn't let this paragraph go. Jetset, you're the master of writing. I'm giving you 3 shout-outs for using the words "railbird", "denouement", and "contiguous", all in the same sentence. I can only speak for myself, by saying that I promise never to take your eloquent style of writing for granted. The man is a walking-Thesaurus. :notworthy


Like you, I'm very okay with Moon winning it all. :thumbsup:



Steed


***
 
the state of poker

No matter how well you play, some joker will crack your Aces with a 67. I feel Poker is 70 percent luck, 30 percent skill. Unless you play at very high stakes tables, it is just a crapshoot every time.
 
I think a few posts back one of our members expressed the view that Ivey was over-rated, and I have to respond to that out of respect for someone whom I believe is a great poker player.

Here's just a few points to consider:

* The man has seven WSOP winner's bracelets - a feat by any standards - and looks set to win a few more on his considerable form. And he's still in his early thirties.

* He plays a range of poker genres with equal skill and style, and is widely respected by other pros.

* I'm open to correction here, but he's won around $10 million in international live tournaments (in 18 of them the outright winner) including the biggest and best there is - a list as long as your arm.

* He has successfully played almost every online and live poker ace out there at one time or another. Many of them in live cash games that have included wins in the famed Big Game - the $4 000/$8 000 table at the Bellagio. And what about that reputed 16 mill win against Andy Beal playing for "The Corporation"?

*God only knows how much he has accumulated from his frequently successful big money forays into the online cash game nosebleed tables. I would imagine that figure will be in the millions....easily.

* He behaves like a gentleman at the tables - a dangerous gentleman, but modest, courteous with an occasional dash of dry humour. IMO a great role model for young and upcoming aces.

* He's a television fave in those big shows.

* He has coached up-and-coming youngsters in the game.

@cmich77 - you've hit on one of the key debates in global poker - the skill vs. chance issue which has such powerful legal ramifications for the game.

The lawyers, academics and other experts are still wrangling over it amid different court rulings around the planet.:notworthy
 
***



Kenny Lingus


Oh sh#t, I/you forgot Dan Harrington!

If he isn't in the top ten of living poker players, then Rice-a-Roni isn't the San Francisco treat!



You're right, I did forget "Action Dan". I also forgot to include Johnny Chan, and I guess Tom McEvoy (who is suddenly relevant again). :oops: I'm not going to degrade Harrington, and he should be on there.



At the same time, this isn't about "The Top 10 Living Poker Players" Mr. Lingus. :) If I was doing that, wouldn't Doyle Brunson be #1 or #2? Shouldn't Bobby Baldwin be near the top? What about Amarillo Slim? Or Berry Johnston? This list is about who's causing the most noise recently, and over the past few years. It's not perfect - the rankings could surely be different - but I'm okay with the guys I put in the Top-20.



If I had to do this list all over again, I would move Cantu, Grospellier, Sebok, De Wolfe, and Demidov higher than where I put them. I would have even considered other notables like David Pham, Paul Wasicka, Dario Minieri, Gavin Smith, Andy Bloch, Phil Laak, David Oppenheim, Ilari Sahamies, Brian Townsend, Mike Sexton, David Williams, Lee Watkinson, Brad Booth, and Andrew Robl. But the list included 49 people already, and there is the "other" option as well (#50), and people can vote for up to 10 players if they elect to.



I'd also point out, that if we knew exactly how well people were doing in "Bobby's Room", this list could be completely reversed. Greenstein, Harman, even Doyle are all possibly doing better than they've showed in recent tournament play.



Steed


***
 
Last edited:
***


Jetset


I think a few posts back one of our members expressed the view that Ivey was over-rated, and I have to respond to that out of respect for someone whom I believe is a great poker player.

Here's just a few points to consider:

* The man has seven WSOP winner's bracelets - a feat by any standards - and looks set to win a few more on his considerable form. And he's still in his early thirties.

* He plays a range of poker genres with equal skill and style, and is widely respected by other pros.

* I'm open to correction here, but he's won around $10 million in international live tournaments (in 18 of them the outright winner) including the biggest and best there is - a list as long as your arm.

* He has successfully played almost every online and live poker ace out there at one time or another. Many of them in live cash games that have included wins in the famed Big Game - the $4 000/$8 000 table at the Bellagio. And what about that reputed 16 mill win against Andy Beal playing for "The Corporation"?

*God only knows how much he has accumulated from his frequently successful big money forays into the online cash game nosebleed tables. I would imagine that figure will be in the millions....easily.

* He behaves like a gentleman at the tables - a dangerous gentleman, but modest, courteous with an occasional dash of dry humour. IMO a great role model for young and upcoming aces.

* He's a television fave in those big shows.

* He has coached up-and-coming youngsters in the game.

@cmich77 - you've hit on one of the key debates in global poker - the skill vs. chance issue which has such powerful legal ramifications for the game.

The lawyers, academics and other experts are still wrangling over it amid different court rulings around the planet.



Very well said. We have consider that Ivey is still young, and the prime of his career. He seems to be a healthy and competitive guy, I wouldn't doubt it if he stays this good until he's 60. It got me to think about if it bothers Ivey a bit, that guys like Durrrr, Antonius, and the online generation of hopefuls seem to have stolen the headlines from him the past couple of years. Ivey's gloss was starting to come off, until recently.



All I can add to that, is that perhaps the perception (until his possible record setting WSOP performance this year) may be that Ivey doesn't do very well on TV (except in a couple of TV tournaments like the "Monte Carlo Millions" in '05), he looks bored almost all of the time, he doesn't say much (he's like Tim Duncan) so the feeling may be that he tends to be overrated by the announcers. We see Negreanu calling people's hands, and we see Hellmuth making the big lay downs, both entertaining players for different reasons, but except for a few snippets, we've not really seen much of that kind of stuff done by Ivey. At least nothing overly memorable that has been captured on TV. What we don't see, is how well he does when the cameras are turned off, and he's considered to be the most dangerous cash game player in the world (I read once that a very wealthy firm flew him in to recoup some losses in a big high stakes game) .



What the cheerleaders in the press-box have been going on about, is finally coming to fruition at this years WSOP. You have to also consider, that when the players themselves make their personal rankings as to who the best in the world really is, they generally put Ivey at the top. Ivey is an expert at all of the poker games, but, at times, the public only seems to care about No Limit Texas Hold'em. The respect that he's earned, must mean something.



I think next year, he should participate in all HORSE events. Chip Reese was considered to be the greatest HORSE player (which may be the greatest honor achieved in poker), and he often cited that Ivey was the best in his mind. Shouldn't that amount to something?


Negreanu is my favorite player, and I've never been an Ivey fan, but I can recognize his greatness. Twenty years from now, when we look back on this era, I would imagine that Ivey will be viewed as being the best of his generation, and he'll still be running strong then. It reminds me of Sampras vs Agassi. Sampras was great for a long stretch, very consistent, very sound, but when Agassi really got fired-up, I found him to be electric and every bit as dominant. There were just too many years where his focus wasn't where it should have been. Negreanu is much more exciting, but Ivey has been the best thus far. I'm hoping that "Kid Poker" will step up to the plate.



Steed


***
 
My favorite to watch and of skill is Danny Negreanu. Gus Hanson is second, he has this quiet sense of knowing things, where as Danny expresses himself.

What about that boy/girl who wears the scarf? I'm sorry but he bugs the crap out of me!!! I seriously didn't know if he was a boy or girl. Is he still around?

I also think Huck Seed is under rated, I used to think he was high all the time (he might be) but if you really watch him play, he's right up there with the best.

I CANNOT STAND Twan!!! He's a little prick. When he was first invited to play the Head to Head tourny and played with The Brat, he was such an asshole....I thought maybe it was to get under Phils skin, but the next year he was the same way (just not quite as bad)

I also like to watch Sammy just because I like his accent :p You all must know when Moneymaker and Sammy played, that he offered to split the money no matter who won the tourny, (in the bathroom) and Sammy turned him down, hahaha.
 
***


just play

What about that boy/girl who wears the scarf? I'm sorry but he bugs the crap out of me!!! I seriously didn't know if he was a boy or girl. Is he still around?


Great to hear from you! :)


Dario Minieri. It's a boy. Well... a man. He's still around, and he's a renowned internet player. I wasn't overly impressed by all the chips he accumulated so quickly in the '07 WSOP Main Event (or was it in '08 :what: ). He is just reckless, and I don't think he gets a read on players like the other greats are capable of. I think he'll crash and burn in his Ferrari, just like he eventually will at poker. He plays every hand like he's got the nuts. He sure is exciting though! :D



I CANNOT STAND Twan!!! He's a little prick.



I'm not overly crazy about him either. If I have someone I don't care for in particular, it would have to be Theo Tran. He seems like a nice guy in interviews, but when he's playing, he's got this ENORMOUS chip on his shoulder like the world owes him something. Maybe he's more humble in real life, but what I've seen of him thus far... :cool:



Oddly enough, Huck Seed and Gus Hansen used to live together (and Phil Laak was in the picture at one time or another). Either that, or Seed used to teach Hansen, or was it vice versa? :confused: If I had to be best friends with a poker player, I would probably go with Huck. I used to think Negreanu, but he's friends with everyone, so that wouldn't work. Layne Flack seems like a fun guy, but a lot of trouble also. Moneymaker? Yeah, he's a nice guy. It's got to be Huck though. Can you believe that Huck is about 40 years old now? :eek: He looks like a slightly-older college kid.




You all must know when Moneymaker and Sammy played, that he offered to split the money no matter who won the tourny, (in the bathroom) and Sammy turned him down, hahaha.



It's funny seeing Sammy at a final table (not that he isn't a great player or deserving), because I think he ONLY comes to the WSOP for the side games. He's a total cash player. He's great for High Stakes Poker because he'll play any two cards, and raise it up like no one else. I'm still thinking about his battle with Jamie Gold, or how unlucky he was against Antonius.



You want to see unlucky, like the ONLY time you'll ever see Patrik Antonius get the raw end of the deal, is right here courtesy of YouTube.






It's like winning the Lottery 3 weeks in a row. :notworthy



And the reason I'm not crazy about Theo Tran is right here...







Come to think of it, I don't really care for Mike Ngo either... Come to think of it, the Hinkle Bros are really boring winners too, and I don't care for all their mom's air time either. If Jesus wasn't at the final table, I would just as soon blow-it-up.




Steed


***​
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Meister Ratings

Back
Top